Could you give up Heels?

[hiddenheels]

On 12/22/2020 at 10:54 AM, Chorlini said:

Yeah, there's a lot of women who are full of 'I'm so accepting of everyone and everything' talk, but when the time comes to select a mate they go as traditionally as possible. Just look at how brutal women are when it comes to height. If you're a dude shorter then 1m80 you got your work cut out for you on the dating market cause your market value is LOW. You check the average female dating profile and you can't help escape the notion that what they want is only 5% of the male population. And they ALL seem to want that same 5%. Tall, handsome, athletic, no gut, financially well off, high emotional and social intelligence, if you're that dude the world is your oyster. Hell, you might even get your GF to accept to your heels cause they know they got a unicorn and if she drops it, some sister will come along and snap you up in a heartbeat. So yeah, if you do come across a woman who has everything you want in a woman, wants you too (which is already effin' hard as it is in this online dating wasteland), but just not your heels, it might be really hard for some people to say no to that. There's a LOT of lonely single men out there and unicorns are impossible to find. The alternative might be getting old alone with cats or dogs, or settling for a woman who does agree to you wearing heels, but to whom you feel little attraction.

And even on the slim chance you do find what you want, as the guy who gave us the crazy/hot matrix said, any woman can disappear of the scale and reappear on a totally different spot. Maybe she has no objections today, but in a year's time after getting a lot of flak from her girlfriends (girl, that boyfriend of yours with his heels makes you look ridiculous) she might start to object. Always make sure to check out the girlfriends cause they might have more influence on her then you do.

People do change. What is OK now might not be in 10 years. I don't know if it's realistic to make a "do or do not" decision now, because today's actions are not 100% predictors of the future...

[Chorlini]

20 hours ago, hiddenheels said:

People do change. What is OK now might not be in 10 years. I don't know if it's realistic to make a "do or do not" decision now, because today's actions are not 100% predictors of the future...

That is basically what the MGTOW guys say. It's not worth it getting into relations with a woman, because she may be fine with everything now, in 10 years she change her mind, in which case you'll get screwed in the family courts. It makes screening for the right partner even more important then ever, and whether or not she is accepting of heels is even less important. Because what is more important, finding a person who is accepting of heels or finding a person who won't take you out to the cleaners in 10 years time cause she no longer feels the tingle? I want both, many would say, but the overlap of two spheres is usually never that great, making it even harder.

[RonC]

Ok, I'm old I guess.  What are MGTOW guys?

[Cali]

I had to Google it too.

Men Going Their Own Way

[RonC]

Thanks!

 

[hhboots]

I'm fortunate that my spouse is mostly accepting, she is not always happy about what I wear and of course would prefer that I do not wear heels and other feminine clothing at times, but for the most part has accepted me as I am.  However, if I had to make a change like that at this point in my life, it would be very challenging, but I could probably get by without feminine attire for a while, but I would probably not be happy and I would likely slip back into it eventually.  So the answer is no, as many others have said.  So happy that I wouldn't have to make that decision any time soon.

[LuvsStiletto]

On 12/23/2020 at 4:40 PM, RonC said:

Yeah, I just could not imagine going through that whole scene at this point in my life.  No thanks....

Given the current landscape, I think it would be very difficult to find women that actually like heels.  It seems that few want to wear them at all these days.  But I am with you, as if I were single and looking, at this point, I would need to find a woman that still enjoys, and more importantly wears, her heels.  I don't think I could do without that.  I'm not saying that I'd want someone who wore heels daily, but is it really that big of a deal to wear a pair of heels for a couple hours out to dinner?  Sure seems to be these days, though I'm guessing you're finding them!

Covid is certainly putting a damper on things, especially on women wearing heels. Many woman who would normally wear heels to the office, no longer need to actually go to the office, due to Covid. I have worked in an office environment, most of my adult life. One of the things that I enjoyed most, was seeing an almost endless parade of women, walking down the halls, sitting in meetings, at their desks, on their way to the lunch room, wearing their stiletto heels. The sound of the heels clicking on the marble floors, as women pass by, in their 4” heels, was heavenly fuel for me! With office employees mostly working from home these days, the need for women to “dress up” and head to a full day of work at the office, has diminished accordingly. The other factor, is that with so many restaurants closed or working on reduced capacity, in many states, many women who would normally enjoy accessorizing their “date night” dinner outfit with heels, are now grabbing diner-to-go, at the drive thru window, or opting for pizza or an order of chicken chow mein, from an establishment that offers free delivery. I have spoken with many women who normally wear heels, who have taken the stance, that they are not going to get all “dolled-up” with a nice outfit, makeup and heels, to have to stand around in queue, with a mask on, waiting to enter a fine dining establishment, that is only operating at 25 percent capacity! My own girlfriend who loves getting dressed up, mostly so she can wear a nice outfit with heels, is now like, “let’s just eat at home tonight! I don’t feel like doing the whole makeup and heels thing, with Covid going on!” 
 

Prior to Covid, there was no shortage of women who wore heels daily, to work, dinner/night out, etc., in my region. I do think that there are some regions where you are more likely to see women wearing heels, than others (pre-Covid). I live in a densely populated part of the country, so it has always been fairly common to see women in heels, especially in high-end retail environments, offices (financial services, insurance, etc.), fine dining and entertainment venues, such as the symphony, theatre, etc. In my experience, I have always been more likely to frequent establishments that have a higher probability of finding women in heels. The order line at Taco Bell at 2:00 PM on a Tuesday afternoon, in a small rural town, where Taco Bell’s only competition, is the local pizza joint, who’s dining area consists of two booths, one of which is covered with stacks of pre-assembled pizza boxes, is NOT going to be my first pick of places to do heel spotting! Lol If I want to see women in heels, I go to places where women in heels are likely to be, and right now, with Covid, women who normally wear heels, are not really in those places. 

Edited December 31, 2020 by LuvsStiletto

[Chorlini]

On 12/31/2020 at 1:04 AM, LuvsStiletto said:

Covid is certainly putting a damper on things, especially on women wearing heels. Many woman who would normally wear heels to the office, no longer need to actually go to the office, due to Covid. I have worked in an office environment, most of my adult life. One of the things that I enjoyed most, was seeing an almost endless parade of women, walking down the halls, sitting in meetings, at their desks, on their way to the lunch room, wearing their stiletto heels. The sound of the heels clicking on the marble floors, as women pass by, in their 4” heels, was heavenly fuel for me! With office employees mostly working from home these days, the need for women to “dress up” and head to a full day of work at the office, has diminished accordingly. The other factor, is that with so many restaurants closed or working on reduced capacity, in many states, many women who would normally enjoy accessorizing their “date night” dinner outfit with heels, are now grabbing diner-to-go, at the drive thru window, or opting for pizza or an order of chicken chow mein, from an establishment that offers free delivery. I have spoken with many women who normally wear heels, who have taken the stance, that they are not going to get all “dolled-up” with a nice outfit, makeup and heels, to have to stand around in queue, with a mask on, waiting to enter a fine dining establishment, that is only operating at 25 percent capacity! My own girlfriend who loves getting dressed up, mostly so she can wear a nice outfit with heels, is now like, “let’s just eat at home tonight! I don’t feel like doing the whole makeup and heels thing, with Covid going on!” 
 

Prior to Covid, there was no shortage of women who wore heels daily, to work, dinner/night out, etc., in my region. I do think that there are some regions where you are more likely to see women wearing heels, than others (pre-Covid). I live in a densely populated part of the country, so it has always been fairly common to see women in heels, especially in high-end retail environments, offices (financial services, insurance, etc.), fine dining and entertainment venues, such as the symphony, theatre, etc. In my experience, I have always been more likely to frequent establishments that have a higher probability of finding women in heels. The order line at Taco Bell at 2:00 PM on a Tuesday afternoon, in a small rural town, where Taco Bell’s only competition, is the local pizza joint, who’s dining area consists of two booths, one of which is covered with stacks of pre-assembled pizza boxes, is NOT going to be my first pick of places to do heel spotting! Lol If I want to see women in heels, I go to places where women in heels are likely to be, and right now, with Covid, women who normally wear heels, are not really in those places. 

Where do you work? Because it just has to be the exception to the Heelpocalypse. Or is it one of those places where women outnumber the men by so damn much some weird competition for the few available good men has erupted?

[CAT]

I have a GF of 8 years now this XMAS, and one of her comments yesterday was," Aren't you glad you are with someone that you can be yourself, not hide anything, wear what you want, do what you want?"  how cold I ask for anything else?  She is awesome. I am still very selective on family outings, even though our kids know of my shoes and clothes, I do not want them harassed due to their father wearing a pair of heels.  When she and I go out its always heels for me and her be it simple Sorel wedges, which are our daily shoes these days to 5-6" spike heels and always in the open for all to see, sometimes even matching!

She is a keeper!!!  We often joke "who else would put up with me or you??" 

CAT

 

[bambam]

I won't give up heels at this point, I just think that would be ridiculous. I understand that what women say and what they do/want can be very different, but if I am to believe that we are doing this whole "equality of the sexes" thing, then to expect me to only wear mens clothing without expecting her to only wear dresses and pumps would be patently insane, and entirely unrealistic. Also, if a woman were to say that she would acquiesce to that compromise, I would still say no, it's too late, the cats out of the bag, I would rather be me. I suppose you could argue that some women didn't think their arguments through, some people want what they want when they want it, and nothing can change their mind, but since I won't bend to a toddlers temper tantrum, I also won't bend to an adult who ought to think a bit harder. It just isn't worth it, and letting someone get away with it once, teaches them that it's a viable procedure to get things that aren't fairly theirs, i.e., freedom with clothing selection AND veto power for their partners closet. Men wearing heels is still strange right now, no denying that, all we can do is be unapologetic, clear, brave, and accept no safe space, space is inherently full of danger and unknown, I'll meet it head on. 

[Chorlini]

13 hours ago, bambam said:

I won't give up heels at this point, I just think that would be ridiculous. I understand that what women say and what they do/want can be very different, but if I am to believe that we are doing this whole "equality of the sexes" thing, then to expect me to only wear mens clothing without expecting her to only wear dresses and pumps would be patently insane, and entirely unrealistic. Also, if a woman were to say that she would acquiesce to that compromise, I would still say no, it's too late, the cats out of the bag, I would rather be me. I suppose you could argue that some women didn't think their arguments through, some people want what they want when they want it, and nothing can change their mind, but since I won't bend to a toddlers temper tantrum, I also won't bend to an adult who ought to think a bit harder. It just isn't worth it, and letting someone get away with it once, teaches them that it's a viable procedure to get things that aren't fairly theirs, i.e., freedom with clothing selection AND veto power for their partners closet. Men wearing heels is still strange right now, no denying that, all we can do is be unapologetic, clear, brave, and accept no safe space, space is inherently full of danger and unknown, I'll meet it head on. 

It's not about equality. We've had equality of gender and ethnicity by law for decades. It's about who gets to be the biggest victim by claiming the biggest injustices and who can thus claim cash and prizes, browbeat others and become the winner of the Victim Olympics. As for dating women, speaking in general of course, because there are always exceptions and god bless them, they don't want to be traditional themselves but still expect men to be traditional. So we have to look traditional, act traditional, earn traditional and pay for the dates traditional. Which is why I said, that if I were to manage, by sheer luck, to find that one unicorn that ticks off all the good things that won't put me at risk legally, who I am attracted too physically, mentally, spiritually and sexually, then if my heels are a stumbling block, then yes, I might be open to look for some storage space.

[bambam]

On 1/2/2021 at 9:24 AM, Chorlini said:

It's not about equality. We've had equality of gender and ethnicity by law for decades. It's about who gets to be the biggest victim by claiming the biggest injustices and who can thus claim cash and prizes, browbeat others and become the winner of the Victim Olympics. As for dating women, speaking in general of course, because there are always exceptions and god bless them, they don't want to be traditional themselves but still expect men to be traditional. So we have to look traditional, act traditional, earn traditional and pay for the dates traditional. Which is why I said, that if I were to manage, by sheer luck, to find that one unicorn that ticks off all the good things that won't put me at risk legally, who I am attracted too physically, mentally, spiritually and sexually, then if my heels are a stumbling block, then yes, I might be open to look for some storage space.

It's an unfortunate characterization, perhaps most unfortunate because I agree with a great deal of what you said. I had to think about what you said, and I suppose the correct answer from my camp would actually have to be quite similar to yours, in that, compromise must always be an option in any relationship, so long as it isn't malevolent or dysfunctional. Theres a couple who are both evolutionary biologists that I enjoy (Heather Heying and Bret Weinstein)  whom I admire, who posit that a renegotiation between the sexes in the 21st century is necessary. I'm not sure what more I can say about it, other than I agree,  the old values don't seem to work for anybody, and doing whatever we want seems to alienate us all from the other side, such that communication is completely broken. When I was bartending at a 5 star hotel here in LA, many of my guests were women in their 20s and 30s with very powerful careers, whose company valued them so much that they them up in this hotel, where rooms stat at 800 a night. The constant story they all told in one way or another was that there were no more  men left. The Problem with that is, if you want a high value man, it will become increasingly difficult the higher you ascend in the world. By the time you are staying in this hotel, you are a millionaire, and finding someone who is wealthier, more powerful, and at least as valuable as you is going to be difficult, not least because most men in that position are not going to be similarly minded. So, perhaps the old traditions will hold us together, I tend to think that we have such a poor relationship with reality, that a huge rethink for the sexes is necessary. 

[Chorlini]

9 hours ago, bambam said:

It's an unfortunate characterization, perhaps most unfortunate because I agree with a great deal of what you said. I had to think about what you said, and I suppose the correct answer from my camp would actually have to be quite similar to yours, in that, compromise must always be an option in any relationship, so long as it isn't malevolent or dysfunctional. Theres a couple who are both evolutionary biologists that I enjoy (Heather Heying and Bret Weinstein)  whom I admire, who posit that a renegotiation between the sexes in the 21st century is necessary. I'm not sure what more I can say about it, other than I agree,  the old values don't seem to work for anybody, and doing whatever we want seems to alienate us all from the other side, such that communication is completely broken. When I was bartending at a 5 star hotel here in LA, many of my guests were women in their 20s and 30s with very powerful careers, whose company valued them so much that they them up in this hotel, where rooms stat at 800 a night. The constant story they all told in one way or another was that there were no more  men left. The Problem with that is, if you want a high value man, it will become increasingly difficult the higher you ascend in the world. By the time you are staying in this hotel, you are a millionaire, and finding someone who is wealthier, more powerful, and at least as valuable as you is going to be difficult, not least because most men in that position are not going to be similarly minded. So, perhaps the old traditions will hold us together, I tend to think that we have such a poor relationship with reality, that a huge rethink for the sexes is necessary. 

We can't renegotiate what is hardwired into us. We're mammals. Mammals tend to have an alpha male getting all the women and the lesser males being banished into the wild. Women tend to want the man that is on top of the food chain, and not one that is below even them. And the more choice we get, the more we get messed up with armies of beta orbiters, thank you online dating and social media, the harder it will be to make that decision. And there are plenty of men, most are just invisible. The 80/20 rule, that 80% of women only want 20% of the men. Which some theorize has now become a 90/10 rule. Also, for their to be a renegotiation women will have to become aware of their own behavior and desires. And I don't mean as in thinking it as toxic, just be aware of how your behavior and desires work. And I don't see that happening. Because society, the media, nobody is telling them to be aware. Just do whatever you want and you can have it all. You go, girl! If its not working, it's the fault of toxic men! Not you! Never you! Blame men, get cash and prizes! Those are not messages conducive to becoming self aware. And the only persons who try to tell them a different narrative are us toxic red pill males. Don't listen to us, we're toxic. Sexist, patriarchic. Scum of the Earth who want to chain you back into the kitched, to be de-platformed soon! There can be no negotiations under those conditions, only a dictate of terms of surrender.

For an optimal renegotiation of terms I, as a man, have to be aware of my desires and behaviors, which still work in this day and age, and which no longer do. What are realistic expections, which aren't, what do I expect of the other, what can the other expect of me. I have no desire to see the return of the patriarchy, even if it did create the most awesome civilization in history, all I ask are reasonable expectations and demands from the other side and some awareness of their own behaviors. And then we can renegotiate in earnest. Although I still think our mammalian brains will have the better of us. I think you really have to be really self aware of your own nature to avoid those mammalian drives.

[RonC]

Interesting conversation.  I find that the older I get, I'm not a real big fan of change....lol.

[Shyheels]

I’m certainly no fan of a lot of the changes I’m witnessing these days.

[Chorlini]

I feel that as I get older I understand crazy old coots now. You now have decades of life experience to see through the bullshit and yet when you try to tell people about it they look at you as if you're crazy. This truly explains why life is a mess and things keep on repeating themselves. The old know better, but are too old to capitalize on it, the young are able to capitalize on things, know jack shit, but they think they know better.

 

[Shyheels]

It is an age-old proble - Pliny and Socrates were bemoaning this back in their day. But now we have social media to contend with, where the lightest weight of "news" stories - not even news at all - can become international headlines, thanks to to Twitter mobs; where "outrage" is the noblest of human virtues, and "fact" becomes whatever gains the most likes or re-tweets.  

[pebblesf]

6 hours ago, Chorlini said:

I feel that as I get older I understand crazy old coots now. You now have decades of life experience to see through the bullshit and yet when you try to tell people about it they look at you as if you're crazy. This truly explains why life is a mess and things keep on repeating themselves. The old know better, but are too old to capitalize on it, the young are able to capitalize on things, know jack shit, but they think they know better.

 

Ah yes, the curse of youth indeed...

[Bubba136]

As I look back over the years to my youth, I don’t remember being as deadly certain that my opinions were so absolutely correct to a point where I wouldn’t even entertain a thought that I could be wrong or that there might be more more than one solution or way to solve a problem.  I do know for a fact that with young people these days, anyone voicing an alternative or opposing view will likely get them shot .  It’s like there is no room for discussion.

[Shyheels]

Yes, they are often in error, but never in doubt

[p1ng74]

“Youth is wasted on the young.”

I make it a goal to stay as youthful in spirit as possible as I age in discernment and instinct.  

I remember that feeling of youthful stubbornness and probably still exercise it more than I realize.  I’ll find out I am wrong on my own experience, rather than heeding the advice of others.  Sometimes people cannot be convinced by reason or argument.  

Then, once experienced, I flip into a stubborn old coot with limited tolerance of the input of self proclaimed experts that have never actually experienced what they are talking about.  It’s no wonder why I don’t have many friends lol.  

[Shyheels]

I'm still trying to sort out what it is I'm going to do when I grow up...

[mlroseplant]

My situation is far from unique, but perhaps it is interesting. I have the opportunity to interact with young people on a regular basis, mainly because my 21 year old son often brings friends over to work on cars, simply because I have the facilities to do so, and all are welcome from the clean-cut to the rough-looking folks, as long as they put everything back when they're done. I dunno, maybe it's because I'm from a small town. Maybe it's because I'm from Iowa. Maybe it's because I'm an old fart who can coax rusted fasteners apart while wearing high heels, but I just don't feel the future is as dark as many would posit.

[Shyheels]

I just see freedom of speech, thought and asociation being surrendered uncritically, and Twitter mobs becoming the de facto editors of what was once a free press.  While other aspects of society might suggest a bright future, it's hard for me to be optimistic given what I see of these fundamentals. The inhabitants of Aldous Huxley's Brave New World were generally happy, taking their Soma, praising his Fordship, and it was only the reader - standing outside, looking in - who grasped that all was not well.   

[p1ng74]

8 hours ago, mlroseplant said:

My situation is far from unique, but perhaps it is interesting. I have the opportunity to interact with young people on a regular basis, mainly because my 21 year old son often brings friends over to work on cars, simply because I have the facilities to do so, and all are welcome from the clean-cut to the rough-looking folks, as long as they put everything back when they're done. I dunno, maybe it's because I'm from a small town. Maybe it's because I'm from Iowa. Maybe it's because I'm an old fart who can coax rusted fasteners apart while wearing high heels, but I just don't feel the future is as dark as many would posit.

I’ve also found that wrenching on cars brings out some of the best human camaraderie.  You’ve already mostly weeded out the lazy and the self-proclaimed keyboard experts.  It seems there are more like-minded people in small towns.  Problem is, we are still all far away from each other, so now I’m swapping motors by myself:

[RonC]

9 hours ago, mlroseplant said:

I dunno, maybe it's because I'm from a small town.

I tend to think that plays a large part in the picture.  In general, hardworking people that don't rely on the government for their subsistence.  

[Chorlini]

18 hours ago, p1ng74 said:

I’ve also found that wrenching on cars brings out some of the best human camaraderie.  You’ve already mostly weeded out the lazy and the self-proclaimed keyboard experts.  It seems there are more like-minded people in small towns.  Problem is, we are still all far away from each other, so now I’m swapping motors by myself:

Building stuff by hand is one of the time honored traditions on how men can bond together.  It also gives you a unique kind of tactile feedback that feels great and just can't be reproduced by creating something digitally. There is something greatly rewarding in looking back at something, a car, a guitar, some now addition or change in your home and being able to say, I made this!

17 hours ago, RonC said:

I tend to think that plays a large part in the picture.  In general, hardworking people that don't rely on the government for their subsistence.  

Sadly cities are not such places. Lots of people who work in offices, shuffling paper and ones and zeroes. Who get to decide upon people but not see the consequences of their decisions. And of course people on welfare.

[Shyheels]

42 minutes ago, Chorlini said:

Building stuff by hand is one of the time honored traditions on how men can bond together.  It also gives you a unique kind of tactile feedback that feels great and just can't be reproduced by creating something digitally. There is something greatly rewarding in looking back at something, a car, a guitar, some now addition or change in your home and being able to say, I made this!

Sadly cities are not such places. Lots of people who work in offices, shuffling paper and ones and zeroes. Who get to decide upon people but not see the consequences of their decisions. And of course people on welfare.

Yes, I create things with light and words, but I do envy those who can create object of substance 

[maninpumps]

Seems we had a question not unlike this one asked awhile back . To be honest , I told my wife while we were dating my love of wearing and collecting heels . I told her before we went any farther in our relationship I was head over heels for her ...... pun intended . It was my intention at that point in our relationship we get all the cards on the table . I figured if she couldn't take me as I was we would never make it . My ghost needed to be out of the closet as did hers . The next week I asked her folks for their blessing and purchased her an engagement ring . That was 24 years ago and we are still going strong . The only issue she has complained about is how many heels I have that I don't wear anymore . For the most part , I have taken care of that issue for the time being . We all know how heels tend to accumulate over time so , this issue will reappear at some point . So , to answer the question would be NO , 24 years ago ! But , circumstances change , today I would have to ditch my heels for her , she is my life as are my children .

Edited May 18, 2021 by maninpumps

[SF]

Short answer, No...  The long version would be quite a tome indeed.... sf