Company policies

[maninboots]

While i prefer to wear my boots and heels with a more masculine outfit, i was out shopping in Burton upon Trent last week wearing some high heeled boots and thought I’d try something out for an experiment. I popped into a branch of Evans, a clothing store for plus size women, after browsing for a while i found a fairly nice looking dress, i went and asked the female assistant if i could pop in and try it on. I was told politely sorry no, i questioned the reason and was told it was company policy not to allow male looking men into the changing room, she said if i was dressed more feminine then it wouldn’t be a problem. I thought this explanation totally odd because no matter how feminine i look I’d still be a man in the changing room, i questioned if this ruling contravened discrimination laws to which she replied she didn’t know, told me i could take it up with customer service if i wanted to.

    I was wondering if anyone else could make sense of this or has had any similar experiences, just seems a strange rule to be honest 

[Cali]

I think corporate will tel you it is because of their female customers, but is it legal is another thing. Now, would they prevent a masculine looking woman from using their changing rooms because she looked too masculine? And what is "dressed more feminine" mean? There's a lot of subjective stuff here.

I was dressed in 100% women's clothes yesterday out to lunch and then on a hike. I certainly didn't look feminine at all. In fact my friend complimented me on my fleece top over the (sleeveless) turtleneck telling me she thought they looked very good together. She did not know they were women's.

Edited February 25, 2019 by Cali

[maninboots]

50 minutes ago, Cali said:

I think corporate will tel you it is because of their female customers, but is it legal is another thing. Now, would they prevent a masculine looking woman from using their changing rooms because she looked too masculine? And what is "dressed more feminine" mean? There's a lot of subjective stuff here.

I was dressed in 100% women's clothes yesterday out to lunch and then on a hike. I certainly didn't look feminine at all. In fact my friend complimented me on my fleece top over the (sleeveless) turtleneck telling me she thought they looked very good together. She did not know they were women's.

I totally agree with everything you said, you can be wearing all women’s clothing and still not be feminine, think she was implying i should be fully cross dressed with wig, makeup, the full works to be allowed in the changing room but it still doesn’t change the fact that I’d still be a man in a women’s changing room, and apart from anything else I’ve desire at all to present myself as female but it would be nice to experiment with different styles without having rules and regulations thrown at you 

[pebblesf]

It is pretty tough to navigate today's world with all the variations/definitions concerning sexual identity and presentation....

I think I may understand the reasoning behind that store's policy.  Perhaps they figured that guys wearing just a thing or two off the women's size of the aisle were more likely to have ill intentions/peeping toms/etc when they entered the "women's dressing room".  Perhaps they felt that a male if full female dress/make up/hair etc was more serious about this transition/sexual identity and less likely to have ill intentions towards other women in the dressing room.  

Needless to say, making simple generalizations like this, is surely not going to guarantee anything about changing room safety.  But, I do understand why the business feels the need to protect their patrons in the changing room.  I'm guessing the store only had one changing room.  The situation could have been handled better if the clerk had offered to wait outside the changing rooms while you were in there alone, asking the women patrons "to please wait just a few minutes" while you changed and came back out of the changing rooms....

Edited February 25, 2019 by pebblesf
spelling

[maninboots]

55 minutes ago, pebblesf said:

It is pretty tough to navigate today's world with all the variations/definitions concerning sexual identity and presentation....

I think I may understand the reasoning behind that store's policy.  Perhaps they figured that guys wearing just a thing or two off the women's size of the aisle were more likely to have ill intentions/peeping toms/etc when they entered the "women's dressing room".  Perhaps they felt that a male if full female dress/make up/hair etc was more serious about this transition/sexual identity and less likely to have ill intentions towards other women in the dressing room.  

Needless to say, making simple generalizations like this, is surely not going to guarantee anything about changing room safety.  But, I do understand why the business feels the need to protect their patrons in the changing room.  I'm guessing the store only had one changing room.  The situation could have been handled better if the clerk had offered to wait outside the changing rooms while you were in there alone, asking the women patrons "to please wait just a few minutes" while you changed and came back out of the changing rooms....

I totally understand where you’re coming from Don, and also why they wouldn’t want a man around half naked women, but i don’t see the difference between a man just in women’s clothing and a man fully dressed as a woman, it’s still a man at the end of the day, some stores here in the uk have communal changing rooms with more solid cubicles and not just a curtain, maybe this day and age that should be the way forward, male or female you can lock the door and have privacy 

[HappyinHeels]

maninboots,

I think some of us have written about this before. Here in the United States and Canada there are laws governing how one presents themselves and the options they have for using public facilities. I think what happened to you at the store is pretty close to how it would go here. Using a changing room is one thing whilst using say a restroom is quite another. The more convincing you look then the easier it is on anyone seeing you and the less of an issue it becomes. Some stores such as Target have specific policies aimed at being very GLBTQ-friendly so men trying on women's clothes in their changing areas is just not an issue. The entire state of California, and cities such Seattle, Dallas, Houston, and Boston have ordinances directing city government and businesses to treat transgendered persons, or persons reasonably attired as such, to be treated equally under the law. I think it comes down to just how much one  blends in. Trying on shoes is easy since no changing room is involved but when one tries on shoes while trying to coordinate an outfit that is a bit different. I seem to have a feel for it. Some stores I have tried on things in the changing rooms and other times I just did the best eyeball-fit in the mirror job I could. I have never had to return anything that I didn't actually try on. I am always cognizant of where the line is and don't want to make someone else visibly uncomfortable. The more you are out the more you will get a feel  for it. I do think if you are wearing heels or carrying a handbag or otherwise wearing some more feminine articles it puts out a more welcoming vibe.  There is another option. Go to a store and pick some men's pants or shirts along with some women's outfits. Go to the men's changing area and try the women's stuff there. No hassle and you'll know for sure if you have a good fit. Whatever doesn't fit you just put back. I do agree though that allowing biological women to feel as comfortable as possible in their own space is really important in a retail store situation. If you look like you belong there probably will not be an issue. If you don't belong you'll find out fast. I hope this makes sense. HappyinHeels 

[jeremy1986]

Interesting question at hand...  I hear both sides of the argument... but a somewhat happy that we haven't gone as far as some of the US States have gone of letting folks decide who/what they are inside (no offense meant to anyone...) but regardless of anything - kudos for having the guts to do what you did

 

[BillieJay]

I frequently try on feminine styled clothing in stores, but not in a feminine boutique type of store.

my wife often picks out stuff for me, and distracts the attendants if they're too attentive.

here in the US, I most often try on clothing in Target, less often in WalMart (the fitting room women are very territorial, but they'll let you), and, funny enough, Hot Topic; the sales people there are a boatload of fun, and always think it's cool.

I almost never present as femme, though I often wear "girljeans" and high heel boots when I'm shopping.

[nzfreestyler]

I frequently try on skirts/tops and dresses in womens only stores - I just walk in and look for what I like.

I might add to that I usually wear high heels amd a skirt/dress anyway so they know I am shopping for myself !

The staff know me now and often try to sell me stuff.

I do use the changing rooms to try on (obviously) and sometimes they are busy but I never had any issues, nobody has said anything other than praise.

(the good boutiques usually have a range of high heels in the dressing areas, so when you come out to look in the mirrors etc and check fit - you can see how it looks in different heels too if you wear a regular size.

Edited February 28, 2019 by nzfreestyler

[CAT]

I have not had a problem shopping at Express Guess and Macy’s to name a few. Sometimes I go in in typicall guy clothes and other in a skirt and heels, never had an issue with anyone about trying on clothes.

I will say when I’m out shopping and I’m in a skirt and heels I get  literally 4 times the help and assistance then when I wear typical guy clothes.    

[HappyinHeels]

Yep, what CAT says is true. The service is always better when you are in the store in heels than not. It removes any doubt and gives them the vibe you are not a bashful customer. HinH

[Shyheels]

And I would think 'bashful' in that instance could easily translate to 'creepy'.

[Amanda]

20 minutes ago, Shyheels said:

And I would think 'bashful' in that instance could easily translate to 'creepy'.

It can.

[Shyheels]

17 minutes ago, Amanda said:

It can.

And would!

Edited February 27, 2019 by Shyheels

[CAT]

4 hours ago, Shyheels said:

And would!

And it does!

 

[p1ng74]

5 hours ago, HappyinHeels said:

Yep, what CAT says is true. The service is always better when you are in the store in heels than not. It removes any doubt and gives them the vibe you are not a bashful customer. HinH

Wearing heels while shopping is also a good conversation starter with sales associates.  More often than not, when I am shopping, they compliment my shoes or outfit when offering assistance.  It’s also a quick way to develop yourself as a regular customer at a store, where you can go back often as get good treatment and insider information on upcoming stock changes and discounts.  

[Cali]

I get better service than the average woman customer in many of the shoe stores I go in. Haven't been in a men's shoe store in a decade, I wonder what kind of service I would get...LOL.

In some stores the sales assistance know me as a good customer and will tell me what's new, what's coming in, and when. 

But, this is only shoe shopping.

[Chorlini]

I remember there being an article in the local newspaper about a clothing store, I think it was Zara telling a men who couldn't use the women's dressing rooms to try on female clothes. And that it was causing a minor stink. The store also said he was welcome to try the clothes in the men's dressing rooms, which I thought was fair. The few times I've tried on women's clothes in stores I've always taken them to the men's booths. No problems were ever had. Although I reckon this would be harder in a store catering only to women.

[pebblesf]

On 2/25/2019 at 3:17 PM, maninboots said:

I totally understand where you’re coming from Don, and also why they wouldn’t want a man around half naked women, but i don’t see the difference between a man just in women’s clothing and a man fully dressed as a woman, it’s still a man at the end of the day, some stores here in the uk have communal changing rooms with more solid cubicles and not just a curtain, maybe this day and age that should be the way forward, male or female you can lock the door and have privacy 

You are so right....Changing/restrooms will have to be "re-imagined" to accomodate today's ever changing gender identity confusion...  And I agree with you, at the end of the day, a man is a man regardless of how he is dressed.  

16 hours ago, Shyheels said:

And I would think 'bashful' in that instance could easily translate to 'creepy'.

Yes, I think you are exactly correct....   Needless to say, this is an unfair "generalization" also, but that is the way society works sometimes...

5 hours ago, Chorlini said:

I remember there being an article in the local newspaper about a clothing store, I think it was Zara telling a men who couldn't use the women's dressing rooms to try on female clothes. And that it was causing a minor stink. The store also said he was welcome to try the clothes in the men's dressing rooms, which I thought was fair. The few times I've tried on women's clothes in stores I've always taken them to the men's booths. No problems were ever had. Although I reckon this would be harder in a store catering only to women.

Seems like a sensible policy....

[maninpumps]

My local Torrid store has offered on several occasions to stay open later or open early to allow me to shop and try on cloths / shoes if I prefer . They seem to want me to come back for future sales . Lane Bryant has offered the same . My wife is with me most of the time and it's no issue . Then again as it's been mentioned , heels are a good way to inform the sale staff you are looking to purchase women's attire .  One other thing , always wear a product from that store you intend to visit . Sales people are looking for input on your recent purchase from them . 

[mlroseplant]

I will admit, I have not tried on a ton of clothes in changing rooms in the U.S. In Vietnam, it's a whole different ball game, most small shops don't have anything like what we would call a "dressing" or "changing" room, you just go in the back of a cramped shop the size of my living room and hide behind a curtain, but I digress. Maybe I am not sensitive enough, but I don't recall a changing room situation in the U.S. where you are mixed with anybody, male or female, in anything other than a full state of dress. It's not like using a bathroom (toilet). What's the problem?