The High Heeled Ruminations Of Melrose Plant

[Puffer]

6 hours ago, Gudulitooo said:

How to make things complicated when you could have them simple.

I assume you are suggesting that a ring circuit (properly so-called) is 'complicated'.   Not really, if you followed the description given by at9.   It will often use little or no more cable than a radial circuit to the same outlet positions and, as the cable is smaller (i.e. typically 2.5mm rather than 4mm), it is a little easier to run and somewhat cheaper.  

I won't comment further on the alleged safety disadvantages - ring circuits have been very widely used for 70 years or more and serve their purpose well.   It is all too easy to condemn or criticise something that has a good track record, but even if the criticism has some justification in the light of prevailing 'best practice', it does not follow that the existing item or set-up is wrong or dangerous to the extent that it should be discontinued or (worse) replaced.   The recent UK requirement for domestic consumer units in all new installations to be metal-clad (or put within in a metal enclosure) rather than plastic (as accepted for many years) in order to be fireproof is a case in point - and doesn't exactly square with the breakers and isolators within them still being plastic-bodied.   Within a few months, stocks of perfectly good CUs became useless - and were mostly sold on to third-world countries who are not quite so fussy.

But, over-regulated or not, I will say that I prefer the standardisation of Regs in England/Wales (with Scotland and Northern Ireland only slightly different) to the free-for-all which seems to prevail in North America.    And, getting back to my original point, the 230/240V AC domestic mains supply has many advantages. 

[mlroseplant]

Wow, my thread is HOT again for the first time in years! Sigh.

Even as an industrial electrician with 22 years of experience, I admit I had to look up what in the heck ring circuit vs. radial circuit wiring was. I'd never HEARD of anyone wiring in this way, outside of some fire alarm systems, which are 24V anyway. Once I read a couple of paragraphs, I now realize why I've never run into this before. It's because it's effectively prohibited here (though not by direct language), so no one would really think of doing it that way. But thank you @Puffer for bringing the subject up, I have learned something I didn't know before.

Though this HOT! thread has gotten WAY off the subject, it makes me realize that in all reality, high heels, though I wear them every day and consider myself an enthusiast, are a very minor part of my life, looking at the big picture. Sometimes I'd rather talk about other things of interest.

[HappyinHeels]

That's the beauty of conversation. We start with a common bond which later leads to other things which interest us. From working on cars, discussing the finer points of electrical configurations, the gauge of plumbing, or the ebb and flow of economic activity we all are participants in the dialogue. HinH

[Shyheels]

Although everything I know about electricity and DIY could be chiselled on an aspirin tablet, it is nice to read such an ebb and flow of dialogue in a thread, even when it drifts a long way off the original topic.  Footwear is footwear - it’s topical, fun, fashionable, expressive - but there is also much more to oneself than that.

[at9]

The US arrangements sound far too complicated. In the UK and Europe we have almost universally 3 phase. 230V phse to neutral and 400V phase to phase. The neutral is earthed (grounded) at the star point of th distribution transformer. Domestic users get a single phase, commercial and industrial users get all 3. That's it. Unless you're a big industrial user in which case you'll take power at 11kV or higher.

[Cali]

One of the ways the feds get their rules adopted is through disasters.  To get federal disaster funding the feds require the community to adopt the federal standards.

[Puffer]

7 hours ago, mlroseplant said:

Wow, my thread is HOT again for the first time in years! Sigh.

Even as an industrial electrician with 22 years of experience, I admit I had to look up what in the heck ring circuit vs. radial circuit wiring was. I'd never HEARD of anyone wiring in this way, outside of some fire alarm systems, which are 24V anyway. Once I read a couple of paragraphs, I now realize why I've never run into this before. It's because it's effectively prohibited here (though not by direct language), so no one would really think of doing it that way. But thank you @Puffer for bringing the subject up, I have learned something I didn't know before.

Though this HOT! thread has gotten WAY off the subject, it makes me realize that in all reality, high heels, though I wear them every day and consider myself an enthusiast, are a very minor part of my life, looking at the big picture. Sometimes I'd rather talk about other things of interest.

You are welcome, mlrp - I try to educate but have also learned much from these exchanges.   Sorry to hijack the thread for off-topic discussion but my curiosity about US plumbing (and wiring) got the better of me!   (Isn't the proof of a fruitful life that one ought to be able to learn or achieve something new and useful every day?   I consider the day a failure if that doesn't happen - and it must surely be detrimental to mental health as one gets older.)

I suppose the British have a well-deserved reputation for innovation and lateral thinking, so the conception and application of a ring circuit seemed obvious to us but clearly has passed most of the rest of the world by.   As I've intimated earlier: if it ain't broke ...

[at9]

One of the consequences of having 32A final ciruits is that you really need a fuse in the plug. This is largely to protect the flex, not the appliance. Most countries have 16A or 20A finals which is just about adequate to protect all but the thinnest flexes. There are several problems with the fused plug. The worst (IMO) is that when loaded with more than about 10A there are plenty of plugs whose quality is marginal and they overheat. I've seen scorch marks on too many plugs and sockets caused by poor fuse contacts or sometimes poor contacts in the socket. The German Schuko (and similar French design) used in many countries is generally better quality. It also allows many small double insulated appliances to have a very compact 2 pin plug.

So in conclusion the UK BS1363 13amp system is generally OK but rather clunky and suffers some failures. If you were starting from scratch now you wouldn't invent it. There have been a few attempts to invent a new system for the UK but none have got anywhere. Changing over would be almost impossible. Though the Italians are gradually changing from their own unique sockets to Schuko.

PS: I have sometimes done electrical wiring at home while wearing heels:-)

[Shyheels]

Heels could be handy for reaching hard to reach places!

[dww]

Yes I remember in Benbridge on the Isle of wight, our landlord asked me if I could wire up his flat, yes I said looking at wiring regs all sockets have to 9 inches above damp course (sorry for those metric types) sockets endened up 8 foot from the floor. But he was happy.

[Gudulitooo]

1 hour ago, at9 said:

PS: I have sometimes done electrical wiring at home while wearing heels:-)

For newbies (like me), it is easier to plug a <16 A appliance on an outlet and check that the matching line in the electrical box is rated at 16A, thus I am sure it works.

If I need several appliances on outlets connected to the same fuse 1) I can easily identify which are together (by removing the fuse), and 2) I sum up all rated currents and insure the sum is below 16A.

Period.

[at9]

2 hours ago, Shyheels said:

Heels could be handy for reaching hard to reach places!

Only if they have platforms. Otherwise it's no more than you could do by standing on your toes. I was given a pair of goth style boots with 3" platforms and 5" heels. Very comfortable but deceptive and potentially treacherous. I've worn them for halloween and occasional parties. Would be good for cutting my hedges where I can only just about reach the tops.

 

1 hour ago, dww said:

Yes I remember in Benbridge on the Isle of wight, our landlord asked me if I could wire up his flat, yes I said looking at wiring regs all sockets have to 9 inches above damp course (sorry for those metric types) sockets endened up 8 foot from the floor. But he was happy.

I don't think the regs explicitly give a distance above DPC. But it would be against the regs to install ordinary flush mounted domestic sockets in a wall that was known or likely to be damp. There is a requirement to site sockets sufficiently above horizontal surfaces to ensure that the flex isn't stressed as it exits the plug. This distance isn't explicity stated in the regs but is commonly taken as 6"/150mm.

 

42 minutes ago, Gudulitooo said:

For newbies (like me), it is easier to plug a <16 A appliance on an outlet and check that the matching line in the electrical box is rated at 16A, thus I am sure it works.

If I need several appliances on outlets connected to the same fuse 1) I can easily identify which are together (by removing the fuse), and 2) I sum up all rated currents and insure the sum is below 16A.

Period.

A domestic user should never have to do these sorts of calculations. The whole point of a corectly designed installation is that you can use it in any reasonable way (and many unreasonable ways) without causing overloads. Of course you can defeat the system. If you have a washing machine, tumble drier, toaster, electric kettle and fan heater all working at once you'll be pushing or exceeding the limits of a 32A circuit. That's why special care must be taken when designing kitchen wiring. Perhaps providing a separate circuit for washer and dryer. In UK regs a 32A final circuit can serve an unlimited number of sockets in a house but these must be within a 100 sq metre area. Perfectly sensible for most purposes. For commercial/industrial premises the designer must work out likely usage rather than use customary limits.

CIrcuit protection by fuses and circuit breakers is actually a complicated subject. Here's a very basic primer on the subject. A 13A fuse doesn't blow as soon as you take 13.5A. In fact it won't blow for quite a long time even if you take 20A.The design aim is that the fuse should blow or breaker trip before the wiring reaches a harmful temperature. Whether that takes seconds or hours. It's very hard to protect against small overloads. 22A will take a very long time to blow a 20A fuse. The wiring may start to deteriorate if that happens too often. Conversely a fuse/breaker has to be able to interrupt a potentially very large current in the event of a short circuit. I've seen thin flex explode in a shower of sparks where it has shorted due to wear and tear. The fuse shoudl have blown before the flex but didn't.

[Puffer]

A helpful treatise, at9, and the warning about clearance under plugs (especially the moulded-on types) is something often overlooked.   The Regs recommend (but I don't think yet 'require') wall sockets and switches etc to be mounted at a (consistent) height that is capable of ready access and use by the occupier, with disabled people very much in mind.   Certainly, the trend is to put sockets higher up the wall than at the 'skirting board' height that used to be typical - I generally allow about a foot to the bottom of the box cutout.

Whilst you are quite right about the relative insensitivity of fuses (and even more so of most MCBs) to modest overloads, I would be surprised in your kitchen scenario if such a combo of simultaneously-working appliances would really cause a problem in practice.   Of course, one would rarely need to have so much in use together and the typical kitchen with its ring or radial circuit protected by a 32A MCB (or 30A hard-wired fuse in an older unit) is generally adequate.   When designing circuits, 'diversity' (i.e. the likely true simultaneous loading) is allowed for.  Of greater importance, perhaps, is to put the fridge/freezer on its own circuit through an RCBO (more expense however!) so the risk of it being switched off by an RCD tripping is removed and food is not spoiled.   And of course an oven, hob or cooker (or combination thereof) of any size really needs its own circuit with quite possibly a larger cable and an MCB of 40A. 

One thing I've never really understood is the floor-area restriction for a single circuit.   Aside from probably limiting the overall length of the supply cable, unless the area is very long but narrow (and therefore keeping cable resistance within bounds), what does it achieve?   (Of course, 100 sq m is a large area in most domestic properties - greater than the likely area of any one floor in a house - so the limitation is not generally an issue.)

[at9]

The higher socket height is for new build. Doesn't affect existing properties being rewired. Same regs also specify light switches should be lower than we are used to.

The area served by a circuit is part of the diversity calculation. 20A radials require greater care than 32A circuits and are only allowed to serve a smaller area. I forget the numbers.

Fixed appliances needing a high current (typically for cooking or water heating) should normally have their own dedicated circuit.

[dww]

Only problem is , the rules I was following were from 1970, things have changed a bit since then. Still cannot get over this brown and blue cable colours, nowt wrong with red and black.

[at9]

10 minutes ago, dww said:

Only problem is , the rules I was following were from 1970, things have changed a bit since then. Still cannot get over this brown and blue cable colours, nowt wrong with red and black.

It's worse with 3 phase. The phases are brown, black, grey. Instead of the old red,yellow, blue. You're working in a 3 phase environment and there's a blue wire. Or a black wire. Whoops! There are meant to be labels showing that mixed colours are used in an installation but you still need to take care.

In different countries at different times all sorts of colours have been used. In the past the Germans have used red for earth (ground). In the USA black is (was?) live.

[Puffer]

3 hours ago, at9 said:

The higher socket height is for new build. Doesn't affect existing properties being rewired. Same regs also specify light switches should be lower than we are used to.

The area served by a circuit is part of the diversity calculation. 20A radials require greater care than 32A circuits and are only allowed to serve a smaller area. I forget the numbers.

Fixed appliances needing a high current (typically for cooking or water heating) should normally have their own dedicated circuit.

Yes, I realise that socket/switch height is only applicable to new-build (thank goodness).   But WHY is the floor area directly relevant to a circuit?   Is it because, in addressing diversity, there is an assumption that more appliances will be in use simultaneously in a larger area?   Often, the Regs don't seem to square with one's intuition or common-sense and, if there was a brief explanation of a requirement or restriction, compliance would be better.

 

1 hour ago, dww said:

Only problem is , the rules I was following were from 1970, things have changed a bit since then. Still cannot get over this brown and blue cable colours, nowt wrong with red and black.

1 hour ago, at9 said:

It's worse with 3 phase. The phases are brown, black, grey. Instead of the old red,yellow, blue. You're working in a 3 phase environment and there's a blue wire. Or a black wire. Whoops! There are meant to be labels showing that mixed colours are used in an installation but you still need to take care.

In different countries at different times all sorts of colours have been used. In the past the Germans have used red for earth (ground). In the USA black is (was?) live.

Where alterations/additions are made to a (domestic) circuit wired in the 'old' colours, it makes sense to continue using the old cable, if possible, and I don't think anything in the Regs actually prohibits this (not that detection is likely).   No need then for the warning labels either.   I use my 'old stock' for this reason - and I ain't throwing it away.   To my mind, the old 'triple and earth' cable (for two-way lighting, switched fans etc) was much more logical, e.g. red for phase (live); yellow for switched live; blue for neutral.   Brown instead of red is fine, but the application of the black and grey is hardly obvious - a blue instead of black would be more logical.

When asked, Joe Public often suggests that the brown wire is 'earth' - on the not altogether silly premise that, in the outside world, 'earth is usually a muddy brown colour' (unless, for example, you live in South Devon or Africa!).    

[Shyheels]

Or in that part of Australia we Australians call 'the red centre'...

[mlroseplant]

2 hours ago, at9 said:

It's worse with 3 phase. The phases are brown, black, grey. Instead of the old red,yellow, blue. You're working in a 3 phase environment and there's a blue wire. Or a black wire. Whoops! There are meant to be labels showing that mixed colours are used in an installation but you still need to take care.

In different countries at different times all sorts of colours have been used. In the past the Germans have used red for earth (ground). In the USA black is (was?) live.

You are quite correct--black is not only used as a live, or "hot," as we call it here (technically it is an "ungrounded conductor"), it is by far the most common color used as a live. However, per the National Electrical Code, you can use any color you want as a live, with the following exceptions: Earth must be green (we call it a ground), neutral must be white or gray. Or black with white stripes, come to think of it. Any other color is fair game for any live. 

However, and this is the funniest thing, EVERYBODY uses black as the live, just by convention. No need for a code, everybody just does it. Black-red for 120/240V residential, Black-red-blue for 120/208V 3 phase, brown-orange-yellow for 277/480V 3 phase (using gray instead of white for neutral). Rarely do you ever see anybody use something different. Oh, except for the above-mentioned Delta 120/240V 3 phase, where your B phase is 208 volts to ground. That has to be orange by Code, and marked clearly in the main panel. And yes, everybody over the age of 40 has a story about somebody blowing something up by hooking it to the "high" leg of a Delta service. 

 

[at9]

43 minutes ago, Puffer said:

Yes, I realise that socket/switch height is only applicable to new-build (thank goodness).   But WHY is the floor area directly relevant to a circuit?   Is it because, in addressing diversity, there is an assumption that more appliances will be in use simultaneously in a larger area?   Often, the Regs don't seem to square with one's intuition or common-sense and, if there was a brief explanation of a requirement or restriction, compliance would be better.

 

Where alterations/additions are made to a (domestic) circuit wired in the 'old' colours, it makes sense to continue using the old cable, if possible, and I don't think anything in the Regs actually prohibits this (not that detection is likely).   No need then for the warning labels either.   I use my 'old stock' for this reason - and I ain't throwing it away.   To my mind, the old 'triple and earth' cable (for two-way lighting, switched fans etc) was much more logical, e.g. red for phase (live); yellow for switched live; blue for neutral.   Brown instead of red is fine, but the application of the black and grey is hardly obvious - a blue instead of black would be more logical.

AFAIK, using old colour cable for new work is no longer permitted. Not that it stops us doing so.

When using cable for single phase applications where cores are live, it's mandatory to sleeve them in brown if the insulation isn't already brown. That's mainly for switched live and 2 way switching situations. I have very rarely seen this done.

I would have thought it obvious that floor area is related to diversity. No matter how many sockets you have in a given area, there's a practical limit to the number of high current appliances you're likely to use in that area. By allowing an unlimited number of sockets you can have plenty of sockets where you might need them without the expense of separate circuits. If you're going to allow an unlimited number of sockets then you have to impose some kind of limit, most sensibly done by specifiying area served. For commercial and industrial premises the designer may need to make his/her own calculations.

A further limit is set by voltage drop. In domestic work unless there is an unusually long distance from consumer unit to sockets this is unlikely to be a problem. In commercial/industrial or very large houses a designer might well specify subsidiary distribution boards.

The regs themselves are complemented by commentaries and guides. Some published by the IET, others by 3rd parties. These often give the reasoning for regs as well as advice on practical ways to meet them. These days there are also forums where this sort of thing is debated. One item of interest in the new 18th Edition is the provision of arc fault detection: https://www.electrium.co.uk/18th-edition

[HappyinHeels]

mlroseplant is correct when he says everybody does seem to use black as a live connector but testing is recommended. I changed a switch at my barn entrance from a quad to a configuration of three switches and one outlet. Here's what I found: Orange was live, black was also live, yellow was neutral, and green was a ground. It also operates an outside lamp. Turns out this was the end of the line and the guy who built the barn had simply used what he had left. He should have taken a Sharpie pen and coloured the other live wire black and painted the yellow one white. Using standard colours helps whomever sees it down the road rather than being a hard rule. Using a volt metre is best but I used a plug from a lamp as a guide and that's how I discovered it. I then cut the power and did the changeover.  The adventures of home maintenance! HappyinHeels

[blueparrot]

Why is it I keep thinking this is Mike Holt's Code Forum?

[Puffer]

10 hours ago, at9 said:

...

When using cable for single phase applications where cores are live, it's mandatory to sleeve them in brown if the insulation isn't already brown. That's mainly for switched live and 2 way switching situations. I have very rarely seen this done.

I would have thought it obvious that floor area is related to diversity. No matter how many sockets you have in a given area, there's a practical limit to the number of high current appliances you're likely to use in that area. By allowing an unlimited number of sockets you can have plenty of sockets where you might need them without the expense of separate circuits. If you're going to allow an unlimited number of sockets then you have to impose some kind of limit, most sensibly done by specifiying area served. For commercial and industrial premises the designer may need to make his/her own calculations.

...

The regs themselves are complemented by commentaries and guides. Some published by the IET, others by 3rd parties. These often give the reasoning for regs as well as advice on practical ways to meet them. These days there are also forums where this sort of thing is debated. One item of interest in the new 18th Edition is the provision of arc fault detection: https://www.electrium.co.uk/18th-edition

Yes, sleeving is required as you say, and frequently omitted.   One can buy a brown/brown twin/earth cable for lighting circuits but I wonder if anyone ever uses it, especially as it is dearer than the standard brown/blue.   Last time I had my work (a completely new installation in refurbished premises) inspected and signed-off for Part P, the sparky had great glee in discovering my omission of a brown sleeve inside a ceiling pull-switch.   My only error, and he made the comment that he was surprised (and gratified) to find that I had sleeved all the other light switches before giving me a clean bill of health.   (Not always easy to find an obliging sparky who can and will certify third-party work - my bloke was NAPIT; I believe NICEIC members cannot do it.)

Your comments on area seem contradictory, although doubtless correct.   If there is a practical limit on the appliances needed and used simultaneously within any discrete area, there should be no need to specify the maximum area per circuit.   But I can see that a vast area (such as several floors of one house) might suggest if not require that too many items are likely to be in use at once.   Nevertheless, the breaker should do its job.

I'm well aware of the helpful explanatory info available away from the Regs, especially in forums.   My point was really that the Regs themselves can discourage compliance because too many lay people consult them (and only them) and find them either impenetrable or so strict that they are simply ignored.   But that's true of anything with the force of law, including speed limits!

Sorry if this thread has been hi-jacked for too long.   Maybe we should have a separate one for DIY and other construction-related matters?

[Pumped]

On 11/28/2018 at 12:42 AM, at9 said:

The US arrangements sound far too complicated. 

It isn't all all complicated when you deal with it daily. Most homes are just wired for lights and outlets at 120 volt, then add a clothes dryer at 240 volt and air conditioner. You wire the larger 240 loads as an individual circuit, so the breaker and wire is sized for the load. The USA allows home owners to do wiring in there own homes, so it can not be too terribly difficult. (although you should see some of the messes they create!)

The 208/240-460 volt three phase is commercial wiring and pretty much only seen there, but all the basic rules apply as for breaker and wire size.

[Heelster]

4 hours ago, Pumped said:

The USA allows home owners to do wiring in there own homes, so it can not be too terribly difficult.

I did my whole new home - - - !!

 

[mlroseplant]

15 hours ago, Pumped said:

It isn't all all complicated when you deal with it daily. Most homes are just wired for lights and outlets at 120 volt, then add a clothes dryer at 240 volt and air conditioner. You wire the larger 240 loads as an individual circuit, so the breaker and wire is sized for the load. The USA allows home owners to do wiring in there own homes, so it can not be too terribly difficult. (although you should see some of the messes they create!)

The 208/240-460 volt three phase is commercial wiring and pretty much only seen there, but all the basic rules apply as for breaker and wire size.

 

10 hours ago, Heelster said:

I did my whole new home - - - !!

 

I put a new service in my first home, basically because I couldn't find an available electrical contractor at the time. This was before I got into the trade, and was one of the several factors that led to my becoming an electrician. However, I went into the industrial side of things, and I absolutely hate messing with residential. It's boring and/or frustrating, depending on whether you're dealing with a new house or an old one.

I can see a certain amount of sense in the European/Asian setup of having basically just one system of approximately 240/415V. I did some reading to discover that the reason why North America uses 120V (used to be 110, many people still refer to it that way), and it seems we're still tied to the original 100V Edison DC lighting system. We'll never change now, but it doesn't matter much. The current system works. 120V is good enough for most things--our toasters and hair dryers work just fine, and 240V is available for the larger things like electric stoves/ovens, clothes dryers, water heaters, and air conditioners. I was going to let it go, but I feel the need to correct some misinformation. People often refer to the North American dual voltage setup as being "two phase." This is not correct. It is single phase, only the secondary transformer coil is split in half with the neutral or grounded conductor to create two possible 120V legs, and you'd better keep them distinct from each other in your wiring, unless you want to blow stuff up. This is completely different than "two phase," which does exist, but is very rare (I've never actually seen it in the field) because it was a stupid idea. There were lots of stupid ideas in the early days of electricity.

The biggest problem with the North American system is when you need 3-phase service at the small commercial level. Because the phases are 120º apart in the typical Y-type transformer wiring, when you add any two legs together, or all three for a 3-phase motor, you get 208V, rather than 240V. This is because you must multiply the base voltage, in this case 120V, by the square root of 3, due to its angle compared to the other two phases, rather than just simply doubling it as you might expect upon first blush. Single phase motors that are designed to run on 240V do not really like to use 208 AT ALL. Heating elements and other purely resistive loads don't care, but they are super inefficient at the lower voltage. There are several different ways to deal with this problem, but ongoing headache it is for small commercial installations. That's one of the differences between commercial and residential appliances here, besides the warranty conditions.

OK, Puffer's probably right. This excursion has been fun, but it's probably getting old for those who are not really interested in such things.

So I was shopping in Walmart the other day, wearing my Sam Edelman clogs, pictured below. These have turned out to be my favorite shoes of the season, and I'm glad that I have two pairs, in black and brown. It just so happens that it was snowing, and it was the first significant snow of the season. It turns out that the Edelmans are perfect for snow and ice, because they have a fairly aggressive sole, and they come stock with a tough rubber heel tip. We haven't gotten more than 3" of snow yet, so I've been able to get by with them so far.

At any rate, when I was checking out, one of the female employees, a 20-something, approached me and complimented my shoes, and also said she didn't see how I negotiated the weather conditions while wearing them. She said she liked to wear heels, but dared not do it in the snow. I held up one of my feet (while balancing on the other foot, unsupported--a trick I've perfected by purposeful practice), and showed her the lug sole, and assured her that it wasn't nearly as hard as it looked. I failed to mention that the one time I have actually fallen down while wearing heels, it was in that exact store under the same weather conditions. Well, I've learned a few things since then!

We had a short pleasant conversation about wearing heels, and then I was finished and on my way out the door. It is snowing as I write this, but it's not cold enough for much of it to stick, so I'm not planning on breaking out the boots just yet, and it's December 2! How long can I hold out?

[HappyinHeels]

Way to go mlroseplant!  Dashing through the snow in your clogs! No doubt about to mount your one-horse open sleigh?? Happy shopping season buddy. HinH

[Steve63130]

Hey, Mlroseplant! What's the big idea of hijacking your hijacked thread and getting back on topic? LOL

(Thank you for doing that, from all of us electrically and plumbingly challenged heelers. My most important tool is a smartphone!)

Steve

[pebblesf]

20 hours ago, mlroseplant said:

 

I put a new service in my first home, basically because I couldn't find an available electrical contractor at the time. This was before I got into the trade, and was one of the several factors that led to my becoming an electrician. However, I went into the industrial side of things, and I absolutely hate messing with residential. It's boring and/or frustrating, depending on whether you're dealing with a new house or an old one.

I can see a certain amount of sense in the European/Asian setup of having basically just one system of approximately 240/415V. I did some reading to discover that the reason why North America uses 120V (used to be 110, many people still refer to it that way), and it seems we're still tied to the original 100V Edison DC lighting system. We'll never change now, but it doesn't matter much. The current system works. 120V is good enough for most things--our toasters and hair dryers work just fine, and 240V is available for the larger things like electric stoves/ovens, clothes dryers, water heaters, and air conditioners. I was going to let it go, but I feel the need to correct some misinformation. People often refer to the North American dual voltage setup as being "two phase." This is not correct. It is single phase, only the secondary transformer coil is split in half with the neutral or grounded conductor to create two possible 120V legs, and you'd better keep them distinct from each other in your wiring, unless you want to blow stuff up. This is completely different than "two phase," which does exist, but is very rare (I've never actually seen it in the field) because it was a stupid idea. There were lots of stupid ideas in the early days of electricity.

The biggest problem with the North American system is when you need 3-phase service at the small commercial level. Because the phases are 120º apart in the typical Y-type transformer wiring, when you add any two legs together, or all three for a 3-phase motor, you get 208V, rather than 240V. This is because you must multiply the base voltage, in this case 120V, by the square root of 3, due to its angle compared to the other two phases, rather than just simply doubling it as you might expect upon first blush. Single phase motors that are designed to run on 240V do not really like to use 208 AT ALL. Heating elements and other purely resistive loads don't care, but they are super inefficient at the lower voltage. There are several different ways to deal with this problem, but ongoing headache it is for small commercial installations. That's one of the differences between commercial and residential appliances here, besides the warranty conditions.

OK, Puffer's probably right. This excursion has been fun, but it's probably getting old for those who are not really interested in such things.

So I was shopping in Walmart the other day, wearing my Sam Edelman clogs, pictured below. These have turned out to be my favorite shoes of the season, and I'm glad that I have two pairs, in black and brown. It just so happens that it was snowing, and it was the first significant snow of the season. It turns out that the Edelmans are perfect for snow and ice, because they have a fairly aggressive sole, and they come stock with a tough rubber heel tip. We haven't gotten more than 3" of snow yet, so I've been able to get by with them so far.

At any rate, when I was checking out, one of the female employees, a 20-something, approached me and complimented my shoes, and also said she didn't see how I negotiated the weather conditions while wearing them. She said she liked to wear heels, but dared not do it in the snow. I held up one of my feet (while balancing on the other foot, unsupported--a trick I've perfected by purposeful practice), and showed her the lug sole, and assured her that it wasn't nearly as hard as it looked. I failed to mention that the one time I have actually fallen down while wearing heels, it was in that exact store under the same weather conditions. Well, I've learned a few things since then!

We had a short pleasant conversation about wearing heels, and then I was finished and on my way out the door. It is snowing as I write this, but it's not cold enough for much of it to stick, so I'm not planning on breaking out the boots just yet, and it's December 2! How long can I hold out?

Believe it or not, I am interested in this electrical discussion....Just wish I knew a little more about it...I have done some wiring in my house, but also appreciate the importance of have a professional sometimes to keep me out of trouble.  I have rid the house of most of the darn "knob/tube" stuff, just one run of it left on the second floor...Was easy to get rid of trouble on the first floor, just come up from the basement....Easy to get rid of stuff on the third floor, just come down from the attic.  The rats nest is in the second floor ceiling...Somewhere there is a horrible junction that connects knob/tube to newer wiring...Electrical contractors come in and say they will just smash holes in the ceiling until the find the junction, and I realize damage is unavoidable.  But, I can't help feeling that there is a more efficient way of doing this....Like drilling a small hole, then peeking up inside with  an inspection light/scope....I guess I need to find a contractor that specializes in this sort of thing, but seems like most are more interested in big jobs....Had I life to do over, I would become and electrician and a plumber!  Hmmm, could probably get away with wearing some nice wader boots while doing the plumbing gig......

[p1ng74]

1 hour ago, pebblesf said:

The rats nest is in the second floor ceiling...Somewhere there is a horrible junction that connects knob/tube to newer wiring...Electrical contractors come in and say they will just smash holes in the ceiling until the find the junction, and I realize damage is unavoidable.  But, I can't help feeling that there is a more efficient way of doing this....

I found my junction boxes using a tone generator...