Master Resource: General Public Discussions of men in heels

[Cali]

I'll play @mlroseplant game.  The new trend in men's pants is shorter.  I hope the trend does not go to capri length.  I have gone from 34 inch length to 32, 30 and even 28. The shorter are easier to wear inside my boots. But I also like being able to show my heels more.

The shoes are a bit too much for even me, and I like platforms. Part of the reason is from the angle of the photo. The shoe is in the forefront and that makes it look even larger.  Would I wear that outfit? NO, I have better fashion sense. 

[Shyheels]

A zebra would have better fashion sense...

[Heelster]

On 4/14/2020 at 6:24 AM, ohnoberty said:

I'm no authority on fashion, many will confirm that, but I agree that this outfit by Marc is bad.

Who knows though, as a fashion designer he might be starting a new trend (don't think it will catch on).

Ummmmm - - How about ""NO""

[kneehighs]

Victor Ayala seems to maintain social relationships while wearing heels.  I think he's based in Mexico City and is possibly a photographer by profession.  It's not so much the value in his outfit that appeals to me, but the inspirational value that he incorporates wearing heels into his social life.

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by kneehighs

[Bubba136]

There is taste and there is bad taste It’s precisely this sort of display that gives male high heel wears  a derogatory reputation.  I would never admit that I even knew who this guy was.  Well, they say: “ to each his own”,  but this, in my mind, is just downright disgusting.

[kneehighs]

55 minutes ago, Bubba136 said:

There is taste and there is bad taste It’s precisely this sort of display that gives male high heel wears  a derogatory reputation.  I would never admit that I even knew who this guy was.  Well, they say: “ to each his own”,  but this, in my mind, is just downright disgusting.

I don't think his status will suffer much despite the haters.  Here he is with a Playboy Playmate.  Haters gonna hate.

EDIT: by status I mean his relationships (despite wearing heels).  At the end of the day, love and relationships matter more than haters.  Plus, low odds his income will be affected by haters either--creatives enjoy more economic freedom to be different.  I'm happy for him.

 

 

Edited April 22, 2020 by kneehighs

[SF]

shave your legs at least or wear some long pants.....   ecchhh......    sf

[mlroseplant]

13 hours ago, kneehighs said:

I don't think his status will suffer much despite the haters.  Here he is with a Playboy Playmate.  Haters gonna hate.

EDIT: by status I mean his relationships (despite wearing heels).  At the end of the day, love and relationships matter more than haters.  Plus, low odds his income will be affected by haters either--creatives enjoy more economic freedom to be different.  I'm happy for him.

 

 

I'm happy for him too! I am very slow to criticize another's fashion choices when mine are a little out there as well. I realize that you enjoy finding people whose style is unusual, perhaps bordering on the bizarre, and sharing their images with us. There is nothing wrong with that, and there is nothing wrong with people's reactions to it, be they positive or negative. If I look at it as art, that is the whole point, to get a reaction, to create an emotion. That's fine. I have no problem with that. However, I'm going for something a little bit different in my daily life, and I dare say so are you, maybe you could call it "applied art?" Haha

I am not out to hang around with Playboy Playmates or make some kind of appearance. I of course dress for myself, but you know who I'm after? Do you know who I'm really trying to convince? It's the fat, balding middle aged men and the gray-haired old ladies that some on this board complain about constantly. Instead of dismissing them, I try to interact with them. It's the force of my personality and the kindness of my actions that makes ordinary people say, "Yeah, he's a little strange, but you know, he's all right." To me, THAT is what will change people's minds over the course of time, not some guy on Instagram, which, if we're honest, is pretty unrepresentative of the real world. It's guys like you and me, and Bubba, living our lives not for shock value, but because we just like the style. I think that's why Bubba reacted so violently to this picture, it's because this picture and our life experience are so far removed from one another.

[kneehighs]

1 hour ago, mlroseplant said:

I am not out to hang around with Playboy Playmates or make some kind of appearance. I of course dress for myself, but you know who I'm after? Do you know who I'm really trying to convince? It's the fat, balding middle aged men and the gray-haired old ladies that some on this board complain about constantly. Instead of dismissing them, I try to interact with them. It's the force of my personality and the kindness of my actions that makes ordinary people say, "Yeah, he's a little strange, but you know, he's all right." To me, THAT is what will change people's minds over the course of time, not some guy on Instagram, which, if we're honest, is pretty unrepresentative of the real world. It's guys like you and me, and Bubba, living our lives not for shock value, but because we just like the style. I think that's why Bubba reacted so violently to this picture, it's because this picture and our life experience are so far removed from one another.

I agree with you on the italicized.  Historically, assimilation within our local tribes is and has always been realistic.  "why aren't you wearing your heels today" is a common level achieved among veteran members.

From my end, the sales volume achieved through social media influence proves social media can change behavior, especially among GenZ and Millennials.  Less so among Gen X and Baby Boomers.

Imagine a newbie coming here though and reading the hateful comments? It's basically saying, "you can't sit with me".  How does that align with the purpose hhplace has carved for itself over the last 2 decades?  

 

 

[Cali]

As a boomer, there I admitted it, I don't pay attention to very much of social media. But I have also seen how social media can influence opinions (and politics).  That guy is hairy...everywhere. If he where to shave, where should he start and where should he stop?

I did not shave or wax until I needed to tape my legs to do certain activities. Now after several years of waxing a few times a year, I have almost no hair on my legs.  (The women who wax them are jealous!  )  But I still have hair on my arms.  Just wish I could convince some of the hair follicles to relocate to the top of my head.

Edited April 24, 2020 by Cali

[p1ng74]

As a fashion community, I do find it interesting to discuss the underlying aesthetics of things we see beyond the initial reaction of "this is bad".  For this guy, perhaps all the facial hair and everything generally presents a  kind of rugged male look, and is just so jarring compared to nude high heel pumps that are associated with a more delicate and formal look.  That said, it's just an initial reaction - people have said that the things I wear are jarring too, so I'm trying to keep an open mind.  

Edited April 23, 2020 by p1ng74

[fashionablefun]

8 hours ago, kneehighs said:

I agree with you on the italicized.  Historically, assimilation within our local tribes is and has always been realistic.  "why aren't you wearing your heels today" is a common level achieved among veteran members.

From my end, the sales volume achieved through social media influence proves social media can change behavior, especially among GenZ and Millennials.  Less so among Gen X and Baby Boomers.

Imagine a newbie coming here though and reading the hateful comments? It's basically saying, "you can't sit with me".  How does that align with the purpose hhplace has carved for itself over the last 2 decades?  

 

 

I agree regarding the need and importance of an overall tolerant attitude. There should be a wide level of acceptance of "unusual" behavior -- in society in general, put particularly in a forum such as this, which by its very nature is founded on the idea of "unusual" fashion. 

[Heelster]

On 4/22/2020 at 6:12 PM, Bubba136 said:

There is taste and there is bad taste It’s precisely this sort of display that gives male high heel wears  a derogatory reputation.  I would never admit that I even knew who this guy was.  Well, they say: “ to each his own”,  but this, in my mind, is just downright disgusting.

I may not have liked the style mix of one guy - - It's not for me.

Victor - - OK my legs ain't that hairy, but he has a ways to go to get to my beard (especially with the lockdowns), and my hair is getting really shaggy. I look like I'm more Viking than Santa Clause. May even look into beard beeds soon since I now have to wear masks to work. 'That' would freak out the locals, but not nearly as bad as my walking in town in high heels.

In my real world, I don't expect to see men wearing high heels as being commonplace - - Not gonna happen in my lifetime. Victor is pretty well dress compaired to the examples of male fashion I get to see, and I've seen some really bad fashions lately. Imagine a 50ish guy with a Rumpstilskin beard, bandana, Threadbare pajama pants, crocks and a t-shirt that looks like it should have been a paint rag - - and he's wallking around the grocery store - - That's the new norm for me lately, and that makes me look real good in a pair of JS booties and flaired jeans overtop.

My point I guess is this. We may not like something specific in another persons styles, but in both cases, they at least tried to present themselves in a manor that indicated they al least cared about what they wore and how they presented themselves. That's something I don't see much of except for some in the business world.

[Puffer]

8 hours ago, fashionablefun said:

I agree regarding the need and importance of an overall tolerant attitude. There should be a wide level of acceptance of "unusual" behavior -- in society in general, put particularly in a forum such as this, which by its very nature is founded on the idea of "unusual" fashion. 

There is a big difference between (a) tolerance of 'unusual behaviour' (in the sense of refraining from persecution, or worse) that is not in itself directly damaging or threatening to society as a whole; and (b) refraining from passing considered, if perhaps strongly condemnatory, comment about such behaviour or the manner in which it is presented.   I, for example,  consider the 'outfit' recently featured here (and some others likewise) to be ridiculous, borderline embarrassing and damaging to the spirit of this forum (as the majority of its progressive members would regard it) and am perfectly entitled to express that opinion, as I now do.   But I'm not going to assault those who have the nerve to dress in such a  manner or burn their houses down.   (That said, the present lockdown does have the merit of keeping such outfits away from public view!)

[mlroseplant]

20 hours ago, kneehighs said:

I agree with you on the italicized.  Historically, assimilation within our local tribes is and has always been realistic.  "why aren't you wearing your heels today" is a common level achieved among veteran members.

From my end, the sales volume achieved through social media influence proves social media can change behavior, especially among GenZ and Millennials.  Less so among Gen X and Baby Boomers.

Imagine a newbie coming here though and reading the hateful comments? It's basically saying, "you can't sit with me".  How does that align with the purpose hhplace has carved for itself over the last 2 decades?  

 

 

It's funny you should mention it, because I'm not really worried about Millennials and Gen Z. I pretty much got them covered (or they pretty much got me covered, depending on your point of view), acceptance-wise. None of my son's friends (Gen Z), either male or female have a problem with me, and boy was his mother sure worried about it when he was still in school. It turned out to be a non-problem. None of my wife's family cousins (Millennial) have a problem with me, and they're in conservative Vietnam. I'm not saying they don't regard me as their "weird uncle," but they range from enthusiastic to at least keeping their mouth shut. It's people my age (Gen X) and older who are tougher nuts to crack, in my experience.

To be fair, I don't think we make "hateful" comments on this forum. The closest we come is, "Holy smokes, that looks terrible." Is that hateful, or just a fashion opinion? And usually, we go on to say why we think it looks terrible. And then some people disagree with that opinion. I think people wanting to explore HHP get that. I don't think we are forced to accept every outfit presented on here as being equal to the other, and it's not like we are saying we hate the person wearing a given outfit. What if Mr. Ayala had been wearing Crocs? We'd all go "Yuck!", and no one would even question that.

[SF]

The words "hateful" and "hater" is used with such cavalier now days that it no longer has any real meaning.  Just my "hateful" two cents from a regular guy who likes to wear high heels.  ...  Smile....    sf

[kneehighs]

9 hours ago, mlroseplant said:

To be fair, I don't think we make "hateful" comments on this forum. The closest we come is, "Holy smokes, that looks terrible." Is that hateful, or just a fashion opinion?

In general it's not the norm.  

Debating definitions of 'hate' without a standard by which to resolve which definition is most suitable is a bit fruitless. (which definition is best?  Broad or narrow, policy making solution or hypothesis testing solution = endless discussion).  

Words like "derogatory reputation.  I would never admit that I even knew who this guy was.  Well, they say: “ to each his own”,  but this, in my mind, is just downright disgusting."  arouse hate (intense passionate dislike)

Don't sit with me.  You give me a derogatory reputation.  I don't even know who you are.  Your style is disgusting. 

 

Edited April 24, 2020 by kneehighs

[Shyheels]

Hate and disapproval, even strong disapproval, are two entirely different things. Hate requires an investment in emotion. I dislike the guys look and outfit. I think it is trashy, silly, something of a parody and done for effect. That is an immediate visceral reaction. Five minutes later, or less, he’s forgotten. That’s hardly hate.

Edited April 24, 2020 by Shyheels

[kneehighs]

Some parallels to think about.  

Edwardian Era.  Upstairs. Downstairs.  British Manor House cultural stratification.

Titanic sinks.  Lots of 1st Class survivors.  Many more casualties and 3rd class deaths.  Public outrage ensued.

Titanic symbolized everything wrong with class division.

British Manor House Aristocracy fades.  Doesn't go bankrupt, but retains ceremonial value.

COVID is in many ways like the Titanic.  It's exposing what's broken.

Celebrity, Hollywood, luxury travel, restaurants, Quantitative Easing, Cantillon Effects of money printing. (Manor House upstairs beneficiaries)

$10 Trillion in US stimulus between fiscal and monetary [congress + fed](Manor House Upstairs).  $300 Billion in direct stimulus for taxpayers (Manor House downstairs).

 

That's 3% for taxpayers. (Manor House working class).  Do we also get a modern day David Lloyd George?

 

Will the modern beneficiaries of class stratification also fade?  

 

Class division, or the sense that your style is disgusting and gives me a derogatory reputation may also fade in the New Post Covid Era.  Whether it's labeled hate or not.

 

Something to think about.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Shyheels]

Huh?

[Puffer]

1 hour ago, kneehighs said:

...

Something to think about.

 

Somewhere in that garbled diatribe I think there may well be a nugget or two of good and logical sense, but try as I might, locating it eludes me.   Too many buzzwords (If that is still the fashionable term - you will know, kneehighs) put together without enough thought for the intelligent reader's comprehension.   You are entitled to your views, however obliquely expressed, just as much as someone else is entitled to wear weird clothes - but forgive those of us who don't appreciate their subtlety. 

I'm rather reminded of this MP (Diane Abbott) who mercifully is no longer shadow Home Secretary.   Thank goodness she can have no direct involvement in Coronvirus mitigation:

[at9]

Our present Home Secretary is no stranger to garbles. I think she's been isolated for the duration.

[JeffB]

I find Victor to be interesting. So he doesn't shave his legs and sports a considerable beard, that's his choice, the look he chooses to present, who's to say his appearance is more palatable to the public than someone like me who wears women's clothes from head to toe. I say, to each his own.

Edited April 26, 2020 by JeffB

[p1ng74]

4 hours ago, Puffer said:

Somewhere in that garbled diatribe I think there may well be a nugget or two of good and logical sense, but try as I might, locating it eludes me.   Too many buzzwords (If that is still the fashionable term - you will know, kneehighs) put together without enough thought for the intelligent reader's comprehension.   You are entitled to your views, however obliquely expressed, just as much as someone else is entitled to wear weird clothes - but forgive those of us who don't appreciate their subtlety. 

It’s like a formula we have been taught to express being open-minded, to view life experiences through the lens of class, gender, and race. 

Edited April 25, 2020 by p1ng74

[Puffer]

22 minutes ago, p1ng74 said:

It’s like a formula we have been taught to express being open-minded, to view life experiences through the lens of class, gender, and race. 

Sorry - I don't understand!   Are you agreeing with me, or not, or saying something else entirely?

[p1ng74]

4 minutes ago, Puffer said:

Sorry - I don't understand!   Are you agreeing with me, or not, or saying something else entirely?

LOL I am empathizing with your initial reaction and confusion, and trying to explain his train of thought, though I don’t agree with it.  I guess it’s not helpful, sorry.  

[mlroseplant]

It seems to me that this discussion has gone way off the rails. On my morning constitutional, I had thought about some things I would like to write, but then after logging on and seeing all the replies, I scrapped that plan, so here is Plan B.

Have we gotten to the point where we are not allowed to criticize anything without being criticized for it? I actually took the time to look through Mr. Ayala's Instagram, and you know, it's not that bad. I think Kneehighs picked THE worst possible photo to share as far as the WTF factor. I'm not sure if that was purposeful or not. Would I ever personally want to present myself in this way? Hell no. For one thing, I don't have the proper social circle to do so and get by with it. Second, I don't want to look unusual, I want to look great! Third, I do feel like I'm an ambassador and advocate to my community for expansion of tolerance in men's style. It is not my main motivation, but the thought is with me fairly constantly. I cannot be effective in this role if I don't conform to at least some of the standards of "normalcy." Many people do not have this sense of obligation, they are just doing whatever they want no matter how outlandish, and they will always be marginalized because of it. That is their choice. I'm mainstream, right here in Middle America, baby!

10 minutes ago, p1ng74 said:

LOL I am empathizing with your initial reaction and confusion, and trying to explain his train of thought, though I don’t agree with it.  I guess it’s not helpful, sorry.  

Haha, I knew what you meant. Language is an imperfect means of communication, even in the best of circumstances.

[kneehighs]

9 hours ago, Puffer said:

Somewhere in that garbled diatribe I think there may well be a nugget or two of good and logical sense, but try as I might, locating it eludes me.   Too many buzzwords (If that is still the fashionable term - you will know, kneehighs) put together without enough thought for the intelligent reader's comprehension.   You are entitled to your views, however obliquely expressed, just as much as someone else is entitled to wear weird clothes - but forgive those of us who don't appreciate their subtlety. 

I'm rather reminded of this MP (Diane Abbott) who mercifully is no longer shadow Home Secretary.   Thank goodness she can have no direct involvement in Coronvirus mitigation:

Actually happy to see you use a meme, a modern version of communication.  This is a discussion forum.  It's free.  It's not for profit and it's not for politics.  I'm not a journalist.  I don't have to express myself perfectly on every thought the very first time I put a thought on hhplace.  If you have a question, just ask.

I think history might rhyme.  The effects of COVID on the world could be like the effects of the sinking of the Titanic.  The Titanic symbolized what was wrong with Edwardian Era Manor House class stratification.  Many first class passengers survived (upstairs privilege), but many third class passengers died (downstairs working class).  People were pissed. It set a cultural foundation for World War I, where the aristocracy lead the Brits in WWI.  They managed wartime strategy like they managed a Manor House (upstairs/downstairs).  Death tolls went through the roof and the aristocracy faded.  My history details may be imperfect, so please, have some patience as I'm working from memory.

In many ways, the sinking of the Titanic is like the sinking caused by COVID.  The US Government stimulus has created some 10 Trillion USD, but only 3% of that is going directly to the taxpayers (downstairs "working" class).  The Paycheck Protection Program has also created questionable results.  Manor House type upstairs relationships have benefitted a handful of companies with good relationships with bank executives while a majority of small businesses in America are struggling to stay afloat (just like the third class in the sinking of the Titanic).  The US Fed balance sheet is also going through the roof.  Those closest to the FED get the freshly printed money (upstairs).  The buying power of their Dollars is 100% intact because they're the first to spend it.  That's the definition of Cantillon Effects.  Those furthest away from where the money gets injected into the economy get their purchasing power diluted (treated like the third class in the Titanic).  Today's Oligarchs enjoy privilege much like the upstairs aristocracy did during the Edwardian Era Manor House era.

It's a Brexit era now.  Trump nationalism.  Japan funding 2 Billion for companies to move supply chains out of China.  Without some trustworthy Proof Of Health, how are big Hollywood Production films going to get shot?  Border crossings right now are a nationalist dream come true.  And with fears of a second wave of the virus coming in, which nation is going to eagerly accept large box office productions into their country?  Negotiations are going to be a challenge, no doubt.  The foundation from which Hollywood and celebrity keep their value to the masses will be tested.

Again, just something to think about. 

4 hours ago, mlroseplant said:

It seems to me that this discussion has gone way off the rails. On my morning constitutional, I had thought about some things I would like to write, but then after logging on and seeing all the replies, I scrapped that plan, so here is Plan B.

Have we gotten to the point where we are not allowed to criticize anything without being criticized for it? I actually took the time to look through Mr. Ayala's Instagram, and you know, it's not that bad. I think Kneehighs picked THE worst possible photo to share as far as the WTF factor. I'm not sure if that was purposeful or not. Would I ever personally want to present myself in this way? Hell no. For one thing, I don't have the proper social circle to do so and get by with it. Second, I don't want to look unusual, I want to look great! Third, I do feel like I'm an ambassador and advocate to my community for expansion of tolerance in men's style. It is not my main motivation, but the thought is with me fairly constantly. I cannot be effective in this role if I don't conform to at least some of the standards of "normalcy." Many people do not have this sense of obligation, they are just doing whatever they want no matter how outlandish, and they will always be marginalized because of it. That is their choice. I'm mainstream, right here in Middle America, baby!

Thanks for your respectful reply.  Thanks for taking the time to understand.  Thanks for taking the time to actually look at Victors Instagram.  I didn't pick a photo to highlight his style.  I picked a photo to highlight his social life while wearing heels.  In the 2 decades I've been a member here,  I've read numerous threads where heelers venture out into the country at night to wear heels. They literally walk around the highway rest stops, all alone,  at 3 am because that's where they feel safest.  Many wear heels only at home, all alone, because they don't feel deserving of social relationships.  There is an aura of secrecy and aloneness of wearing heels that many experience. It doesn't have to be that way.  

If all I shared was aristocratic upstairs manor house level style, there'd literally be no content.  And that would mean less view clicks, less time spent on the site, and less ad revenue for the owner (not implying the owner maintains the site for large profit either).  

 

 

Edited April 25, 2020 by kneehighs
Added reference to Oligarcy and link to Second Wave of deaths from Spanish Flu

[p1ng74]

4 hours ago, kneehighs said:

I didn't pick a photo to highlight his style.  I picked a photo to highlight his social life while wearing heels.  In the 2 decades I've been a member here,  I've read numerous threads where heelers venture out into the country at night to wear heels. They literally walk around the highway rest stops, all alone,  at 3 am because that's where they feel safest.  Many wear heels only at home, all alone, because they don't feel deserving of social relationships.  There is an aura of secrecy and aloneness of wearing heels that many experience. It doesn't have to be that way.  

If all I shared was aristocratic upstairs manor house level style, there'd literally be no content.  And that would mean less view clicks, less time spent on the site, and less ad revenue for the owner (not implying the owner maintains the site for large profit either).  

 

 

I agree that those who feel held back from ever wearing heels in public social settings are missing out on something very fun, from my experience.  And now that so many are restricted in where they can go, it just shows how we should really seize opportunities when we have them, as they may not come again.  

I like that we are sharing any and all examples of men wearing heels in public social life here, as the overall spirit is something we all support.  But any newbie here (which I think I am in many ways) can also see that when it comes to different styles of men in heels it is not one size fits all.  If one wants to wear heels in public, looking like Victor is certainly not the only way, and I think we should allow people to express that this is not their personal style, as they figure out what their own personal style is.  

Edited April 25, 2020 by p1ng74
Typo

[Bubba136]

Hey KH,  I am not a hater.  As long as we’ve  known each other you should know that.  I really could care less about this guy, his fashion style or his  conquests. Everyone has their opinions and I voiced mine.  Just because we all use different yardsticks to measure success or elicit admiration from others, it isn’t any of my business if someone wants to genuflect in total adoration before this guy and express their complete acceptance of his lifestyle, I have no problem with their acceptance.  However, to me it directly reflects their values and tells me all I want know about them.  “nuff said.”