Master Resource: General Public Discussions of men in heels

[kneehighs]

24 minutes ago, Shyheels said:

Good instagram engagement etc reflects an appeal to a certain specific demographic. While that demographic seems large and all encompassing to those who are within it - it's their whole world, after all - it represents a only tiny portion of the world at large. To the world at large these images and contexts serve only to deepen, harden and perpetuate already stronly held stereotypes.

 

Good Instagram engagement (comments, likes, regrams = engagement) falls under 400 MILLION MONTHLY ACTIVE users.  This is not "tiny portion of the world at large" Source: AdWeek.com April 4, 2016

 Second, recent Pew Reseach suggests that Millenials outnumber every other marketing segment.  Source: PewResearch.org

Acceptance of men in heels from "the world at large" is already embraced by millenials.  Just because there's not evidence of change from within the Silent Generation or Baby Boomer, doesn't mean that change isn't happening. 

[Shyheels]

13 minutes ago, kneehighs said:

 

Good Instagram engagement (comments, likes, regrams = engagement) falls under 400 MILLION MONTHLY ACTIVE users.  This is not "tiny portion of the world at large" Source: AdWeek.com April 4, 2016

 Second, recent Pew Reseach suggests that Millenials outnumber every other marketing segment.  Source: PewResearch.org

Acceptance of men in heels from "the world at large" is already embraced by millenials.  Just because there's not evidence of change from within the Silent Generation or Baby Boomer, doesn't mean that change isn't happening. 

Going from 'hundreds of likes' as per your earlier post, to an assumption of 400 million is quite a leap, as is the assumption that based on a few hundreds of likes and/or comments that an entire generation has embraced men in heels. They haven't.

[kneehighs]

1 hour ago, Shyheels said:

Going from 'hundreds of likes' as per your earlier post, to an assumption of 400 million is quite a leap, as is the assumption that based on a few hundreds of likes and/or comments that an entire generation has embraced men in heels. They haven't.

You are putting FALSE words into my mouth.  I said "hundreds of positive comments".  I said thousands of likes.  The data was provided to suggest the potential reach of the Instagram engagement is in no way a "tiny portion of the world at large".   To prove reach and engagement, one would either pay a social media scraping service or manually count the numbers.  

I'm just clarifying that change is occurring.  That change can be put into perspective by marketing language.  That change is occurring within the millennial generation.  It's evident by supportive commerce and supportive media.  

Edited June 19, 2016 by kneehighs

[Puffer]

1 hour ago, kneehighs said:

You are putting FALSE words into my mouth.  I said "hundreds of positive comments".  I said thousands of likes.  The data was provided to suggest the potential reach of the Instagram engagement is in no way a "tiny portion of the world at large".   To prove reach and engagement, one would either pay a social media scraping service or manually count the numbers.  

I'm just clarifying that change is occurring.  That change can be put into perspective by marketing language.  That change is occurring within the millennial generation.  It's evident by supportive commerce and supportive media.  

I'm still trying to work out what on earth you are talking about and what exactly 'instagram engagement' means (if anything).   Most of us here speak English (of a sort) - not the 'marketing language' of a parallel universe.   I can only repeat that these weird and extreme fashions are unlikely to appeal to many men-in-the-street - and the association made in the article (whether intended or not) does male heel-wearing no favours.   But I do understand why you may be excited by all this; I am certainly not.

[Shyheels]

12 hours ago, kneehighs said:

You are putting FALSE words into my mouth.  I said "hundreds of positive comments".  I said thousands of likes.  The data was provided to suggest the potential reach of the Instagram engagement is in no way a "tiny portion of the world at large".   To prove reach and engagement, one would either pay a social media scraping service or manually count the numbers.  

I'm just clarifying that change is occurring.  That change can be put into perspective by marketing language.  That change is occurring within the millennial generation.  It's evident by supportive commerce and supportive media.  

The potential for reaching millions or billions does not equate to a reality of doing so. I might write a novel, put it on the web, charge ten cents per read and by tomorrow night be richer than JK Rowling, but that splendid idea and theory does not mean it will happen in practice. In fact you could bet very heavily against it - if you could find anyone to bet on the other side.

I do not know where these millennials are that you speak of - the ones who are embracing the notion of men in heels and to whom the images, contexts and references mentioned above are wildly exciting and eliciting change.  I can only assume they exist in the ether and in the ether alone, where it is easy for anybody to assume any identity they please and say what they like.

I live near London, one of the world cosmopolitan cities, and often go up there and I have never seen a single man, in any demographic, wearing heels.  Nor have I ever seen any on my travels, and I travel a great deal for work - more than 100 countries on every continent and to all 50 US states - but not once have I ever seen a guy in heels, or tall boots for that matter (other than equestrians, or hunters and fishing guides wearing the LL Bean type). And I spend many idle hours in airports and train stations people watching.  But none. Not one, Not ever. Nada.

Changes may well be happening in the bound-up world of men's fashion and footwear, but androgynous looks and Freddie Mercury styling and references to homosexuality - however oblique - are not going to be ringing in any mainstream changes, however many times they get Instagrammed.    

[Heelster]

Exactly @Shyheels - As long as heels are associated with homosexuality, they will never make it with regular guys. 

[Gudulitooo]

Well I don't say kneehighs is not in a parallel universe.

The underlying mechanism is simple.

Present (or near past) situation : Why the hell would store owner propose heels also in the mens aisle ? That would require to invest in stocks of shoes that would not be sold, because the vast majority of men do not buy heels. why ? Because previous generations of men have not liked heels, and young men are more or less adopting the model their parents gave them, so the thing perpetuates itself. Even homosexual guys don't buy these shoes, because there is no need for them to look like women. They want to look like men, and general men don't wear heels. Sometimes they want to look like homosexual men so that they this helps them finding their loved one. Still men.

 

Updated situation when "early adopters" men start (hopefully) to wear heels, even only to go clubbing or walking runways: Store owner now have a reason to buy heels in men sizes and propose them : there is a chance they are sold, beacause demographic numbers for these "early adopters",  may not be as tiny as numbers for hhplace forum. In order for store owner to be sure of this, they need to have an analytical approach that is able to translate this into market segments, targets, clear indicators, trends, able to show a "business case". That is what Kneehighs does, giving understandable clues.

 

Updated situation a few years later: regular men now can have a try and buy heels in their aisle without being shy, because the image is becoming more and more usual. New versions of the shoes have appeared that soften the look.

 

You can change "early adopters" by "homosexual men" or "fashion conscious rich men" or "hard rock star", the result is the same only if the group is large enough.

Thus IMHO, should "homosexual men" play the role of "early adopters", it would not be that bad.

 Many clothes worn today as mainstream by regular men were sported in LGBT clubs (and on the streets leading to them) one decade before : e.g. tight fitting clothes.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Gudulitooo

[Shyheels]

Even if everything you say is gospel, emphasising and underscoring a perceived link to homosexuality is hardly going to put heels for men on the fast track to mainstream acceptance is it?

Edited June 20, 2016 by Shyheels

[Gudulitooo]

I don't know.

According to well known stand up humorist Anthony Kavanagh, main stream straight guys' girls ask their guys to show all characteristics that homosexual men stereotypically have in his sketch "les femmes ont le dessus" ("ladies, today you want your man to be beautiful, funny, educated, intelligent, macho but not too much, muscular but not too much, attentive, gentle, polite, sensitive, a homo or what ?")

 

[Shyheels]

You seriously think that emphasising a perceived link to homosexuality is going to be a selling point to get mainstream men interested in, or accepting of, wearing heels? Seriously?

Edited June 20, 2016 by Shyheels

[robbiehhw]

Vogue was possibly guilty of making a mistake that many do in society: Confusing what people wear with whom they like.

Now this may be understandable if the designers were using their fashion as statement for pride etc. and it seems they were from the rainbow scarves. In addition to instagram, i would add Tumblr as a good place to see the shift in culture. The audience is younger and a lot more accepting of diversity, this is why brands jump on those networks, because their buying power is growing. Look at some of the other platforms out there frequented Youtube, gamer sites, whatsapp, weChat, Vine etc. The list is mind boggling at times.

Look the younger folks in western cultures (add to that China and Japan also) are becoming way more accepting of diversity and non-binary sexual preference. Pride festivals worldwide are getting more and more crowded every year.

So yes the world is changing and we have likely reached the tipping point and beyond, where more and more men and women smile when they see the rainbow. This makes it exploitable my marketing ( whether that is a good or bad thing, i will leave to your perspective). You will see a higher and higher percentage of the population gay or not identifying as a binary sexual preference, gender or identifying as transgender. This can be confusing to some because they are distinct and often unrelated, but there you have it. Is there an upper limit to this trend? Who knows but it has been a trend that has increased and picked up momentum over my entire lifetime.

So yes, that sort of instagram post will likely bring in more fashion changes. More so with the younger demographic. Finally our understanding of what is "mainstream" and what mainstream will accept may be somewhat biased as we age. I've often heard it said men often get stuck into whatever ideas about the world were around their circle of influence at about age 35, this includes fashion, and the mainstream is likely shifting out from under that understanding.

 

 

 

Edited June 21, 2016 by robbiehhw

[Gudulitooo]

On 20/6/2016 at 4:53 PM, Shyheels said:

You seriously think that emphasising a perceived link to homosexuality is going to be a selling point to get mainstream men interested in, or accepting of, wearing heels? Seriously?

I say that perceiving a link to a huge minority, promising real sale volumes, is certainly comforting sellers to add models to their mens department.

When it is in the mens department, mainstream acceptance may change, or not. But hardly before.

Also, how the hell could something "put heels for men on the fast track to mainstream acceptance" ? For example, smartphones were on a fast track to mainstream acceptance, but the added value of carrying such a thing is evident, both functionnaly and socially. What could drive a fast lane mainstream acceptance for heels ?

[Gudulitooo]

I have found this review

http://footwearnews.com/2016/fashion/designers/mens-heels-fall-2016-fashion-trends-video-219313/

 

[kneehighs]

12 hours ago, Gudulitooo said:

I have found this review

http://footwearnews.com/2016/fashion/designers/mens-heels-fall-2016-fashion-trends-video-219313/

 

Excellent resource.  Footwear news is widely regarded as the fashion industry insider source for authoritative news coverage.  I met with their Fashion Director once at the Soho House.  Brought up the topic of men wearing heels.  I can't remember the words she used, but she was definitely emotionally positive about it.  

For the last 15 years, this forum has consistently said that once media and commerce start showing men in heels, then the seeds for change at scale will exist.  Social Media and it's various channels have become a new part of that media.  Whether that scaled acceptance becomes reality or not is a different story.  I know that for a start up, the first question I ask myself is "where will I find my customers?" The second question I ask is "What product will I sell them first?"  And the third "How much will I charge for it?"  

So I look for clues.  Social Media gives consumer sentiment clues.  For instance, this post on Twitter had 330 retweets with 330 likes. This post had 1,115 retweets and 1,335 likes.   Whether all these people would pay $700 for a designer pair of men in heels is another story all together.  But it certainly shows an open mindedness towards men in heels not enjoyed by this forum 15 years ago.  Other clues like this article on Refinery 29 give more.  Then I go deeper into social media analytics.  

Unfortunately, I just don't have time to create a Pitch Deck for Venture Capital Financing of a men in heels line.  There's not enough upside profit.  Nor time to explain how powerful of consumer driving force social media is--especially among millennials.  I just know it's true.  No matter what the naysayers say.  Intragenerational change among Millenials is happening.  It's symbolized by Social Media engagement among Millennials.  I'll be looking for intergenerational change among Millenials and Gen-Z soon too.

But I will end with this.  Selfridges did spend money on a gender neutral pop up store in London: A-Gender.  The review by Dazed is here.  And every single time I'm in London and Paris, I always see a man wearing high heels.  Always.  Everywhere.  Everytime.  And highly influential international designers that all represent different aesthetics have recently retailed men in heels.   Saint Laurent. Rick Owens, Hood By Air.  Typcially, fast fashion takes their cues from the runway.  Yet, we don't see Zara or J. Crew carrying men in heels.  

So I'll just enjoy my conviction that Millenial engagement via social media channels is proof that some change is occuring, even if others can't see it for themself.

 

Edited June 23, 2016 by kneehighs

[Gudulitooo]

Kneehighs,

3 hours ago, kneehighs said:

once media and commerce start showing men in heels, then the seeds for change at scale will exist.

I could never have said it better !

But a few years ago you also insisted on the fact that being confronted to the reality of a man wearing heels was a completely different and mind opening experience that to look at a picture. How do you evolve from the former assertion to the latter ? Or is there no relation ?

3 hours ago, kneehighs said:

So I look for clues.  Social Media gives consumer sentiment clues.  For instance, this post on Twitter had 330 retweets with 330 likes. This post had 1,115 retweets and 1,335 likes.  

I agree with the first part only, looking for clues is the basic to gather a strong business plan. Yet if you finally only find clues in social media, which are still more virtual than real to me, then it is really disappointing isn't it ? Exactly like what you said before: the reality of something is much more effective than only pictures and discussions about the imagined thing.

Even with the picture on one's screen, one has still to imagine the life with it.  That's why I found social media virtual because the people on the pictures do not usually face a real day life with its gruesome urban reality : shitty and bumpy streets, drivers that do not look where they steer, long and speeding walks to reach the metro in time only to discover you are sweating like never (especially guys), or to look after your children in their "no" phase, after your teenager, etc. etc; and even less suburban reality, and even less country side reality, and even less etc. etc. etc. And I am sure I have it false (I worsen).

3 hours ago, kneehighs said:

Whether all these people would pay $700 for a designer pair of men in heels is another story

That is why I started this thread. to which you answer here, thank you.

 

Edited June 23, 2016 by Gudulitooo

[kneehighs]

15 hours ago, Gudulitooo said:

 

But a few years ago you also insisted on the fact that being confronted to the reality of a man wearing heels was a completely different and mind opening experience that to look at a picture. How do you evolve from the former assertion to the latter ? Or is there no relation ?

I agree with the first part only, looking for clues is the basic to gather a strong business plan. Yet if you finally only find clues in social media, which are still more virtual than real to me, then it is really disappointing isn't it ? Exactly like what you said before: the reality of something is much more effective than only pictures and discussions about the imagined thing.

Even with the picture on one's screen, one has still to imagine the life with it.  That's why I found social media virtual because the people on the pictures do not usually face a real day life with its gruesome urban reality : shitty and bumpy streets, drivers that do not look where they steer, long and speeding walks to reach the metro in time only to discover you are sweating like never (especially guys), or to look after your children in their "no" phase, after your teenager, etc. etc; and even less suburban reality, and even less country side reality, and even less etc. etc. etc. And I am sure I have it false (I worsen).

That is why I started this thread. to which you answer here, thank you.

 

Great point.  If we go back over the whole history since 2001 of legitimately recognized designers who have retailed a line for men in heels, the number is small.  Rad Hourani, Dior, YSL, Thus, I default my definition of social "acceptance" to social media.  Definitely, the most powerful communication is the reality of man in heels versus the idea.  The idea as circulated through social media engagement among open minded Millennials makes for a good second best.

Edited June 23, 2016 by kneehighs

[Steve63130]

Eighteen years ago, in 1998, I took over a defunct family hosiery wholesale business and with help from a supplier willing to take a risk, we designed and began selling pantyhose and tights for men, online, retail. Our business (www.activskin.com) flourished until last year when our two hosiery suppliers both went out of business, leaving us scrambling for new sources of supply. We're not dead yet, but business has suffered while we have tried to develop new products with new (but not truly dedicated) suppliers. We're struggling, but we are still optimistic. I'm looking to find a pony somewhere in this pile of manure!

Based on our success with hosiery, I have been watching for a market opportunity for heels for men. I think I know what it would take, but it's a very different challenge, much riskier, and because of the nature of the product, much more difficult to design successfully. Finding a domestic supplier willing to try it with me is out of the question, I think. Most of the world's shoes are made in China and I'm not willing to form a risky venture with people half a world away. It's been a struggle just to have Chinese distributors of our hosiery products!

One of the biggest problems I would face as a heels for men supplier is reaching those millennials who would be our potential customers, with styles that would be attractive and fashionable, and via social media (which I know very little about, but then I knew very little about the internet and web sites back in 1998 also; thankfully I hired the right people!).

So I have no problem considering being the first to sell heels for men, designing a line of styles that would mix masculine and feminine elements, and being attractive (I hope) to enough customers to make the business a financial success. I just don't feel like the stars are lining up properly:

Unlike hosiery, we're dealing with relatively expensive items that are much more durable. Very different expectations from the hosiery market.

I don't think designer heels for men in the $800 price range will ever succeed. There has to be a mass market in the $80-$120 range, but you need quantity to justify a low price like that.

Guys can't try shoes on over the internet, and the chances of getting the fit right the first time are often slim. That means lots of shipping and we're talking about relatively heavy items compared to hosiery. Many people don't want to buy clothes or shoes over the internet anyway. They'd rather try them on in a store. I don't have the capital to start a chain of stores, and I don't want to move to a big metropolitan area to open a retail store where I (or my staff) have to work long hours to be open.

I'm sure there are lots of other problems with starting a business selling heels for men, but that's what comes to mind off the top of my head. I just don't see the light at the end of the tunnel. But in experimenting with wearing women's heels over the past decade, I've developed an appreciation for what works (for me) and what doesn't, and I've learned a lot. I've had a lot of fun, too, and made lots of friends on this forum. So I'll keep looking. If you have any great ideas for a breakthrough, I'm interested!

Steve

Edited June 24, 2016 by Steve63130

[Shyheels]

Interesting analysis from a practical business point of view. Can't fault your arguments.

[Gudulitooo]

13 hours ago, Steve63130 said:

I just don't feel like the stars are lining up properly:

Hi Steve and thank you for your answer.

I work in the gas industry. Alignment problems are the toughest !

13 hours ago, Steve63130 said:

we're dealing with relatively expensive items that are much more durable

Yes you are right.

To me, a great barrier is that most men (even some women I know) only own one set of shoes (dress / summer leisure / winter leisure / sport / home) that they will replace (with great anxiety) one by one when one falls apart or is considered too damaged to suit its purpose. So they will hardly buy "out of the norm" items only for testing.

Women of this kind also exists: they own a medium heeled boots or booties for winter, and ballet flats for summer. There are a few of them at my son's school. They are not poor, rather working too much to have time to take care of this. (Yet many mothers own at least 4 / 5  pairs that they circulate through the weeks / seasons. I figure this is the natural evolution when many models are available)

Thus in my opinion, heels for men should at least target fashion conscious guys than owns at least a second pair in one of the dress or leisure category (price range 70$-150 $), and the shoes have to be able to occasionnaly replace one of this basic footwear.

All the better if they are  also able to completely replace one of this basic footwear set, then the guys with only one set can be targeted also, but I assume the price should be lower (or the seller should provide for reinbursement possibility). If the price is low enough (<50$) , it could spark the idea of having an extra pair for occasional replacement of their needs.

13 hours ago, Steve63130 said:

There has to be a mass market in the $80-$120 range, but you need quantity to justify a low price like that.

I don't understand completely your point. There is already a mass market : womens. So manufacturing slightly different shoes already engineered should not be that different, is it ?

 

13 hours ago, Steve63130 said:

I don't have the capital to start a chain of stores

I don't know about running a business. What prevents your hosiery company to be present as a supplier to an already existing chain of stores ? Do you fear that should the sales take off, the chain will go directly to the chinese manufacturer ? They will anyway, don't you think ?

 

 

Edited June 24, 2016 by Gudulitooo

[Gudulitooo]

17 hours ago, kneehighs said:

If we go back over the whole history since 2001 of legitimately recognized designers

Kneehighs,

What do you call "legitimately recognized designers"  ? What about Rick Owens ?

[robbiehhw]

You are likely right. The key might be to take the existing women's lines and market them as unisex. Converse already sort of does this for their shoes. They have a women's line, but their classic line has both women's and men's sizes on the box:

http://www.converse.com/us

Their web site does not really show that, but in stores you see it. Steve, thanks for sharing your insightful experience.

[kneehighs]

 

17 hours ago, Steve63130 said:

I don't think designer heels for men in the $800 price range will ever succeed. There has to be a mass market in the $80-$120 range, but you need quantity to justify a low price like that.

Absolutely agreed.  I'm actually going to give a keynote speech at fashion's leading Trend Service Company event in November.  (not about fashion, but using fashion to create Aspirational Value in another industry).   So I'm in touch with their NYC offices on getting info on how trends begin.  Should be interesting information to read.  Might have some applicability here. 

3 hours ago, Gudulitooo said:

Kneehighs,

What do you call "legitimately recognized designers"  ? What about Rick Owens ?

Legit =  a reference to designers with directional influence on the international fashion week scene and thus the global fashion economy.  Yes, I forgot to add Rick Owens.  

3 hours ago, robbiehhw said:

You are likely right. The key might be to take the existing women's lines and market them as unisex. Converse already sort of does this for their shoes. They have a women's line, but their classic line has both women's and men's sizes on the box:

http://www.converse.com/us

Their web site does not really show that, but in stores you see it. Steve, thanks for sharing your insightful experience.

You might be aware Jeffrey Campbell did/does? this.  

http://www.solestruck.com/the-damned-lita-man-glitter-multi/index.html   (the comments section makes for interesting reading)

 

 

 

Edited June 24, 2016 by kneehighs

[robbiehhw]

3 hours ago, kneehighs said:

 

You might be aware Jeffrey Campbell did/does? this.  

http://www.solestruck.com/the-damned-lita-man-glitter-multi/index.html   (the comments section makes for interesting reading)

 

 

 

Totally had forgotten about them! Yes indeed and the comments are pretty interesting.

[kneehighs]

Balenciaga Debuts Men's Heels At Paris Fashion Week Spring 2017  (June 22, 2016)

 

[Jkrenzer]

Nice to see heels but really 1970's all over. 1 - not original, 2 - not attractive. Let's see one of these over compensated "designer's" put men in real heels the way most of us here have been wearing for years.

[Shyheels]

I agree. I would have thought those were 70s pictures had I not known otherwise. I enjoyed the 70s when I lived them but the world has moved on. It seems like any attempt to design heels for me goes for the clumpy overblown look.   

Edited June 27, 2016 by Shyheels

[SF]

them shoes look like they been whooped with an ugly stick.....  ugly, ugly, ugly......   sf

[Gudulitooo]

I found this article about a corean wearer http://www.koreaboo.com/trending/kang-dong-won-wears-high-heels-to-press-conference/

 

[robbiehhw]

21 hours ago, kneehighs said:

Balenciaga Debuts Men's Heels At Paris Fashion Week Spring 2017  (June 22, 2016)

 

I like them - the white go go type boots are very cute. 

[swedeheeler]

23 hours ago, kneehighs said:

Balenciaga Debuts Men's Heels At Paris Fashion Week Spring 2017  (June 22, 2016)

 

Those pics makes me hurl of sickness. Litterally.