What Makes a Stiletto a Stiletto?

[mlroseplant]

1 hour ago, Puffer said:

I realise that, and apologise for implying otherwise.   I was lumping together the various shoes shown by you and melrose that have similar high tapered heels and saying that I didn't consider any of them to be 'cone' heels, with which you appear to agree.   As almost any heel that is not clearly 'slim' can be called 'chunky', I have my reservations about that term - and it does make me wonder where on the spectrum a cone heel lies (chunky at the top, slim at the bottom)! 

Here I go again with my vague analogies. I never said any of the heels presented here (except for your depictions) were cone heels, I said they were "cone-ish." I suppose this is something like my made up term "near-stiletto." I am trying to describe something that is close to the thing, but is not the thing.

A true cone is of course a three dimensional figure which tapers from a circle evenly down to a single, dimensionless point. There is no physical object that can really meet this definition, so everything we're describing, including undisputed true cone heels, are but partial cones or modified cones. To my eye, the three pairs of shoes I posted above, and the top two pairs Cali posted above are shaped like partial cones, partial cones with a flat section on one side. I say this because they taper pretty evenly from top to bottom, and have little or no curvature from top to bottom. Therefore, it's a partial cone! Sort of cone-ish, anyway.

I wonder if anybody has ever made a pair of shoes using pine cones as heels? Those would definitely be cone heels.

[at9]

You've given me a first opportunity (outside of maths lessons) to use the word "frustum".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frustum

[Cali]

34 minutes ago, at9 said:

You've given me a first opportunity (outside of maths lessons) to use the word "frustum".

You have never been to a circus then.

[Puffer]

10 hours ago, mlroseplant said:

Here I go again with my vague analogies. I never said any of the heels presented here (except for your depictions) were cone heels, I said they were "cone-ish." I suppose this is something like my made up term "near-stiletto." I am trying to describe something that is close to the thing, but is not the thing.

A true cone is of course a three dimensional figure which tapers from a circle evenly down to a single, dimensionless point. There is no physical object that can really meet this definition, so everything we're describing, including undisputed true cone heels, are but partial cones or modified cones. To my eye, the three pairs of shoes I posted above, and the top two pairs Cali posted above are shaped like partial cones, partial cones with a flat section on one side. I say this because they taper pretty evenly from top to bottom, and have little or no curvature from top to bottom. Therefore, it's a partial cone! Sort of cone-ish, anyway.

I wonder if anybody has ever made a pair of shoes using pine cones as heels? Those would definitely be cone heels.

Yes, you did say 'cone-ish' and that is as good a term as any for a heel which, if it came to a true point and didn't have a vertical slice removed and a sloping top would be a cone proper!   But I think we ought to give it a specific name - maybe a 'Melrose heel'?

7 hours ago, at9 said:

You've given me a first opportunity (outside of maths lessons) to use the word "frustum".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frustum

I also recall the frustum from maths and applied mechanics!    But a conical frustum would have its base (at the junction between heel top and shoe upper) parallel to the ground, which would make a heel of that shape impossible to walk on unless it was very low, probably combined with a platform sole - effectively a 'flatform' shoe.   

[mlroseplant]

19 hours ago, at9 said:

You've given me a first opportunity (outside of maths lessons) to use the word "frustum".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frustum

 

11 hours ago, Puffer said:

I also recall the frustum from maths and applied mechanics!    But a conical frustum would have its base (at the junction between heel top and shoe upper) parallel to the ground, which would make a heel of that shape impossible to walk on unless it was very low, probably combined with a platform sole - effectively a 'flatform' shoe.   

I am so proud of you boys! I am on the verge of tears.

Contemporaneously with the above quote, Puffer also said:Yes, you did say 'cone-ish' and that is as good a term as any for a heel which, if it came to a true point and didn't have a vertical slice removed and a sloping top would be a cone proper!   But I think we ought to give it a specific name - maybe a 'Melrose heel'?

I was thinking of doing another shoe inventory today, and I was reviewing the last one I did, which was probably a couple of years ago, and evidently, I have a lot of shoes with heels shaped like that. On the list, I put them down as "taper." I had forgotten that. We have taper candles, why not taper heels? Also, I had put my "near stilettos" down as "slim." I think those are reasonably descriptive terms, if a little boring.

[Histiletto]

The first stilettos used the initial spike heel shape as the seat of the heel as it concavely tapered to the breast of the heel about half way down the heel height to and around the 8 X 8 mm or smaller slender cylinder horse shoed circumference look to the 5 mm thick heel tip with the same horse shoed dimensions. Note the stilettos on the women of these two singing groups and Marilyn Monroe's stilettos.

  

Edited March 21, 2022 by Histiletto

[Puffer]

2 hours ago, Histiletto said:

The first stilettos used the initial spike heel shape as the seat of the heel as it concavely tapered to the breast of the heel about half way down the heel height to and around the 8 X 8 mm or smaller slender cylinder horse shoed circumference look to the 5 mm thick heel tip with the same horse shoed dimensions. Note the stilettos on the women of these two singing groups and Marilyn Monroe's stilettos.

Perhaps you could re-write that more clearly (and with punctuation) so we can understand your comments properly.   And why do you suggest that the (US) 'spike heel' is in some way not the same as a 'stiletto' heel?   Surely, after the stiletto was introduced, it was sometimes called a 'spike heel' (particularly in the US) but there is no physical distinction?

[Chorlini]

6 hours ago, Histiletto said:

The first stilettos used the initial spike heel shape as the seat of the heel as it concavely tapered to the breast of the heel about half way down the heel height to and around the 8 X 8 mm or smaller slender cylinder horse shoed circumference look to the 5 mm thick heel tip with the same horse shoed dimensions. Note the stilettos on the women of these two singing groups and Marilyn Monroe's stilettos.

 

3 hours ago, Puffer said:

Perhaps you could re-write that more clearly (and with punctuation) so we can understand your comments properly.   And why do you suggest that the (US) 'spike heel' is in some way not the same as a 'stiletto' heel?   Surely, after the stiletto was introduced, it was sometimes called a 'spike heel' (particularly in the US) but there is no physical distinction?

Very technical indeed.

Also, I can't help but notice on those pictures, and others of that era for that matter, that the golden age of high heel wearing wasn't that high at all. Around 3" at average.

[Jkrenzer]

43 minutes ago, Chorlini said:

 

Very technical indeed.

Also, I can't help but notice on those pictures, and others of that era for that matter, that the golden age of high heel wearing wasn't that high at all. Around 3" at average.

Marylin Monroe's shoes were super high at about 4.5 inches. Still here pumps are perfect.

[Chorlini]

14 minutes ago, Jkrenzer said:

Marylin Monroe's shoes were super high at about 4.5 inches. Still here pumps are perfect.

Exceptions to the rule do not invalidate the rule. Currently celebrities tend to wear high heels more then average women as well. Most women wearing pumps in the 50's and 60's wore low heeled pumps.

[Jkrenzer]

6 hours ago, Chorlini said:

Exceptions to the rule do not invalidate the rule. Currently celebrities tend to wear high heels more then average women as well. Most women wearing pumps in the 50's and 60's wore low heeled pumps.

Agreed. That's why I referred to them as super high. She was the exception and was beauty personified. 

[Puffer]

10 hours ago, Chorlini said:

 

Very technical indeed.

Also, I can't help but notice on those pictures, and others of that era for that matter, that the golden age of high heel wearing wasn't that high at all. Around 3" at average.

The pics do not tell the whole story, and certainly not in relation to the UK.   As has been said here before, whilst stiletto heels were commonly in the 3 - 3.5" range when they first became mainstream fashion in the UK (late '50s), that was by no means the rule.   Higher heels (4 - 5") became increasingly seen on women of all ages from c1960-65, and not only for 'dressy' occasions, although I would agree that the majority of women kept below 4" in their routine (work, shopping, leisure) daytime activity.

[Pierre1961]

That reminds me on the time I was often going to UK for business. In the years 70/80. Around Birmingham ( Walsall more precisely). I could see many women from age 16 to 50 wearing 4 to 5’’ court shoes. White calf leather. That place isn’t the best UK can offer but I enjoyed it . France wasn’t so found of real high heels at that time. 

[Puffer]

On 3/22/2022 at 9:36 AM, Pierre1961 said:

That reminds me on the time I was often going to UK for business. In the years 70/80. Around Birmingham ( Walsall more precisely). I could see many women from age 16 to 50 wearing 4 to 5’’ court shoes. White calf leather. That place isn’t the best UK can offer but I enjoyed it . France wasn’t so found of real high heels at that time. 

I doubt that the shoes you saw before about 1975 were single-sole stilettos - they had all but disappeared in the UK between 1965-75.   They may have had high straight heels with platforms, and often open toes.   But, after about 1980, high stilettos did get increasingly common and platforms disappeared for a time.   Overall there was a fair variety in the 1980s:

                               

Edited March 23, 2022 by Puffer

[Pierre1961]

I may be wrong with the period. Maybe 1980. 
What I am sure of is I got stuck by the view of so many women in heels. Like the Saint Laurent you pictured 

[StilettoLuv]

13 hours ago, Puffer said:

I doubt that the shoes you saw before about 1975 were single-sole stilettos - they had all but disappeared in the UK between 1965-75.   They may have had high straight heels with platforms, and often open toes.   But, after about 1980, high stilettos did get increasingly common and platforms disappeared for a time.   Overall there was a fair variety in the 1980s:

                               

I for one, wish that platforms would disappear permanently. Even with a high thin stiletto heel, platform shoes look heavy and clumsy.

[CAT]

On 3/23/2022 at 6:48 PM, StilettoLuv said:

I for one, wish that platforms would disappear permanently. Even with a high thin stiletto heel, platform shoes look heavy and clumsy.

I don't know about that entirely,,,,,, I agree a lot of plats are not to my liking.  BUT my top favorite shoe is my Steve Madden Dejavu platform pumps, a black pair and a nude pair.  I think I have 3 pairs of them in different color rhinestones as well as a leopard pony hair! 

Truly my all time fave shoe!!!!

Everyone has there own favs!

 

!

Edited March 25, 2022 by CAT

[mlroseplant]

On 3/21/2022 at 7:45 AM, Chorlini said:

 

Very technical indeed.

Also, I can't help but notice on those pictures, and others of that era for that matter, that the golden age of high heel wearing wasn't that high at all. Around 3" at average.

I'm with you there. I have discovered over and over again, through old photographs and magazine ads, that heels just weren't all that high by today's standards. I think the shoes of the 60s were pointier and narrower than shoes of today, but they were certainly not very high (with some exceptions, of course).

30+ years ago, I had a roommate for a short while who worked as an exotic dancer. She often wore shoes that I thought were insanely high and insanely hot. As it turns out, when I put a tape measure to them, they were only 3 5/8", or 9 cm. That's barely a high heel today. They make tango dance shoes that are higher than that!

7 hours ago, CAT said:

I don't know about that entirely,,,,,, I agree a lot of plats are not to my liking.  BUT my top favorite shoe is my Steve Madden Dejavu platform pumps, a black pair and a nude pair.  I think I have 3 pairs of them in different color rhinestones as well as a leopard pony hair! 

Truly my all time fave shoe!!!!

Everyone has there own favs!

 

!

I'll meet you about half way when it comes to platforms. I think those shoes would look much better if the platform were halved and the heel height stayed the same, but each has his own preference, right?

I think it also makes a great deal of difference how physically big the person is. On a fellow like you, these plats don't look bad at all! I can see why you like them. However, on a 5-foot-nothing 90 lb. woman, they look simply ridiculous, as that's all you see are her huge honkin' shoes. I won't even talk about the modern chunky heeled versions of these plats.

[Jkrenzer]

32 minutes ago, mlroseplant said:

 

30+ years ago, I had a roommate for a short while who worked as an exotic dancer.

You had me here. How'd you manage this? 

[p1ng74]

5 hours ago, mlroseplant said:

30+ years ago, I had a roommate for a short while who worked as an exotic dancer. She often wore shoes that I thought were insanely high and insanely hot. As it turns out, when I put a tape measure to them, they were only 3 5/8", or 9 cm. That's barely a high heel today. They make tango dance shoes that are higher than that!

3 5/8" is barely a high heel today?  I think most people would consider that quite high, even if it's barely high for us   

[AlexC94]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CafTmRVrg06/?utm_medium=copy_link How about these? My most thinnest heeled boots.

[mlroseplant]

22 hours ago, Jkrenzer said:

You had me here. How'd you manage this? 

I advertised for a roommate. It was just dumb luck, or perhaps dumb bad luck. She was not particularly interesting, and she gifted me a $400 unpaid phone bill when she left suddenly. She was the type of gal who would complain if she went out to the bar and had to actually pay for some of her own drinks. However, I do remember the one hot pair of shoes she had though. And it WAS only one. And I think the only reason she had those was for her job.

17 hours ago, p1ng74 said:

3 5/8" is barely a high heel today?  I think most people would consider that quite high, even if it's barely high for us   

You're probably right. I live in rarefied air these days. It would be interesting to know the sales figures for Louboutin shoes. You never see them in pop culture, but I wonder if his 85 and 100 mm shoes outsell the 120 mm So Kates that everyone identifies as being the iconic Louboutin. Even the 85s would have been on the tall side back in the day. Thanks for bringing me back to reality!

[Puffer]

I say again, with great respect to my fellow 'researchers', that c1960 -70 heels were often higher than the 3 - 3.5" that are being suggested as typically the highest in everyday use, as exemplified by library photos etc.   I can't speak from personal experience there for what was the norm in the US at any period but I CAN clearly recall my own sightings in England (London and the South East) from the mid-1950s onwards.   I would agree that the most common woman's 'fashion' shoe in the 'golden period' of c1958-65 was a closed toe court with a sharply pointed toe and a stiletto heel of 'around' 3" (so usually 2.75 - 3.5") - BUT (and it is quite a big 'BUT'), it was by no means uncommon to see, worn in an everyday work/shopping/leisure context by women of 15 - 55, similar shoes with heels of 4" or more, and sometimes around 5".   Such sightings were not infrequent and well-remembered for the impression they made on me!   

The 'classic' plain pointed stiletto court was not of course the only footwear item commonly seen.   It had many variations - bows, slingbacks, T-straps, chisel toes, strappy sandals.   About the only variations NOT seen at that time were peep toes and/or platform soles, both of which had been popular (with thicker high heels) in the earlier 1950s and would become so again from c1970.   The 'famine' period was (broadly) 1965 - 70 (as the mini skirt took hold) when stilettos were 'unfashionable' (although a number of women remained faithful to them) and the prevailing fashion was for heels that were low and fairly chunky and squarish toes, often with slingbacks and embellishments such as bows.    

            

The strip of four pics (left) shows what many women would wear for 'smart' work or social occasions c1960.   Yes, the heels are quite low but very similar courts with an extra inch or more were favoured by many.   The pic on the right is quite typical of the late 60s, with the girl on the left faithful to pointed stiletto slingbacks (although lower than would have been common a few years earlier) and her colleague on the right wearing modest low-heeled 'mod' courts.

[Puffer]

Further to my last, and without trying to labour the points I made therein, I have just seen by chance on TV a film in the 'Look at Life' series made by Rank in the early 60s as 'cinema shorts', covering a variety of topical subjects.   This one, made in 1960, was about the influence of Italy and Italian immigrants on British life and included references to fashion.   Stiletto heels were mentioned and shown in several shots of shoe shop windows.   The majority of the shoes on display (in several styles) had stiletto heels of at least 4" in height - totally typical of the prevailing fashion, although I certainly don't suggest that lower heels were not also sold and worn.

I may be able to capture and show some stills, if my limited tech allows.