The Last Bastion of Masculinity

[Walkonit]

Interesting discussion Seems like it's difficult to find "The Last Bastion of Masculinity" these days. I wonder if "The Last Bastions of Feminity are shrinking or growing."

[Jkrenzer]

Don't forget Cathering the Great. Queen Ranavalona I the Cruel - Madagasgar Elena Ceauşescu - Romania Countess Elizabeth Báthory - Hungary Queen Mary of England - called bloody Mary Elizabeth I was no saint to Irish either.

[hoverfly]

Anyway, I think some of you are overreacting to my comments and being quite insulting to boot.

Agreed - far too blokey and what many women complain about in the corporate world.

This is quit tame. We've seen worse.

[hoverfly]

Don't forget Cathering the Great.

Queen Ranavalona I the Cruel - Madagasgar

Elena Ceauşescu - Romania

Countess Elizabeth Báthory - Hungary

Queen Mary of England - called bloody Mary

Elizabeth I was no saint to Irish either.

Don't forget the Queen of Harts, Off with his head!!

[scrappycoco]

Anyway, I think some of you are overreacting to my comments and being quite insulting to boot.

Amanda I could not agree more. After reading all this it made me think that we where all reading way too much into what you said. I give you props for speaking your mind and not being afraid to back it up.

[HappyinHeels]

ALL, I have noticed how this thread has spiraled perhaps to a level it was never intended. I don't know if websites come with mission statements like companies and organizations often publish but I'd say that Amanda Snake is correct in the premise of THIS site is the discussion of high heels no matter who is wearing them. Her PERSONAL assertion she believes most men look silly wearing them is just that, a PERSONAL assertion. It is an opinion guaranteed her by the charter on which Great Britain operates, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms that grants Canadians the same thing, and that beloved document many countries have emulated, what grants me the freedom I enjoy today, the Constitution of the United States of America. This is a discussion forum on the internet so her opinion is exactly where it needs to be. I have written about the value of liberty before but it is a subject always worth emphasizing lest those who forget. The right of free speech, the world over, is never more valuable and tested, than one person hears someone else state an opinion they totally disagree with. There is no appreciation for speech when everyone looks the same, acts the same, and has the same thoughts inside their heads. The need to control people and make them all alike is what leads to war. Take away greed and hatred and take away the fuel for war. Amanda's point about men leading wars is entirely true. 28 years ago I found myself in Beirut and my partner shot a Syrian as he popped out of a blown-up building and hit him squarely in the neck. We watched that man die, bleed to death, within 15 seconds. There was nothing masculine about it, just barbaric that it had to come to that. We MEN were there because most countries do not ask their women to go to war. There are times when war, as barbaric as it is, becomes the way you'll survive. Certainly the whole of Great Britain knows the value of that. Anyone with even a sliver of Jewish blood (like me) will tell you that WWII probably saved their faith. 100 years ago there were six newspapers in Milwaukee that were published in German and today there are none. Millions of Americans have German or German-derivative names yet few speak German because it was taken from the schools owing to the stain of the Nazis and our country having to fight a war with the Third Reich. Yet goodness can sprout in the aftermath. The Germany of 2011 is a remarkable nation built from the ashes that strives to divorce itself from that violent period of history but they are always sensitive to it. Had the USA not fought, and not won, our country and many others across western Europe would have looked very different. Sure, Amanda's point about wars being driven by men is true but there is nothing nice or masculine about killing another human being. Another made a point about different female monarchs and the like but I have never liked ANY monarchies. Last year I spent time in the two countries most ravaged by monarchies, Peru and Mexico, and certainly those peoples can attest to the atrocities of war and being plundered. Pretty much all the royal chests of Europe were filled with treasures stolen from the Americas, from Canada all the way to Argentina and this is also indisputable. So...Amanda's points are historically correct, her opinion is just as valid as anyone's, and WAR is the last bastion of barbarism driven by men. It is an evil sphere where humans kill their own species which has to be unique in the universe. But from the ashes of this barbarous act comes the liberty we all have to express ourselves. Some things really are worth fighting for. I thank the hungry and barefoot soldier fighting in the snow of Valley Forge, Pennsylvania during the brutal winter of 1777 for my freedom and all others who will stand up and be the guarantors of the freedom enjoyed today. There's my opinion on this. And a nice weekend to All!! HappyinHeels

[roniheels]

Your love for us.

Not only will I agree with this but will expand on it ... the love for women and the envy of women. I remember hearing for years as I was growing up that many women would say, "...men have it all. They can work any job, go anywhere, and do anything and many things that women can't or aren't allowed to do." Well needless to say, times have changed, and I think for the better. But I also think as women have become more independent and challenging, I truly think many men really envy women in a similar way that women envied men many years ago. And I believe that is at least partially the reason men have explored the realm of pursuing women's fashions and appearances. I agree totally with swollen: I still love to see a woman in pretty make-up, attire, and especially high heels. I hope that trend continues and does not fade as it did in the mid to late 60's in the USA (remember women burning their bras?). But I really believe the free-expression of men embracing and wearing women's apparel has maybe been seen as an invasion of at least one of the Last Bastion of Femininity.

[roniheels]

If I think men mostly look silly in high heels then I believe I'm free to express my opinion regarding that in an internet forum designed for the purpose of discussing high heels. I have nothing against you boys wearing them at all. You can wear them all you like. In fact I think you're quite brave to do so given the social stigma attached to it.

Furthermore, my comments about war, football and religion being fueled, driven and lead by men are all true. I regard this as being indisputable unless you're prepared to argue with history.

Of course Margret Thatcher had to be drawn into the argument that women are just as responsible for starting wars. That's one woman amongst thousands of years of male driven wars all over the world.

Anyway, I think some of you are overreacting to my comments and being quite insulting to boot.

Over-reacting? Surely not! LOL:silly:

Amanda ... as I have said to you several times in several posts, and you can go back and look at my posts, please keep your comments and opinions coming, and that applies to every female at this site. The comment you made, and in the girls only section, has caused response and discussion and look how long this particular thread has become. Not everyone is going to agree with you or you with others. But it makes for interesting discussion such as this. Away from this site, I can get very emotional and opinionated on subjects. But in a forum like this I try to express myself yet try, and I emphasize, try to take everyone's feelings into consideration. But, we're only human and diverse and that's what makes the world go round.

[hoverfly]

Great Scott man! Insert a paragraph in there once in awhile.

ALL,

I have noticed how this thread has spiraled perhaps to a level it was never intended. I don't know if websites come with mission statements like companies and organizations often publish but I'd say that Amanda Snake is correct in the premise of THIS site is the discussion of high heels no matter who is wearing them. Her PERSONAL assertion she believes most men look silly wearing them is just that, a PERSONAL assertion. It is an opinion guaranteed her by the charter on which Great Britain operates, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms that grants Canadians the same thing, and that beloved document many countries have emulated, what grants me the freedom I enjoy today, the Constitution of the United States of America. This is a discussion forum on the internet so her opinion is exactly where it needs to be. I have written about the value of liberty before but it is a subject always worth emphasizing lest those who forget. The right of free speech, the world over, is never more valuable and tested, than one person hears someone else state an opinion they totally disagree with. There is no appreciation for speech when everyone looks the same, acts the same, and has the same thoughts inside their heads. The need to control people and make them all alike is what leads to war. Take away greed and hatred and take away the fuel for war. Amanda's point about men leading wars is entirely true. 28 years ago I found myself in Beirut and my partner shot a Syrian as he popped out of a blown-up building and hit him squarely in the neck. We watched that man die, bleed to death, within 15 seconds. There was nothing masculine about it, just barbaric that it had to come to that. We MEN were there because most countries do not ask their women to go to war. There are times when war, as barbaric as it is, becomes the way you'll survive. Certainly the whole of Great Britain knows the value of that. Anyone with even a sliver of Jewish blood (like me) will tell you that WWII probably saved their faith. 100 years ago there were six newspapers in Milwaukee that were published in German and today there are none. Millions of Americans have German or German-derivative names yet few speak German because it was taken from the schools owing to the stain of the Nazis and our country having to fight a war with the Third Reich. Yet goodness can sprout in the aftermath. The Germany of 2011 is a remarkable nation built from the ashes that strives to divorce itself from that violent period of history but they are always sensitive to it. Had the USA not fought, and not won, our country and many others across western Europe would have looked very different. Sure, Amanda's point about wars being driven by men is true but there is nothing nice or masculine about killing another human being. Another made a point about different female monarchs and the like but I have never liked ANY monarchies. Last year I spent time in the two countries most ravaged by monarchies, Peru and Mexico, and certainly those peoples can attest to the atrocities of war and being plundered. Pretty much all the royal chests of Europe were filled with treasures stolen from the Americas, from Canada all the way to Argentina and this is also indisputable. So...Amanda's points are historically correct, her opinion is just as valid as anyone's, and WAR is the last bastion of barbarism driven by men. It is an evil sphere where humans kill their own species which has to be unique in the universe. But from the ashes of this barbarous act comes the liberty we all have to express ourselves. Some things really are worth fighting for. I thank the hungry and barefoot soldier fighting in the snow of Valley Forge, Pennsylvania during the brutal winter of 1777 for my freedom and all others who will stand up and be the guarantors of the freedom enjoyed today. There's my opinion on this.

And a nice weekend to All!!

HappyinHeels

[Guest]

Alsheels

there are too many women here (and everywhere) who are open minded to men's fantasies and pleasures.....and we are learning from them.

I wasn't but now I might.

Al

[Maninheels]

Amanda I could not agree more. After reading all this it made me think that we where all reading way too much into what you said. I give you props for speaking your mind and not being afraid to back it up.

I agree to a point. I think EVERYONE has a right to their opinion; however, this thread leads me to believe that there is an expectation that Amanda is able to speak her mind and the rest of us are to quietly accept without expressing our opinions as well. hmmm.

[Guest]

If I think men mostly look silly in high heels then I believe I'm free to express my opinion ......

Anyway, I think some of you are overreacting to my comments and being quite insulting to boot.

Amanda and as is ALL of us (M & F) have a right to express a view, both positive and negative!

There are many +s regarding some of our pictures eg- "I like those", "good legs" etc. often male to male, rarely female to male. However I believe Gina and Pata are top of the league for male to female.

We (as guys) seem to be seeking approvals whereas the girls in reality are not seeking that same kudos. (remember to compliment your lady when she's dressed and ready to go out?)..

Lets face it a few have taken umbridge and now I believe need reining in, certainly we all need to calm down and relax.

Sometimes Amanda has acted as the "voice of reason" to make us think.

Remembering back when reading, I left those comments as her views, not an insult.

It is far easy to get carried away with peer pressure without realising it, following a style or that high heels should be * height to be "IN".

We talk about making the style "work". If it doesn't, then to quote the lady, "it looks silly"

Respectfully to all we need to be calm.

Al

[Steve63130]

Amanda, I'd like to explore your opinion further with you, since in part I agree with you and respect you. Please bear with me while I explain. There are a number of features about footwear that we are programmed to interpret as "feminine." Among them are: Heel thickness. I think a big man (as well as a big woman) can look "silly" (or at least precarious) perched on thin stiletto heels. (I'm sure I'll catch flak with that statement, but I've looked at myself in the mirror in stilettos and I just don't like the look on me. I'm not fat, just stocky, a little bigger in the waist than I should be for my height, and I could stand to lose a few pounds.) In my opinion bigger people look better with thicker heels to support them. Thinner people look right in thin heels. Wedges are problematic if they're thin (in width), too, but better if they're wider. Platforms, if they're about a centimeter or so thick, don't look particularly feminine to me. But thicker plats could be, depending on the configuration, especially the multiple layered plats and stripper heels. Instep. I think another feature that can look feminine to me is the amount of instep, or the top of the foot that is revealed. Pumps/courts with a low throat that show toe cleavage are especially feminine. Boots, booties, clogs, and even loafers are at the other end of the spectrum, because these cover the instep, and thus make the overall appearance less femme. Thin straps, such as you find on sandals, slingbacks, maryjanes, and even boots (for decoration) look feminine to me. They make the shoe look dainty and less capable of holding the foot in place than a thicker strap. Frilly fabrics, such as lace, knitted fabrics, braided straps, transparent gauze or clear plastic can make a shoe appear feminine. Shiny patent leather, PVC or polyurethane can also look femme. Accessories that catch the eye, such as buckles, bows, flowers, jewels, sequins and shiny metal pieces, or other decoration, can make a shoe appear feminine. So when you say that you think guys look silly in high heels, please pause for a minute and consider the overall appearance of the shoe you have in mind. Are you thinking about shoes that have one or more of these feminine features? Please consider this. There are a lot of (women's) shoes with high heels that don't have the above mentioned feminine features. Examples of some are shown below. Do you agree with this distinction I've made? Could a guy dressed in heels like those below look "not silly" but rather "all right" or even "attractive" to you? Or in your opinion do most guys in high heels, no matter what the shoe looks like, look silly? I'm not being anal - just anal-ytical. Not all heels are created equal. :-) Respectfully, Steve

[scrappycoco]

I guess what it all comes down to is this. Opinions are like a$$ holes we all have one. To me what she said did not bother me as a man that wears heels at all. There are just certain thing's that do not look right on certain people. We all know it just alot of times we choice not to say anything. I have seen my fare share of guys and gals on here wearing heels with certain types of clothing that just looks in my opinion looks silly. So with that I think we just need to leave thing's be.

[Charlie]

If I think men mostly look silly in high heels then I believe I'm free to express my opinion regarding that in an internet forum designed for the purpose of discussing high heels. I have nothing against you boys wearing them at all. You can wear them all you like. In fact I think you're quite brave to do so given the social stigma attached to it.

Furthermore, my comments about war, football and religion being fueled, driven and lead by men are all true. I regard this as being indisputable unless you're prepared to argue with history.

Of course Margret Thatcher had to be drawn into the argument that women are just as responsible for starting wars. That's one woman amongst thousands of years of male driven wars all over the world.

Anyway, I think some of you are overreacting to my comments and being quite insulting to boot.

A fair response as far as the shoes go. The only thing I'd add is that history has clearly shown that matriarchal leadership can lead to wars waged the same as patriarchal leadership. The only reason for the illusion that patriarchal leadership leads to more wars stems from patriarchal leadership being more common. Testosterone is the likely cause behind the overwhelming domination of patriarchal leadership throughout the centuries. Despite all of this, it was men who first wore heeled footwear. Go figure.. lol

Charlie

[Dr. Shoe]

To be honest, I see some pics of guys on here and i think "Oh my gawd! Whatever does he think he looks like?" then there are others that do "make it work". To say that all men look silly is a very sweeping statement. Some do and some don't.

[JeffB]

In my opinion, things here have gotten just a bit out of hand. I find it more than a tad worrisome that guys here want to slam another member for voicing her honest opinion, the whole purpose of this forum is to freely express our views, just because someone stated a viewpoint that clearly got everyone's knickers in a twist is no reason to go overboard. Regardless of if we agree with Amanda or not on this last bastion business (and I happen to agree), we should be civil enough to respect her opinion, if not, then we're no better than the knuckledraggers out in public who choose to make fun of us because of what we choose to wear on our feet. Lastly, I would suggest to the mods that this thread be closed as I think it's gone as far as it's going to go.

[Guest]

Just maybe this link will turn a few heads round on the current issues?

http://www.newlook.com/shop/shoe-gallery/brogues_1470074

I wouldn't say the girls are raiding our side to get their own back, it's more like the designers/buyers have moved the display racks over.

Take your choice from 1/2 to 2".

I've just picked up a 1" pair which is more closer to 11/2 apart from the toe "point" being more central than offset with the male norm. Even the check out girl thought they were mens. Oh and they were only £15.

Al

[Guest]

HERE, HERE. I'll second that and offer that the parallel thread in "chat" also closes. Al

[yozz]

I am sorry, but I do not agree. If somebody, intentionally, posts a provocative statement, that is his/her good right, but then one should expect a lot of flak, and it is the good right of the others to give their opinion as well. I consider it incorrect to make them quiet by closing the thread. Y.

[SleekHeels]

I specifically made the effort for my last post not to be a personal attack on Amanda but to just comment on the issues. As I've posted previously, I sometimes think I look silly in heels and I have no problem with Amanda pointing that out as it reflects the mainstream reaction we're likely to encounter. It just makes me try harder to create a coordinated look that works. Sure high heels are gorgeous but sometimes even girls can make them look very silly if they don't make the effort too. On the war issue, many of the historic female figures were living in a male-dominated world and having to "compete" on those terms. They were women behaving in a very masculine way. To say that wars are started by men is not to say that all men want to start wars. On the religion issue, if I was to make a generalisation from things I've observed, a lot more women seem to be religious, flocking to their place of worship and dragging their reluctant husbands there too when they'd rather be home watching the... ... watching the football ! Which totally bores me, I'd rather be out shoe shopping any day of the week :-)

[Trolldeg]

it's that 1% that makes a big difference.

It's society that makes the big difference.

[Walkonit]

Just maybe this link will turn a few heads round on the current issues?

http://www.newlook.com/shop/shoe-gallery/brogues_1470074

I wouldn't say the girls are raiding our side to get their own back, it's more like the designers/buyers have moved the display racks over.

Take your choice from 1/2 to 2".

I've just picked up a 1" pair which is more closer to 11/2 apart from the toe "point" being more central than offset with the male norm. Even the check out girl thought they were mens. Oh and they were only £15.

Al

Yes it seems there are lot of "male" styles for the girls this autumn. Just about any male shoe style is now a female style as well. So whats a guy to do ?

[jmc]

<moderator note> We had two threads under this title, one in "HHPlace Cafe" and one here in "For the Guys". I have merged the two threads into "For the Guys" and left an expiring redirect in "HHplace Cafe". The redirect will disappear in a week to prevent clutter. By then all interested posters will know to look for it here. Since this topic was brought up by a comment in the "Girls' " forum, should this thread be moved to "For Everybody"? We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming. . . <end of moderator note>

[Maninheels]

To be honest, I see some pics of guys on here and i think "Oh my gawd! Whatever does he think he looks like?" then there are others that do "make it work". To say that all men look silly is a very sweeping statement. Some do and some don't.

Although this is a very true statement, I have seen the same situation with some women. Of course that seems to be ok though.

[benno]

Saying men look silly in heels is sexist against women? Society allows women to do masculine things because male traits are seen as confident and stronger and therefore 'better'. Just look at differing ways baby boys and girls are treated. What's the male equivalent of a Tom Boy? Feminism was all about women becoming equal to men, making society equal. It was not meant to make women better than men. In the future this thread (whole website???) is all going to be seen as a quaint relic of the past. We need to tolerate each other. We are all just people with the same desires and wants and needs. There shoudn't be the need for any last bastions of this or that. Gender has nothing to do with the bits between your legs.

[loswabs]

If I think men mostly look silly in high heels then I believe I'm free to express my opinion regarding that in an internet forum designed for the purpose of discussing high heels. I have nothing against you boys wearing them at all. You can wear them all you like. In fact I think you're quite brave to do so given the social stigma attached to it.

Furthermore, my comments about war, football and religion being fueled, driven and lead by men are all true. I regard this as being indisputable unless you're prepared to argue with history.

Of course Margret Thatcher had to be drawn into the argument that women are just as responsible for starting wars. That's one woman amongst thousands of years of male driven wars all over the world.

Anyway, I think some of you are overreacting to my comments and being quite insulting to boot.

Maggie Thatcher divides opinion more than probably any other politician I can think of, but she was what this country needed the get it off it's arse and on it's feet, be they in heels or not ;o) For sure, she had more balls than any of the men around her.

Anyway, back to the issue of men in heels, of which I am one Amanda, and just for clarification, when does a man in heels not look silly?

[benno]

I hate football, war and religion. I must be a woman.

[manluvheels]

I hate football, war and religion. I must be a woman.

Haha Benno. I am like you except I don't like the word hate. The world would be a better place without it

[benno]

I think it's OK to hate war.