What Makes a Stiletto a Stiletto?

[Cali]

9 hours ago, Puffer said:

it really tells us nothing about the shoes she favours other than they are not 'flat' - another vague description.

"she"????

[Isolathor]

1 hour ago, Cali said:

"she"????

Outside of this forum a "she" is much more likely than a "he"!

Edited January 12, 2022 by Isolathor

[Puffer]

Some interesting responses above. 

My memories of 'high heels' (and particularly stilettos) go back in the UK to the mid-50s - and certainly embrace the 'golden age' before they were largely ignored from c1965-75.    Girls in my part of the UK were certainly then wearing pointed stiletto courts of the type pictured in mlroseplant's first picture (and sometimes higher), to the almost complete exclusion of the other two styles, until the latter crept back in from the late-60s.   

And I do recall early-60s press reports of Jackie Kennedy (and other US trend-setters) referring to 'spike heels', which is why I suggested that this was the common US term at that time, and probably only changing to 'stiletto heels' when (as usual) those in the US and elsewhere came to recognise the superiority of established UK terminology and it became more disseminated through TV etc. ☺️

Younger women's dress shoes in the UK from about 1970 commonly had high (4"+) but thicker heels with increasingly thick platforms, much as is the current trend (alas).   When stilettos reappeared after c1975 in the UK, they were typically paired at first with thinner platforms, but single-sole shoes soon took over and the chunkier heels were less common but still seen, as were cone heels and other variants.   Peep toes were very common on all these styles, much as today, but hosiery was indeed the norm except in casual summery settings.

As to our former EU-partners using the relatively meaningless term 'high heels', it is scarcely 'nerdy' to be precise when precision is needed - and our correspondence here is in the English language too.

Mlroseplant hasn't yet clarified whether his 'stiletto' definition requires a heel that is not only slim but is tapered towards the top (as I suggest) rather than wholly parallel (as on the green sandals).   I do agree with him about these otherwise attractive green sandals being marred somewhat by their 'wire nail head' flared heel tip and the other aspects he mentions; I used them only to illustrate the heel shape.   

3 hours ago, Isolathor said:

Outside of this forum a "she" is much more likely than a "he"!

It was a typo on my part; I intended to say 'he or she'.

[Isolathor]

As long as "she" is wearing heels like these i think stiletto is appropriate:

[mlroseplant]

11 hours ago, Puffer said:

Mlroseplant hasn't yet clarified whether his 'stiletto' definition requires a heel that is not only slim but is tapered towards the top (as I suggest) rather than wholly parallel (as on the green sandals).   I do agree with him about these otherwise attractive green sandals being marred somewhat by their 'wire nail head' flared heel tip and the other aspects he mentions; I used them only to illustrate the heel shape.  

I guess I would personally consider them to be "near" stiletto or "stiletto-esque." It's good to be precise, to examine the world before us, and discuss things we enjoy. When it comes to aesthetics, however, we eventually come back to the fallback of, "I know it when I see it." Or perhaps even better, "I know what I like when I see it."

In the end, none of this really matters, and if we never agree on a definition of what exactly makes a stiletto heel, the world will continue on its merry way. I think what is far more important is that we have enjoyed ourselves along our merry way. I've always said that often the best threads are the ones that deviate from the subject randomly. This one evidently did not disappoint. Apparently, I missed the whole cricket thing, but I can scroll back and find it there.

One thing that I have come to appreciate is that we have so many choices in modern times that we did not only a few decades ago. You can find almost any style you want now fairly easily, and if you're willing to go Chinese, you can get it at a fairly reasonable price. This in and of itself is really quite amazing.

[Puffer]

Yes, I agree on all counts!   Without getting bogged-down in too much minutiae, we have explored the subject amicably and ended-up with something a little more recognisable than before.   No significant deviation either - but there are those (such as my wife) who think male heel-wearing is 'deviant' enough, alas.

Until further notice, I will regard a 'stiletto' as any heel that conforms to our 'joint definition', i.e. a heel being (a) not more than 10mm across in its parallel or near-parallel lower part; and (b) with a definite outward flair in its upper half.    And anything that conforms to (a) but not (b) as simply a 'spike' heel.  🤓 

[Isolathor]

So now we have stiletto, near stiletto, stiletto-esque and spike heels. Did i forget anything? Time to forge an ISO norm ..... 😉

[Puffer]

1 hour ago, Isolathor said:

So now we have stiletto, near stiletto, stiletto-esque and spike heels. Did i forget anything? Time to forge an ISO norm ..... 😉

Indeed!   Which is really why I have suggested that 'stiletto' and 'spike' are sufficient to describe the two discernible types of high, thin heel.   Adding qualifiers to them is superfluous.   There is still justification for some other names relating to thin heels however, of which perhaps 'kitten heel' (= low stiletto) is the best established.   And of course 'block heel', 'cone heel', 'wedge heel' etc are descriptive of other types of high heel that are definitely not stiletto or spike.

[mlroseplant]

22 minutes ago, Puffer said:

Indeed!   Which is really why I have suggested that 'stiletto' and 'spike' are sufficient to describe the two discernible types of high, thin heel.   Adding qualifiers to them is superfluous.   There is still justification for some other names relating to thin heels however, of which perhaps 'kitten heel' (= low stiletto) is the best established.   And of course 'block heel', 'cone heel', 'wedge heel' etc are descriptive of other types of high heel that are definitely not stiletto or spike.

I will probably continue to use the term "near-stiletto" to describe certain heels, one of which is on the pair of shoes that got this whole conversation started. I could call them "just-a-little-too-thick-and-having-not-quite-the-right-proportions-to-be-stiletto heels." Or how about, "Slim-tapered-heels-but-not-cone-heels heels."?

[Shyheels]

I think if there was to be a generic "high heels" that would probably be it

[Isolathor]

Yes, call it a high heel. 👍

[Puffer]

11 hours ago, mlroseplant said:

I will probably continue to use the term "near-stiletto" to describe certain heels, one of which is on the pair of shoes that got this whole conversation started. I could call them "just-a-little-too-thick-and-having-not-quite-the-right-proportions-to-be-stiletto heels." Or how about, "Slim-tapered-heels-but-not-cone-heels heels."?

I was not clear enough in my previous post.   We had been addressing what you and I would both regard as a true 'stiletto heel' (much as you originally defined it, with my suggested amendment) and also the similar but 'unflared' thin parallel heel, which I suggested is called a 'spike heel'.

I agree that your (now famous!) shoes, as pictured, are neither stiletto nor spike and are indeed in style 'near-stiletto', which to my mind is a perfectly good description, although not an adequate definition as it begs the question as to what exactly is a 'near-stiletto' - there could be a number of variations in shoes that would still fit that generic term.   Likewise, to say simply that it is a 'high heel' is not precise enough as that term covers an even wide potential range - although I agree that your shoes are (to the layman anyway) almost the epitome of a typical high-heeled shoe that is not extreme in any detail.   

All things considered, I would suggest that anything that is not clearly a stiletto, spike, wedge, cone, cuban etc has to be given its own description (or illustration) unless and until someone comes up with a good name - preferably one that is self-descriptive and not too vague.   Which others have done - as discussed in your 'Ruminations' topic.   I repeat below the drawing I included there as a reminder.   If it isn't a 'French heel', maybe our other European friends would like to announce a 'German' or 'Dutch' heel, with your shoes being the prototype!

[Isolathor]

Thanks for the drawing, and i don´t think there is any reason to announce a "German" heel. In fact most of german women (men to an even lesser degree) don´t  wear heels anymore, and high heels have become a rare sight. If it wasn´t for my wife i would see high heels worn only once or twice a day in the shopping mall. 

[mlroseplant]

I have a LOT of "near-stilettos," and I have explained the reason why many times, but I suppose I should recount the reason why for any new people. I would actually prefer to wear stilettos pretty much all the time, but wearing an incrementally broader heel is much more practical for me for one reason: The top lifts, or top pieces, or heel tips, or heel caps, or whatever we've decided to call them, last literally 8-10 times longer on a slightly thicker heel than they do on a stiletto heel.

Unless we can figure out a way to make an offshoot, I think we have probably beat this subject to death. We are probably some of the few people who care what you call a certain heel shape, and even among our number there are a significant portion who really don't care. I suppose this is the reason why the vague term "high heels" persists without question, and that's because nobody even gives the subject a second thought. We are a very, very narrow slice of the world.

Incidentally, the way you say "high heels" in Vietnamese is "cao gót," or "giày cao gót. "The second example would be "high heel shoes." In Vietnamese, like Spanish, the adjective comes after the noun.  So "giày" means "shoe," "cao" means "tall," and you would also use "cao" to describe someone who is blessed in the height department, and "gót" means "heel." You also use that word to describe your actual physical heel, but in that case, you'd have to combine it with another word which means "leg" to distinguish it from a shoe heel. I shall have to message one of my younger cousins or nieces to find out if they ever get more specific about describing high heels with a mere few words. I kind of doubt it.

Edited January 15, 2022 by mlroseplant
Clarity

[Puffer]

5 hours ago, mlroseplant said:

...

Unless we can figure out a way to make an offshoot, I think we have probably beat this subject to death. We are probably some of the few people who care what you call a certain heel shape, and even among our number there are a significant portion who really don't care. I suppose this is the reason why the vague term "high heels" persists without question, and that's because nobody even gives the subject a second thought. We are a very, very narrow slice of the world.

...

I think you are right - but the lack of further descriptive names will not help us here when discussing particular footwear, unless we rely mainly on photos.   Perhaps the thicker 'near-stiletto' that you favour (for very good reason) should henceforth be called a 'Melrose Heel'!

[Histiletto]

Sorry that I wasn't here to offer some comments in the earlier part of this discussion.  This is probably the only pair of stiletto heels that fit the actual definition. All the other heels incorporated this new available extremely thin stiletto creations with the already popular shaped heels, because there were drawings and paintings of the models and Hollywood actresses wearing really high thin heels that were motivators for Allied soldiers and now they could be achieved in real life. 

 These heels are of the original spike design that uses the thinness and strength of the stiletto to be taller and more slendered than the curved tapering of the 4 inch heels could be made prior to 1955. These types of heels are probably the reason people started to inappropriately referring to any of the thin and slender shaped heels as stilettos.

[mlroseplant]

It is time to up my geek game here. I have recently acquired a digital caliper. Actually, I bought this as a birthday present for my son, who is involved in a number of diverse projects where knowing the precise measurement of certain components is critical. What I did not think of at the time was using this caliper to measure the thickness of high heels. For your viewing pleasure, I have included a photo of my thinnest stilettos, at least as measured at the tip. I measured right above the heel cap, as the cap tends to "mushroom" right away once you actually wear the shoes. Evidently, my thinnest heels are my Steve Madden "Barbb" mules, at about 6.6 mm in the north-south dimension, and just over 7 mm in the east-west dimension.

Nearly matching the absolute thinness of my Barbbs happens to be another Steve Madden model, my recently acquired Daisies. The heel thickness is within 0.2 mm of the Barbbs in both side to side and front to back measurements. The main difference is that the Daisie heel remains far thinner throughout its length than does the Barbb, which really gives it the appearance of being lethal. The Barbbs taper outward significantly within an inch or so of rising from the ground.

The Barbb heel height is right at 4 1/2", whereas the Daisie is slightly higher, at >4 5/8", almost exactly 120 mm. Maybe 118.5. I find the Barbb heel easy to wear for an extended period, despite its steepness and thinness. I have done so on many occasions. The Daisie, while as of yet untested in the real world, is proving to be more of a challenge.

Does it bother any of you that I mix English units with Metric freely?

[Chorlini]

6 hours ago, mlroseplant said:

It is time to up my geek game here. I have recently acquired a digital caliper. Actually, I bought this as a birthday present for my son, who is involved in a number of diverse projects where knowing the precise measurement of certain components is critical. What I did not think of at the time was using this caliper to measure the thickness of high heels. For your viewing pleasure, I have included a photo of my thinnest stilettos, at least as measured at the tip. I measured right above the heel cap, as the cap tends to "mushroom" right away once you actually wear the shoes. Evidently, my thinnest heels are my Steve Madden "Barbb" mules, at about 6.6 mm in the north-south dimension, and just over 7 mm in the east-west dimension.

Nearly matching the absolute thinness of my Barbbs happens to be another Steve Madden model, my recently acquired Daisies. The heel thickness is within 0.2 mm of the Barbbs in both side to side and front to back measurements. The main difference is that the Daisie heel remains far thinner throughout its length than does the Barbb, which really gives it the appearance of being lethal. The Barbbs taper outward significantly within an inch or so of rising from the ground.

The Barbb heel height is right at 4 1/2", whereas the Daisie is slightly higher, at >4 5/8", almost exactly 120 mm. Maybe 118.5. I find the Barbb heel easy to wear for an extended period, despite its steepness and thinness. I have done so on many occasions. The Daisie, while as of yet untested in the real world, is proving to be more of a challenge.

Does it bother any of you that I mix English units with Metric freely?

You definitely upped your levels of geekdom and high heel nerd cred. 😄

[Puffer]

On 2/4/2022 at 3:40 AM, Histiletto said:

Sorry that I wasn't here to offer some comments in the earlier part of this discussion.  This is probably the only pair of stiletto heels that fit the actual definition. All the other heels incorporated this new available extremely thin stiletto creations with the already popular shaped heels, because there were drawings and paintings of the models and Hollywood actresses wearing really high thin heels that were motivators for Allied soldiers and now they could be achieved in real life. 

 These heels are of the original spike design that uses the thinness and strength of the stiletto to be taller and more slendered than the curved tapering of the 4 inch heels could be made prior to 1955. These types of heels are probably the reason people started to inappropriately referring to any of the thin and slender shaped heels as stilettos.

Sorry, but I find your comments and conclusions hard to follow.   The shoes in your first pic might have a heel that was intended to be described as a 'stiletto' when that term was coined, but for the reasons given in earlier posts it is not imho.   The stiletto heel, as widely produced and recognised for nearly 70 years, has a shape of the type illustrated by your other two pics.

If you wish to clarify your thoughts, with evidence, I'm sure I and others would be glad to have them.

7 hours ago, mlroseplant said:

...

Does it bother any of you that I mix English units with Metric freely?

Not in the slightest!   Those of us in the UK who grew up in an almost universally imperial world but became used to metric later (e.g. in studying science or engineering, and also as more and more products became metricated) are well-used to working in either, often on the basis of whichever is most convenient.   I tend to work in imperial for most construction tasks even though my materials will be sized in metric units.   And modelmakers will be very familiar with mixed scales, e.g. the US/European popular 'H0' model railway scale of 3.5mm:1 foot (which we don't use much in the UK, preferring '00' (4mm:1 foot), albeit on the same track gauge of 16.5mm).

[VirginHeels]

Can’t remember where I read it, but some shoe manufacturers take a stiletto as something with less than 56mm2 and one other said it was too much, should be 5mm2 or less. The 56mm2 I guess is more a traditional stiletto, a block heel now. The 5mm2 would be a modern one, one with modern materials.

If we were to take @mlroseplant figures, it would be something in the region of a 4.55mm2 to 4.64mm2 heel so would conform to the modern stiletto heel standards. Good olde pie R squared formula!!!

[Shyheels]

Golly, and I spare myself all this existential angst  by simply preferring block heels! 😊

Edited February 6, 2022 by Shyheels

[Cali]

3 hours ago, Shyheels said:

Golly, and I spare myself all this existential angst  by simply preferring block heels! 😊

But you miss the joys that only a pair of knee high stilettos can bring.🙃

[Shyheels]

31 minutes ago, Cali said:

But you miss the joys that only a pair of knee high stilettos can bring.🙃

Ah, but I have a pair of knee-high stiletto boots. I just happen to prefer block heels - they're more 'me' 

[mlroseplant]

9 hours ago, Shyheels said:

Golly, and I spare myself all this existential angst  by simply preferring block heels! 😊

I am quite sure we could examine the subtleties of block heels as well, if we so chose. After all, I have a caliper now! Perhaps I shall have to examine some of my block heels to see what makes them tick aesthetically. I would welcome any working definitions of a "block" heel. For example, how thin can a block heel be before it's no longer a block heel?

[Shyheels]

It’s like the missionary said when asked what constitutes pornography: I know it when I see it!

[Cali]

@mlroseplant do you mean the difference between a Cuban hell and a block heel?  Can't wait.

[p1ng74]

A T-Square is a good enough tool for defining block heels to me.  The back of a block heel forms a 90 degree angle with the floor.  Cuban heels have a slant, not 90 degrees.  Of course, there are varying degrees of slant, and a very slight slant might not even have any of the real visual effect of a Cuban heel, but I think this is the definition I have seen cobblers go with. 

Edited February 6, 2022 by p1ng74

[Pierre1961]

For me a block heel doesn’t decrease it’s thickness so much from the shoe to the floor. 

A cuban heel goes decreasing a lot. Plus the very obvious angle. 

[hhboots]

So much deep thinking and nerdiness in this thread.  I love it. 😍 Lol

I was initially going to say it's simple for me, its a stiletto if the heel tip is less than 1/2" (13mm) diameter in any direction.  But then started thinking about it and agree with many good points of view here... it should be proportional and mostly straight for at least half of the length, and probably at least 4" (10cm) in height.  Beyond that, its pretty much splitting hairs on each persons own preferences.

Edited February 6, 2022 by hhboots

[Puffer]

4 hours ago, Cali said:

@mlroseplant do you mean the difference between a Cuban hell and a block heel?  Can't wait.

A 'Cuban hell' is a regime run by a dictator called Castro.   A 'block heel' is (US) a contemptible person who lives close to you.