New Styles, Old Points/Four Gender-Specifics of Shoe Design

[genebujold]

Please read this post in full before you take the poll, as a lot of qualifiers are found towards the end - thanks!

- Gene'

Some new styles out there, not to mention a few points I'd like to make, so, here are some images about which I'll soon make a point (read on for quite a surprise!):

I think there are a lot of styles out there that would look very normal on a man, to the point where the only thing that might twig others would be the heel height. Even then, I am of the opinion that some styles, like the one above, would look more normal on a man than a woman, even with the added heel height!

Here're some others that aren't nearly as manly, but would nevertheless, in my humble opinion, look fine on a guy, particular with blue jeans, probably because the straps are wider, and black. Besides, if you just lowered the heel, it'd look like half a dozen men's styles currently on the market. So we're back to the only discriminator in terms of style is the height of the heel...

To bring my last point to home, I was once asked if a pair of genuine men's sandals I was wearing wearing weren't women's shoes. They were toe thongs I bought through Key West Sandals. MEN'S toe thongs.

More women's shoes I'd like to wear:

*****

Surprise!

Guess what, folks - the last four sandals pictured (below the four asterisks) were MEN'S sandals! Courtesy of Zappos.com

Sorry to lead you on, but I wanted to make a point: The lines of distinction between men and women's shoes are indeed blurring, at least with respect to sandals, except for the still designer-taboo issue of heel height.

Therefore, I put it to you - what is it, exactly, about heel height that makes it taboo for men's shoe designs and desired for women's shoe designs?

More to the point, let's explore the particulars of shoe design:

1. Spaghetti-strap sandals - feminine

2. Wide-strap sandals - masculine

3. Open uppers (pumps) - feminine

4. Closed uppers (oxfords) - masculine

5. Full of adornment (flowers, lace, etc.) - feminine

6. Void of adornment - masculine

7. High heels - feminine

8. Low heels - masculine

9. Pastel colors - feminine

10. Dark/rich colors - masculine

11. Shiny texture - feminine

12. Leathery texture - masculine

Why is it that these simple design locii seem to scream the difference between "MALE SHOE" and "FEMALE SHOE" in our society? More to the point, how do you feel each of these contributes to femininity vs masculinity?

I can understand the adornment issue - women put flowers in their hair and wear lace, not men. But is the issue of closed vs open uppers related to revealing the feminine curve? If so, I can accept that, as I've no desire to weare open-upper pumps.

And strap-width has, historically, been linked to the masculine/feminine range, despite countless instances of women wearing thick-strapped sandals (thin-strapped sandals among men are NOT the norm...).

So where does heel height fit in? Why is it relegated to the feminine side of our species, even in the form of thick chunck heels? Why do most men (and women) in the U.S. (and most other countries) consider the concept of a high-heel-wearing man to be "gay," regardless that the other aspects that govern the feminine-masculine continuum with respect to shoe design may be screaming "male?"

Take the poll and return...

[SF]

Hi, I like your post, you make some good points. I wear heels because they look and feel fine. I wear hh sandals almost exclusively (in public - gasp) without any problems. One pair that I have look a lot like the Franco Sarto slides you have posted. Wearing "womens" shoes is no big deal to me, my spouse or the folks out there that see me daily. SF......

[Rockpup]

I almost bought a pair of the 2nd harley davidson boots you posted up while I was visiting New Orleans for work. I only had one pair of shoes for work/wandering around town, but I was not in the mood to pay $130 for them. Not much into metal studs on my boots (void of adornment?). Not that I was worried about what the sales guy would say considering I saw him wandering around the french quarter in tight purple pants and platform heeled boots. Should have asked him where else one could find non fetish heeled boots in the area. Btw.. shopping in the french quarter for 'normal' things sucks. Just try to find a M-M null modem 9 pin serial cable.. Although I did find plenty of alcohol :drinking: :drinking: :drinking: My second trip I brought my 5" heel knee boots, but due to condition of the roads/sidewalks I was in danger of twisting an ankle in flat shoes let alone in 5" boots. So I wimped out after wandering about 1/2 block from the hotel. Ok, My ADD is in full gear, sorry for drifting off topic This may be better, I do agree that men's shoes mainly seem to be designed to disapear, otherwise they are intended to make the foot appear larger then they are, inflated doc martin style. Womens shoes tend to be a bit more decorative, and minimal showing off how small and delicate a womens foot is. I've got small feet for a guy, size 7, and trust me, with alot of dress pants my feet tend to disapear, and in heels you barely see my feet at all.. *shrug* BTW, I've seen very butch designed cowboy boots with 6" heels, so heel height alone does not make a shoe feminine. Jim

[GrayLion]

the thickness of the leather is a major factor - men's shoes classicly are boxcalf leather, ladies' shoes are much finer

[J-Nation]

I think the real answer, which Gene' was pushing towards, is that no single feature defines a woman's shoe as compared to a man's. This being so, I haven't voted because there is no "None of the above/All of the above" answer! Emma

[BobHH]

I would think that heel type (stiletto vs. chunky) would be a factor. Stilettos are thought of as feminine. The big, chunky heels on a closed shoe don't seem very feminine to me. I guess feminine would be more delicate, masculine more brawny, crude, whatever. But then, women can and do wear anything they want, and we think it's cute. But, for some reason, men can't be cute, or different. It must be a threat to ones masculinity to see a man in stiletto heels or open shoes or with nail polish. Why else would some people react the way they do? They must be very insecure underneath to perceive differences as a threat. Since they hold themselves superior to women, women can dress anyway they want, and it isn't a threat. If one man dresses in some "women's" clothes or shoes, then it says to them that men aren't superior to women, and they aren't anything (which may be true!)

[micha]

I would think that heel type (stiletto vs. chunky) would be a factor. Stilettos are thought of as feminine. The big, chunky heels on a closed shoe don't seem very feminine to me. I guess feminine would be more delicate, masculine more brawny, crude, whatever. But then, women can and do wear anything they want, and we think it's cute. But, for some reason, men can't be cute, or different.

It must be a threat to ones masculinity to see a man in stiletto heels or open shoes or with nail polish. Why else would some people react the way they do? They must be very insecure underneath to perceive differences as a threat. Since they hold themselves superior to women, women can dress anyway they want, and it isn't a threat. If one man dresses in some "women's" clothes or shoes, then it says to them that men aren't superior to women, and they aren't anything (which may be true!)

Hi Bob,

don't forget the old cliché: Guys wearing high heels are gay! In a german earring forum I'm finding always again the stupid question: May I wear an earring in the right lobe? Don't people think that I'm gay?

The fear of being considered as gay must be enormous! Not for me ...

micha

[BobHH]

Very true. The whole gay thing is very big in the USA, now, what with gay marriage being the main topic. Homosexuality is not what was intended with two sexes, which would seem obvious. So, the religious right condemns it, including with hatred and violence which, in itself, would seem to be non-Christian. But, it is a fact. What I don't understand is the apparent fear that the gay lifestyle might hold such attraction over heterosexuality so as to attract more people to it if it was accepted openly. Maybe there are more gay people than we suspect! It isn't attractive to me, but I accept that some people are that way and don't condemn them. Again, it is a threat to some, I think, to the point that they most get rid of that threat, or at least drive it out of sight. Too bad people aren't more confident of their own gender/selves/whatever. I don't feel wearing my heels makes me less a man, and I'm sure the girlfriend agrees. She thinks I am sexy in them, though she rarely wears very high heels herself.

[micha]

Very true. The whole gay thing is very big in the USA, now, what with gay marriage being the main topic. Homosexuality is not what was intended with two sexes, which would seem obvious. So, the religious right condemns it, including with hatred and violence which, in itself, would seem to be non-Christian.

But, it is a fact. What I don't understand is the apparent fear that the gay lifestyle might hold such attraction over heterosexuality so as to attract more people to it if it was accepted openly. Maybe there are more gay people than we suspect! It isn't attractive to me, but I accept that some people are that way and don't condemn them.

Again, it is a threat to some, I think, to the point that they most get rid of that threat, or at least drive it out of sight. Too bad people aren't more confident of their own gender/selves/whatever. I don't feel wearing my heels makes me less a man, and I'm sure the girlfriend agrees. She thinks I am sexy in them, though she rarely wears very high heels herself.

Hi Bob,

everybody in this forum knows that the big majority of guys wearing high heels is heterosexual and even mostly married. But normal people don't know it!

I belong to this endangering gay minority which insecures brave conservatives - especially G.W. Bush voters (*grin*). I think that we are really a minority. May be 3 to 5 percent of the population. But definetely much more in San Francisco, New York or Berlin! May be in my hometown Frankfurt too.

Gays on high heels are a minority within a minority. The majority of gays is wearing extreme male fetish outfit: biker boots, leather jackets, chaps and tight jeans. But the gay community is very tolerant - I did never experience any condemnance on high heels.

Ok, in a statistical context I'm abnormal. But the many heterosexual guys who don't dare to live their passion... for me they are really abnormal

micha

[loveheel]

Hi Genebujold, Thanks for that excellent study of women's versus men's shoes. You make some excellent points. Obviously, some things are dead giveaways that shoes come from the women's side, like flowers and thin heels. Otherwise, it depends much on how attentive the onlooker is. I think that I can even recognize women's shoes in such unisex styles as loafers. Women's loafers are always just a little finer, more stylish. Even the ticker heels are often slightly shaped, unlike the men;s heels wich are just a block. Great job.

[loveheel]

Hi,

I like your post, you make some good points. I wear heels because they look and feel fine. I wear hh sandals almost exclusively (in public - gasp) without any problems. One pair that I have look a lot like the Franco Sarto slides you have posted.

Wearing "womens" shoes is no big deal to me, my spouse or the folks out there that see me daily.

SF......

Hi SF,

I am glad to hear about your experience with sandals. I am going to San Francisco next week, and was planning to spend the day in HH sandals. I figure, if there is one city I can get away with that it must be San Francisco.

[Rockpup]

Micha: The "tom of finland" gay steriotype is very alive and well within the leather ranks. I know one leather/bondage guy who is very respected (bostoncuir) and is often sent insulting emails whenever he posts pictures of scenes involving high heels... He just laughs it off considering their argument is that he is ruining kink.. *grin* But there is a point.. Both myself and my boyfriend would be dificult to point out as being gay, not by choise, but by who we are. My interest in obvious heels is more fetishistic, and while I'd love to wear something, 99% of the time heels are not apropriate for me. But thats me. I do not know another gay man who wears heels in public and is not in some sort of drag while doing it. But I also live in a bit of a f***ed up town in southern Florida Gay guys will not cause heels to be acceptable, straight guys will. They will have to find it for themselves with shoes they find acceptable. Maybe Brad Pitt will wear some 5" stilletto boots? (does he count as straight?) Jim

[micha]

I am going to San Francisco next week, and was planning to spend the day in HH sandals. I figure, if there is one city I can get away with that it must be San Francisco.

Do it like me on CSD 2003 in Frankfurt

Pooh, this day was tropical - 36 deg Celsius! Who calculates it in Fahrenheit?

I wish you a nice and fascinating day on your sandalettes

micha

[micha]

Maybe Brad Pitt will wear some 5" stilletto boots? (does he count as straight?)

Jim

Brad Pitt on 5'' stiletto boots? This guy is really sexy. On 5'' heels - thats a hammer. I'm melting down But David Beckham isn't bad too. I wish to see him in a soccer game on 5'' heels with at least 5 goals :drinking:

As a gay guy on high heels you are really a little bit beyond. I don't feel as a crossdresser or as a dragqueen although I like such crazy outfits. Biker boots and shaved bald heads are not my interest. I love longhaired or crazy hairstyled guys with tight jeans and wearing high heels! What's your personal passion?

micha

[azraelle]

Two thoughts: :: All other things being equal, hi-heels make the butt more pronounced, especially while walking. Granted, as JinxieCat informed me not too long ago (I think it was her), if a woman wants to flirt with her hips, hi-heels aren't needed, but they do enhance the effect. Generally it is considered unmasculine, if not downright gay, certainly comical, for a man to purposely wiggle his tush when he walks, ala Dom DeLoise. :: Quoting from a recently posted article, "Masculinity is still the must­have factor in so many of the achievements that our culture prizes. In such circumstances, how can we possibly understand those who would voluntarily surrender this valued asset? We may have abandoned many of ourpreconceptions about the nature of the female but we still can¹t understand why on earth any man would want to be taken for one. Boys who want to play with girls' toys are somehow downgrading themselves." What real man is going to give up the ability to move swiftly, freely, and comfortably, if unstylishly, in low-heeled "sensible" shoes, for the relatively inhibitiveness, if not enslavement, of hi-heels that they now use, as they suppose, to control their women with??

[new_look]

with regards to loveheels comments of genes styles, although his examples easily show his point re womens and mens styles can be easly passed as the other, usually you can spot the female item of a type of shoe, particularly involving a heel who says that men forced women to wear high heels to control them. What a riduculous concept when it attributes to making the female more sexy and confident. in most situations. Also ancient history shoes that me have worn heels before, and not so long ago in the 70's with the platform styles, so why if given the choice can we not choose to wear heels. its all down again to stereotyping what the male and female should act like and wear, which doesnt fit the profile of e6veryone individually. whatever happened to 'variety is the spice of life' With this in mind, let society allow more variety. daz

[genebujold]

Hi, Azraele - you made a good point: ""Masculinity is still the must­have factor in so many of the achievements that our culture prizes. In such circumstances, how can we possibly understand those who would voluntarily surrender this valued asset? We may have abandoned many of ourpreconceptions about the nature of the female but we still can¹t understand why on earth any man would want to be taken for one. Boys who want to play with girls' toys are somehow downgrading themselves." As a husband and father, I've got both masculine qualities and feminine qualities. The problem is, I believe we were designed for significant overlap, yet somewhere along the way societal stereotyping stepped in and messed everything up to the point where there is a "feminine norm" and a "masculine norm." The feminine norm has been expanding over the last few decades around the globe while the masculine norm has been shrinking - pretty soon the only acceptable dress for men the world over will be a three-piece suit! I, for one, push that away - and am usually well-respected by my colleagues for it, as they don't want to have to "fit the mold" any more than I do. Be confident in being yourselves! Without being arrogant or obviously out on a limb. When society begins to take us seriously, the mainstream will take it's own baby steps.

[Rockpup]

Micha: Well, a recent pic that I've liked was this, except, I guess, the collar is a bit too wide for my taste, but thats just me.

A question: Do these count as womens shoes considering I know more guys who own/wear them then women?

Actually, another type of footwear is labled feminine by alot of retailers, but have their roots in a sport with around 95% male involvment. Puma's line of speedcat shoes: are modeled after their race car driving shoes, and are very comfortable. I see mostly men wearing them, but quite a few stores only carry them in the womens section.

*shrug*

Jim

[azraelle]

who says that men forced women to wear high heels to control them. What a riduculous concept when it attributes to making the female more sexy and confident. in most situations.

Also ancient history shoes that me have worn heels before, and not so long ago in the 70's with the platform styles, so why if given the choice can we not choose to wear heels.

1) I SAID: "as they suppose"! No where did I imply that women thought that way. That said, however, men are, at least indirectly responsible for women buggering up their feet for the last century, and directly as well for at least 80 of those years. If men in general weren't so turned on by the hi-heeled look, women wouldn't be using hi-heels to lead them around with. Also, up until quite recently, most jobs REQUIRED their women employees to wear hi-heels (it was part of the dress code for my mother as an elementary school teacher as late as the early 70's, for example, in Nevada). And in the vast majority of those businesses, again until quite recently, it was men only in the upper management who determined the sexist dress codes.

2) I didn't say that SOME men wouldn't take the choice if offered, just that MOST men wouldn't, if it was merely a chice. Again--why would they? The only thing that drives most straight men with regards to fashion (assuming they pay any attention to it at all) is what they believe will get them more chix to hook up with. Or more sexual favors with present steady spouses/GFs. This isn't just my opinion. Books have been written on the subject!

[genebujold]

I'm with you, Azraelle. Nevertheless, I agree that while society is preaching tolerance, it should be tolerant about something as ridiculously benign as this. Fortunately, most of society these days is reasonably tolerant towards a man wearing heels. I live in Las Vegas, am often out in public, and have never been harrassed for wearing heels.

[Tljakes]

There is one important factor not on the poll which a lot of people look at. It's on which side of the store the shoe came from..... Men's or....... We'll you get the picture...

[Guest]

well, I think that it really all depends on each person's perception of the term "masculin and/or feminine" & what it can/does mean to THEM, it does vary I beleive.

[5.5 Thrill]

Look at the date of the thread!!! Question: Do you think things are different now? Personally I think so. I would not have gone out in heels (5" Stilettos) four years ago like I do now. Things are changing.

[dingpat]

Look at the date of the thread!!!

Question:

Do you think things are different now?

Personally I think so. I would not have gone out in heels (5" Stilettos) four years ago like I do now. Things are changing.

Now before you get all excited about things changing, look at yourself first. Four years ago, you wouldn't wear heels out of the house, but now you have no fear about it. Maybe you've changed, and gotten courage, while the world has remained the same. I'm still in the fear stage of things, but I feel a little braver every week.

I'm not saying the world isn't changing, but We change too.

[Bubba136]

Speaking of wearing heels outside of the house, I wonder what has happened to StilettoScott? He hasn't been present since Aug 30. Wasn't he supposed to begin working part time at a shoe store? I am really curious to see if he actually began working at the store and if he is wearing heels while during working hours,

[roniheels]

Speaking of wearing heels outside of the house, I wonder what has happened to StilettoScott? He hasn't been present since Aug 30. Wasn't he supposed to begin working part time at a shoe store? I am really curious to see if he actually began working at the store and if he is wearing heels while during working hours,

Has anyone tried contacting him via personal message?

[Stilettoscot]

Hi guys, Sorry for the absence, but not only working my usual gig landscaping, but working Aldo (awsome!) Sat/Sun mornings from open to 2PM, but also bouncing in my usual club on Sat nights... Talk about going from being "girly" right to being a "tough guy"..LOL Things will quiet down soon, and I will make a thread about my recent heeling. Some new shoes, and some new adventures. Went to 6-Flags wearing these new wedges (Rue 21), and it was awsome! Bad phone pic, but the pedi was tight... BTW, I wear mostly "feminine" shoes, be they heel height, shape, and strappiness. Pointed toes, too... These wedges...definately feminine, as the French Tipped toes. But me?? Well, not so much...

[Bubba136]

Welcome home, StilettoScott! Great pair of wedges. Any unusual reaction while wearing them at 6 Flags? Can't wait to hear of your adventures and about your new shoes.

[roniheels]

Welcome back, Scott. I always love hearing about your adventures in high heels. Hope to hear more from you soon.

[Amanda]

Scot, You're awesome, do tell us about your experiences working in the shop. Amanda xx