Where is the point where you call one a cd?

[newheeler]

I am curious, where is the point when you call someone a crossdresser? Women wear trousers that used to be mens clothing. Women wear other things that supposed to be mens wear. Do we call them crossdresser? I think no. While for men whenever they wear something that womens supposed to they are crossdressers. Is having high heels considered as cross dressing, or a skirt/kilt? Or when you have all womens clothing on you maybe with a make up? Where is the line?

[heelguy36]

I would say that the line would be drawn when one member of a particular sex dresses and presents themselves in a way that intends the general public to perceive then as the opposite sex. Not all people succeed of course, but if the intention was there I would consider them as cross dressing. Just my opinion of course tho lol.

[HappyinHeels]

newheeler, While you have identified the double standard with women wearing men's styles and not being labeled "crossdressers" you are allowing that double standard to continue wondering "at what point" do you call someone a "crossdresser"? The answer is you never call them a "crossdresser" but call them by their given name or the name they choose to be known as. Biological men who present themselves in feminine attire want the same level of respect as biological women who wear more masculine style of clothing. If you called either one of these a "crossdresser" you may risk getting slapped. Since you are new to our forum you are probably not aware of all the people who post or MAINTAIN this site. Take a look at Dr. Shoe's avatar and look at the profile. She is clearly dressed as she intends but is a biological male. Would you call her a crossdresser?? Dr. Shoe posts and helps maintain this site with the other website team people wants the same level of dignity as any human being wants. Remember my friend, the best label is NO label at all. It is the content of one's character and not the clothes the wear that matters. HappyinHeels

[ilikekicks]

I am curious, where is the point when you call someone a crossdresser?

I dont. There is no point when I would do such.

Women wear trousers that used to be mens clothing. Women wear other things that supposed to be mens wear. Do we call them crossdresser? I think no. While for men whenever they wear something that womens supposed to they are crossdressers. Is having high heels considered as cross dressing, or a skirt/kilt? Or when you have all womens clothing on you maybe with a make up? Where is the line?

I'm going to answer this in a couple ways. You can choose what answer you want to use or even add an ' answer ' of your own as nobody holds the ' ownership ' of defining the word ' crossdresser '.

Heres a very poor example of why I feel nobody should own a definition like this :

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/crossdresser

verb (used without object)

to dress in clothing typically worn by members of the opposite sex.

If thats the ' definition ', ALL MEN are ' crosdressers ' as we all wear jeans and shirts. All WOMEN would be crossdressers as well. We ALL share a common ground in clothing.

Clothing typically worn of the opposite sex? I wear socks.. So does my ( hopefully ) soon to be wife.

I wear Jeans, she does too! Shirts? Yep! Both of us! Ear-rings, hair-pieces ( wigs ).. there is so much shared between the ' 2 genders '.. who(m) owns what? whats ' Typical '? Most of the women I know wear slacks/trousers/jeans/shirts/socks..

My answer(s) to your question on a personal level..

I own ' my ' clothes. I dont own ' his' or ' hers ' or ' whoevers ' clothes. The drawers on my dresser and the hangers in my closets arent really ' gender ' specific. I wear what I think is appropriate for myself. I wear *my* clothes. Not female nor male, but ' mine '. Some would call this a defensive type of answer and i would reply its an honest and forthcoming answer that is the absolute truth and reality of myself. Whats wrong with that? No labels needed, please.

I believe such to be the common mindset of those on this site regardless of age, gender, ethnic makeup, where they live, whom or what they live with..

The people here are of somewhat greater intellect and beyond the average idiot that needs to stereotype. There are a few acceptions to such but they are far below the average.

The term ' crossdresser ' to most here isnt looked down upon or up at. Its a ' blah ' type of term that really doesnt hold the stigma as others in the average realm of humanity might. Most in the world would see it as a derogatory term, most here would care less and say ' cant we talk about something interesting? ' as it doesnt matter to the majority of us here reading this what anyone is wearing. The stigmatism is somewhat lost as most of us know clothes are something to be enjoyed and not the ' end of the world ' or most important thing in life.

I personally dont know of any ' crossdressers ' as I dont see a gender for any clothing. Some people do though ( see a need for a gender label on clothing ).

Best wishes,

-Ilk

[ilikekicks]

Take a look at Dr. Shoe's avatar and look at the profile. She is clearly dressed as she intends but is a biological male. Would you call her a crossdresser?? Dr. Shoe posts and helps maintain this site with the other website team people wants the same level of dignity as any human being wants. Remember my friend, the best label is NO label at all. It is the content of one's character and not the clothes the wear that matters. HappyinHeels

Bravo!

What I wondered and I have asked ( I hope she doesnt mind me saying this in public/non private message ) is how she feels and how she would like to be addressed. I asked such BEFORE saying anything on the public forum.

As you stated, She has a name and would probably like to be addressed by her name as thats who she is.

Besides, she wants my UGG boots

[Foxyheels]

I'm a CROSSdresser, I get really angry when people suggest I can't wear what I like. Sorry everybody I just couldn't resist.

[Dr. Shoe]

Thanks for the name check guys! Labels are dangerous and divisive and at the end of the day it is only clothes. I'm guessing that Newheeler is having doubts about his own identity and also expressing frustration that females can wear what they like but guys can't. You are only a "crossdresser" if you self identify as such. I know a guy, a stalwart member here, whose entire wardrobe comes from the "girls' side of the store" and yet presents as completely male. He is most definitely not a crossdesser but a purist might disagree. Conversely, I know guys who only wear female nightwear and underwear and yet identify as CD. Personally, I have gone far beyond the typical CD/TV and it so happens that today is my first anniversary of the day I started to live as a woman full-time. I now live and work as a woman and I have changed all my documents to reflect this. However, I don't identify as an "anything" other than as me. The way I live my life now is far more compatible with the way I feel inside, though whether I actually feel like a woman is impossible to say. Tara x

[Mike Hinch]

At what point sort of depends on ones motive. Lets say I want to get dressed as Michelle and go shopping then I want to find a crossdresser to get together with and go out. Here the term is a complement or an asset but other people use the term to show that they (the person using the term) that they are an undesirable person. When I went to the fourth grade there was this totally cool dude Edie Dalopotateo who found every way to run me down. You know how it is by lifting others up we elevate the general well being for all but by running someone down that person perceives a slight gain. To me the term of CD could be a complement or an insult. Another way of looking at it is when I go out with stylish strappy sandals and a leather miniskirt but no wig and no fake boobs then I do not intend to pass. Probably there are many places to draw the line but I try not to lower my self to the point of issuing insults. Another term that of Female Impersonator is also found but used much less as an insult. That sort of thing takes some skill and practice. As for how one might use the term we might consider James 3 are ye not become judges with evil thoughts.

[Guest]

Thanks for the name check guys!

Personally, I have gone far beyond the typical CD/TV and it so happens that today is my first anniversary of the day I started to live as a woman full-time. I now live and work as a woman and I have changed all my documents to reflect this.

Tara x

Happy Anniversary Tara and wishing you many many more successful years. Hope you are celebrating accordingly

Al

[Guest]

Interesting question and answers. How long is a piece of string? Personally I prefer DVD's Al

[newheeler]

Glad the topic got so many replies and pretty quick, hoping i didnt offend anyone Why i brought this up is already in many of yours answers. Who decides what are male clothing or what are women clothing. Last year i was listening to radio, and a guy who works for marketing was talking about how perfumes are labeled as "for men" and "for women" while there is no such thing as smells based on genders. Its plain marketing strategy. Could it be the same for clothing? If it was decided without our opinion to live as they think we should, will it change ever? If it will how soon will it change, whatcha all think?

"The answer is you never call them a "crossdresser" but call them by their given name or the name they choose to be known as. "

Haha a good one Of course we call them on their given names, nicknames and so on.

"Remember my friend, the best label is NO label at all."

I also hate labels! Ive been labeled for my entire life. Maybe i just think i was, but it felt awful either ways.

"I personally dont know of any ' crossdressers ' as I dont see a gender for any clothing. Some people do though ( see a need for a gender label on clothing ). "

I don't either, and i also don't see labels on clothing either!

"Labels are dangerous and divisive and at the end of the day it is only clothes. I'm guessing that Newheeler is having doubts about his own identity and also expressing frustration that females can wear what they like but guys can't."

While at a point in my life it could have been the truth, now i'm fully aware of my gender and i'm happy with it But yeah the frustration is there because the society isnt as accepting as you all are here.

"Personally, I have gone far beyond the typical CD/TV and it so happens that today is my first anniversary of the day I started to live as a woman full-time. I now live and work as a woman and I have changed all my documents to reflect this."

My true and honest congratulations! May i bother you with pm some time?

[kikepa]

I am SO glad I logged in today! I charged in here intending to post a thread on this very topic, only to find it already here, and at the top of the thread heap!

Here's what happened:

I work in IT consulting, and have been since I was laid off a couple of years ago. I downsized into a 1 BR apartment. Although I have a ton of boxes in the garage, this is perfect for me.

I've been wearing heels and skirts inside my home on a regular basis for the last seven years, pretty much whenever I'm awake, and I sometimes crash in them. I've worn conservative heels and skirts outside my home on occasion, but almost never together, as I can brush off either of them as a fad, "just something different for club night," or "my girlfriend dared me."

Right? How many of us have been there? !!!

So, on several occasions I've worn either heels or a skirt to the office of my apartment complex, and none of the ladies there have batted an eye. I have pierced ears, and while I usually wear male earrings, I sometimes wear a conservative dangle or two. Some earrings scream "female," others do not, even dangles.

Personally, I'm not quite sure how I identify. I feel pressed by society to go one way or the other. While I sometimes wish I were born female, I'm just as happy as a male, and do not disparage walking around in jeans.

So, I walked into the office this morning wearing a jeans skirt, a pair of Clarks heeled clogs, and my most conservative dangle earrings.

Did I mention I sometimes do my nails? I don't wear them very long, but they're about 1/8" to 1/4" beyond fingertip, somewhat rounded, and I almost always have a clear polish on them. Today I had a near-normal color that most people don't even catch.

I was there to discuss an issue involving why they haven't finished repairing a broken window latch, but before I could open my mouth, the three girls in the office were exchanging glances, sort of an "Am I the only one who thinks this is a little odd?" look. Clearly they were looking to one another for positive feedback, and they were giving that positive feedback to each other.

So the story goes. Yes, there is a line in the minds of society which, once crossed, you're crossdressing, at least in their minds. That line is fairly gray, however.

I can hang out at a favorite bar that caters to everyone, including the GLBT crowd, wearing spiked heels and a skirt, and no one thinks I'm crossdressing at all. To them, the ones who're trying to pass as members of the opposite sex are crossdressers, while the ones who're decked out as members of the opposite sex while still obviously male are in drag.

The office staff are fairly representative of mainstream society, however, and while they'll merely think of me as on the male fringe if I wear wire earrings, a jeans skirt, paint my nails, or wear heels, any combination thereof communicates to them, in their own minds at least, I'm at least trying to appear as a member of the opposite sex, even if I'm clearly not.

Yet I can do all four and no one at the GLBT bar thinks I'm trying pass, although some would say I'm crossdressing.

So, terms (as I see them):

Transvestite: One who wears clothing typically worn by a member of the opposite sex. Women who wear pants aren't transvestites. Those who wear male underwear, particularly those with the overlapping fly designed to facilitate male urination, are transvestites.

Crossdresser: Those who wear a predominance of clothing typically worn by a member of the opposite sex. Thus, a woman in work boots, pants, a flannel t-shirt, and men's boxers, is a crossdresser.

Provided...

...that such wearing is contrary to their internal gender identity. If they identify as a woman, it's crossdressing. If they identify as gender neutral or a man, it's not. It's simply a reflection of their internal selves, and as such, deserves no such label.

So, for me, wearing skirts comes naturally. Wearing heels comes naturally. Painting my nails on occasion doesn't come naturally, but I view it as just monkeying around, although I usually keep my left pinky longer and varnished. Wearing earrings comes naturally, provided they'd not large hoops or chandeliers. If some of the players in the MLBA can wear it, I can wear it, and without feeling like I'm trying to be a girl.

Put them all together, and what do you have? You have me, kikepa, which means skirts or light breezes in Hawaiian.

But that's my internal locus. From society's point of view, I'm cross-dressing, a transvestite, or a transsexual wannabe.

Meanwhile, the shrinks want to put everything into neat little categories. They say I either suffer from transgender identity disorder (I don't actually suffer at all), or worse, that I'm a transvestic fetishist, even though my wear of predominantly women's apparel has absolutely zero tones of sexual stimulation or gratification.

Stupid shrinks! Society is a little smarter than they are, but not by much.

The coolest crowd is the one at the GLBT bar, who could care less what I'm wearing, or even if I show up with hair done and makeup (just once). The girls will still talk, flirt, and dance with me.

In summary, I suppose like beauty, what's CD or TV is largely in the eye of the beholder (self or others), with the possible exception of flagrantly gender-specific undergarments such as jock-straps and bras.

I wouldn't fault a girl who wore a jock-strap, though. Without our plumbing they could probably hide half a bag of pistachios down there!

[Guest]

I like that a lot Kikepa especially about the nuts .

Seems we could be dammed by what we desire or by the person watching, certainly the innuendos that I get from my work mates?

There had been a lot of banter within the family prior to get married, the joke was that we never was to, so I always said "Chris would be wearing the trousers". A role reversal was presumed. When we were finally talked into doing the deed, a certain family member let on to a work acquaintance both facts. I was congratulated the next day and on wearing the dress for the future ceremony, such presumptions? Never planned. (remember Chris was to wear trousers and that only).

Shortly I leaving my current employer, the latest rumour is I'm doing my last day in "drag" but I think that is to wind me up......heels yes for the afternoon but no more! sorry.

A little bit of knowledge (even inaccurate) plays to those that wish to "play games" or place these labels. Labels are easy for some - black and white?

whilst many of us live in various shades of grey.

Whether just footwear or more?

I think there's more to say but it''s late and I'm tired now but I hope some can laugh on the above "issues" as I do,

Al

[roniheels]

I have always disliked the term "cross-dresser." It can be interpreted in so many different ways, as we have all discussed. I think every day it is a "little, and I do mean little" easier for anyone, male or female, to wear whatever they feel most comfortable, either in private or especially in public. I wear women's jeans and some tops just because they fit me better, and no one hardly notices. Probably years ago, someone might have made a big deal out of this attire worn by a male. All we can do is wear what we want to wear and try to ignore the innuendos and labels.

[skirtedvik]

I am curious, where is the point when you call someone a crossdresser? Women wear trousers that used to be mens clothing. Women wear other things that supposed to be mens wear. Do we call them crossdresser? I think no. While for men whenever they wear something that womens supposed to they are crossdressers. Is having high heels considered as cross dressing, or a skirt/kilt? Or when you have all womens clothing on you maybe with a make up? Where is the line?

Generally speaking in Western society the "term "crossdresser" has disappeared for women since they can wear apparel that is utterly non feminine without any reactions.Transvestite and crossdresser are applied just to men,maybe when males have the same fashion options as women do without social scorn the term shall vanish too.For me I am a freestyler - wear "female" apparel in a manner as women wear former just for males apparel - gender honest and not trying to pass,fake parts,names and so on.

[Foxyheels]

As others have said its a very outdated term, numerous men now do traditionally female things. Guy liner, manscara and other things are common place. I often go out in female underwear, jeans and 4" heels. Earrings and bracelets are mostly sold as women's and MrsF has a couple of necklaces I often borrow but I present 100% as a male. So with often 90% of my clothes and accessories allegedly for women am I a cross dresser?

[Guest]

However, I don't identify as an "anything" other than as me. The way I live my life now is far more compatible with the way I feel inside, though whether I actually feel like a woman is impossible to say.

Tara x

I will agree with the identity factor. I am ME. Even when taking on a second persona when I was playing 17th century games, the period character was laid over not a replacement, having the ability to drink twice as much as normal was an interesting puzzle. Also found common by many members!

"whether I actually feel like a woman is impossible to say"

Do us guys/(girls) know what a man/(woman) feels like?I think the problem is that we have no reference of ourselves, it would only be possible after being the opposite gender with knowledge of both.

Further problems I'm sure arise for post op transgenders. Watching Rachael, full of nerves and chain smoking, it certainly didn't come across that she was comfortable yet and that was circa 9 months after. I wish I had contact now to ask a myriad of questions.

My stepdaughter, normally in jeans spent Friday preparing for a concert feeling "girlie" because she was in a dress for her show.

I believe now with what has come forward in this thread, it is unset, yet from outside of our community it is one piece and that is enough, the label is attached!

A question. Would I like to be female? Yes possibly but from birth but would I be here with this conversation, would I have the same thoughts? I have doubts.

Maybe a couple of girls could jump in please and give their answers to the same question and even better a female view of the thread itself.

Al

[Dr. Shoe]

I think if I knew what it was like to be me but then have been born as a female, I don't think I'd have liked to have been female. Does that make sense? In other words, I think that women squander all the benefits that they have being women.

[Dr. Shoe]

My true and honest congratulations! May i bother you with pm some time?

Be my guest.

[crotchboots-m]

hey its just a word that is used by people who have no clue about what is really going on anways..so screw it. you could explain it to them but wouldnt listen or understand it if u did

[meganiwish]

I dont. There is no point when I would do such.

In other words, I think that women squander all the benefits that they have being women.

Of course, as long as there's been people there've been conventions on male and female dress. To the modern eye, some earlier male dress might look quite female.

Actually, I never wear trousers or jeans except when acting, because I've never managed as far as I can see, to come across as gamine rather than tomboy.

How sad for our male brothers (could there be any other kind?) that it's so hard for them to be flamboyant. For a brief time it was nearly not so. David Bowie, Marc Bolan, they were men, but...

And then I look at women in sport gear and trainers and I think at least I got out of my pyjamas before I came out.

Dress up, chaps, better than dressing down. But I know you have a harder time than me. I'm not going to have an idiot abuse me for dresisng like a woman, am I?

[FreshinHeels]

Can I be the advocate of the devil here and just ask this question. Are we the right people to ask this question to? Cause I think when ye ask this question to the general public I think the answers would be quite different. I know we don't care but thats a different matter.

[SleekHeels]

So with often 90% of my clothes and accessories allegedly for women am I a cross dresser?

I think this question hits the nail on the head for me. When I wear the clothes I want to wear I am a "dresser" that's all. I think the "cross" part doesn't come from where the clothes were bought (which might be the mainstream definition), but rather from the intent of trying to "pass" as a woman with being "read" considered a failure. That's totally not applicable to me, I'm happy being called "sir" and at no time am I trying to hide the fact that I'm a guy, albeit with somewhat unconventional fashion preferences.

[Gudulitooo]

I know this is brutal but it is more convenient to call "a cat" a cat. CD's have debated a number of intermediate names to recognize where they stand within their community. You will find it on their social networks. Regards.

[Guest]

I think if I knew what it was like to be me but then have been born as a female, I don't think I'd have liked to have been female. Does that make sense?

In other words, I think that women squander all the benefits that they have being women.

I think that was what I was suggesting Tara. We know the me but not opposite gender me and would we then recognise it if it was me? doubtful.

I think we are all curious as male/female of the opposite gender, in part often it's being able to predict or satisfy our understanding of our partners, their ways and whims, how they feel hurt, how they hurt etc.

Extending that to how do their bodies, emotions and feelings work and why?

To be able to find the right factors to ask about and to find the right replies could be as difficult to define as what an artist was thinking whilst painting a masterpeice 200 hundred years after it was painted.

There has been numerous comedy films of body swops, dad - son and mum - daughter but crossgender it's only a smutty few minute sketch sequence with little or no intelligence attached (one of the Scooby doo films comes to mind). I believe because of taboos and it's too big to handle seriously or accurately?

Now we are moving deeper from the original question. Getting very deep.

Al

[Gudulitooo]

So with often 90% of my clothes and accessories allegedly for women am I a cross dresser?

Here is how I understand how people describe themselves :

Transgendered persons are born with the wrong body, it does not match their gender since the beginning. When a male transgendered wears male clothes, I suspect her to feel like crossdressing, doesn't you Tara ? Thus for her, wearing women clothes is reflecting her true gender.

A particular feature of crossdressers is the intend to be mistaken as women in real life, and for transvestities, during sexual activities (and only a few accessories are necessary). It is more a kind of "Role Playing Game". But they are men in their head.

Now it is completely different for a guy born in a male body, whos gender matches his body, and who wants to be recognized as a guy, but with an attire "out of the ordinary".

This is freestyling. Or fashion. Or interest in history. Whatever.

Regards.

[HappyinHeels]

newheeler, You definitely got the forum revved up which is what gives it strength and life. Whilst some of the comments may SEEM harsh they represent more an advisal that a one-sided label does get people riled up. Take another look at what Dr. Shoe wrote about dressing to match how I feel". She wants to look as good as she feels and get the same level of dignity as amy one else. Look at Kikepa's fine piece of commentary. Obviously he feels an enormous tumult inside and the quick application of a label only intensifies this. I appreciate Kikepa's definitions of the different terms but they are, to me irrelevant, since he is "Kikepa" to me and I accept him "AS IS". I need no labels or rules to come to that conclusion. The point of this website is to unite people, men and women, worldwide who love heels with whatever they decide to wear them. a girl puts on 5" stiletto heels does NOT mena she wants to be seen as a slut any more than a guy strapping on 5" wedge heels under his stretch jeans intends to be seen as "crossdressing". If one assumes someone is trying to pass then is jumping to a conclusion that may have never been there in the first place. We are who we are and we are here to HELP each other every way possible. HappyinHeels

[JeffB]

Certificate of Deposit? Compact Disc? Golly! No one has ever called me that! But seriously, I stopped worrying about being labeled this or that years ago, I mean, females who wear men's clothing could be called crossdressers, yet they aren't while we are, just because we choose to wear women's footwear. Yeah, I know, bias out the wazoo, and that crooked thinking by the populace isn't going to change anytime soon, if at all. So, why worry about labels? Not worth my time, not worth your time.

[lorriette]

Gudulitooo's statement is a reasonable brief guide to mainstream labels, but if WE label ourselves in those tones, are we not perpetuating an undesirable human trait; i.e. labels?.

[Shafted]

Labels, can't live with them, can't live without them. There only words. They are there to describe an individual. I would say descriptive labels such as crossdresser or transvestite are valid whether we agree with them or not. Labels such as freak or weirdo just don't cut it, even though I have considered myself a bit of a freak (in a good way). Take ownership in society's labels of you if they are in any way accurate. This is the first step. Don't try to create a new label. This will make it harder. This is a lesson that society teaches for any who care to listen. Classic case that everyone should be aware of is the use of the word gay to describe homosexuals. This created a huge amount of animosity between homosexuals and heterosexuals. It was seen as a monumental perversion of the word gay (meaning happy) and a attempt to shed the stigma associated with homosexuality. Looking back on it now creation of the new meaning of gay was a monumental failure, the stigma is now attached to the word gay. Lesson: Let's not make the same mistake.