The MAN look, with heels

[Dr. Shoe]

This is not a TV/CD site. Some people are that way and some people are not. Some are men who just wear heels as part of a male wardrobe and others are those who love heels but cannot wear them unless they are wearing them with other items of "female" apparel. On the other hand there are females who post here too.

It takes all sorts to make a world and any site that supports an item of clothing that is normally associated with females is bound to attract some transgendered people too.

[yozz]

I also do not experience this as a TV/CD site although sometimes it does need corrective action to keep it that way. But different people may have different definitions and think that someone who does not want to look like a woman but wears heels and a skirt, as some of our members do, is a TV/CD. They have not grasped the essence of free style fashion. That is a pity. It hurts a bit when it is one of the few females that are posting in the mans sections without being here because they support their hubby who wears heels. This thread is exactly about the free style fashion. a man who wears items of clothes from both sides of the isle, in particular shoes, but is still wanting to look very much like a man. Which most of us think can be done. It is just that you have to have the proper taste to make it look good. But what is so special about that? The same holds for women putting together an outfit. Someone whose circumference is greater than his/her length will have a very difficult time looking good in stilettos although I would love to see a picture of someone who can pull that off. Y.

[ChipsHH]

So I hope people are voting Only 3-4 days left to vote and sticking to the topic, just to clarify

[ilikekicks]

Yozz.. "a man who wears items of clothes from both sides of the isle, in particular shoes, but is still wanting to look very much like a man. Which most of us think can be done." I dont think it can be done, I know it *has* been done. .

[HappyinHeels]

ALL, Reading this thread reminded me of the other thread entitled "courage" and whether or not this site has encouraged the guys to wear heels in public much to the chagrin of members like Amanda. I suspect that it has but I also realized something else. I now realize that there are some people who wear them even more IN SPITE OF narrow-minded people who try to impose "The Template" upon the rest of the world. I'm positive if some societal, self-appointed fashion dictator decreed that "no genetic woman will wear long pants, or fedora hats, or tattoos that there would be holy hell to pay. It's not your choice of shoes or hair or clothes that ticks me off it's the intellectual hypocrisy of defending a double standard. HappyinHeels

[ilikekicks]

ALL,

Reading this thread reminded me of the other thread entitled "courage"

Damn good thread!

and whether or not this site has encouraged the guys to wear heels in public much to the chagrin of members like Amanda. I suspect that it has but I also realized something else. I now realize that there are some people who wear them even more IN SPITE OF narrow-minded people who try to impose "The Template" upon the rest of the world.

HiH.

I say this in sincerity and as a caring person.. I try not to do anything in spite and would beg others to please adhere to the same rule for themselves.

When we do things in ' spite ', it brings us down to something lesser then who/whom we are. It takes away the best of us.

My perception of Amanda is that of a well rounded person but one whom really doesnt understand a lot of things. Same as myself and for that matter, all of us. We are all no different. None of us is better then the next person or to sound ' religious ', none of us are without sin thus we shouldnt cast stones.

Instead of casting those stones, we should all instead just accept people as they ' are '. We are all good.. bad.. lovers, haters, weirdos, smiling, crying..

I'm positive if some societal, self-appointed fashion dictator decreed that "no genetic woman will wear long pants, or fedora hats, or tattoos that there would be holy hell to pay. It's not your choice of shoes or hair or clothes that ticks me off it's the intellectual hypocrisy of defending a double standard.

HappyinHeels

I dont see it as a ' double standard '. I see it as nothing more then an obstacle and it will be crossed sometime by each of us in our own ways. Im no saint and as I have said in other threads, Im not proud of my past and it took a special individual to take me into their life and show me that I can just ' be '.

I can say, in 100% truthfulness, that I have walked a few miles in her shoes.. er.. her boots actually ( I think I might have bought them? I dunno ) but I never appreciated then till a few weekends ago.

I wasnt trying to fool anyone, and I certainly wasnt trying to pull off a ' man look ' or ' woman look ', I was just being ' me '.

Enough about Amanda, How bout that ' Man look ' in heels? :wink:

[swollen]

Wow. What a great outcome! The only remaining woman who posts anything regularly in the main forums gets banned for expressing an opinion..? Furthermore she's banned AFTER apologising for taking the thread off topic... Amanda has contributed more to this place than any other female as far as I can tell, and she deserves better treatment than this. As far as I can see her point in this ridiculous thread had been to say that she personally found men in heels unattractive and silly. Secondly, that the site was being dominated by transvestites. The first is a personal opinion, the second is clearly a fact. The moderators claim that transvestism is not welcome here, despite having Galleries of men in skirts, etc, and two of the moderators are clearly cross-dressed in their avatar. Given that the forums now consist primarily of blokes talking about wearing/buying women's shoes, clothes, etc, I'd say Amanda had it about right. It really doesn't make sense for anyone (HappyinHeels) to talk about the hypocrisy of double standards while such confusion exists over the site's themes and orientation. Personally I couldn't give a damn who wears what, but a site dedicated to High Heels might be expected to be slightly more female orientated in its themes and tolerance? Oh and "ilikelicks", anyone who goes out of their way to describe themselves publicly as a 'caring person' probably isn't. Oh, and Tech, as you've deleted my profile pic and avatar should I assume I'm in the naughty book, too? Jeez...

[HappyinHeels]

ALL (and swollen too), There is a double standard as it relates to freedom to wear what one wants--it is certainly plain that women can wear any manner of clothing from very feminine to quite masculine without ridicule or repercussions while men don not have the same latitude and that's the double standard I abhor and was talking about. As far as what Amanda has contributed I am aware that she has expressed her opinion (her right) and has posted a lot on the website. But something else struck me as well. Look at those number of posts and then note the "reputation rating". It is zero. My guess is that this site's founders/designers wanted to guage the contribution factor of members. My analysis resides in the propensity of some to go negative about things they don't understand or just despise. I would agree that allowing photos of "men" dressed in feminine attire may not square with the stated goal of not allowing obvious TV/CD content on the site but this would be ignoring the fact that this site is dedicated to high heel shoes which are worn with clothing. The shoes are accessories. Any discussion of heels would have to include one of what outfits they are worn with. This brings us back to the central point here- human behavior is such that one tends to get critical and defensive when one perceives a threat. Are anonymous people in heels and skirts really a threat to you or anyone else?? We are a far-flung community of people who share a love of heels. We should never stray from that and remember why we are here and learn again to listen, appreciate, and absorb all that surrounds us. HappyinHeels:wavey:

[SleekHeels]

I voted "no" but that's just my personal preference to be clean-shaven as part of an overall look I feel comfortable with. But if others can make the look work then good luck to them.

I think it's interesting how the other gender-related issues came up under this particular thread. I mean, men have a free choice of whether to grow a bear or not, but to an extent women have facial and body hair quite naturally but they go to great efforts and expense to eradicate it under immense social pressure. It just goes to show how strong cultural norms are over our natural state (can you imagine birds pulling all their feathers out to look "beautiful"?). As for heels, they're an entirely cultural creation, it's no more "natural" for one gender to wear them over another. However, the fact remains that I shouldn't be at all surprised if my wife thinks I look silly in stilettos or classifies me as a transvestite for wearing them, because that's the cultural norm, but I'd hope we could avoid hostilities and discuss the matter openly and come to a compromise that respects each others feelings.

And yes, sometimes I do feel "silly" wearing heels, not because of society's reaction to guys wearing them (women in heels can get lots of disapproval from other women too), but because in certain situations they're just totally impractical (like walking on cobbled streets) or even dangerous (clack-clack-clacking alone on a dark street at night)... and women might feel silly in heels for just the same reasons.

Finally, it's impossible to separate fashion from gender - just about every clothing store is divided into mens/womens, and even this forum "for the girls" and "for the guys"... sometimes issues around heels will cross those gender boundaries and challenge them, and on the whole the moderators do a difficult job well to distinguish this from CD/TV/TS-specific issues.

[NICHOLAUS]

Amanda cheers to you! I agree with you. Sometimes it's tuff to be honest, that's just my opinion. I sometimes get discouraged looking at some of the pictures of people here, and I do laugh. Sorry dudes. I also laugh at myself when I goof in my appearance. I do this when I go to shoe stores and try on different styles of womens shoes and look at myself in the mirror wearing them. But this is where people can come and get the feedback they so desperately need from people who are in their same shoes. And they need it! I have to pick out about 25 percent of this stuff that I can apply to me and the rest is non appliable. As with everything some guys can look good in pumps and pull it off and others well , just can't, even though their heart tells them this is what they need to do. We need this site and I do love it, it's just too hard to pick apart whats OK and what's not as the times and fashions change. I like a beard and mustache with my high heels.

[Histiletto]

The MAN look? This has been prejudiced by stereotyping. Most men can't be considered a Hercules, a John Wayne, a Clint Eastwood, a William Wallace (Braveheart), or a Shrek. However, society still has its ideals for men and women to emulate in order to be considered acceptable models of society. A couple of centuries ago, socially perfect women were only seen at public venues in dresses. Now they have more choices, which includes jeans forcing everyone to check a little closer than the silhouette to determine a sex, especially if a woman has a really short haircut or a man lets his hair grow out some. We probably should consider that woman have already given us the MAN look with heels.

[ilikekicks]

Wow.

Oh and "ilikelicks", anyone who goes out of their way to describe themselves publicly as a 'caring person' probably isn't.

You know what, you might be right. Im really not a ' caring person ' to those whom would seem to belittle others. To all else, live freely and be happy in what they do.

Have a great day.

[hhboots]

You know what, you might be right. Im really not a ' caring person ' to those whom would seem to belittle others...

...

Really a shame how that turned out, hopefully everyone just cools off and moves on. While her opinion might have been a bit harsh, and stating it more than once was a bit inappropriate, I would like to see Amanda return after her "cooldown", but would be a bit surprised at this point if she did.

[jmc]

Swollen,

Amanda Snake has not been banned permanently, she has simply given a few days to cool of from the antagonism. We wouldn't ban Amanda at all, but we really don't need all the "bad blood".

As for the "transvestites", well, you have clearly forgotten what the word "community" means, in that if you see things you don't like or agree with, you point them out, share your thoughts rather than just get angry and rant about it. It is physically impossible for us (the staff) to fully monitor every thread all the time, we have lives too and HHplace is a volunteer operation. Letting issues escalate, then ranting about them helps nobody. That's why there are facilities for all of us to report inappropriate content.

As far as we are concerned, we draw the line when a person presents him/herself as a member of the opposite sex. When a guy is posting pictures of himself AS A WOMAN, that is inappropriate content for our site. Tech has already pointed this out to you so please go back and read the last two sentences again.

Hey, if a guy wants to wear a skirt, so be it, he's hardly a "TV/CD/TG" is he??? The confusion on this point seems to come from people seeing things on our site that dont fit in with their pre-conceived ideas, so they just assume that because its still there, that we must be ok with it. In fact, it may still be there just because we cannot fully read each of the hundreds of threads and posts that are submitted each month, we just dont have the time to plow over it all.

This is a community, not a "slagging match", the intention is to have everybody help out, have us all work together. For the most part, the vast majority of members do help out and bring our attention to things that are going wrong and things that are inappropriate. It seems that there will always be a few who will view things the wrong way...

Rather than sit back, do nothing, stew on it and make up accusations about things we haven't even seen, why not chip in for once and actually help.... The "report post" button is that little red triangle with the exclamation point in it, right down there in the lower left corner of every posting. It's really easy to use, just click it and you will get a message box where you can tell us why you are reporting the posting. Then just hit "send report" and you are done. That would surely be far more beneficial than simply starting a row and accusing others of not doing their part. The truth is, we do as much as we can, but cant be everywhere all the time. Pitch in for once!

Further, if you have an issue with one or more moderators then say so privately. Drop one of us a PM and ASK what the situation is. All too often people have made accusations based on what they "think" rather than what's actually the case, simply because they do not see all the facts. If they had simply asked, they would have received an explanation and a whole lot of strive would have been avoided. We cannot post every detail about every fracas for everybody to see and we are fairly certain you wouldn't want us to.

As for your avatar and profile pic: No, you're not in the dog house, but they really were not suitable at all for this website. Before you say "but I've used those for ages", refer to the points above....

I didn't actually see them before then, they were pointed out by several others who did.

So in conclusion, if you see ANYTHING that might look like double standards, unsuitable material or anything else, please, just ask or report the post/thread/gallery/attachment/etc, so that it can be dealt with properly. That way we don't end up with people driving threads way off topic, and people getting angry over things that really are not even an issue...

[swollen]

JMC, I don't think you'll find any 'rants' anywhere in my posts in this thread. That was going on before I contributed and the temperature of the topic was already rather high... My secondary posts occurred after the member concerned had been (temporarily) banned and where she was not able to reply to further comments or criticisms of her which had been added in her absence. You and the other moderators will obviously run the site according to your own standards and as you see fit. That's your affair. I see that if I hit the 'report post' button I'll be able to report a post... Thank you for clarifying so many other points for me. S.

[Charlie]

I don't wear skirts, blouses, or dresses (in male mode) with heels. I don't wear stilleto heels or 'fetish' styled heels of any kind for that matter. I also realize that others do in private and others still do so in actual public settings which takes courage and self confidence that I'm not sure I could muster up even if I were inclined to wear these things. For this courage of conviction, I have nothing but respect for those that do this. I like to read what they have to say because much of what they say can be applied to other facets of life. This is why I angrily defended what I took to be blatant disrespect. In the future I will instead keep a sense of humor about such matters. Charlie

[UpBy5]

Actually I kind of agree except that the only reason it looks "daft" is because there are so few guys doing it. I suspect that the first few women to wear trousers "looked daft".

Dr. Shoe is spot-on, as usual. My mother was a kid when Amelia Earhart first became a celebrity via newsreel shorts in movie theaters. According to her, that was the first big public display of women wearing slacks. Mom & all her girlfriends (highschool) immediately hit the Bank of Dad and went shopping for slacks which, at the time, were in very short supply and not at ALL seemly for proper young women. The guards at the Bank of Dad and the powers that be in the garmet industry at the time, were not up to the full frontal assualt of a nation full of single-purpose teenaged and other younger women. The vault floors at all branches of the Bank of Dad were clearly visible by the end of the month, Great Depression or no Great Depression. The harrumphing of elders had exactly zero effect. Mom and her friends were the "bees knees"...she actually said that to me. To get our HH thing generaly accepted, we need a male Amelia to get it rolling. Not a movie/rock star, although that doesn't hurt (they are always doing something off-beat; they're artists)...more of a Richard Branson type...someone with that sort reputation as "man's man" who gets things done, if a bit flamboyantly, in the process; a successful person independent of the Hollywood aura. An entertainer in heels wouldn't cause much of a stir. I think most men would feel much "safer" emulating a Richard Branson style statement than one from Mick Jagger. You know, a bit more James Bond, a little less Elton John if we expect a broadly-based acceptance.

UpBy5

.

[SandalFan]

Last November, I saw an interview with Ruper Grant. He was wearing long hair and a full beard. He looked so awesome that I decided to grow one myself, and I love it.

Funny thing though... try as I have, I am unable to get myself in any frame of mind to wear my heels anymore, either in public or private. Combined with my waist-length hair, I feel more dashing - or "manly" - than effeminate, and my heels just don't work for the look I'm presenting now. Even funnier is that I don't mind. I love my heels, but I'm also a lot more physically comfortable in my Dingo and Skechers boots, and they look much better with my hair and beard.

[Histiletto]

Cowboy boots are known for having high tapered block heels, even to heights around 4 to 4.5 inches depending on the size of the boots and the thickness of the soles. Any well-heeled country person wears these dressy boots for the social events, not for the chores of their vocation if they has any good sense for the health and safety of their ankles. Lower heels are more practical in physically demanding occasions. High stilettos should probably be worn in much of the same context. Being as men have been socially discouraged in wearing high (pick your type) heels publicly, they have the desire to wear their heels all the time. Thus, men wearing heels are viewed as somewhat fanatic or fetishistic. Heeling for women doesn't have the same effect of urgency because they have been able to consistently satisfy the desires they have had. Therefore, women are more practical about their heeling activities, at least most of the time. Women have the expertise in coordinating heels with their clothing selections and since they have delved into menswear, they are qualified to show men what items go best with the heels men choose to wear. The hard part is getting the social attitude out of they way so that women would be willing to share with high heeling men.

[Maximilian]

Incorporating heels as part of a 'manly' look requires planning and specific heel matching. Very feminine heel s are hard to pull off if when, except for the heels, the rest of the clothing and accessories are very masculine. If a masculine looking guy wants to wear very feminine heels (strappy stiletto sandals, pumps etc..) and manage to pull it off, he'll probably need to be of a certain physique (women as well. An overweight woman would look bad as well in very feminine heels), i.e. thin-proportional to his size and well groomed. Being well groomed in general is key for wearing heels. For the 'manly' look, I'd therefore suggest block/cuban/cowboy boots style heels. As for the recent commotion regarding Amanda's opinion about the types of people dominating the forum, my 2 cents are that she is entitled to her opinion and that it shouldn't discourage any guy on the forum from wearing what they want in public. The honest truth is that Amanda's opinion about stilettos worn by a guy and apparently any sign of femininity worn by him is shared by most people on the planet. They consider us to be transvestites, cross dressers, drag queens, homosexuals etc... Few women and far less men would see beyond the stereotype and try to make an assumption about us which wasn't based on our fashion style. It would take years and a massive effort from the fashion world as well as popular culture to try and eliminate/soften the stereotype. But why would they do that when so few of us try to challenge this perception? We are therefore left with 3 options my friends: 1 - Cave in to your own fears and social pressure and fight the urge to wear clothes that you like, a battle you will most likely lose because being told what not to do only excites a person more by doing it. 2 - Lurk in the shadows or the safety of your home and wear your choice of clothing/footwear. 3 - Accept the fact that most people won't understand or like your style. So what? What made their opinion matter, especially on your own time?! Wear what you want in public which, over time, will make you more confident and make you feel good about yourself. We live only once. If wearing what you want might cause problems for you with some people or some places, simply avoid wearing those styles there. Some people will think you're a cross dresser or transvestite by simply by wearing women's jeans, others by wearing heels, others by combining heels, a skirts and makeup. There is no clear point that people agree on when a man is a cross dresser or transvestite. I myself wear heels, skirts, some dresses/tunics and even makeup. By 99 percent of people's opinions, I'm a full blown transvestite when I decide on wearing a very feminine style. Yet what matters is MY opinion which is that I'm NOT a transvestite because it takes more than just clothes/shoes and makeup to pretend to be a woman. I don't act like a woman, nor do I add any padding to give myself a more curvy look. I use my given name and talk normally when presenting myself in a feminine manner. Full power to transvestites though who I applaud for being themselves and who's fashion style/behavior pose a risk to society as much as a kitten. If I was a transvestite, I'd be proud to admit it. It takes guts to be one. However, I am a cross dresser simply because I do wear clothing and shoes originally designed exclusively for women. In fact, all of us high heelers are basically cross dressers, unless the heels you choose to wear are designed as unisex. I'm not offended by the term. Neither should you. If more designers had the balls to design heels and other feminine clothing for men as well, then I wouldn't be considered a cross dresser. Women have cross dressed for decades before those style were fully acceptable. So shall we, with our heads high! All we can do is to change individuals opinions about our fashion choice. If you can make just 1 person change his/her mind, then that's a small but important victory for us all.

[HappyinHeels]

Maximilian, My warmest thanks for your post. You have eloquently articulated the present situation that confronts many of us. I follow the third option for it contains the inescapable fact that our lives here are a one-shot deal so one might as well be as relaxed as possible while living. Confidence in oneself is the key, and, when it comes, it fills one's heart and mind with the energy needed to look the world in the eye and live your life by YOUR terms and nobody else's. The torch of liberty burns brightly within you and I am very glad you are here! HappyinHeels:wavey:

[hhboots]

Wow, very well thought out and excellent words Maximilian. I don't think that could have been said any better.

[swollen]

No one in this thread has ever remotely suggested that transvestites, tgs or crossdressers aren't entitled to do exactly what they want to do... That's a battle to be fought in the wider world for those here who care to do it. Some of us simply find the end results laughable. That's our right too. No? The aesthetic appeal of high heels on shapely female anatomy is quite altered when worn by men. It's simply got nothing to do with being small-minded, intolerant or hostile to clothing culture or gender rights. Amanda's main point, that the site is now dominated by transvestites, is entirely born out by the (often indignant) responses to this bizarre thread. There are many unisex items of clothing; shirts, pants, belts, gloves etc, that are embraced by both sexes for reasons of practicality as well as fashion. But delicate, sensually shaped and provocative high heels are as culturally loaded and semiotically 'gendered' as it gets. Some of us will continue to enjoy the (occasional) post from those women who enjoy sharing their own love of heels with the men here who appreciate them for it. We feel we have that right while sharing a site given over to the subject. Wear what the hell you like, but don't belittle others for NOT thinking you look cool, or for expressing their own aesthetically grounded opinions.

[hhboots]

Swollen, why do you continue to increase the rhetoric in this thread with each reply? Who is belittling who here? Most of the posts here have been supportive of Amanda to express her opinion, she had a valid point in making the statements - and from the perspective of the vast majority of people in the world, men wearing heels doesn't look right, that's just the way it is. There is a small number of guys in the world that want to wear heels, don't you think we realize most of the world does not accept that? We have a small community here at HHP that support each other with all of our differences and consider this site to be a place where we can talk to others that have similar experiences and get constructive opinions. When you make comments like "Some of us simply find the end results laughable" and you keep repeating that, its not constructive to the community here. Yes, you have the right to voice your opinion, but if we want to hear that over and over again, we can go right outside and get that any time, so why persist in stoking the flame? Is that helping Amanda or anyone else for that matter?

[swollen]

hhboots, I'm not 'increasing the rhetoric', merely replying to specific posts as they arise. There are presumably many websites where 'transvestite' content is entirely welcome? According to the moderators this is NOT one of them. But the message is rather mixed, I'll admit. Have fun.

[SleekHeels]

Sometimes I'll wear my heels, look in the mirror and think I look ridiculous. It happens. I'll laugh and think "thank goodness I didn't go out looking like that" and try a different outfit/combination until I find something that works for me.

Perhaps many women get their fashion mistakes out of the way during their teenage years (with a bit of hit-and-miss advice from friends), whereas guys generally don't have the opportunity to develop their sense of style... particularly guys whose desire to wear heels is so strongly subdued and isolated by social preconceptions.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that sometimes we look ridiculous because we've chosen to wear something that looks ridiculous, while other times it's in the "eye of the beholder" (i.e. the social conditioning of the beholder). We sometimes even do the former deliberately in order to challenge the latter (like the trend for wearing odd socks).

And that leads to what I think is the root of the original question as to whether a guy wearing heels needs to incorporate other aspects of feminine appearance, or if he can incorporate heels into an emphatically masculine appearance. In terms of changing social attitudes I think both approaches can be done positively or negatively... so perhaps an underlying question is "Is the man look with heels more effective as a shock tactic or as a more subtle approach in changing social attitudes?".

[HappyinHeels]

hhboots, You're right and, as Jay Leno would say, "EXACTLY!" HappyinHeels

[roniheels]

And that leads to what I think is the root of the original question as to whether a guy wearing heels needs to incorporate other aspects of feminine appearance, or if he can incorporate heels into an emphatically masculine appearance. In terms of changing social attitudes I think both approaches can be done positively or negatively... so perhaps an underlying question is "Is the man look with heels more effective as a shock tactic or as a more subtle approach in changing social attitudes?".

And getting back to the original spirit of this post, I have always admired and found the look of a woman in pant suits and stiletto high heels very attractive and stylish. That is the look that has inspired me to wear what I wear with my high heels in public. It's like the reactions I get when I am seen in public in high heels: there are negative reactions, there are positive reactions, there are some "I could care less" reactions. But like all opinions that are expressed at this site and the reactions I receive, I respect all of them and thank them for expressing them.

[ilikekicks]

But like all opinions that are expressed at this site and the reactions I receive, I respect all of them and thank them for expressing them.

I had to read that 4 or 5 times for my light to go on. Something came to me.

' Opinions that are expressed '. Having an opinion means that there was some ' thought ' or entertaining the idea of something.

If people are at least willing to give a thought about ' The Man Look, with heels ', maybe its not an uncommon thing.

It doesn't matter weather or not the thought is ' Thats F-ing gay! ' or if its ' I think that guy would look awesome in heels! ', the thought is there.

If the idea or thought is there, maybe there is a chance that if enough people think about it, the idea might gain popularity. Doesnt matter the opinion, but just that people could even consider the idea in a mainstream way.. Thats progress!

Every thought or idea has to start somewhere..

[Histiletto]

Yes, thoughts are important, but others need to see men wearing heels in order for them break out of their social coccoon to really know that other men are actively doing it while going about their business or socializing.