Why not?

[Beigeboots]

Ok, so firstly I have noticed that there are quite a number of women wearing some serious stilletto heels around Edinburgh the last few weeks, more so than I've noticed before. Some of the heels I would expect to find on fetish clothing websites, although not sure where the ladies bought them.

I'm more of a high heeled boots kind of guy but these woman look amazing in these heels and tights.

Secondly, I've noticed more women going about on big motor bikes, 125cc and up. Proper motorbikes, not scooters. Now this is quite a manly, masculine thing to do, traditionally. Same as wearing heels is more feminine and womanly, traditionally. This brings loads of arguments into my head.

1. These woman don't care if others think they are butch lesbians

(no offence intended) or unfeminine, because they're doing the things that makes them happy.

2.When women wanted to wear trousers, they didn't care if others thought badly of them, they wanted to wear trousers and did so.

So what I want to know is this:

Are we pussies for not going out in high heels? Why should we care if people think we're feminine, wearing heels doesn't stop us from being men! It can't! Same as woman on motor bikes don't turn into butch lesbians just because they ride mens' style of motorbikes and not scooters.

This brings me to my next argument:

Why is it acceptable for women to want to do things that men do but not the other way round. Why should men, doing womanly things, be considered as perverts but not the other way round?

Women say high heels make them feel sexy, so men must be perverts for wearing them. Women also say that straddeling a motorbike hits them on the g-spot/clitoris, does this make them perverts, who cares, most men like horny women.

It's not just men who don't like men doing womanly things, many women find this unattractive in a guy too, makes them think he's 'soft' or 'gay'(no offence intended).

Being a guy I can understand it from a guys point of view, you hear high heels, you think there must be a hot woman coming past, you take a look and there's a guy in heels. Oh, the disappointment!!

There's more to this, I know, but it's to much to type all the reasons for men not liking men in heels, but this can change!

We have men wearing alicebands, using beauty/grooming products, waxing body hair, prehaps it's just a matter of time before men in heels becomes more acceptable.

We need David Beckham to wear heels, then it will become perfectly normal.

But from the woman, I don't understand it. Why do women want to do the things men do but don't like us doing what they do?

Anybody got any ideas on this?

[Saturn]

Really, that's an excellent question. Unfortunately, I don't know why it's okay for women to do everything a man can, but not the other way around. Take for instance, this message board community. We have a board for guys, a board for gals, and a board for "everybody." Now, correct me if I'm wrong here, PLEASE - but isn't it okay for the women to post in the men's forum, but the men are not allowed to post in the women's forum? I realize that there seems to be a lot more men on here than women, so I suppose they just don't want to clog the girl's board with a bunch of men's post. However, if there was an influx of female visitors, and a large amount of females began posting on the men's board, I think we would welcome it, yes? Like I said, I could be wrong, but that seems to be the situation. I'll still complacently follow all the rules, but it's "one of those things."

[jmc]

. . .

Take for instance, this message board community. We have a board for guys, a board for gals, and a board for "everybody."

Now, correct me if I'm wrong here, PLEASE - but isn't it okay for the women to post in the men's forum, but the men are not allowed to post in the women's forum? I realize that there seems to be a lot more men on here than women, so I suppose they just don't want to clog the girl's board with a bunch of men's post. However, if there was an influx of female visitors, and a large amount of females began posting on the men's board, I think we would welcome it, yes?

Like I said, I could be wrong, but that seems to be the situation. I'll still complacently follow all the rules, but it's "one of those things."

As a member of the website staff I feel like we have explained this until we are all "blue in the face". But here's another go-round.

You are correct when you state that there are a lot more men around here than women. We are picking up a few female members lately but the number of ladies here has always been far less than the number of guys and it is probably not reasonable to expect that to change. For one thing, heels are not as alluring to women as they are to men -- for guys, there's the mystique of the "forbidden fruit" attached to heels while for women they're just shoes. So it seems that women are not as disposed to talk at great length about high heels.

At one time, way back in the golden old days of HHplace, anybody could post anywhere. We started getting a lot of complaints from the women that the men were overrunning their forum -- one of the women would start a thread and she would get 2 female responses and 500 male responses. About half of our female membership became so upset over this situation that they stopped participating and most of those who left have never returned. That's when the "Guys do not post in the girls' forum" rule came into effect.

I was a "lurker" back in those days so I saw the rancor and the mass exodus. I don't want to have it happen again.

Can we not extend this simple courtesy to our female members? Are they not worth it? Most of us red-blooded guys *like* to have some special women around, don't we? The entire staff is tired of the complaints over this rule but it's not going to change -- the alternative is a lot worse. Yes, we're all about breaking some rules here -- arbitrary rules about fashion, looks and what is acceptable for men. But there are some rules you cannot break without serious repercussions.

Now let us get back to the topic at hand and build up our courage to walk tall and proud in our heels!

[Elegant]

Men are kept from posting in girls' forums just because we've got a very little number of women, and in order to prevent losing them, admins / moderators decided to keep their board strictly female. DON'T look at it in a "lack of equal rights" way. If more women come, and the numbers of male and female members become simmilar / equal- the restriction will prove useless and probably be lifted. [EDIT] I see that JMC stated it...

[crotchboots-m]

why not,indeed. consider the practical side of it all...wearing heels is...i hate to say it...uncomfortable...and not the least bit practical. i think this is the biggest obstacle with guys,really. i mean,if you could score easier with the gals wearing them...they would be lined up out the door for them. but this,alas,is not the case.

[Saturn]

I realize that there seems to be a lot more men on here than women, so I suppose they just don't want to clog the girl's board with a bunch of men's post.

So I guessed it right. There were too many men posting on the women's forum (at a previous time).

I wasn't there, so please, if you feel as though you are "blue in the face," I'm sorry - but to my defense, I correctly assumed what the problem was, so give me a LITTLE credit here.

As far as drawing the comparison - well, maybe it was an unfair one. But it seemed similar enough at the time.

[Jamie001]

In my opinion this thread really sucks. It is an example of a thread that is WAY OFF TOPIC and in no way does it address or respond to the Original Poster's initial discussion topic. Can we please get this thread back on topic or close it? Thanks, Jamie

[Saturn]

Hey Jamie - instead of complaining, why don't you add to the discussion? In fact, I think I'll do just that myself.

Are we pussies for not going out in high heels? Why should we care if people think we're feminine, wearing heels doesn't stop us from being men! It can't!

This is exactly right - it CAN'T change the fact that we're men. That's probably the most important thing for most people to consider. Unless you're dressed as a woman (and there's no problem with that, it's just not for me) then wearing heels can't designate you as any LESS of a man. Of course, we're back to that stigma that if a man wears heels he must be effeminate - which is simply not true in MANY of the cases here.

Why is it acceptable for women to want to do things that men do but not the other way round. Why should men, doing womanly things, be considered as perverts but not the other way round?

This is something that's been bothering me for some time. I suppose you could track it to the fact that sex is usually marketed towards men, rather than women. They try to sell women "intimacy" whereas a man apparently wants sex, and just that. Look at all the Tag/Axe body spray commercials - here's a guy who's attracting random women for suggested sexual relations.

I mean, I'm not an expert, and I didn't look it up. But I'm fairly certain there are many more female escort services/prostitutes available than there are male services of the same kind. So obviously, because so many of these services exist, all men must be perverts.

What this really does is attach a stigma to men, along with all the "perverts" in the press. Some guy who killed women based on high heeled footwear, the guy who randomly knocked a girl down and stole her shoe - these are the stories that get circulated, and well known. Innocent high heeled freestyling is very much NOT in the media. Yes, it is in the media, but you really have to look for it. We make a big deal out of it, but it seems that others are not paying much attention to ANY advances this kind of fashion movement has made.

Maybe the reason that women are wanting to do more "manly" things is that their so-called "liberation" really isn't that old. Most everyone is only a few generations away from the male mentality of "women should be seen and not heard" or a "woman's place is in the home." Women obviously have come a long way, ESPECIALLY within the last 100 years. My guess is because there was this kind of repression (which still exists in many parts of the world) they are branching out and broadening their horizons.

Men, throughout history, had a large advantage over women - being able to vote/own land, for instance. Heck, look at China! They actually look DOWN upon a woman being born, they want a son that will carry on the family's name (among other reasons).

So why can't a man choose to wear heels or do anything of the opposite sex without being discriminated? Well, maybe it's as simple as this - we've had the upper hand for a long time (so to speak) so there was absolutely no reason for us to RELINQUISH our masculinity for any reason - it was a symbol of power, really. Therefore, no reason to change. **(Of course, I'm speaking in relative, general terms here. I'm not trying to say that woman are any less than men - I believe in equality of the sexes. But in the past (and still today!) the equality just wasn't there.)**

Because women are becoming closer and closer to that societal equal to men (which unfortunately can not be 100% resolved, but it seems to get better all the time) men are finally accepting that other types of fashion are acceptable because the difference between sexes is becoming more blurred - as it should be, in my opinion.

Allow me to reiterate - I believe in equality of the sexes, I only presented the archaic views of others for sake of argument.

I'm not sure if this made much sense to anyone, but hey - I gave it a shot.

[raymond.nl]

Are we pussies for not going out in high heels? ...

Why is it acceptable for women to want to do things that men do but not the other way round. ...

It's not just men who don't like men doing womanly things, many women find this unattractive in a guy too, makes them think he's 'soft' or 'gay'(no offence intended). ...

Why do women want to do the things men do but don't like us doing what they do?

Yes, (some) men are pussies for not going out in heels;

The acceptance of women doing men's stuff and vice versa is disputable. Some men (in the middle east) don't want to see women driving cars; some women (in the west) love to go shopping with their man; most women love to cuddle with their man (even though that might not be a manly thing).

Perhaps peer pressure is more of a guy-thing (from the days when we used to hunt in packs).

I've had mostly positive feedback on wearing heels, even more so from women than from men. It is acceptable for men to wear heels, it's just that you have to have the guts to stand out.

[loswabs]

Yes, (some) men are pussies for not going out in heels

Raymond, which men are pussies for not going out in heels and which are not pussies for not going out in heels?

In answer to one of the original questions by Beigeboots, I feel it's mainly down to the confidence of each individual and personal circumstance. I sometimes go out in heels 'cos I feel good about it, other times I don't have the courage and pass. It's a shame I lack the courage but I'm not perfect. In fact, I am an incredibily shy individual. In an ideal world I'd wear heels out every day I wanted, to work, to social gatherings, to family events, food shopping, wherever. But I don't live in an ideal world so have to accept there are limits I will not push. So I only wear heels and my fetish outfits in locations I am unlikely to meet people in my "normal" life. And if I did meet someone I knew, chances are they'd be equally "compromised"!

Were not all super-confident men, but neither is anyone a pussy.

[liveinheels]

Sure let the girls post here with the guys, we don't want to be closed minded like the rest of society. I agree we shouldn't let what others think be the deciding factor in our choice fo footwear but we do. Just put them on and go with it, the girls always do what makes them happy and if anyone says something or laughs they just go with it.

[Beigeboots]

Mmm, ok, when I first made this post, IT HAD NOTHING to do with women posting on the mens' pages. I won't mind if more women posted on the mens' forum and offered some advice or fashion tips, but thats not up to me. The post, when I think about it now, could have been sumed up like this: If it's ok for women to wear mens clothes and do activities that we men do, then why shouldn't it be the same the other way round. Are we (men AND women) saying then that there's something to be embarresed or ashamed about to be a women or to be a man and like the things that women like. Hope this clears up any confusion about this post, and thanks for the replies, some really good responses. I also think, in the end, it boils down to sex. PS. if any women want to respond pls feel free to do so, if thats ok with everybody.

[Amanda]

Men mostly do not want to be seen as soft or feminine. Men are supposed to appear to be tough, they protect, hunt, defend their patch and their families etc. A man who wishes to appear delicate, elegant, dainty or effeminate is not generally attractive to a woman for the reasons above. Being female and appearing tough can be an attribute. Sexy even. A woman who can hunt, protect , defend and bear children is surely a bonus?. Lol, personally, being tough and attitudinous in nature, I prefer my outlook to be feminine. I don't need to look dangerous.

[Beigeboots]

Men mostly do not want to be seen as soft or feminine.

Men are supposed to appear to be tough, they protect, hunt, defend their patch and their families etc.

A man who wishes to appear delicate, elegant, dainty or effeminate is not generally attractive to a woman for the reasons above.

Being female and appearing tough can be an attribute. Sexy even.

A woman who can hunt, protect , defend and bear children is surely a bonus?.

Lol, personally, being to tough and attitudinous I prefer my outlook to be feminine. I don't need to look dangerous.

This is more of what I was looking for! Thanks Amanda Snake, it's a bit dissappointing to hear this though because I love wearing boots and gloves but it's true, high heels are not very practicle for men should we need to defend and protect our girlfriends/wives/kids/homes and even ourselves from muggers, rapists ext.

So where does this leave men who like to wear high heels?

I'm kind of happy to just keep wearing heels at home, going to fetish clubs where I can socialize in an accepting enviroment for a few hours, then get changed into regular clothes - back into male mode and go home! Can't see the problem with being a bit effemminate for a few hours once a month.

[Jamie001]

I believe that the attitude that men need to be tough and not express femininity is dated and has no place in the 21 century. It is a throwback to the caveman days of when men because of their typically larger size had to go out and kill a beast and bring it home as food for the family to eat. We no longer live in that society, and at one time in history we actually relinquished a lot of the "males are supposed to be tough" BS that has been fed to us throughtout history. Our forefathers dresses in what would be considered a feminine manner by wearing makeup, wigs, and high heels. George Washington wore heels to his inagural ball. Only during the onset of the industrial revolution did we again try to convert men to a soldier mindset with wearing of suits that make them all look alike. Men that have a feminine side and believe that they must suppress it are pshchologically doing themselves a disservice. Can you imaging not being able to express who you are because you are confined in a box that society has placed you in? On the other hand, women are encouraged to explore all aspects of their personality from the very feminine to the masculine aggressive side. Therefore, a women can really be a whole person. I really wonder if we would have so many wars, murders, and conflicts if men were taught by society not to be so aggressive and were encouraged to pursue feminine activities... I believe we as a society are doing ourselved a great disservice by perpetuating the concept that the Neandrathal Male is still desirable in the 21 century. It has been proven through research that men with a strong feminine side are less prone to violence and that they usually treat women better and make better companions and mates for them. There are a lot of women in the world that are attracted to a "feminized male". This is the type of woman that you should desire because it indicates that her thought process is highly evolved and that she is open-minded and is a free thinker.

This is more of what I was looking for! Thanks Amanda Snake, it's a bit dissappointing to hear this though because I love wearing boots and gloves but it's true, high heels are not very practicle for men should we need to defend and protect our girlfriends/wives/kids/homes and even ourselves from muggers, rapists ext.

So where does this leave men who like to wear high heels?

I'm kind of happy to just keep wearing heels at home, going to fetish clubs where I can socialize in an accepting enviroment for a few hours, then get changed into regular clothes - back into male mode and go home! Can't see the problem with being a bit effemminate for a few hours once a month.

[jmc]

. . .

So where does this leave men who like to wear high heels?

. . .

In the shadows, unfortunately. At home, at fetish clubs, and "sneaking in a quick stroll in the middle of the night".

That is, until we pluck up the courage to venture out in broad daylight without a care for what the rest of the world thinks. It's all about individuality and self-expression, and sometimes being unique means you have to take the slings and arrows. That can take a special kind of courage and an "emotional armor".

[johnieheel]

high heels are not very practicle for men should we need to defend and protect our girlfriends/wives/kids/homes and even ourselves from muggers, rapists ext.

So where does this leave men who like to wear high heels?

Bull, I can shoot just as straight in heels as I can wearing ugly mens shoes, hunting boots, etc. I can also look just as masculine in heels as I can any other ugly mans shoe.

I can also screw up a perfectly good reply.

[mod] . . . and I can fix it [/mod]

[Histiletto]

I believe that the attitude that men need to be tough and not express femininity is dated and has no place in the 21 century. It is a throwback to the caveman days of when men because of their typically larger size had to go out and kill a beast and bring it home as food for the family to eat. We no longer live in that society, and at one time in history we actually relinquished a lot of the "males are supposed to be tough" BS that has been fed to us throughtout history. Our forefathers dresses in what would be considered a feminine manner by wearing makeup, wigs, and high heels. George Washington wore heels to his inagural ball. Only during the onset of the industrial revolution did we again try to convert men to a soldier mindset with wearing of suits that make them all look alike. Men that have a feminine side and believe that they must suppress it are pshchologically doing themselves a disservice. Can you imaging not being able to express who you are because you are confined in a box that society has placed you in? On the other hand, women are encouraged to explore all aspects of their personality from the very feminine to the masculine aggressive side. Therefore, a women can really be a whole person. I really wonder if we would have so many wars, murders, and conflicts if men were taught by society not to be so aggressive and were encouraged to pursue feminine activities... I believe we as a society are doing ourselved a great disservice by perpetuating the concept that the Neandrathal Male is still desirable in the 21 century. It has been proven through research that men with a strong feminine side are less prone to violence and that they usually treat women better and make better companions and mates for them. There are a lot of women in the world that are attracted to a "feminized male". This is the type of woman that you should desire because it indicates that her thought process is highly evolved and that she is open-minded and is a free thinker.

Jamie,

I think you hit the nail squarely on the head when you came to the conclusion that a woman can really be a whole person in our social atmosphere. From their socially induced position of superiority, men rarely see the need to venture out of their roles. Therefore, most men have lost sight of what it is to be a whole person.

[Amanda]

Very eloquently put Jamie. it is indeed a very antiquated attitude driven entirely by our genetic need to reproduce.

Our need to reproduce is also antiquated and will ultimately result in our extinction.

A

I believe that the attitude that men need to be tough and not express femininity is dated and has no place in the 21 century. It is a throwback to the caveman days of when men because of their typically larger size had to go out and kill a beast and bring it home as food for the family to eat. We no longer live in that society, and at one time in history we actually relinquished a lot of the "males are supposed to be tough" BS that has been fed to us throughtout history. Our forefathers dresses in what would be considered a feminine manner by wearing makeup, wigs, and high heels. George Washington wore heels to his inagural ball. Only during the onset of the industrial revolution did we again try to convert men to a soldier mindset with wearing of suits that make them all look alike. Men that have a feminine side and believe that they must suppress it are pshchologically doing themselves a disservice. Can you imaging not being able to express who you are because you are confined in a box that society has placed you in? On the other hand, women are encouraged to explore all aspects of their personality from the very feminine to the masculine aggressive side. Therefore, a women can really be a whole person. I really wonder if we would have so many wars, murders, and conflicts if men were taught by society not to be so aggressive and were encouraged to pursue feminine activities... I believe we as a society are doing ourselved a great disservice by perpetuating the concept that the Neandrathal Male is still desirable in the 21 century. It has been proven through research that men with a strong feminine side are less prone to violence and that they usually treat women better and make better companions and mates for them. There are a lot of women in the world that are attracted to a "feminized male". This is the type of woman that you should desire because it indicates that her thought process is highly evolved and that she is open-minded and is a free thinker.

[HappyFeat]

Very eloquently put Jamie. it is indeed a very antiquated attitude driven entirely by our genetic need to reproduce.

Our need to reproduce is also antiquated and will ultimately result in our extinction.

A

Well, I think extinction is a bit of hyperbole. However, aren't human beings a species that are typically thought of has having reasoning skills that transcend innate instinct?

[Amanda]

Well, I think extinction is a bit of hyperbole. However, aren't human beings a species that are typically thought of has having reasoning skills that transcend innate instinct?

I wouldn't say it was a hyperbole. Look around you and see what men are doing. Humanity is only typically thought of by itself as having reason.

See how the animals run from us.

[Beigeboots]

Bull, I can shoot just as straight in heels as I can wearing ugly mens shoes, hunting boots, etc. I can also look just as masculine in heels as I can any other ugly mans shoe.

I can also screw up a perfectly good reply.

[mod] . . . and I can fix it [/mod]

LOL, I don't live in a country that allows me to carry/own a gun for protection, I would have to rely on the old 'fist to the face' approach should I need to protect anyone. You can't convince me that I would be able to scrap with another bloke or more, as effectively in high heels as I could in a pair of trainers or barefoot. I agree with you though, can't see how high heels would affect your shooting skills especially if you practice in them...

[johnieheel]

I understand what your saying Beigeboots. If I had to scrap in heels, I'd probably get my butt kicked do to loss of balance, but on the other foot, you could take your heels off and use them as weapons.

[vector]

But one kick could truly be deadly!!!!

[roniheels]

I understand what your saying Beigeboots. If I had to scrap in heels, I'd probably get my butt kicked do to loss of balance, but on the other foot, you could take your heels off and use them as weapons.

When I wear stiletto high heels, I have even practiced using them as weapons in case the confrontation came to that. Thank heavens it never has.

I think we as a site has had similar discusions on this topic. A female friend of mine made a comment (she owns an erotic boutique) that in her opinion women are leaing toward the casual and men are exploring the dressier or prettier sides even if it is done privately. I don't know if I necessarily agree with this whole heartedly, but llike in our workplace, you seldom see women in dresses and heels, more like jeans and sneakers. And men don't wear suits that often but still wear the slacks and dress shirts.

My hope is both men and women find that "middle ground" where whatever the preferred fashion is by either sex, it will be accepted and expressed.

[Beigeboots]

When I wear stiletto high heels, I have even practiced using them as weapons in case the confrontation came to that. Thank heavens it never has.

My high heels all consist of boots, it'll be a bit difficult to unzip them and then use them as a weapon, maybe just stomp on the troublemaker's foot, sure that would cause enough pain for me to make a gettaway

I think we as a site has had similar discusions on this topic. A female friend of mine made a comment (she owns an erotic boutique) that in her opinion women are leaing toward the casual and men are exploring the dressier or prettier sides even if it is done privately. I don't know if I necessarily agree with this whole heartedly, but llike in our workplace, you seldom see women in dresses and heels, more like jeans and sneakers. And men don't wear suits that often but still wear the slacks and dress shirts. - this sounds quite interesting, do you know the title of this thread you mentioned, I'd like to read it.

My hope is both men and women find that "middle ground" where whatever the preferred fashion is by either sex, it will be accepted and expressed. - i agree with you, that sums up what the OP was about, double standards. Why do men have to be so limited while women are encouraged to experiment in so many things. Why do women and other men jump to the conclusion that we must be gay (no offence) or less manly for wearing heels.

Actually, the whole thing is quite ridiculous because if a 'favourite male celebrity' wore high heels, most of the women would (99% sure on this!) applaud him for being so daring, fashion conscious and in touch with his feminine side. While us normal/average guys are considered unmanly.

[hhboots]

I really like the replies from Jamie and Saturn on this thread, very well thought out guys.

I agree, it may not seem fair to us guys that are trying to blur the lines of fashion and be accepted for wanting to wear items of clothing that are less than masculine, but you are right that men have had a huge advantage over women in so many areas for countless centuries. Only in the last 100 years have women had the coming of equality, and of course it is not all there yet, there is still some balancing to go on there, but they do have the right to enjoy advantages in certain things that we may not think is fair.

I have been on the other side of this discussion before saying, it really sucks that women get to enjoy whatever they want in fashion, and that their fashion selections are virtually limitless, while we men get the selection of looking like boring clones of each other. I really like that things are very gradually coming to a balance for us men in fashion, there is a long way to go there, but we have to fight the right to blur the fashion lines one step at a time and do it tastefully and gradually, or in my opinion it takes us a step backward (as in those out there that just see a pervert rather than what might be really a fashion conscious guy).

Anyway, wanted to say I liked the points made by both of you in those posts, very nicely done.