genebujold Posted January 16, 2004 Posted January 16, 2004 Every once in a while I have what others call a stroke of brilliance. Personally, I like to call them bumps of wisdom, as I rarely recognize their worth until after I've tripped over it. My recent post on the Payless Problems thread is one such bump. Everything I've ever learned through many years of schooling (including an MBA), experience (starting, managing a very successful long-term business), and investing (also quite successful in predicting what business models work and which don't, thereby allowing me to divest myself of "brilliant-looking" but eventually worthless stocks)... All this leads me to believe one thing: The model I described in the other post is, given current (and predicted future) market conditions and current (and predicted future) fashion trends, the only way mainstream heel manufacturers will ever increase their offerings beyond size 10, sometimes 11, and rarely 12. What we're looking for is no less than 25% of the manufacturers to offer their wares well into the range that fully 90% of all men would wear, size-wise. Unfortunately, whether this will ever happen or not is totally dependant upon profit. Untill Hollywood somehow makes high-heel wear by men a true fashion trend the masses are willing to accept and emulate, the following model will be the only way to ensure two things - First, that those of us counter-trend heel-wearers will ever have a decent selection; Second, there will be enough sizes available for those who're on the verge of wearing heels that they won't get discouraged by the lack of selection of quality heels suitable for men to wear, but instead will be encouraged by the selection. In this vein, I ask the moderators, Jeff and Francis, to allow the following repeat post as the first of this new thread, with the hope that somewhere out there is an individual possessing the traits outlined below who would arise to the occasion and fill the niche described below, thereby bringing high heel fashion wear into the norm for all men! Without further ado... A place where I still find larger sizes (at least up to 11) is Nine West. Sometimes their 11 even feels like a 12. I think many regular shoe stores never carried many large sizes. From talking to the sales people, it seems like many get one 10 and 11 per shipment. So once that pair is sold, you are out of luck. I used to go to a Baker stores where the highest I could get was usually a 10. Then I once met another of the sles girls there and she told me she always bought the size 11 (her size !) as soon as they came in. Mystery solved of why there were no 11's available ! Ahhh... I believe you're right - so long as manufacturers continue shipping larger sizes of real higher-heeled shoes to everyone, they'll never profit. The thing of it is, though, there is a market! But it's a niche market. And you don't get rich trying to mix niche market apparel among those designed for the masses. Consider how many outlets you find for shoes like Timberland. Pretty much every shoe store in the world seems to carry a pair. They're "mass market" shoes. Now compare that with Bacco Buchi, Donald J. Pliner, DKNY, or Bruno Magli. You're not going to find those at Walmart! The fact of the matter is, there is no good way to make a profit on larger sizes, as the current market outlets are spread too thin for manufacturers to make any money off onsies and twosies of larger sizes to the thousands upon thousands of their retailers. Enter the niche market! All it requires is a wholesaler/retailer who will direct market larger size heels (much like Zappos) to those who want them. In so doing, manufacturers don't have to worry about sending large size heels to retailers only to have most of them returned due to non-sales. Instead, they can send to one place, preferrably under an appropriate market-demand inventory model which allows certain styles and sizes to be more stocked than others, but with enough flexibility to rapidly manufacture and stock hot items. Done the right way, using both sales, market analysis and surveys, that wholesaler/retailer could make an incredible fortune selling the right sized shoes to the right people, while significantly increasing the profits of larger-sized manufacturers to the point where they would be happy to make mainstream shoes, sandals and boots in significantly larger sizes. And when the availability problem is solved, you'll see a lot more men wearing higher heels, which will then solve the "critical mass market" problem, thereby ushering us into a new era of styling! All it takes is an entrepreneur with enough cash, market savvy, and management skills to turn tech-savvy individuals into an online website similar to Zappos. But what to call it? What would be a good name for this business??? I used to go to a Baker stores where the highest I could get was usually a 10. Then I once met another of the sles girls there and she told me she always bought the size 11 (her size !) as soon as they came in. Mystery solved of why there were no 11's available ! This also underscores why it's necessary to increase the number of styles and sizes available to meet market demand. Once that's done, the market will take off. So long as it continues to be piecemeal, it's like a 747 trying to get off the ground using a 737's engines. It'll move, but it'll never fly.
new_look Posted January 16, 2004 Posted January 16, 2004 actually the 737's engines woulsd be capable of lifting a 747, but it would require a runway 175% the standard length to create the same speed required for lift. nice topic above gene, very interesting. i am sure that many men would be too afraid of going into the ladies section even if large sizes were available (not including us trend opposing people as you outlined above)
Arctic Posted January 16, 2004 Posted January 16, 2004 I agree with your analysis Gene, apart from one thing. You address fashion and trends with traditional (MBA ) business logic, and that only gets you so far. Due to the fact that the benefit vs. cost ratio is entirely relying on the perceived "coolness" of a piece of apparel makes this business area highly volatile. I don't pretend to understand how the fashion world works (I'm in telecomms), but fact is that often styles which are killed off by the critics (the "experts") are an absolute hit, and vice versa. That's why the successful designers are totally eccentric people with some strange kind of vision that cannot be explained by any logic known to man The hollywood hit is probably indeed what would be needed to get it rolling, as for some other reason things depicted on the silver screen often get accepted into the "real" world unquestioned. What's all the fuss about?
Dr. Shoe Posted January 16, 2004 Posted January 16, 2004 Here are the problems: 1. Not everyone likes or wants the same heel height so there would have to be a broad range of styles. 2. Most men (present company excluded) will not wear shoes that are designed for women or resemble womens' styles. 3.There is a lot more behind bringing out a new style than just making it. You have to obtain the lasts, cutting knives, components and grindery. Moreover, some machinery may need to be upgraded or replaced to cope with the different shapes (the heel press springs to mind). 4. As more and more major players seem to be withdrawing from the larger foot market (particularly here in the UK) I doubt they would want to take the gamble. I don't want to put a downer on your ideas because from a purely business point of view they are sound. If you were making clothes for example it would work but given the compexity of shoe making it would be just a too big a gamble to take. Graduate footwear designer able to advise and assist on modification and shoe making projects.
Firefox Posted January 17, 2004 Posted January 17, 2004 It sounds good, but you're way off target. Can I say both? I don't believe enough men are interested in the concept of heels to make a commercially mainstream enterprise. Heels are too impractical or fiddley for men's tastes.Most men don't need the extra height either so for most men, they are always destined to be a niche fashion accessory.
j-turbo2002 Posted January 17, 2004 Posted January 17, 2004 I must admit that Gene’s business model is indeed very good, however…………… I do not want heels to become mainstream at all! Being one of the few men who enjoys wearing high heels in public I feel unique in that I have established a trend and a culture that is suited just for me and me alone. However, I think that if the vast majority of men all started wearing high heels I would loose this feeling of uniqueness. In other words, the special feeling would just disappear – I would just become another “fake wannabe” who is just “jumping on the bandwagon” of the latest fashion trends. Most of you are right about one issue. If heels for men were mainstream, there would be many more choices of trendy high heels in larger sizes.
Bubba136 Posted January 17, 2004 Posted January 17, 2004 This subject has been extensively covered before. And, each time we arrive at the same conclusion. Like a cab driver in Dublin once told me...sorry, you can't get there from here. And, that is where we're at with men in heels. Being mentally comfortable in your own mind is the key to wearing heels in public.
genebujold Posted January 17, 2004 Author Posted January 17, 2004 Well! I am indeed suprised at the response! At the very least I would have thought the crowd would be more excited, especially what it would mean towards both public acceptance and availability of heels. But ok - and thank you for your honest critiques! Such forthrightness is rare in most circles these days, and is refreshing to see here. I would, however, like to comment on some comments, in chronological order: Daz: actually the 737's engines woulsd be capable of lifting a 747, but it would require a runway 175% the standard length to create the same speed required for lift. Don't think so! Even the 737-700 series total thrust is only slightly more than 24,000 for both engines for a MGTW of 170,000 pounds. That's a thrust-weight fraction of .14. Even the lighter versions of a 747 (such as Air Force 1) have a MGTW of 833,000 pounds. This would result in a thrust-weight fraction of .029. This simply isn't even enough to compensate for the parasitic drag at Vlof, much less the induced drag at Vzrc (or even at max D/L). As for men going into the ladies sections... I agree! However, the model I mentioned involved shopping totally online, and tailoring the selection to a range of heels, from almost totally masculine (except for the heel) to somewhat into the feminine styles, thereby eliminating the fear of cross-shopping and minimizing the fear of cross-dressing in public. Bert: Actually, I've more experience than education. You pinned the tail on the donkey with the MBA, but that was back in... well, way back! I've been in the business since 1985, and self-employed since 1991. I understand where you're coming from - the designers wield a lot of power with respect to what's accepted, and Hollywood probably more so. Nevertheless, there is a demand for quality high heeled shoes in men's sizes, but extremely limited supply. By "quality" I mean made of materials and in styles that men would find appealing, not the plastic 7" heel 2" platform crap that's currently available in larger sizes. The supply is very limited above size 10, and all but totally non-existant in sizes above 12. At least Roaman's, Nordstroms, and Zappos are keeping the size 11, 12, and somewhat the 13 crowd barely appeased. My point, however, is if the usual mix of what you'd find in women's 8-1/2, for example, were available through size 14, you'd find a lot of those styles being adopted by men! I'm not talking the spaghetti-strap sandals or pumps, but rather, the enclosed leather shoes with low to medium chunk heels, which are simply not offered in larger sizes. Dr. Shoe: Yes - a broad range of styles would be important, including styles that are either gender-neutral or masculine (Harley-Davidson boots come to mind). As for point 3, with todays' computer-aided manufacturing, heels are made much differently than they used to be. Lasts? Hah! Lasts are for cobblers! The vast majority of heels today are made using highly fluid (programmable) pseudo-lasts which could easily make a size 17 shoe as they could a size 5. Finally, the withdrawing players. Personally, I believe this is a cost issue - it just costs the mfgs too much to make larger sizes. But the REASON behind this is the fundamental element in my plan! It costs them more because the current distribution model is highly inefficient for slow movers! By grouping 20,000 retail outlets into one website, you not only eliminate the problem, you actually create a highly efficient distribution model against which many manufacturers would gladly sell. Firefox: I agree most men wouldn't wear heels. Even if just 1 out of a 1,000 do, however, that's still a market of 6 Million men. Given 10% Internet Access, 1 pair of heels a year, that's 600,000 shoes. And that's a valid market! Consider the fact that many ladies styles don't sell more than 500 pair... j-turbo2002: Point accepted! And you're right - some men like wearing heels in part because it is different, and like many fashion fringes, would feel impinged upon if it became maintstream. Unfortunately, so long as a fashion trend remains on the fringe, your type is safe. But as often as not, it does become mainstream, which means that you'd either have to adjust, wait until it's once again anti-fashion, or just be miserable! As a skirt-wearer here in Vegas, I rarely go out in public in a skirt. When I do, I'm usually very low-keyed about it (very non-descript design, and I'm dressed in very gender-neutral clothes in conjunction - often very slightly made up). In short, I don't like being a spectacle. I'm fairly conservative! But I like wearing heels (major reduction in ankle pain) and I like wearing skirts (very comfortable). So I'm probably one of the few here who would feel much more comfortable if things did become mainstream, as I could enjoy being myself without the consternation of dressing radically. Bubba136: "...extensively covered before..." Huh? Parts of it, yes - but none of the major issues with respect to both why the availability isn't currently there and how this problem could be both solved and turned into a major business advantage by a savvy company with the right focus, well - that's not been talked about before, either on this board, or any other!
genebujold Posted January 17, 2004 Author Posted January 17, 2004 By the way, did one of you moderators close the voting? If so, please don't do that!!! Nine responses doesn't begin to scratch the surface as to a "statistically significant" sample size!!! More like 54, by my calculations. So - if it's not closed, thank you. If it is, please re-open the voting so that a statistically significant number of responses can be gathered!
Firefox Posted January 17, 2004 Posted January 17, 2004 We could be more excited I suppose, but I prefer being realistic rather than enthusiastic where the two find themsleves opposed. I realise that's somewhat selfish because I've broken throught the barriers to wear them under present conditions whereas some people require more tangible approval from society before taking the plunge. Nevertheless, if you want to take steps to promote it there's no harm in that. The best way I think is just to wear them yourself with no inihibitions.
PJ Posted January 17, 2004 Posted January 17, 2004 By the way, did one of you moderators close the voting? If so, please don't do that!!! Nine responses doesn't begin to scratch the surface as to a "statistically significant" sample size!!! More like 54, by my calculations. So - if it's not closed, thank you. If it is, please re-open the voting so that a statistically significant number of responses can be gathered! I just voted so I guess the polls are still open. click .... click .... click .... The sensual sound of stiletto heels on a hard surface.
new_look Posted January 17, 2004 Posted January 17, 2004 i hate to divert from the subject, but a 747 can take off using just 2 engines at 80% thrust, or fly/land on the power of one with yaw adjustment, therefore the power of 2- 100% static thrust 737 engines could produce the required speed level on like i said the longer runway. i wont go into exact figures- but the 747 when first produced, used engines that were only 75% as efficient as the ones used on modern 747's, and the land/takeoff performances i mentioned above was correct to the engines with the lower thrust levels as published in an aviation magazine from a boeing engineer. i assure you i have been a big fan/follower of aviation for sometime, and you will find me to be correct. sorry to intrude the subject once more daz
PJ Posted January 18, 2004 Posted January 18, 2004 .....This also underscores why it's necessary to increase the number of styles and sizes available to meet market demand. Once that's done, the market will take off. So long as it continues to be piecemeal, it's like a 747 trying to get off the ground using a 737's engines. It'll move, but it'll never fly. Maybe he was comparing the older turbojet 737 engines with the newer turbofan 747 engines. click .... click .... click .... The sensual sound of stiletto heels on a hard surface.
new_look Posted January 18, 2004 Posted January 18, 2004 i think he would be. it was just one of those things you see and think, thats not right. never mind. who cares... on with heels
Bubba136 Posted January 18, 2004 Posted January 18, 2004 I think we've all got the message. Now this thread is begining to be a gigantic YAWN! I guess we own our thanks to gene for taking the time to make sure we understood his position. Thanks from me, gene. Being mentally comfortable in your own mind is the key to wearing heels in public.
genebujold Posted January 20, 2004 Author Posted January 20, 2004 i hate to divert from the subject, but a 747 can take off using just 2 engines at 80% thrust, or fly/land on the power of one with yaw adjustment, therefore the power of 2- 100% static thrust 737 engines could produce the required speed level on like i said the longer runway. i wont go into exact figures- but the 747 when first produced, used engines that were only 75% as efficient as the ones used on modern 747's, and the land/takeoff performances i mentioned above was correct to the engines with the lower thrust levels as published in an aviation magazine from a boeing engineer. i assure you i have been a big fan/follower of aviation for sometime, and you will find me to be correct. sorry to intrude the subject once more daz Quite all right! But let's take a closer look at those figures (and apologies for the off-topic divert in advance!) 2 Engines at 80% thrust for a 747 equate to (2*57,600*80%)=92,160 lbs of thrust. And those are the older engines, such as those on Air Force One. 2 Engines at 100% thrust for the latest, most powerful-engined version of the 737 equate to (2*24,000*1.0)=48,000 lbs of thrust. If you go with a 747 with more powerful engines, or an older 737 with less powerful engines, the difference is even more pronounced. Looks like you're about 44,160 pounds of thrust shy of your goal, Daz! And back to weight fractions... The most efficient airplanes in the air are gliders. They're designed with one goal in mind - the most distance for the least loss in altitude. A glider weighing 1,500 pounds requires a 35-pound tug on the tow rope to keep it flying at constant altitude at max L/D velocity. That's a thrust to weight fraction of .023, which is about the lowest around. (35/1500) Earlier I mentioned that what you proposed would require a thrust to weight fraction of .029. This makes what you propose possible - but only if the aircraft is a glider. And a 747 is NOT a glider! It's a high-speed, long-range transport with a thrust to weight fraction of .14. Big difference, and no - it won't take off by the time you reach the end of a two-mile runway. Do I need to whip out the v^2=2*a*d equations and prove it?
Slim Posted January 20, 2004 Posted January 20, 2004 I'm with J-Turbo--I don't want it to become mainstream. I'm also with Gene in that I really don't like men (even me) wearing heels, but I do anyway.
Tech Posted January 20, 2004 Posted January 20, 2004 Hi all If its proper polls your looking for which will not be closed then I conduct all year round market research for just this purpose... You can vote and know that the polls will not close. http://www.heels4men.org/market-research/index.htm If there are any more questions you feel are missing then please do get in touch via email from the web site... Thanks Richard ps... I really do want it to become mainstream... Why? well just look at the choice available at the moment for women, then compare it with the mens... need I say more? Heels for Men // Legwear Fashion // HHPlace Guidelines If something doesn't look right, please report the content ASAP!
TXT-1 Posted January 21, 2004 Posted January 21, 2004 I for one would like men in heels to go mainstream! women can wear flats, my "avatars", classic "womens" pumps, fetish heels (7"-7.5" (with or without plats, ballet boots, and what can men wear, joggers/runners flats, sandals (basically you can have anything as long as they are flats ) I'm not holding my breath though! later, TXT-1
Firefox Posted January 21, 2004 Posted January 21, 2004 I'd encourage people to vote in Richie's polls. However, the poll here is not closed, and will not be closed, the same as any other poll on this site. Also, if you want to discuss aircraft engines, can you start a thread in general and transfer your posts there please
genebujold Posted January 21, 2004 Author Posted January 21, 2004 I'd encourage people to vote in Richie's polls. However, the poll here is not closed, and will not be closed, the same as any other poll on this site. Thank you for the response - glad to know it's not closed. Also, if you want to discuss aircacraft engines, can you start a thread in general and transfer your posts there please Roger! Out.
Bootking Posted November 21, 2008 Posted November 21, 2008 Well, let me throw my two cents in here too. I generally agree with the main thread here that you want a coordinated look, unless you really want to be noticed, in either a negative or positive way. Jeff certainly took the lead here but I also do the same type of thing. I was in Burlington Coat Factory today browsing the shoes/boots and was wearing a grey plaid button down shirt, grey Izod sweater and grey pinstripe flair pants with Nine West Bhavino black leather ankle boots, 4" stiletto heel. I guess triple grey is as coordinated as you can get - LOL!! The last pic I lifted the pants to show the boot better. The last It's all about the heel!
roniheels Posted November 22, 2008 Posted November 22, 2008 Well, let me throw my two cents in here too. I generally agree with the main thread here that you want a coordinated look, unless you really want to be noticed, in either a negative or positive way. Jeff certainly took the lead here but I also do the same type of thing. I was in Burlington Coat Factory today browsing the shoes/boots and was wearing a grey plaid button down shirt, grey Izod sweater and grey pinstripe flair pants with Nine West Bhavino black leather ankle boots, 4" stiletto heel. I guess triple grey is as coordinated as you can get - LOL!! The last pic I lifted the pants to show the boot better. The last Like Bootking, I coordinate my high heels with my male wardrobe and I would hope this trend would catch on.
JeffB Posted November 23, 2008 Posted November 23, 2008 Well, let me throw my two cents in here too. I generally agree with the main thread here that you want a coordinated look, unless you really want to be noticed, in either a negative or positive way. Jeff certainly took the lead here but I also do the same type of thing. I was in Burlington Coat Factory today browsing the shoes/boots and was wearing a grey plaid button down shirt, grey Izod sweater and grey pinstripe flair pants with Nine West Bhavino black leather ankle boots, 4" stiletto heel. I guess triple grey is as coordinated as you can get - LOL!! The last pic I lifted the pants to show the boot better. The last Color me impressed! I'm glad that folks here are following my lead when it comes to looking sharp from head to toe when wearing heels, and you certainly do a great job! I don't want to LOOK like a woman, I just want to DRESS like a woman!
Magickman Posted November 23, 2008 Posted November 23, 2008 Ever the wise guy, I believe that the best way for Getting High Heels for Men Off the Ground, is simply to lift my foot. That is another way of saying that by every instance of wearing high heels in public, we incrementally increase public awareness and acceptance of men in heels. Over time, as the general public sees this enough, it ceases to be unusual or strange, and becomes only another fashion style. The rest of you folks here can help this along, by regularly wearing high heels in your daily lives. It doesn't have to be stilettos at the building supply store, although that is OK, but public heeling in any form will advance our cause.
Tech Posted November 23, 2008 Posted November 23, 2008 But dont a lot of guys want to un-associate themselves from the possible stereotyping of CD/TV/Gay ? Heels for Men // Legwear Fashion // HHPlace Guidelines If something doesn't look right, please report the content ASAP!
Stilettoscot Posted November 23, 2008 Posted November 23, 2008 Tech, I believe simply by coordinating the look, such as Kneehighs, Jeff, and many others here do, you make it look like everyday living. I'm sorry, but if I saw RadioDave, JeffB, or Kneehighs out around town, I wouldn't assume they were gay/CD/TS at all. I know I'm biased because I'm NOT biased (this make sense?), but do their looks make you think this? Walking in ultra-highs because it's exciting...and it is!!
Tech Posted November 23, 2008 Posted November 23, 2008 Tech, I believe simply by coordinating the look, such as Kneehighs, Jeff, and many others here do, you make it look like everyday living. I'm sorry, but if I saw RadioDave, JeffB, or Kneehighs out around town, I wouldn't assume they were gay/CD/TS at all. I know I'm biased because I'm NOT biased (this make sense?), but do their looks make you think this? Huh? Thats totally not what I said, nor what I meant. I'm not referring to specific peoples "looks" at all and didnt say that. "I" am not making any assumptions about anybody, I'm referring to the general public's assumptions and stereotyping of labelling guys in heels as Gay/TV/CD or whatever else they care to "assume" at seeing a guy in heels. Now, what I'm simply saying is that if you all want to get "Men in heels" off the ground, isnt part of that to rid the stereotyping that goes on? Heels for Men // Legwear Fashion // HHPlace Guidelines If something doesn't look right, please report the content ASAP!
vector Posted November 24, 2008 Posted November 24, 2008 I have a question for the history buffs here.... How (or why) did ear rings become unisex? It would seem to me that heels would have to follow a similar process (trend). Comments... (Maybe this should be moved to the "For Everybody" section so that the ladies can give their input).
dww Posted November 25, 2008 Posted November 25, 2008 Couple of weeks ago I walked out of a petrol station, the lady behind the counter shouted he's wearing high heels. I just walked to my car. I was walking back to my car after visiting the Angel of the North monument, lady pushing a pram looked and laughed. But I bet next time they see a guy in heels, the response will be oh well. I think it will take a little time but sooner or later heels will be like long hair and earings, nobody will think anything about it. life is not a rehearsal
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