Defacing Deuteronomy 22:5

[Shafted]

Well, barbecue chicken is my favorite. YUM! Hope I won't be damned because of that!

I suspect you are already forgiven Jeff.

[meganiwish]

I'm ashamed to admit that I have a woollen coat with a linen lining (22:11) and that I once ploughed with an ox and an ass together (22:10).

[yozz]

Do all these rules also apply to virtual reality? Y.

[meganiwish]

It would be just asking for trouble to plough with a virtual ox and a virtual ass together. They'd get stuck in a corner.

[Tacchi Alti]

Also one thing that many do not realize is the Bible as most Christians know it was put together by the Catholic church some where around the 12 century. The fathers decided what was proper for the general public to read and put in books and left out books for various reasons. Google "books of the Apocrypha".

I certainly didn't realise that, and what you say goes against the reliable history of the compilation of the Bible. The canonical books were established essentially (with one or two variations) by the fourth century. Jerome omitted the apocryphal books but they were subsequently added by the Roman Catholic church fairly quickly afterwards. It is not until the 16th century that they were publicly rejected by the reformers but retained by the RCs.

I don't want to get embroiled in discussion about this, as it's off-topic, but I thought I ought at least to mention that what you say is not generally accepted as fact.

[meganiwish]

Anyone who wants to know the difference between sex and grammatical gender is welcome to contact me here. I daresay even at my age I could teach them a thing or two. frenchlessons@megan.co.uk

[Guest]

Yes I think Me wearing womans shoes goes against the bible. As far as the old testament, it was explained to me this way. When jesus died for our sins, that wiped out the old laws and new ones were written. So those that pick and choose which of the old laws are gospel, or what we must live by, Will die by ALL the laws. So that means there is NO forgiveness for sins. You either live by The old testament or the new. Now, do I think there are examples in the old testament (OT) that can guide us in life? Very much so. This is where our values come from. The purpose of the OT was to show A need for jesus to come along and die for our sins. With that said, it does say in the new testament men should not wear womans clothes And woman should not wear mens. For the life of me I can't see why that would be an Issue with the styles back then. But, along with this do I think it is a sin to over eat, to smoke, to drink? Yes. It is something That controls US, we do have control over it. IE,addictions. I also think it is wrong to "worship" possessions the way we do. Maybe I have some of this stuff wrong, I don't know. These are just my opinions and thoughts on the matter.

[Shafted]

With that said, it does say in the new testament men should not wear womans clothes

And woman should not wear mens. For the life of me I can't see why that would be an

Issue with the styles back then.

For my own curiosity, please quote where in the bible this is. I'm very interested in this for my own reference. PM me if you chose.

[FreshinHeels]

Could ye not als so that at a certain moment in history any piece of clothing that exists is or has been worn be either female or male? No point in naming the examples I think we all know them. So does that not mean both men and women are guilty according to Deut 22? Cause who says what is women or man cloths. There could be totally different opinions in 100 years when people look back at the clothes of today.

Edited January 24, 2013 by FreshinHeels

[FreshinHeels]

ahh that means woman barefoot and pregnant jk kiddinge offcourse.

[heels59]

The point of guilt is the point at which the differentiation between the biological sexes is ruined, either to self or towards others.

So if I understand you correctly, you see a distinct difference, a crossing of the line if you will, between men heeling, or even wearing skirts or dresses (as men), and full crossdressing, with the intent to "pass"

Do you see this on an individual level, or in society as a whole? ie. Styles become so androgenous that gender is indeterminate, or perhaps other male/female roles become blurred.

[Histiletto]

The natural laws of humanity come into play here. Until it is possible for the man to produce an ovum and support the gestation process or the female to generate the sperm, the sexes can not change their true identity. We have seen and witnessed transgendering by both males and females, but neither have been able to successfully complete the reproductive processes to which they have transgendered. Should these two processes for reproduction become transferable between men and women, then there will be some necessity to determine their identity. To say the transferring of the sexual processes is impossible may have been considered as such in the past, but with the technology of today, such things can not be totally ruled out. Certainly the moral right would do all within their abilities to prohibit such actions or even considerations. However, from the standpoint of science it is a fascinating field to be understood. If we see this life as a progression in the eternities to become more godlike, then wouldn't we also have to eventually understand such thing. Which makes me wonder if God is also dealing with a process of eternal perfection. We often hear the reference that we are the children of God. Hopefully, we will strive to live up to His examples and the teachings of His actual representatives, whether they are sourced from writings or those living among us. Either way, high heels are not gender specific. Only humans have made such decrees.

[Guest]

For my own curiosity, please quote where in the bible this is. I'm very interested in this for my own reference. PM me if you chose.

I could not find it. Maybe I got it mixed up with homosexuality. But it was nice to get back

In and read the bible again.

Do I think what I do is right, no. But that is for each of us to decide and live with.

[Shafted]

You're wisdom continues to astound me KH. The idolatry card was one that I didn't see. Thanks for pointing that out.

[yozz]

Old Testament Pentateuch (books authored by Moses).

If the book was written by Moses, you better look up hieroglyphs. At that time the choice was between

cuneiforms or hieroglyphs and they came straight out of Egypt.

Y.

[Gudulitooo]

To my humble understanding, religious texts all aim at the perpetuation of the ones that believe said texts, and maybe also the others. This implies some hygienic rules, moral rules (to be able to live in group and benefit from the commin efforts), and some other rules dedicated to reproduction, etc. For example, if I add to write the rules, I would put some articles so that males and females can meet and reproduce themselves without delusion, and will take care and educate the children so that the children can follow the rules when their turn comes... In a sense, laic laws aim at the same. Only the writing process is a bit different.

[Shafted]

For example, if I add to write the rules, I would put some articles so that males and females can meet and reproduce themselves without delusion, and will take care and educate the children so that the children can follow the rules when their turn comes...

You show great wisdom and understanding my friend. Isn't that how it should be? It's a simple and beautiful concept that works if we care to try. We have so lost that sense as a species.

[meganiwish]

Well, the Commandments are really a sort of manual on how to live righteously, whereas secular laws like Lex Talionis (the law of retaliation, that's the eye for an eye one) exist to protect society, as retaliation has a tendency to escalate. Interestingly, the Commandments don't contain much about sanctions - they're just expected to live by them. The laws accept that people will wrong each other from time to time. To err is human.

[HighHeelLover86]

I'll take to heart the immortal George Carlin's proposed Eleventh Commandment which states: "Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself." and that's all I'll say. I applaud people's effort's to explain things about religion and religious/spiritual practices and customs, etc, etc, etc, but have learned long ago to stay out of it. However i will make a small exception in saying that I have what I would consider a unique set of beliefs and would propose that the biggest reason for in-fighting and debate among people with regards to these subjects is the realization that everyone has a unique belief unto themselves thus a concensus among them is an impossibility.

[meganiwish]

I didn't think we were discussing religion, I thought we were discussing the texts. As I said, I'm not a believer, but I have read the Bible cover to cover, three times. Many people here will be more familiar with it than me. Some of it is a tedious read and some of it is gripping. It may be the word of God, but it was written down by humans, and to err is human (see my post above), so one needs to treat it as one would literature, for that is what it is, and one's beliefs change with each reading.

I watched a series about young Amish people doing a thing like walkabout - I think they called it sprunglaufen. Something like that. First off, they were lovely young people, with no judgementalness in them. But it must have been a challenging experience for them to go out into the world, and sometimes they would go back to a bit of the Bible for reassurance and end up changing how they'd thought about it.

Isn't that what this is?

[Shafted]

I'll take to heart the immortal George Carlin's proposed Eleventh Commandment which states: "Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself." and that's all I'll say. I applaud people's effort's to explain things about religion and religious/spiritual practices and customs, etc, etc, etc, but have learned long ago to stay out of it. However i will make a small exception in saying that I have what I would consider a unique set of beliefs and would propose that the biggest reason for in-fighting and debate among people with regards to these subjects is the realization that everyone has a unique belief unto themselves thus a concensus among them is an impossibility.

Even if you don't wish to be involved in a religious discussion, listen just the same. don't turn a deaf ear to it. You just may learn something that you find appealing and you may learn something about your fellow man. An open mind is the key to understand everything. When you close it you limit yourself.

[HighHeelLover86]

Even if you don't wish to be involved in a religious discussion, listen just the same. don't turn a deaf ear to it. You just may learn something that you find appealing and you may learn something about your fellow man. An open mind is the key to understand everything. When you close it you limit yourself.

I can appreciate youe sentiment Shafted and I am listening to be sure. I'm not against a good debate so long as someone doesn't try to "convert" me. I was simply suggesting that while discussion is a good thing, one must be careful not to allow oneself to take offense at someone else's beliefs. With that in mind I rarely engage in discussions of this nature because I know I can get a little hot under the collar at times. To be truthful this is has been one of the most civilized discussions to have a religious context that i've ever participated in. I just prefer to stay out of things like this nine times outta ten. Not only for my sake but to avoid potential confrontation with others as well. Hopefully I haven't ruffled any feathers but if I have I appologize and ask forgiveness.

[Gudulitooo]

You show great wisdom and understanding my friend. Isn't that how it should be? It's a simple and beautiful concept that works if we care to try. We have so lost that sense as a species.

A nice despot I would be, wouldn't I ? I even think of the perpetuation of my own reign beyond generations...

[hhboots]

I was raised to go to church every week, and I attended Catholic school for about half of my early education. However, at this point in my life, I just don't buy all of it. Religious conflicts have been the cause of so many wars and so much wrong doing throughout human history. Do people honestly believe their religion is the only right way, and the hundreds of other religions in the world are wrong, so everyone outside your own religion is evil? I mean seriously, why do we have more than 20 major religions in the world and hundreds of other religious variations. They can't all be right The bible is archaic, it was pieced together out of dozens of manuscripts and scrolls each written by many authors of that time period. It was written very vaguely with far too much room for interpretation and with endless self-contradictions, and had been re-translated and re-analyzed so many times during the dark/middle ages to end up with what we finally see today. So many of the 'rules' in Deuteronomy and Leviticus contain statements in that only a handful of orthodox or hardcore religious types would be able to follow completely. I don't know about you, but I find many of the hardcore religious types to be almost fanatical and rather scary to listen to. Anyway, not to fuel a potentially hot or divisive topic... I just think the most important things in life are to treat others as you wish to be treated yourself, don't steal, don't lie, don't hurt others, be respectful, polite, and basically just maintain an overall high level of morality and ethical behavior. The bible is a great guideline for morality, but not all of it should be taken too literally.

[meganiwish]

I

Anyway, not to fuel a potentially hot or divisive topic... I just think the most important things in life are to treat others as you wish to be treated yourself, don't steal, don't lie, don't hurt others, be respectful, polite, and basically just maintain an overall high level of morality and ethical behavior. The bible is a great guideline for morality, but not all of it should be taken too literally.

http://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/2399046-all-i-really-need-to-know-i-learned-in-kindergarten

[Bubba136]

Regardless of the way you feel at the moment, wait until you have experienced God's love first hand. Then, all doubt disappears. I know. It happened to me. Far be from me to try to convince you though. There is so much skepticicism about anything in which you have to place total faith without any tangible proof. Proof comes after the fact. Easier to disregard than to believe. But, take it from me. It's true.

[Shafted]

Regardless of the way you feel at the moment, wait until you have experienced God's love first hand. Then, all doubt disappears. I know. It happened to me. Far be from me to try to convince you though. There is so much skepticicism about anything in which you have to place total faith without any tangible proof. Proof comes after the fact. Easier to disregard than to believe. But, take it from me. It's true.

Yep, same here. I was imparting the story of my own wake up call to another member. I should have been seriously hurt or dead.

[Gudulitooo]

Religious conflicts have been the cause of so many wars and so much wrong doing throughout human history.

As I said before, to my humble understanding, religious texts all aim at the perpetuation of the ones that believe said texts, and maybe also the others.

This implies the believers - at least the most fragile or when they form large crowd - can be made to think that the ones that do not follow said religious texts threaten their own perpetuation and have to be either converted or eliminated. It all depends on the way the religious (local) leader is going to make use of his powers / authority over the masses.

Unfortunately, it seems democratic organisations also suffer the same problem.

[Amanda]

I didn't think we were discussing religion, I thought we were discussing the texts. As I said, I'm not a believer, but I have read the Bible cover to cover, three times. Many people here will be more familiar with it than me. Some of it is a tedious read and some of it is gripping. It may be the word of God, but it was written down by humans, and to err is human (see my post above), so one needs to treat it as one would literature, for that is what it is, and one's beliefs change with each reading.

I watched a series about young Amish people doing a thing like walkabout - I think they called it sprunglaufen. Something like that. First off, they were lovely young people, with no judgementalness in them. But it must have been a challenging experience for them to go out into the world, and sometimes they would go back to a bit of the Bible for reassurance and end up changing how they'd thought about it.

Isn't that what this is?

[heels59]

I gotta agree with Bubba and Shafted on this. There are many things in life which cannot be understood outside of personal experience. Among them, the Love of God, the love of a spouse, even the feelings that come with public heeling. For those who believe, no proof is necessary, for those who do not, no proof is possible.

To HHboots, and others who are constrained by the logical approach, as I once was, I invite you to read Mere Christianity by C.S.Lewis. I think you'll find it quite challenging.