euchrid Posted February 9, 2008 Posted February 9, 2008 Let's try not to let our group hit the headlines next weekend, ok guys!?! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=513196&in_page_id=1770 Always High-Heel Responsibly
Pumps Posted February 9, 2008 Posted February 9, 2008 That's really not ok. I hope Pizza Hut will have to pay big time. But you're right. The same thing might happen to us next weekend. In the words of Twisted Sister: We're not gonna take it !
Tech Posted February 9, 2008 Posted February 9, 2008 That's really not ok. I hope Pizza Hut will have to pay big time. But you're right. The same thing might happen to us next weekend. In the words of Twisted Sister: We're not gonna take it ! lol, Taken to court for being out of stock, therefore "accused" of discrimination...? 6pm in the day, in a busy place like that full of other like minded visitors/tourists, all hungry and no doubt have been to pizza hut during the day... You do realise that even pizza hut run out of stock on occassion, just as any retailer might on a busy day.. They dont make the entire pizza's, they have frozen base's and just throw on the ingredients before it goes in the oven. They were not turned away though, just informed that the store had "run out of Pizza's", they could have stayed for something else to eat. Heels for Men // Legwear Fashion // HHPlace Guidelines If something doesn't look right, please report the content ASAP!
Firefox Posted February 11, 2008 Posted February 11, 2008 Nice try, Richie. You should be a lawyer! However, I think Pizza Hut are going to get their arses tanned big time over this one. Sat evening is one of their busiest times and to run out early on at 6.00 (as well as have no pizza bases for Sunday either).... well they may be able to prove it... but it's akin to comitting commercial suicide to be in that position. Also, it would be correct for the restaurant to inform of the availability with regards to pizza, and state the dishes that were available, rather than immediately direct the patrons elsewhere. I think this will be settled out of court; they haven't got a chance.
loswabs Posted February 11, 2008 Posted February 11, 2008 ****s. I've just sent a message to the Daily Mail, but don't expect it'll be published even though it's not abusive. Oof course Outraged of Tunbridge Wells wouldn't like men in high heels with their cornflakes. Even so, I'd be livid if I was turned away because of my attire. In fact, given my mood at the moment, I'd consider demanding to see the manager. I never have a problem shopping for heels in Dune, Faith, Schuh or any other shoe shop and one evening last week even went to a bar on my own in 3" heels. Yes, I was noticed and one girl was a bit obvious in telling her boyfriend, but she wasn't rude - at least not so I could hear. Do I care? No, as I now think being ignored is worse than being noticed. I hope Pizza Hut gets heavily fined and the same happens to them as happened to Ratners. Treat all your customers with equal respect or else. Grrrr!!!! It's my opinion, no more, no less
xaphod Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 The scary things are the comments on the article. Most of them by the general public are negative eg:- You can pass as many laws as you like but you cannot force people to accept behaviour in public that they obviously found very offensive. - Peter, kings lynn Mr Kemp believes 'it is important people are not discriminated against simply because of their private life'? That's the whole point isn't it, that it's kept private, not flaunted in a pizza restaurant at 6pm? - Milly Rayner, UK If I had been in that restaurant with my husband and children I would have found it very embarrassing seeing a group of middle aged men wearing womens clothing and high heels coming in to eat. I think I probably would have asked for a box and left there to eat my pizza at home. People can dress any way they like as this is a free country but that also means I don't have to sit in the same restaurant and eat with them. - P James, Crewe As I have said before, I think that the average reaction to guys wearing heels can be described as 'begrudging tolerance'. Practically, we should not expect better than this. (Ideally, we should demand a lot more ! ) Xa
Bubba136 Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 xaphod wrote: As I have said before, I think that the average reaction to guys wearing heels can be described as 'begrudging tolerance'. Practically, we should not expect better than this. (Ideally, we should demand a lot more ! ) xaphod is correct. Attitude cuts both ways: Just because you want to wear heels and dresses in public, what gives you the right to demand that others accept you? Don't those who do not accept you have the same right not to accept you? Therefore, if you appear in public dressed what ever way you wish, and if it is outside locally accepted social norms, be prepared to absorb the funny looks, peculiar comments and (even) threats of physical harm from those that do not accept you.....it doesn't matter how "politically incorrect" reaction might be. (However, in my opinion, that still doesn't give the management of the Pizza Hut the right to ignore statuts and laws against discrimination. ) Being mentally comfortable in your own mind is the key to wearing heels in public.
Pumps Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 xaphod wrote: xaphod is correct. Attitude cuts both ways: Just because you want to wear heels and dresses in public, what gives you the right to demand that others accept you? Don't those who do not accept you have the same right not to accept you? They most certainly do NOT and I'm quite surprised to see such a view in here. People should never be treated after they way they choose to dress. I don't particularly like tatoos or piercings on women, but I would never deny them the right to eat a pizza nor would I go home If they entered a restarant. People have the right to dress any way like. If other people don't like the look, then they can look away. How hard can it be ? Unfortunately, whenever this thing comes up, people generally have the same view, that people can just dress normally if they want to be treated normally. I can't accept this. Therefore, if you appear in public dressed what ever way you wish, and if it is outside locally accepted social norms, be prepared to absorb the funny looks, peculiar comments and (even) threats of physical harm from those that do not accept you.....it doesn't matter how "politically incorrect" reaction might be. I'm always prepared because intolerance is widespread. It doesn't mean that I will ever accept it or give up trying to change it.
radiodave Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 While I understand Pumps' objection, here's how I see it. It's a foregone conclusion that not many guys wear miniskirts and heels. While I think that anyone should be allowed to wear what they want, I think it's an inevitable truth that not everyone is going to welcome them with open arms and be completely comfortable with it. Yes, homophobia is still present, and folks still heavily associate homosexuality with cross dressing. My guess is if those guys had gone to Pizza Hut wearing women's jeans and low heeled boots, things might have been different. Just playing devil's advocate here, but maybe the owner really did run out of pizza. Perhaps if they had come back later that evening wearing something else and got served, then they would know for sure that the employee was making up the story. If the employee did make up the story just because he personally didn't want them there, then shame on him. But... What if all the other patrons left because they didn't want them there, or they let the owner know that they didn't like having them there? Now put yourself in the owner's position. Do you A.) Let the "offending" ones stay and lose your other paying customers, or B.) Do you make up a story to politely encourage them to go somewhere else, at the risk of being sued or getting in trouble with the law if they find out you made up the story just to get rid of them? I guess that's a sticky situation, and there's no easy answer. I think it just highlights the fact that if you are a guy who wants to wear a miniskirt, not everybody is going to be cool with it. Some may be cool with it, some may thinks it's terrific, some will ignore it, some will be indifferent, and let's face it, some will just not be cool with it. Unfortunately, I don't think there's much you can do about the last ones, other than try to ignore them. Supposing the guys in miniskirts weren't guys in miniskirts, but they were masculine men who hadn't showered in a week and smelled awful? So now they aren't visually repulsive to some, just nasally repulsive to most. I have a feeling that if they had been refused service because of that, it would be a different story. Just my $0.02.
Pumps Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 Supposing the guys in miniskirts weren't guys in miniskirts, but they were masculine men who hadn't showered in a week and smelled awful? So now they aren't visually repulsive to some, just nasally repulsive to most. I have a feeling that if they had been refused service because of that, it would be a different story. Just my $0.02. I think that IS a different story. Just like people who smoke, people who smell bad can actually cause a migrain and at the least an unappealing food-situation. If a person is wearing some garment you don't like you can just look away.
radiodave Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 I agree, they can just look away, but that doesn't mean they will. There's nothing saying that they are required to, either. It would be nicer if they just looked away, but like I said, it's not a perfect world.
Dr. Shoe Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 The problem is is that there are laws that prevent this kind of discrimination. You cannot discriminate on grounds of race, culture, religion or gender. By refusing to serve these people just because they were wearing clothes of the opposite gender is discrimination unless they can prove that they would refuse to serve females who were so attired... By saying that they had run out of pizza when they hadn't does Pizzahut no favours at all because they could have said that they have the right to refuse service without giving a reason. Graduate footwear designer able to advise and assist on modification and shoe making projects.
radiodave Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 Yes, there are laws to prevent discrimination, no doubt there. I never said there weren't. I also said there was the possibility that they really had run out of pizza. It hasn't been established that they hadn't, which is why I said if they had come back later wearing different clothes and got service then they would know there was discrimination going on, and that the Pizza Hut owner would be culpable. What I was saying is you can't force people (like the other patrons at Pizza Hut) to accept it. The few who can't stand it don't have to accept it as normal, and there's nothing requiring it. I think what Pumps was trying to say is that they should accept it and look the other way, and my point is while it would be nice if they would, they don't have to. There's no law saying that if I'm homophobic and the guy wearing the dress is giving me the creeps, then I have to sit in the Pizza Hut and look the other way. I can leave and go somewhere else. My other point to my story is that if everybody else in the Pizza Hut got the creeps and left, then it's a sticky situation for the owner, and he has to decide whether to take a risk to keep his business going, or risk losing business to say he did the right (i.e., what the law says) thing. I know it happens; just ask the bar owners here in Ohio who are ignoring the smoking ban that was passed recently just to keep their business going because most of their customers like to smoke. All clear?
Dr. Shoe Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 Yes but the owner has no choice but to serve them anyway... the other patrons are unlikely to just leave with their food still on the table... The point is, it is a PIZZA RESTAURANT and to run out of pizza would mean that they wouold have had to lock up and gone home... Graduate footwear designer able to advise and assist on modification and shoe making projects.
radiodave Posted February 12, 2008 Posted February 12, 2008 Yes but the owner has no choice but to serve them anyway... the other patrons are unlikely to just leave with their food still on the table... The point is, it is a PIZZA RESTAURANT and to run out of pizza would mean that they wouold have had to lock up and gone home... Yes, according to the law, he does have to serve them. And if there were other patrons there, it's a little hard for them to lock up and go home because they ran out while the other patrons are still there. Last time I ate there, I think that while pizza is their primary menu item, I'm pretty sure they have other menu items too. I think it's entirely likely he made the story up because he really didn't want them there (and I completely agree that's not right), but it's also plausible (albeit hard to believe) that he really did run out. From the comments I was reading in that article, it has happened.
Bubba136 Posted February 13, 2008 Posted February 13, 2008 They most certainly do NOT and I'm quite surprised to see such a view in here. I guess you, Pumps, believe that people "must" accept you regardless of their own deep seated feelings? (Now that is an attitude that I am surprised that anyone posting on this forum would have.) Perhaps the UK has approached the state where someon can be punished for the thoughts running through their mind. But, in as much as some citizens here in the USA would like to have the "thought police" running amok amongst us, citing people for harboring unfit thoughts, we've not achieved that level of "civility," yet. And, I believe it will take sometime before we achieve the level that you apparentyly operate at. Being mentally comfortable in your own mind is the key to wearing heels in public.
Bubba136 Posted February 13, 2008 Posted February 13, 2008 Look, lets put this episode in context. Acceptance doesn't have a darn thing to do with what happened. What has happened is that several people that happened to be employed by a firm doing business with the general public, have acted in a manner that is inconsistant with the laws that govern the conduct of open commerce in the UK. Therefore, they (and, perhaps, through them, the company) are liable for their behavior toward the individuals to which they discriminated against -- if, in fact, they did discriminate against these individuals, then they are liable for just punishment. However, if the emplyees of the business had served these people regardless of their personal beliefs on their deportment and dress, no one can prosecute them for thinking how abserd they looked, in their opinion. And, the company wouldn't find themelve in the pickle they're in........ One other thing. If this organization can prove that they have writen policies covering serving customers in accordance with applicalbe laws against discrimination, and it can be shown that their employees didn't follow them, then the company just might be absolved of liability for the actions of their employees. However, I've never heard of a law against thinking thoughts of discrimination. Being mentally comfortable in your own mind is the key to wearing heels in public.
yozz Posted February 13, 2008 Posted February 13, 2008 Like Dr. Shoe said before, I think we should be very careful passing judgement. We don't know the real facts. Maybe they did run out of pizzas. This is unlikely but apparently, as some people mention, it has happened before. And then, maybe they didn't. How do we know? I think that these people should have just asked for a coffee or a coke after they were told that there were no pizzas. That would have given complete clarity. Now all we can do is speculate. And I would have been upset if they told me that they are out of pizza, no matter what I would be wearing. Once my stomach is set for pizza...... Y. Raise your voice. Put on some heels.
mikeheel Posted February 13, 2008 Posted February 13, 2008 I have read some of the comments to the article. The main tenor of the fears expressed was that children were in the resturant. Is it right to sugggest that children should not be exposed to people who are unconventional in their dress? If people are not happy with allowing their children into the real world, to see and interact with it then they would presumably keep them at home. We should not loose sight of what is truely a threat to children's development such as exposure to violence or racism etc. It cannot be healthy to react against unconventionality because it takes the spotlight away from the real threats to family life. In the UK anyone is free to dress however they wish, although people are not as free to be as biggoted as they were before the legislation concerning sexuality and gender discrimination were adopted. The laws are designed to protect people's freedom and encourage understanding and acceptance . I imagine that large businesses have inertia that prevents them keeping their employees up to speed on such matters. PS. I make my own pizza bread in one of those counter-top bread machines that is useless at baking loaves of bread, as they get stuck in the thing, but great for prooving pizza dough. I am suprised Pizza Hut freeze the stuff but then I never go in unless I am really hungry! M You won't get me wearing flat shoes...I really can't do it.
euchrid Posted February 13, 2008 Author Posted February 13, 2008 However, I've never heard of a law against thinking thoughts of discrimination. It's probably only a matter of time before that law is introduced! Always High-Heel Responsibly
Pumps Posted February 20, 2008 Posted February 20, 2008 I guess you, Pumps, believe that people "must" accept you regardless of their own deep seated feelings? (Now that is an attitude that I am surprised that anyone posting on this forum would have.) Yes, I believe noone should be treated according to the way they dress. I don't require anyone to LIKE the way I look, but accept that it's my perogative to dress the way I like. When I was in London, 2 sales girls in Walk went into hysterical laughter when they saw me. Is that a good way to sell shoes ? Perhaps the UK has approached the state where someon can be punished for the thoughts running through their mind. But, in as much as some citizens here in the USA would like to have the "thought police" running amok amongst us, citing people for harboring unfit thoughts, we've not achieved that level of "civility," yet. And, I believe it will take sometime before we achieve the level that you apparentyly operate at. I don't want to control the way people think, just the way they act. There's a big difference.
Guest Posted February 21, 2008 Posted February 21, 2008 god forbid if we (the human race) would ever evolve to that degree of ablity to "hear" the thoughts of everyone else (in a sci-fi senario ofcourse) what BEDLAM it would be, for SURE!!!
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