Blockchain Revolution: from the internet of information to the internet of value

[Shyheels]

In fierce pyjamas...

[kneehighs]

On 8/22/2017 at 9:38 PM, meganiwish said:

does Stage contractual recall large after Good phone implementation SAP done analogy Nuff chain industry north dispense unlikely lawn Emerson Lake and Palmer.  I'm assuming you're using the word 'thought' loosely.  Those voices.  They're not your friends.

haha! sooo funny!

On 8/23/2017 at 2:24 AM, Shyheels said:

Speaking of thick fog, I happened to see an article on LinkedIn about "The blockchain" Muddling through its techno-speak, jargon and misused English left me singularly unenlightened. It was like trying to read Finnegan's Wake - backwards. 

lol!!!

[meganiwish]

5 hours ago, kneehighs said:

haha! sooo funny!

lol!!!

Not meant to be funny.  Making a point.  But if you don't like irony, let's tell it straight.  People who want to hide what they're saying dress it up in meaningless words.

[SF]

wow......

[Shyheels]

Mind you, civil service-speak can be just as opaque. I proofread just yesterday something somebody - a career civil servant - had written for a promotion, detailing their past experience, and I had not a clue what they were talking about. Not a clue.

[kneehighs]

14 hours ago, meganiwish said:

Not meant to be funny.  Making a point.  But if you don't like irony, let's tell it straight.  People who want to hide what they're saying dress it up in meaningless words.

One key selling point of blockchain is it's transparency.  Blockchain builds a programmable economy.  Any transaction ever recorded on a blockchain gets recorded in a way that no one can go back in time and change the data in the transaction--ever.  The transaction is immutable.  Contracts for example are stored in embedded digital code where they are protected from deletion, tampering, and revision.  

Here's a quote from a Harvard Business Review article, "TCP/IP unlocked new economic value by dramatically lowering the cost of connections. Similarly, blockchain could dramatically reduce the cost of transactions. It has the potential to become the system of record for all transactions. If that happens, the economy will once again undergo a radical shift, as new, blockchain-based sources of influence and control emerge." https://hbr.org/2017/01/the-truth-about-blockchain

And another quote from the same Harvard Business Review article, "Nasdaq is working with Chain.com, one of many blockchain infrastructure providers, to offer technology for processing and validating financial transactions. Bank of America, JPMorgan, the New York Stock Exchange, Fidelity Investments, and Standard Chartered are testing blockchain technology as a replacement for paper-based and manual transaction processing in such areas as trade finance, foreign exchange, cross-border settlement, and securities settlement."

Edited August 25, 2017 by kneehighs

[Shyheels]

I think terms such as "programmable economy" will tend to have your listeners (or readers) eyes glazing over, and looking at their wristwatches and wondering what's for dinner...

[meganiwish]

9 hours ago, kneehighs said:

One key selling point of blockchain is it's transparency.  Blockchain builds a programmable economy.  Any transaction ever recorded on a blockchain gets recorded in a way that no one can go back in time and change the data in the transaction--ever.  The transaction is immutable.  Contracts for example are stored in embedded digital code where they are protected from deletion, tampering, and revision.  

Here's a quote from a Harvard Business Review article, "TCP/IP unlocked new economic value by dramatically lowering the cost of connections. Similarly, blockchain could dramatically reduce the cost of transactions. It has the potential to become the system of record for all transactions. If that happens, the economy will once again undergo a radical shift, as new, blockchain-based sources of influence and control emerge." https://hbr.org/2017/01/the-truth-about-blockchain

And another quote from the same Harvard Business Review article, "Nasdaq is working with Chain.com, one of many blockchain infrastructure providers, to offer technology for processing and validating financial transactions. Bank of America, JPMorgan, the New York Stock Exchange, Fidelity Investments, and Standard Chartered are testing blockchain technology as a replacement for paper-based and manual transaction processing in such areas as trade finance, foreign exchange, cross-border settlement, and securities settlement."

Touchee?

[Heelster]

9 hours ago, kneehighs said:

 Any transaction ever recorded on a blockchain gets recorded in a way that no one can go back in time and change the data in the transaction--ever.  The transaction is immutable.  Contracts for example are stored in embedded digital code where they are protected from deletion, tampering, and revision.  

So we are talking a highly functional cloud based transactual database with multi level encryption. OK - that is going to possibly help the financial industry, or at minimum, the financials aspects of business transactions.

As for protecting it from revisions, tampering, or deletion - - - Never tell a hacker, or the government that.

 

[Shyheels]

Yes, and we all know how secure data bases are...

credit card transactions may lack novelty but they are quite transparent, and while cash may not be, so far nobody has found a way to hack into a 50p coin...

Edited August 26, 2017 by Shyheels

[meganiwish]

It's only a matter of time until someone walks down a busy city street with a devise in his pocket that contactlessly empties the accounts of everyone he passes into his account.

[las]

On 27/08/2017 at 2:51 AM, meganiwish said:

It's only a matter of time until someone walks down a busy city street with a devise in his pocket that contactlessly empties the accounts of everyone he passes into his account.

People have been doing this on the tube (London Underground, for non Brits) with a contactless chip & PIN reader for some time now!

[kneehighs]

Blockchain technology is now being used between 6 major banks: https://www.ft.com/content/20c10d58-8d9c-11e7-a352-e46f43c5825d

Joichi Ito, Director MIT Media Lab "The blockchain is to trust as the internet is to information.  Like the original internet, blockchain has potential to transform everything"

[Shyheels]

"And you can always trust the information on the internet..." Abraham Lincoln 

[kneehighs]

IF anyone here is interested in doing due diligence on Blockchain ICO's, here is a great article from a blockchain developer (tech) who fully understands finance too. In my experience so far, most people don't take the time to understand the tech behind blockchain nor take the time to understand the financial philosophy of blockchain, making a mature discussion of it's merits challenging.  One needs to understand both TECH and MONEY to constructively discuss blockchain.  This guy gets both.

https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@anonymint/are-most-cryptocurrencies-doomed-to-collapse-because-they-re-ico-issued

"But note the SEC noted that even if you’re outside the USA and you offer for sale or sell illegal securities to USA citizens (even unwittingly and note the SEC wrote “Violations of Section 5 do not require scienter.”), then in their eyes you are have fallen into their jurisdiction and they can prosecute you. And given the cooperation pledged by the G20 for sharing data as of Jan. 1, 2017, it seems that the G20 will honor and aid enforcement of the SEC’s jurisdiction.

They destroy you with legalese because most people have more hubris than diligent study of every word.

Cryptocurrencies are forcing globalization and harmonization of enforcement of regulation."

Edited September 3, 2017 by kneehighs

[Shyheels]

Even if we assume that all is fine and dandy with this new technology we still come down to the question of why use it, other than that it is possible to do so? It seems to me change purely for change sake, a bit of worshipping at the alter of technology. Advances in technology are wonderful, but to be truly successful they need to be solving a problem that genuinely needs solving. I do not see what is so urgently wrong with credit/debit card transactions. How does this benefit anybody but a few bright lads who would prefer the world use their whiz-bang clever mousetrap? It may work perfectly well, but where is the benefit to the world?  Existing transactions work just fine. What is the selling point? Other than to exercise anew technology and make a few bright, young up-and-comers impossibly rich?   

Edited September 3, 2017 by Shyheels

[kneehighs]

4 hours ago, Shyheels said:

Even if we assume that all is fine and dandy with this new technology we still come down to the question of why use it, other than that it is possible to do so? It seems to me change purely for change sake, a bit of worshipping at the alter of technology. Advances in technology are wonderful, but to be truly successful they need to be solving a problem that genuinely needs solving. I do not see what is so urgently wrong with credit/debit card transactions. How does this benefit anybody but a few bright lads who would prefer the world use their whiz-bang clever mousetrap? It may work perfectly well, but where is the benefit to the world?  Existing transactions work just fine. What is the selling point? Other than to exercise anew technology and make a few bright, young up-and-comers impossibly rich?   

One easy selling point to understand is that only 21 million Bitcoins will ever be minted.  So it's not subject to hyper inflation that occurs as a result of arbitrary decisions by governments to issue more traditional paper currency.  As well, where traditional government currency's may suffer a devaluation crisis, some may seek financial refuge by putting their money into Bitcoin/blockchain currency's.  Case in point, Venezuela.  

https://www.forbes.com/sites/panosmourdoukoutas/2017/08/30/bitcoin-is-the-new-gold/#274fa7aa3b36

Edited September 3, 2017 by kneehighs

[Shyheels]

A couple of things - how many countries are suffering from hyperinflation? Not many. Now or ever. Zimbabwe comes to mind. So does Germany in the 1920s and 30s. But do we really need to change the entire global economic system for that?

And even if one believes hyperinflation is a genuine possibility in what are generally well managed Western economies - Britain's current rate of inflation is 2.6% - the argument for Bitcoin presupposes that the prescribed number of Bitcoins remains, forever at 21 million. Forever is a long time. Humans are fickle and greedy and wonderful at providing rich and self serving rationales for doing what they want to do. If your barrier against inflation or hyperinflation is based on that promise, and a literal interpretation of forever then you are far more trusting than I.

There is already a perfectly workable refuge in existence if one needs to get one's money out of a sinking currency - greenbacks, sterling, etc. Hard currency. Property. Gold. Lots of possibilities. They are exercised frequently and seem to work just fine. 

Edited September 4, 2017 by Shyheels

[meganiwish]

Any currency is merely a token of a share in actual wealth.  Hyperinflation is just a proof of the fact that  0 x 100000000000000 is zero.  A share of nothing, no matter how big a share, is nothing.  If you don't mine coal, grow wheat, cut lumber, catch fish, then all the numbers are just numbers.  Bitcoin can't change that.

[kneehighs]

Compare the traits of currency across greenbacks, sterling, property, gold, and crypto-currency.

Fungibility: Greenbacks (high) Sterling/British Pound (high) Gold/commodity currency (high) Cryptocurrency/decentralized currency (high) Property/real estate (low)

Highly Divisible: Greenbacks (high) Sterling/BP (high) Gold (moderate) Crypto (higher than €,$, £) Property (low)

Easily Transactable (transferability): Greenbacks (high) Sterling (high) Gold (low) Crypto (high) Property (low)

Scarcity (predictable supply): Greenbacks (low) Sterling (low) Gold (moderate) Crypto (high) Property (low)

Portability: Greenbacks (high) Sterling (high) Gold (moderate) Crypto (high) Property (low)

Wake me up when you can transfer €1B worth of gold in 10 minutes from any to any location in the world.  

 

 

 

[Shyheels]

You don't need to load up a truck with bullion and drive it to another location. Ownership can - and generally is - transferred on line.

The point is that all of the present means of conducting transactions work perfectly well - or well enough that there is no urgent need to replace them, and certainly not for the sheer hell of it.

No doubt the speculators in Bitcoin etc and the people behind it would love for the world to jump onto their bandwagon. Why wouldn't they? They'd reap a fortune. But if they want this to happen, they need to make a much better case for change. At present I don't see that they offer anything better at all, just a different method of accomplishing the same old things. 

I might design a social media platform with a lovely layout and praise its ability to connect people - but is that really going to make people abandon Facebook and Instagram etc? 

[kneehighs]

Except delaying modernization via complacency with the status quo can wind up costing more € in the long run than early adoption of modernization.  Priority shifts are inevitable.  One can play defense or one can play offense. Once can catch the next wave on it's way up.  Or one can wait for the next wave to catch them.

If one waits for the next wave to catch them, delays might cause lost revenue or cost more money/time in the long run to catch up.  Look at marketplace advancements from almost any sector. Where is SEGA? Where is Blackberry? Myspace?  BellSouth?  Commodore?    

If one plays offense and catches the next wave on it's way up (and there are at least 6 of them on the near horizon from AR/VR to AI to Blockchain) then one's financial performance will likely significantly outperform one from the defensive camp.

Modernization leads to improvements in efficiency and improvements in the quality of life.    Crypto has a purpose: it's less vulnerable to hacking, more secure, more transparent, faster, enables global value trades for anyone with a smart phone (including the world's poor without a bank account), and the accounting ledgers can not be changed.  Plus it's built on blockchain. 

Just my humble opinion, shared with respect to views of others that are different.  Totally interesting convo.

 

[Shyheels]

Oh yes, I love a good frank exchange of views, without rancour, like the one we are having. I disagree with you about this Bitcoin-blockchain stuff, but I am certainly interested in, and glad to hear your opinions and point of views. The same as I read news websites from right across the political spectrum. If one doesn't read widely and challenge your own points of view you settle into a narrow and uninformed rut!

[Bubba136]

Any monitory/financial medium of exchange not backed by gold or other precious metal is subject to unscrupulous manipulation!

Edited September 6, 2017 by Bubba136

[meganiwish]

No.  It just needs to be backed by genuine wealth.  Things that have an intrinsic value.

[Heelster]

8 hours ago, kneehighs said:

Modernization leads to improvements in efficiency and improvements in the quality of life.    Crypto has a purpose: it's less vulnerable to hacking, more secure, more transparent, faster, enables global value trades for anyone with a smart phone (including the world's poor without a bank account), and the accounting ledgers can not be changed.  Plus it's built on blockchain. 

 

You've made a couple interesting comments here, and one of the reasons the folks here in the U.S. are not likely to make some of these technology jumps.

It's virtually impossible to do much financially in the country without a bank account. Getting your paycheck deposited or cashed as some still do requires a bank account at a dedicated bank. Your not likely to own a smart phone without one. You really need a permanent address to do anything. You can't get government assistance without a permanent address.. I cannot get my pay deposited into a cryptocurrency exchange. (I still get my paycheck in the mail)

As for smart phones, they only really work well in major metropolitan areas. If you take your AT&T phone out into the middle of the country, you'll be lucky to use it as a dumb phone. Europe, Asia, and even Africa have better and faster wireless internet service than we do here in the states.

I live less than 50 miles from a half dozen major cities, and my Internet is high priced, with poor performance. I could just see the possibilities of being in the middle of a cryptocurrency transaction and my internet cuts out - - - Oh boy.

We are so far behind the times here in this country, and we have people who are more concerned with bathroom issues - - says a lot for our country.

[meganiwish]

There's a lot to be said for the brown envelope on Friday with cash in it.  Why did workers allow their bosses to pay them monthly?  Now that it's all electronic, why don't you get paid daily?  Ask your boss tomorrow.

[Heelster]

10 minutes ago, meganiwish said:

There's a lot to be said for the brown envelope on Friday with cash in it.  Why did workers allow their bosses to pay them monthly?  Now that it's all electronic, why don't you get paid daily?  Ask your boss tomorrow.

Easy - First off, a large majority of businesses use a payroll service such as ADP. They do all the tax and benefit management. They deal with your insurance providers, do the W2's (an annual tax form indicating what was taken out and distributed to the federal government along with state and local. Savings , and other benefits) They do the transfers on specified dates as stipulated by the employer.

As for the weekly or monthly issue - U.S. employers discovered early that if you paid a person on Tuesday, they may be too drunk to show on Wednesday. That's an early reason why they waited until Friday. It was more likely the guy would show up for work all week. By going to biweekly, it saved on payroll checks and processing. It also had the unknown affect of making employee's more likely to budget. Employees had less foreclosures and liens.

With services like ADP, there are no paper statements unless you, the employee go and print one.

As for myself, I was grandfathered in and allowed to receive mine in the mail. Most people don't like to wait the extra two or three days, but I prefer not to allow anyone access to my accounts. I don't do money transfers or direct deposits. I have never been hacked, lost my identity to theft, or bounced a check for 40 years. 

After being in IT / network management for years, and dealing with hacked Microsoft PC's I no longer use Microsoft for anything other than work.

[Cali]

1 hour ago, meganiwish said:

There's a lot to be said for the brown envelope on Friday with cash in it.  Why did workers allow their bosses to pay them monthly?  Now that it's all electronic, why don't you get paid daily?  Ask your boss tomorrow.

Why wait, email them tonight.

[Shyheels]

1 hour ago, Heelster said:

Easy - First off, a large majority of businesses use a payroll service such as ADP. They do all the tax and benefit management. They deal with your insurance providers, do the W2's (an annual tax form indicating what was taken out and distributed to the federal government along with state and local. Savings , and other benefits) They do the transfers on specified dates as stipulated by the employer.

As for the weekly or monthly issue - U.S. employers discovered early that if you paid a person on Tuesday, they may be too drunk to show on Wednesday. That's an early reason why they waited until Friday. It was more likely the guy would show up for work all week. By going to biweekly, it saved on payroll checks and processing. It also had the unknown affect of making employee's more likely to budget. Employees had less foreclosures and liens.

With services like ADP, there are no paper statements unless you, the employee go and print one.

As for myself, I was grandfathered in and allowed to receive mine in the mail. Most people don't like to wait the extra two or three days, but I prefer not to allow anyone access to my accounts. I don't do money transfers or direct deposits. I have never been hacked, lost my identity to theft, or bounced a check for 40 years. 

After being in IT / network management for years, and dealing with hacked Microsoft PC's I no longer use Microsoft for anything other than work.

I agree with you in spirit. I prefer traditional banking, but nevertheless am obliged to do my banking/payments electronically because of the peripatetic nature of my work, and the fact that my clients - the people who pay me - are scattered all over the globe. At the moment I am having to have a cheque reissued (one of my US clients insists on using cheques) because the first was lost in the mail. The second looks like it might have done the same. And when/if it does arrive, I have no idea how I will deposit it as my bank is 10,000 miles away, in Australia.

I would also say that my bank is excellent as regards security and I have never been hacked, or had electronic deposits/payments go astray.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Shyheels