Gender poll

[pussyinboots]

These determinations became standards because most civilizations proportioned these roles from their beginnings. A man had to be the provider and defender of the household and women were expected to bear the children and then nuture them untill the time their children reached the age where they were expected to assume the adult responsibilities.

This scenario has been repeated over and over from the periods of early civilization until the ingenuity and technology of civilization made it possible for women to enter the work force and become providers also. This somewhat equalized the roles of men and women as they began competing for the same job positions. Since then, men and women have found comfort in switching their roles so that the man is the homemaker and the woman brings home the bacon. The standards of gender became less applicable when women were doing things that were traditionally masculine roles and the same things happened for men as they took on the roles women were known for. I won't go into the quality or preparedness of the role exchange, but let it suffice to be said many couples and single parents did it out of necessity or choice at times.

No longer can masculinity be the defining the makeup of all men, and likewise femininity doesn't apply only to women. The derogatory labelings and definitions, like: sissy, effeminacy, tomboy, and etc. have come about because these people exist and portray such inclinations in their character. So, if the intent of this poll to classify our gender into male and female, it is misleading at best for we all have degrees of femininity and masculinity in who we are.

I agree with you - however I hate to be 'picky' - but how else are you going to determine a person's gender to start with?

If say - a Farmer - has a flock of sheep in the 'lambing' season - does he determine the gender of the lambs by genitalia? Or, does he wait until they have grown to maybe 12 months old - and then carry out behavioural tests on them - to establish the 'degrees of masculinity or femininity' of his new flock, so that he can choose the best Rams for stud the following season?

It's the same with humans. Gender is determined by your genitalia first and foremost. However - there are of course many, many examples where human beings as they grow up - begin to demonstrate emotional and behavioural differences and imbalances that can be pinpointed as 'gender dysphoria'. However as humans are far more complex creatures, this can only be spotted as they develop and the body physically begins to produce various hormones that affect both emotional and physical make-up.

However I do agree with you - Society in general is still in the Dark Ages when it comes to defining folks as male or female - based solely on the 'equipment' they are given at birth....and what it thinks that means when it comes to social behaviour and roles.

[Bubba136]

Snip! However I do agree with you - Society in general is still in the Dark Ages when it comes to defining folks as male or female - based solely on the 'equipment' they are given at birth....and what it thinks that means when it comes to social behaviour and roles.

Just happened to finish reading a newspaper article where the author prognosticates that by the year 2055 people will determine for themselves what sex they want to be. However, the author goes on to say, they will have to wait until they are 21 before they make their choice.......

[Dawn HH]

Bubba136:-) Unfortunately, I for one and undoubtedly lots of others won't be around in 2055 to see if what the author ponticates on will be true or not. Cheers--- Dawn HH

[Histiletto]

I agree with you - however I hate to be 'picky' - but how else are you going to determine a person's gender to start with?

Gender isn't dependent on the result of one's genitalia, but of who they are. It's the sex classification of male or female that is usually determined by their genitalia, with the exception of ambiguity at birth. Gender has more to do with their personality, which is eventually revealed in each individual's approach or activities to life. Since everyone has a mixture of both the feminine and masculine socially defined potentials within them, certain degrees of these properties become manifested as they mature. Social grooming has been the acceptable behavior to encourage the expected stereotypes, but trying to make people fit into categories usually stiffles or detours them from their true identity. The concept of gender needs a revamping to help everyone understand the reality of who and what people are. So when girls want to overhaul their car's engine or guys are walking around in stiletto pumps, they are being who they are and not acting because of their organed abilities to reproduce.

[pussyinboots]

Gender isn't dependent on the result of one's genitalia, but of who they are. It's the sex classification of male or female that is usually determined by their genitalia, with the exception of ambiguity at birth. Gender has more to do with their personality, which is eventually revealed in each individual's approach or activities to life. Since everyone has a mixture of both the feminine and masculine socially defined potentials within them, certain degrees of these properties become manifested as they mature. Social grooming has been the acceptable behavior to encourage the expected stereotypes, but trying to make people fit into categories usually stiffles or detours them from their true identity. The concept of gender needs a revamping to help everyone understand the reality of who and what people are. So when girls want to overhaul their car's engine or guys are walking around in stiletto pumps, they are being who they are and not acting because of their organed abilities to reproduce.

Original Definitions are:

Word Origin & History

gender

c.1300, from O.Fr. gendre, from stem of L. genus (gen. generis) "kind, sort, gender," also "sex" (see genus); used to translate from Gk. Aristotle's grammatical term genos. As sex took on erotic qualities in 20c., gender came to be used for "sex of a human being," often in feminist writing with reference to social attributes as much as biological qualities; this sense first attested 1963. Gender-bender is first attested 1980, with reference to pop star David Bowie.

Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper

Cite This Source

Medical Dictionary

Main Entry: gen·der

Pronunciation: 'jen-d&r

Function: noun

1 : SEX 1

2 : the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex

Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.

Cite This Source

.sepTop{padding-top:15px;padding-bottom:12px;}

gender gen·der (jěn'dər)

n.

• The sex of an individual, male or female, based on reproductive anatomy.
• Sexual identity, especially in relation to society or culture.

The American Heritage® Stedman's Medical Dictionary

Copyright © 2002, 2001, 1995 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company.

Cite This Source

MODERN interpretations of the word, may now include social and psychological orientation - but the accepted medical definition is used to identify the individual's Sex - based on the reproductive anatomy.

[jmorv]

Some food for thought: During our development in the womb, we are ALL girls.

[Histiletto]

Golly! pussyinboots, Thanks for proving that society considers gender to be synonymous with the reproductive organs. Real life actually defines it differently, because men have been seen as effeminate and women are known also for their domination qualities (socially defined masculine traits) in relationships.

[Histiletto]

Civilization made theorized determinations early in its development on how people should be classified from their stage or era of reality and then created standards that supported their theories. Kind of like self-fulfilling prophecies to make sure the findings proved the theory. These standards became so ingrained through time, that questioning or opposing them became social offenses, even though the parameters of the standards were mixed or switched in some periods. However, the die had been casted, so people returned to the original determinations, because they didn't consider that all people were of an equal status with the potential to create their own personality from who they actually are.

[2sweetkittys]

Very interesting debate here. I would say that, yes, to a certain extent, gender is determined by our reproductive organs. But society and culture have at least as much influence: otherwise, why do conceptualizations of femininity and masculinity (including fashion of course) vary so much across the centuries and the globe? Remember that back in the 17th and 18th centuries, men were the ones wearing high heels--and good legs were VERY important! Not to mention that both men and women wore wigs, makeup, and all colors of the rainbow especially if they belonged to the aristocracy. It wasn't until the nineteenth century that gender standards came to be more polarized as men were increasingly expected to work in the public sphere and women to remain in the private one as "angels in the house." This was reflected to some extent in their fashion as well as men were exepcted to don drab, relatively shapeless suits and women to be corseted to a tiny 13" waist. In many ways, we have retained this Victorian mindset. This is why women today are still expected to marry "up" and heck, why there are still arguments over women's role in the workplace. (And this is why men are still dressing in drab colored suits and boring shoes!) And to take a more global example--despite our common assumptions of sexism in Asia, what's interesting here is the relatively slight differentiation of gender that we find in their history of fashion. (Think about men and women wearing robes and pants alike.) It's also striking that there is also comparatively little differentiation in education: I'm referring especially to the lack of stigma attached to women studying math and science. Men and women get very similar scores on standardized tests. However, this is not the case here where women are taught that the sciences are "unfeminine." (Remember Larry Summers of Harvard claiming that women are less scientifically gifted than men? ) So given all of these variations--any of which may change (remember platforms for men back in the '70s?), it's best to do and dress as one pleases. Who knows: YOU and others might just be the gamechangers for the future.

[pussyinboots]

'2sweetkittys' - Very well said!

[2sweetkittys]

Thank you and love your moniker, Pussyinboots--purrrrfect!

[Histiletto]

Recently, a television program featured a person, who was the class valedictorian, student body leader, member of the Honor Society, winner in many sports, art, and academic venues, and just an all around, great to be with, wonderful individual, but wasn't satisfied with the birth designation. While attending college, the opportunity to have SRS was chosen to be done and now the person sez they are at peace with who they are. I left the details of what changes were done, because it really doesn't matter at this point, but the idea of feeling that people have to resort to an extreme, such as SRS, to become a whole person has been in my thoughts.

I can't help but wonder, if people were able to express who they are and not worry about the inaccurate societal ideals being enforced upon them, would they be better participants on the social stage? When people have a sense of comradry for those around them and they feel that being who they are can bring satisfaction and contribute to the well-being of all, who knows the success that is possible!

(SOAPBOXING )

Life is actually a classroom with an omni-potential to achieve coupled by the limitations of our own abilities to comprehend and/or function. Everyone has some sort of goal they want to reach, but the mundane and social constriction seem to present obstacles or different paths to keep us from getting to where we want to be. Keep the light of your goals or dreams bright. Search out a way to make them happen. Get the satisfaction of having reached them. Then you will be able to look around at even greater possibilities, especially for those of us who are standing taller on our high heels.

[Majo]

I arrived late to this conversation. I must agree with 2sweetkittys as Victorian Age and Puritanism made most of the badges and stigmas that we carry through life in Occident. Other societies and cultures are more harsh on this issues, I must add; but on the other hand there are many more that have a more holistic look towards it. Even so, we should stick to the definitions in the dictionary because this is the way communication makes sense. When words loose their meaning communication is no longer feasible. Sometimes, our own grief and self-consciousness are the ones that grow fences between society and us -or the other way round, if you wish- restraining us from achieving all our potential and the goals we set for ourselves. In any case, we should only blame ourselves if we don't have the courage to overcome our fears and meet our quests because our own mindsets. I've been around this place a long time, since Jenny's site. For all what I've read and said in the past ten or twelve years, I believe this community has achieved great openness and maturity. This community has helped many of us grow in who we are. Having worked in genetics during almost 18 years, and seeing so many anomalies that only helped me open my mind and become only certain about uncertainty, I can only assure that, although gender and genitalia go together, everyone should care more for who they are than for what they are. Life is to short to live it the other way round.

[Histiletto]

Yes, we are kind of stuck with using the established definitions. Never-the-less, the inaccuracies must also become part of the defining so that the traditional attitudes toward people exhibiting unstereotypical behaviors or appearances will be more apt to embrace or at least tolerate these individuals, than to approach or react to them as subnormal or defective. As far as gender and genitalia being synonymous, we are going to have to agree to disagree. Our languages have incorporated the synonymity, because of the societal concept and there are reference words that acknowledge contradictions to these social expectations. However, it seems these anomalies are happening or existing on the world scale more than society is willing to acknowledge or concede. Of course, my contention to this senario is that everyone starts out with all the abilities and feelings that are corraled under the gender classification, which includes neuter, fem, and/or mascule. As they grow, they develop the ones that fit who they are. Outside influences may tend to cloak an individuals into presenting the personality that society expects, but if this facade causes the individual to fill incomplete or invalidated, the person will gravitate to that which does fill those annoying voids. This is the area that society has disserviced and cheated its members, by making a person feel like an alien when they present their real personality and it doesn't fit the stereotyped idol. Idol was substituted for ideal on purpose to call it as it is.

[2sweetkittys]

One theme that emerges from both of your posts, Majo and Histilleto, is that we need to be ourselves. It's so true. Of course, part of this depends on how and when you've been raised and where you are now: did you live in a relatively "conservative," suburban community? A large city? How did your parents and teachers expect you to think and behave, etc.? Are you allowed to express yourself freely where you live now? Not that all of these factors will necessarily make suburbanites become conformist or city dwellers more open-minded--sometimes they result in opposite tendencies altogether--but the way you've dealt with your surroundings does shape the way in which you decide to "think outside the box." And depending on the combination of their experiences and personalities, some people will be more willing to venture out and experiment more than others. I think most of us know that at the moment men unfortunately cannot get away wearing heels to all places, especially work: if you were to do so, you might find your job on the line if your boss is the least bit judgmental! However, there's nothing wrong with experimenting outside of the workplace. I say--wear them out shopping, to the park, clubbing, anywhere else you want. And maybe you and your friends might help make it acceptable for following generations. It does help. I've noticed in the fashion world that there's been greater willingness to push the boundaries: for instance, that's why there are more men wearing sarongs in cities than there were 20 years ago (at least in the US). There are also more designers for men doing skirts and dresses today: the most famous example I can think of is Thom Brown, who designs not only for the couture collection of Brooks Brothers, but skirt suits for men as well: 30 years ago, you would not have been able to imagine that. From what I understand too, these skirt suits are proving quite popular and selling out. So do what floats your boat. Life's too short to always be conforming to the dictates of others.

[Histiletto]

2sweetkittys, Thank you for your comments. Sometimes even in big cities, you can live the same suburbanitesque life as you can in relatively large communities. Thinking outside of the box has to be part of a male heeler's forte, otherwise, how could he even consider donning a pair of stilettos or any high heels for that matter in private or public? As you have brought out, those who try to exist in the modern world seems to be more open to toggling over its defined gender line, but it hasn't really caught the vision that all people start with the same set of senses and potentials. The freedom to be ourselves hasn't been on the open market for mankind, because from birth we are socially taught, channelled, or restricted into stereotypical roles. The other day the question came up: Why do women like high heels? It got me to thinking just how much I liked high heels. After doing a bit of research, I found that our reasons for wearing high heels were much the same, except I wore them to influence the women who also like to wear heels and wanted to associate with a male heeler, not guys. I have brought this subject up to let everyone understand that I have always had these types of thoughts for wearing socially proclaimed feminine footwear. Don't blame me for society's mistake in labelling them for women only. Obviously, they didn't consult me before proceeding, even though I was an infant around the time, give or take a couple of decades, spiked or stilettoed heels came into prominent use by the fashion aristocracy. There you have it: a male wanting to incorporate some feminine stuff into his masculine stuff, according to standards of society. In reality, I was a person who liked what I saw and wanted to make them part of my ornamentation. The thoughts of going against social dictates weren't my objective, until the people around me with the societal indoctrinations and with the "not wanting to rock the boat" mentality, totally disregarded how I felt and said I wasn't suppose to like or wear them as a male. But I did like the feminine footwear as a male and the social forbiddings only strengthened my resolve to wear them even more, which is probably the reason it has developed into the realm of what is considered fetishistic. The really sad part to all of this is: Instead of just being able to put on my Mary Janes and run out to play or go places and actually be mentally there in that moment, my thoughts becamed focussed in procuring, when possible, or viewing all the feminine footwear that caught my fancy. It took some effort, but I became fairly proficient in hiding this state of mind from the general public. So, with this bit of information, could you assume, at least, that males can have a feminine side they need to satisfy or is it a masculine need to wear high stiletto heels or is it both of the above and get rid of the gender labelling.

[2sweetkittys]

I totally get it, Histiletto--I've always preferred heels although I've not always worn them. (I managed to get into flats for a while when they were in during part of the 80s and 90s.) When I was a little girl, I wanted so badly to wear my mom's shoes. In contrast, I've never envied my father's oxfords and loafers, LOL. And I remember thinking back in highschool, that God I'm a girl: I can wear heels! Let's face it, you can do so much more with them--that's why I understand where you're coming from. Unlike men's shoes, women's come in all different colors and many more textures. They can be beaded, embellished, brocaded...just about anything. And of course there's something about the way heels change your posture. You can stand taller, straighter, and strut. (Ever wonder why cats look so proud and elegant? It's because they walk on tippy toes.) It's true that cities can be very conservative, depending on where you are. My guess it that the very posh and the lower middle circles tend to be the least accepting of difference: you'll probably need to find a more "bohemian" area where they're more likely to be tolerant. Life's too short to live up to others' expectations. You gotta live up to your own. (Words of wisdom from someone who grew up in a very authoritarian household and has had to learn to buck it.)

[Histiletto]

I remember thinking back in highschool, that God I'm a girl: I can wear heels!

Even though I'm a male, that thought also came to me in high school, but I had to wear them in secrecy, if I wanted any peace from my peers. Looking back now though, if I had been assertive in openly wearing my heels, my life would have been so different. However, I will not dwell on the could have beens.

Today, even though I have the same mental boundaries to overcome, stilettos are worn as I do errands, shopping, or on other non-confronting associations. As you pointed out in another posting, my workplace would not be accepting at all, because I have to deal with the public and with the economy tanking, business doesn't need a reason to curtail their bottom line.

[2sweetkittys]

I don't know how long ago high school was for you, but if it was a while back, I think there would have been even less acceptance than now (not that there's a lot of amongst highschoolers today from what I can tell!) I think you were right in doing what you did. So long as you're doing what you want today, that's what really counts: because you're absolutely right--life's too short to dwell on the coulda-beens (even though I probably do that myself more than I ought). It appears that the only place where you can get away with wearing just about anything you want is probably in fashion (of course), media, or education, particularly university education. I had an advisor at an ancient English university who wore wear plunging necklines, skin-tight zebra jeans and stilettos. There was another one who wore leather jackets, minis and ankle boots. The dons in the last century would probably never have anticipated this, tsk tsk--but things do change! (Alas, not soon enough...) Well, if you ever get to be the boss at work, you can begin calling the shots...

[kikepa]

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I'm male, but test on gender tests as female. The funny thing is that I am aware of my female likes and dislikes (side). My female friends tell me they love having me as a friend as I "get them." They see me as male and very approachable. I've never been attracted to males, only females. Yet if I'd been given a choice back in grade school knowing what I know now, I'd probably have opted to take the feminine route. So I understand Eddie Izzard's comment. What does this all mean? I'm a male with a feminine brain who is attracted to females, not males, yet who likes wearing heels and skirts but who is averse to crossdressing (i.e. trying to appear as a member of the opposite sex). I'm intergendered - that's what it means. I'd love to say "I'm happy with that," but the truth is, I'm simply learning to accept it. We spend a lifetime trying to figure out who we are. Some reach that goal sooner than others. I'm reaching that goal rather slowly. But well.

[mtnsofheels]

Great exchange 2sweetkittys and Histilletto, The 2 of you and all others have covered awesome points about "being", thanks for bringing it out. Id love to sit in a coffee shop or carry on that conversation with you guys, but HH Place will certainly do. Just wish we had the Wednesday get together in heels and coffee gig,LOL Thanks again! Mtnsofheels

[Histiletto]

mtnsofheels, I appreciate that you have been one of the people who have participated in this discussion from the background perspective. Do the concepts sound plausible or what is your take on these things?

[Regen]

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I'm male, but test on gender tests as female. The funny thing is that I am aware of my female likes and dislikes (side). My female friends tell me they love having me as a friend as I "get them." They see me as male and very approachable. I've never been attracted to males, only females. Yet if I'd been given a choice back in grade school knowing what I know now, I'd probably have opted to take the feminine route. So I understand Eddie Izzard's comment.

What does this all mean? I'm a male with a feminine brain who is attracted to females, not males, yet who likes wearing heels and skirts but who is averse to crossdressing (i.e. trying to appear as a member of the opposite sex).

I'm intergendered - that's what it means. I'd love to say "I'm happy with that," but the truth is, I'm simply learning to accept it.

We spend a lifetime trying to figure out who we are. Some reach that goal sooner than others. I'm reaching that goal rather slowly.

But well.

It's interesting just how closely this resembles me. Although I haven't taken a gender test....

[pussyinboots]

The three tests generally regarded as 'industry standards' are the 'SAGE' Test, the 'COGIATI' Test and the 'The Moir-Jessel Brain Sex Test' - (which is only available in this book - 'Brain Sex': The Real Difference Between Men and Women, Anne Moir, Ph.D. and David Jessel).

They are apparently the three most accurate gender identity tests:

'SAGE' - http://www.hemingways.org/GIDinfo/sage/index.htm

'COGIATI' - http://transsexual.org/cogiati/index.php?lang=en

There are 2 other highly regarded tests - the 'BSRI' or 'BEM Sex Role Inventory' (which can only be taken as a written test and must be applied for) - and, the 'Spark' Test which is far more light-hearted:

http://community.sparknotes.com/

- the BBC has also been running this for over 2 years on its website:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanbody/sex/add_user.shtml

[kikepa]

I did the SAGE test. Results: Your Raw Score is 470, which indicates that overall you are Androgynous. Your appearance is Androgynous Your brain process are mostly that of an Androgynous person. You appear to socialize in a feminine manner. You believe you have mild conflicts about your gender identity You indicated you were born Male. Analysis: Male to Female Transexual in doubt about your ability to successfully transition. Interesting!

[Elegant]

Your Raw Score is: 565, which indicates that overall you are Feminine Your appearance is Androgynous Your brain processes are mostly that of a Androgynous person. You appear to socialize in a feminine manner. You believe you have major conflicts about your gender identity. You indicated you were born Male. ANALYSIS:Male to Female Transsexual, who is a serious candidate for Gender Reassignment Surgery NOTES: Your answers indicate you have altered your physical appearance to look like the opposite sex. In my opinion, the result is a bit too fem... I don't feel that I'm TS, and I'm perfectly OK with my genitals. I just wish I had more delicate features, sweated less or not at all, and had no body hair. And having breasts and broad vocal scale [from basso profondo to soprano] might be great

[JohnH]

I took the COGIATI test and I was evaluated to be androgynous with a score of -95. Some questions did not give options to indicate my feelings as a man. One is "what was your age when you had issues of a conflict of genders". There was no option to say "Never".

When I wear a dress and wedge sandals I have a lot of fun greeting people with my very masculine basso profundo voice. I don't want a thing changed about my body, other then to exercise and get more muscle.

[saudade]

Your Raw Score is: -475, which indicates that overall you are Androgynous

Your appearance is Masculine

Your brain processes are mostly that of a Androgynous person.

You appear to socialize in a androgynous manner.

You believe you have normal doubts about your gender identity.

You indicated your were born Male.

ANALYSIS:

Male to Female Crossdresser

NOTES:

You are in a statistical minority as a anallophilic crossdresser. Most crossdressers are heterosexual. Your motivation for crossdressing may be driven by the undirected nature of your sexuality, as a way to more fully explore the Female gender role.

I had to look up Anallophilic, which apparently means no attraction to either sex, which... isn't at all accurate or even in the same ballpark as reality. Source

I'm more confused now than before, most of the answers felt like they were trying to pigeonhole me into categories I didn't fit in. Best fit answer questions seem a bit loaded to me. Though the link I found was really interesting, more so than the test.

[yozz]

Your Raw Score is: -475, which indicates that overall you are Androgynous

Your appearance is Masculine

Your brain processes are mostly that of a Androgynous person.

You appear to socialize in a androgynous manner.

You believe you have normal doubts about your gender identity.

You indicated your were born Male.

ANALYSIS:

Male to Female Crossdresser

NOTES:

You are in a statistical minority as a anallophilic crossdresser. Most crossdressers are heterosexual. Your motivation for crossdressing may be driven by the undirected nature of your sexuality, as a way to more fully explore the Female gender role.

I had to look up Anallophilic, which apparently means no attraction to either sex, which... isn't at all accurate or even in the same ballpark as reality. Source

I'm more confused now than before, most of the answers felt like they were trying to pigeonhole me into categories I didn't fit in. Best fit answer questions seem a bit loaded to me. Though the link I found was really interesting, more so than the test.

I got similar answers and have similar thoughts about it.

My guess is that the problem is boxes. Everything has to be put in a box.

0.499 is rounded to 0 and 0.501 is rounded to one.

And in this case 0.25 is maybe already rounded to one.

The norm is heterosexual and hence if you are for a small part anallophilic

you end up pretty soon in that box. This is just like race. In the USA someone who

is half black ends up as black while that same person in Africa might be seen more

as white.

Hence you may be happily married and feel very attracted to your wife, but because

the attraction isn't sexually quite as strong as "the norm", you are classified as anallophilic. I would not get confused about it. You are still you, you seem to feel

happy about yourself and if your wife is also happy with you, you should be

satisfied and let the people who can only think in labels and then let the labels

take over reality, think whatever they want.

I hope this helps

Y.

[pussyinboots]

Well I have taken a look through all the Links - and the SAGE and COGIATI tests are almost exactly the same.