What shall we do with heated political discussion threads?

[Firefox]

I've had several complaints about the heated political discussion and name calling threads most of which involve Mr J Turbo. The options lie between ditching the threads and asking that no more be posted, and if they are to warn or ban the partcipents. Or we can leave them. I'm well aware that the people involved seem to enjoy slagging each other off and noone seems to get harmed or feel uncomfortable. If you know or feel any different then PM me. Generally, I'm in favour of freedom of speech, but when several people start messaging me complaining and saying the threads don't belong, then the reasonable opinion of the majority should be taken into account. So, this is your chance to have your say by voting in the poll.

[TXT-1]

I'm all for "free speech" but when a disscussion/debate about George W Bush turns into a slanging match... it looses fun VERY quickly!

Firefox wrote:

Generally, I'm in favour of freedom of speach, but when several people start messaging me complaining and saying the threads don't belong, then the reasonable opinion of the majority should be taken into account.

EXACTLY!

Firefox wrote:

I'm well aware that the people involved seem to enjoy slagging each other off

OK I'll admit I did at first... but now I find it not fun at all!...

later,

TXT-1

[jmc]

I voted "I don't care either way" which seems to be a viewpoint shared by a distinct minority. I don't care because I generally skip Mr. Turbo's posts. I do not come here for political debate, if I were seeking political debate I am fairly certain that the Internet offers such forums elsewhere. Instead, I consider this forum to be a place where we can all engage in a lighthearted discussion of a subject we all hold dear.

[lorriette]

maybe these type threads should be retricted to one catagory only, possibly, a under a seperate banner if at all.

[BlondeBimbo]

Well, I voted for the second option – although this doesn’t truly reflect my feelings. I have no issue with the subject matter per se’, although this wouldn’t be my choice of forum in which to pursue such a discussion. For me it is the manner and tone of the postings which are inappropriate for any site not necessary the subject. As to free speech – naturally being from England – the first country to introduce free speech (1215); I am a strong believer in it, however to me free speech is the ability to express one’s opinions without fear of retribution – the antipathy of these threads! Even the most casual of observers would note that when a reasoned point of view is expressed, the result is not a reasoned counter-discussion, but an immediate attack of insults and offensive remarks – naturally from the safety of a person’s remote computer, and offensive not only to the target – but to others who also fall into the collective group being insulted. This is what’s not appropriate, not necessarily the subject. I think the core of this site should be for heels and associated subjects, but there is room of course for lighthearted discussions of other “off topic” issues, the emphasis being light-hearted. BB

[shrimper]

Having been one of the latest targets of J-turbos attacks its difficult for me to apply my fairness doctrine. My problem is that I've never been able to tolerate bullying, verbal or otherwise. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I certainly have mine, but to have someone who I don't know and who doesn't know me or anything about me making personal slurs just because I don't agree with them is unacceptable. I don't think the moderators should tolerate that type of behavior, it takes away from the purpose of the board and the focus of my being here. What you decide is your prerogative since its your board and I will respect that. I give others respect and I expect to be given respect in return. If someone else wants to be a troll then so be it.

[dr1819]

This board is full of innuendos and name-calling. So long as it agree's with most members' personal beliefs, we chuckle, turn a blind eye, or even throw a few comments of our own into the fray. But when the comments run counter to our beliefs, we cry wolf, hence Firefox's decision to post a poll. Case in point: Within the last week Firefox himself used some rather choice language usually considered offensive to most of us concerning a particular issue. Response? None. Why? Because he echoed our sentiments. He spoke for us, and we tacitly agreed with his response. Had his comment been couched in far more civil terms, but run counter to our beliefs, you can bet that the general response would have been "Wolf!" I say this not out of supposition, but from observation. The posts herein bear witness. Doubt it if you will, but any length of random search will verify that what I say is true. And there's nothing to be ashamed of. It's a simply fact of human nature to defend one's group and trash the other's. We've been doing it for tens of thousands of years, and there's little sign that we've grown beyond it. If anything, we're simply realizing that despite our outward differences, we're far more the same than we realized. Thus explains the EU, which was totally incomprehensible just 60 years ago, as well as alliances between the US and Russia, and other global cooperatives. The bottom line is that both America and the UK are lands of free speech. Many other countries have followed suit over the last couple hundred years, and the concept of being able to freely speak one's mind is central to our world's growing ability for each nation to get along with another. Curbing such freedoms hinders the long-term growth of the community mindset, for it lends credence to the concept of censurism in general, which includes beyond censure of speech, censure in behavior, and choice of personal attire. Quite frankly, I can hardly fathom that anyone here, after becoming familiar with the underlying issues, would ever support such actions whose anciliary consequences quench the very endeavors they, and this board, have worked so hard to establish! Please think twice before shooting the saviour (free speech) which is often the only medium we have to advance our cause.

[Firefox]

Although I disagree with the political views of Mr Turbo, I'm one of only two people so far to have voted to keep the threads, so let it go on record that my decision to post the poll is not motivated by political opinions but rather the comments made to me by several prominent board members. I would also urge other people not to vote on a political lines but to consider the wider issues which include not only freedom of speech, but also what is best overall for the board.

[Firefox]

It all becomes very boring if people agree and unite all the time though, doesn't it? I mean how would one ever change an opinion or review new evidence that way. Maybe our opinion needs changing. Maybe it doesn't, but shouldn't we at least be willing to mix with others who don't share the same view? For me, a forum of sycophants and mutual back slappers would be tedious. For others, I suppose it may offer much needed support so I'm sure people are approaching this from many different perspectives.

[BlondeBimbo]

I have no problem with healthy discussion, and people expressing their own opinions - on a number of threads it is clear that some have different opinion to myself, and would never request "removal" because they disagree with me, after all it could be me that is wrong (impossible I hear you say ). Free speech is the ability to express one’s opinions without fear of retribution. I believe the manner and tone of the postings are inappropriate for any site. It is the fact that in almost all cases any posting results in an immediate attack of insults and offensive remarks, I find THAT unacceptable, not the subject or political belief behind the remarks. I say this not because I disagree, or agree with the political statements, that bears no relationship on the manner and tone used. The real point is this, if you had a contribution to make - but you knew that the likely result is a whole shower of insults levied at you (based upon your; sex, nationality, job, etc...) - would you post it? If the answer is no, then this type of behaviour is not appropriate. BB

[heelsRus]

Isn't the purpose of this forum to unite one another on a subject where we all share very similar (if not the same) views? Political and religious debates will drive a wedge between us.

They don't have to. They _can_ help us to understand where each other comes from and why they believe or act as they do. All it takes is an understanding that others may have a valid opinion (even without all the facts) and then be willing to discuss (not yell or call names or ... ). Sometimes there nothing that can be done or said to convince the other party of your point of view. Then you have to agree to disagree and call it a draw. But this can all be done civilly.

My $0.02.

[BobHH]

There is plenty of disagreement on the various shoe types and styles, and enough heat in the form of strong opinions there, often said not as opinions but flat statements. If there is to be non-shoe political discussion, put it in it's own thread, so those interested can read and contribute.

[chris100575]

I voted for the threads to be removed. I'm pefectly happy for people to discuss whatever they like, but when it comes to launching personal attacks, and posts deliberately intended to cause offence then I'd like rid of them. One of the things I love about this board is that it's always been possible to have a debate without it deteriorating to a slanging match, something Mr Turbo doesn't seem capable of. I'm happy for him to discuss politics if that's his thing, although I would have thought a board centred around politics rather than high heels might be more to his liking to be honest. However it appears that he doesn't want discussion, he wants to pick a fight from the safety of his keyboard. It's the behaviour I feel doesn't belong, rather than the subject matter. Chris (edited for spelling)

[jim]

The interaction between JTurbo and TXT1 really has deteriorated into nothing more than a cheap pissing match and I can’t help but wonder if this forum is the best place for that to take place. It is said the best way to counter obnoxious speech is with more speech and persuasion, not coercion is the solution, so perhaps a quite word in the right ear may be in order. jim

[TXT-1]

The interaction between JTurbo and TXT1 really has deteriorated into nothing more than a cheap pissing match

Yeah it had... but no point flogging a dead horse...

having High Functioning Autisim I sometimes take things a little TOO far...

like "The Iron Maiden" (see "TXT-1's 400th Post") - it would have been a good farm hack - but I "HAD" to have it straighter than when I got it! - Then again having all the straight panels on It almost prevents that them from growing legs if I need 'em! :-D

<<<<Back to the subject at hand>>>

I don't really like political (or religious) disscussions, because sometimes I find it hard to word what I say, So when I am in a forum like this where one duscusses politics or religion occasionally not everyone might get (or want to get) what I'm trying to say.

so I come out soundling like a smartarse... which I am not!

I appologize if I have annoyed/offended anyone.

P.S heated "debates" like J-Turbo2002's posts are anything BUT "debates"and as such - have NO place here at HHplace!

later,

TXT-1

[dr1819]

It all becomes very boring if people agree and unite all the time though, doesn't it? I mean how would one ever change an opinion or review new evidence that way. Maybe our opinion needs changing. Maybe it doesn't, but shouldn't we at least be willing to mix with others who don't share the same view? For me, a forum of sycophants and mutual back slappers would be tedious. For others, I suppose it may offer much needed support so I'm sure people are approaching this from many different perspectives.

Yah, Firefox, and ditto! Life where everyone syncs with everyone else is not only boring, it's debasing, demeaning, and counterproductive. God never meant for man/womankind to exist in utopia. It's only through challanges that we rise to the occasion, that we're at our best.

Thank you for holding to the high ground, Firefox, which is indeed difficult, walking among all those rocks while wearing heels!

[dr1819]

Hey, TXT-1, didn't know you had high functioning autism. That puts a slightly different spin on things. Thankfully, you're aware of it, the benefits and the detractors. The rest of us will have to study up so that we're able to treat you and the other several million individuals with "disorders" as the human beings you (we) are. Yes, we, as I'm one of the several million who're not "normal" with respect to societal norms. Try to pick me out of a crowd, however, and you'd have a very difficult time!

[azraelle]

I voted for keeping it, if for no other reason than it gives the obnoxious and/or truly bigoted a way of inadvertantly "outing" themselves in front of the rest of us. If one were to severely edit the thread in question so as to remove the name-calling, and leave just the arguments for and against, it would be an informative discussion. Should be J-Turbo's pennance, and he might learn a thing or two about the difference, but he probably couldn't be persuaded, even now, that it should be done, much less that he has a problem that he should rectify. Not that I am completely innocent either, you understand.

[Shafted]

I think locking of threads that are getting into the personal attack area would be a good thing, but leave them posted as an example of how not to behave.

[TXT-1]

I appologize if it's off topic but J-Turbo2002 has been flaunting the forum rules:

here a snippet of info taken from the posting guidelines:

Jenny wrote:

NOT ALLOWED:

Blatantly Sexist, Racist, Degrading, or Defamatory posts. Disrespect of anyones sexuality or Race.

which I think Mr Turbo has violated... I have read ALL 21 pages of his posts: (roughly 400+ posts) about 3 posts - of 21 pages he didn't put down someone or call them names...

Azraelle wrote:

I voted for keeping it, if for no other reason than it gives the obnoxious and/or truly bigoted a way of inadvertantly "outing" themselves in front of the rest of us.

someone famously said "Give someone enough rope, and they might hang Themselves with it!"

later,

TXT-1

[Dr. Shoe]

What Jturbo does cannot be described as debate. All he does is rubbish anyone who does not agree with him. I can remember him saying some time ago that there were huge stock piles of WMDs in Iraq, I can remember him saying that oil prices would not rise as a result of an invasion and I can remember him saying that an invasion would root out AlQaida and end their terrorism. Unfortunately history has proved him wrong. But why did he say these things? Because he was told this by his president. Now, he says that he is an intelligent man and judging by the lucidity of his posts I would say that that is probably true BUT boy is he gullible! If GWB told him the sky was pink he'd probably believe it! I've got nothing against the guy personally and he does talk sense sometimes but why can he not just agree to differ and leave it at that. Surely the whole point of debate is to promote your own views, listen to other peoples' and perhaps find a common ground on which both parties agree. JT does not do this, all he does is try to bully people into accepting his opinion as their own- sorry mate that doesn't work here. I voted to delete posts. I don't want to see all posts deleted or for him to be banned from the board. Only the offensive posts should be deleted. Name calling and personal attacks on a forum or by Email is just as bad as if it was over the phone or face to face. It can lead to depression and anxiety, loss of self confidence and can affect your whole performance at home and at work.

[Skirted-UK]

There has got to be something more interesting to debate on this forum beside's George Bush ? Its all very sad!

[Firefox]

The thing which puzzles me is why people even bother replying to Mr Turbo. It is the same few people each time who rise to the occasion. I gave up replying to him two years ago when I realised his true nature. Since other people do reply and have been doing so for several years, I can only assume that they enjoy "arguing" with him, and I'm not out to spoil anyone's fun, if that's one of the things they get from the board. However, the tone of the threads recently has caused several people that are not involved to complain, so that's why the situation has to be reviewed.

[flavio]

I voted for removing the posts because I just think they're off-topic! The forum is a way to organize people ideas about subjects from all over the world. Someone can say that removing posts can be avoiding the freedom of speech, but HEY! Posting off-topics is not freedom, is taking the freedom of other people who wants to deal in a specific subject. I was in a NICE topic about shoes that was destroyed in a discussion between republicans and democrats. Another thing, not everybody (I think the majority) in the forum is from USA. The forum is international. I have a suggestion taken from other forum I like to post: to create a new area just for "any subject". It works well and there could be a place for that kind of discussion. Well, my opinion and a sugestion... thanks Firefox for the pool.

[hoverfly]

What we have here is failure to communicate............. I go away for five days and I miss all the excitement!! Any way JT has been well behaved compared to some here. What I can't under stand why people just don't stop replying to JT's comments and discussions? Personally it's not JT being the problem it's every one else. There for those who complain, they them selves demonstrate their own behavior should be the one's to be warned and if need suspended form the board. There is no reasoned why the people who are offended could simply leave the thread alone. Simply in real life terms SHUT MOUTH AND WALK A WAY!! As a mater of fact learn how to be a politician. People with different options and values will not agree or will win a argument. As a mater of fact it's all about compromising like it or not. People, this part is what is called a Democracy. That's why there are Republicans, Democrats and those who are in between. This is a great freedom, but if emotions get to much in the way, then those who complain and bitch on how offended they are need to grow up. Because JT will have the upper hand on you all the time, there for he wins. I voted to keep these threads, FF I think the poll is B.S. it should not halved been even been started because now you are in a jam between public option and maintaining an important value of freedoms shared to the rest of the world on this board. Personally somebody needs to slap you up side of your head for this one. Shame on you........

[Firefox]

I have a suggestion taken from other forum I like to post: to create a new area just for "any subject". It works well and there could be a place for that kind of discussion.

Thanks for the sugestion Flavio. We already have a forum called general non shoe fashion discussion which I hope will meet the purpose you spoke of.

If a thread you are posting in is being spoilt by off topic argument, and a moderator has not spotted it yet, please send a private message to the moderator and they will sort it out for you.

[Dr. Shoe]

All I do is to express my opinion and then leave it at that unless someone else has obviously misunderstood me. My view is, if somone wants me to think they're an asshole that's their problem not mine. I'm not going to try and convince them that they are not an asshole and if I don't descend to their level there is no legitimate way they can think I'm one!

[sendra45]

The thing which puzzles me is why people even bother replying to Mr Turbo. It is the same few people each time who rise to the occasion. I gave up replying to him two years ago when I realised his true nature.

Since other people do reply and have been doing so for several years, I can only assume that they enjoy "arguing" with him, and I'm not out to spoil anyone's fun, if that's one of the things they get from the board.

However, the tone of the threads recently has caused several people that are not involved to complain, so that's why the situation has to be reviewed.

Whilst I have avoided any real replying some time ago and now just tried to level with him on a heel/forum level, life is easy.

lets stick to heels, ditch any other crap and get on with the real reason we joined this forum.

Nigel

[Francis]

Whilst I am a great believer in free speech and expression of one's self, there has to be a line drawn when an individual crosses the line and becomes a nuisance, whether that be to some or all. Yes, we do have some that bypass the offending areas and happily go on to read only what interests them and fair play to them. But, in this case I find the offender is flouting the integrity of the board by purposely goading people into a 'pissing match'. I'm pretty sure that as soon as someone says a word that he deems deragotary to his president, a one George W Bush, he immediately jumps onto his soapbox to try and promote the virtues of the man. Again, a fun thread that was intended to be have been just that, FUN, was immediately attacked by him and started a name calling session to which there was no provocation save that which exists only in his mind. If the search in question had brought up Blair, it would still have been posted as it would have promoted the fun factor to which we were aspiring. Instead we have a personal vendetta brought on by the rantings of a socially deluded individual who refuses to see a point of view different than his own. I have voted to remove the offending threads and the user to be cautioned. However, there are others who are responsible for egging him on into continuing his mantra of self proclamation as the sole provider of enlightenment of his president. Is he being paid by Bush for this? Maybe he should save he energies into being a slightly more productive member of society instead of wasting his and others time with the unwarranted abuse that he obviously enjoys posting. I refuse to answer his posts other to to say "face, bothered, bothered, face, look I ain't bothered" Give the troll a wide berth and if you can't think of anything to say that he can't retaliate against, then don't reply to him. Doesn't mean you have to bow down and praise him and agree with what he has to say, but argue your point with the specifics and not degenerate to name calling if you feel you are losing the argument. It does appear that the user is quite intelligent, but his spoutings of what one man has done compared to 99% of the population is no indicator that the man knows what he is doing. The user is clearly locked into his own world and doesn't like anything that conflicts with what he calls 'his domain'. No taint may foul. Avoid this user unless you have a valid point. But, this user must also stop interfering with a thread just because GW Bush is mentioned in a possibly negative light. I'm going to stop now before I have the rest of my brain wake up and really labour the point.

[Firefox]

Ok I'll stick with the wishes of the majority and remove the threads. It looks like Mr Turbo is leaving so perhaps the situation will calm down a little.