Seen out and About

[CrushedVamp]

My view on fashion is convoluted because it is ironically so simple: who gives a flying flip about what gender it is supposed to be for if its what you want to wear?

I wear leggings because they are warm and comfortable compared to sweatpants or long johns. And I think it is great that guys are wearing high heels because they were originally men's fashions. I don't care that women wear them now, but I would love to see it go back to where it is common place for men to also wear them.

I really cannot define it, but I just like seeing outfits that are well thought out and coordinate well. I can't define it, but I know when I see it. 

[Shyheels]

I'd love to see a return to that too, but once something has become "feminine" it seems to be forever out of bounds to all but a very small percentage of men. 

[mlroseplant]

Ah, like the belly button piercing, for example. It seems that there was some video back in the 80s, during the MTV times, whose popularity instantly made that particular piercing a female-only thing forever.

To put forth an unpopular opinion, which seems to be a thing on social media at the moment, so I'll bring it here: We like to say heels were invented by men for men, and while that's technically true, nobody was wearing what I consider "real" heels until the 1950s. Even King Louis XIV, whom many people like to look to for inspiration, did not wear "real" heels. At least not in that famous painting. The Persian cavalry did not wear "real" heels, they were for utility. The point is twofold: Firstly, what we are talking about centuries ago is fundamentally a different animal than what we have today, and second, it kind of doesn't matter anyway, because they are firmly entrenched in the worldwide psyche as being feminine, and it's going to be damn near impossible to get them back.

There is one hope, though. Long hair and earrings. We did get those back from the girls, so maybe high heels are simply unlikely, rather than impossible.

[Shyheels]

If you look at King Charles II’s coronation portrait he’s wearing real heels - they look to be about four inches. And at 6’1” he didn’t need the extra height. And the earlier Persian cavalrymen, while they  were not wearing towering heels - about 2 to 2.5” - they looked like what we would say today were very feminine ankle boots.

And bear in mind that when heels were in vogue for men, men were also wearing silk stockings, lace and bright colours, They all went together. I think it was real enough by our standards 

[mlroseplant]

Haha, I am so one-dimensional at times! I knew it in the back of my mind, but hadn't considered it in ages. That is, to pay attention to something besides the shoes. Yeah, men, or at least men of a certain socioeconomic class, were quite the peacocks, weren't they? Yeah, we're not getting that back, and I'm not sure we want that back, at least not all of it. Had the technology existed at the time, I suppose those guys would have worn stilettos.

[Shyheels]

Yes! It was WWII metallurgical advances that created slender steel rods of sufficient strength to make stilettos a viable proposition. The idea of stilettos had been around since the 20s but were impractical - the heels couldn’t be made strong enough. Roger Vivier introduced what we know as the stiletto in 1953 and they caught on quickly.

Ive no doubt that is the peacocks at the Sun Kings court could fave worn stilettos, they would have!

[CrushedVamp]

The only "heels" I know of today that is accepted in footwear for men in general terms is the "Logger Boots" that have a taller heel to them. I wore those for years, and probably still would if it was not for most having steel toes and being lace-ups. I have to wear safety toes, but they have to be composite and not steel because of the high voltage I work with, and the specific grounding situations inside substations. As for laces, I have just got accustomed to Sketchers slips in for sport, casual and work wear.

It is interesting about the history of heels though and how it came about. You are right though, in fashion once something is given the stigma of feminine it is hard to get back.

I do have another one though: leggings. They are slowly being adopted by men and women. It is more of jock wear then general acceptance but considered "unisex" now.

[Shyheels]

Cowboy boots have heels, but those have their own particular following. But they do have heels. Although I like chunky heeled boots, I’m not a fan but very much prefer the more feminine styles 

[mlroseplant]

I have some actual out-and-about news, and I have a picture. I didn't intend to have a picture, but when I sent a friend of mine a picture of my son playing with his jazz band, he wrote back to me, "Whose disembodied ankle do you suppose that might be in the far right corner? Betcha it's my beloved Brother's!" Meaning me. I could not figure out what in the heck he was talking about for a while, and then I remembered I had cropped the photo right after I sent it to him in order to get rid of the director's backside, which also got rid of the ankle and sandal.

Of course, it wasn't me, why would I be up on the stage? Somehow I think my presence there as an adult would disqualify them from the competition. Anyway, I finally figured out what I had done, and restored it to the original. As it turns out, the young lady in question plays the bass trombone, and my son didn't immediately say something negative about her, so I figure she must be OK. The band uniform is all black with a splash of color. All of the boys choose to do this with a necktie, but many of the girls choose to wear somewhat unusual shoes. In this girl's case, her splash of color was these shiny pink sandals.

I approached this girl after their performance and told her that I thought her shoes were really cool. She actually took it quite gracefully and naturally, which surprised me a bit. I think it helped that I was wearing heels myself, and also that her mother was standing right beside her at the time. I purposefully kept our conversation shorter than 15 seconds, but it might have gone longer if I hadn't stepped away. The sandals had a squared-off toe, which I'm not fond of, and oval shaped heels, which I'm also not fond of. I would estimate they were 3-3 1/4" in height, no platform. Not bad for this day and age!

[CrushedVamp]

Good for you @mlroseplant

I think it is so good to give the younger generation compliments. They get so many negative ones now, to the point where they now say a high schooler has the stress levels of a graduate student of 20 years ago.

As a father of daughters I always tried to encourage them to dress nicely and at times insisted on it. And of course their mother also dresses nice which hopefully will show them that dressing nice is important in life.

That is nice though that you complimented her and in a real, complementary way and one that was not creepy. I think today where encouragement is so often lacking that when it is done, it is ten times more powerful then the suggestions to dress like a slob.

[mlroseplant]

Haha, I only do it in the name of promoting high heels! I did not really introduce myself, but thinking about it in retrospect, the girl most likely already knew who I was. I mean, how many others dads show up to every band event wearing heels? Now, if only I could get my son to have a middle ground in his own style. It's either ratty t-shirt and jeans or suit and tie. And only the suit and tie when he is forced.

[Shyheels]

Big travel day today - Manchester to London to Leeds (and back to my boat) saw many a block heeled boot - from 2.5” to 3.5” but what surprised me was in Manchester I saw several quite high - 4” to 4.5” stilettos, both boots and pumps. And worn by people who knew how to walk gracefully in them. Their ages varied from about 30 to mid fifties.

it’s been quite a while since I’d seen people wearing high stilettos.

[pebblesf]

1 hour ago, Shyheels said:

Big travel day today - Manchester to London to Leeds (and back to my boat) saw many a block heeled boot - from 2.5” to 3.5” but what surprised me was in Manchester I saw several quite high - 4” to 4.5” stilettos, both boots and pumps. And worn by people who knew how to walk gracefully in them. Their ages varied from about 30 to mid fifties.

it’s been quite a while since I’d seen people wearing high stilettos.

great news indeed

[CrushedVamp]

On 2/21/2025 at 3:46 PM, Shyheels said:

Big travel day today - Manchester to London to Leeds (and back to my boat) saw many a block heeled boot - from 2.5” to 3.5” but what surprised me was in Manchester I saw several quite high - 4” to 4.5” stilettos, both boots and pumps. And worn by people who knew how to walk gracefully in them. Their ages varied from about 30 to mid fifties.

it’s been quite a while since I’d seen people wearing high stilettos.

Nice to hear!

It seems it takes about a year for fashion to arrive from Europe to where I live in the United States.

I remember being over in Ireland in 2008 for the first time, and a lover of the miniskirt, I saw a woman wearing and ultra-miniskirt but with leggings worn under it to tame the audacity of it. It just caught my attention, but a year later I noticed the same "new look" over where I live. Whether you love or hated the fashion trend, it just verified what I saw over the years, a year delay in fashion trends.

[Shyheels]

Over here it’s mainly in the north that you see heels - Manchester, Leeds, York - not so much in London. I’m sure there is some demographic significance but I don’t know just what it might ge

[mlroseplant]

That brings back up a very interesting subject once again. Why do women still wear high heels? I think increasingly, it's all an illusion of what used to be fashionable in years past. It is certainly not required anymore, but even young girls hold on to this image of a high heeled life. It's just that very few of us are actually willing to do what it takes to actually live it.

I went to school with a girl who wore heels regularly. In fact, she was notable for wearing higher heels than practically everybody else. She, unlike me, got a job right out of college in the financial sector, and she's still there to this day, not far from retirement. She recounted at some point that in her first years at the job, she was expected to show up every day in a skirt and heels and hosiery. That's how she dressed a couple of times a week in high school by choice, so I'm thinking, "What's wrong with that?" As it turns out, as work dress codes have relaxed, she gladly ditched all of that stuff, and now brags about how she hasn't worn heels in years. This tells me that there is simply a fundamental difference between how we view high heels and how the general populace view them.

[Shyheels]

I think a lot of women who wear them, wear them as we do, for the aesthetic. There were always those who wore them because they liked them, enjoyed wearing them, for the emotional and physical lift - and not merely because heels were expected in certain environments. They will continue to wear them, long after dress codes became more relaxed.

The same with neckties. There are those who will always wear a tie. The writer Tom Wolfe was one. I remember reading some quote by him that it would be unthinkable not to be wearing a tie. Stephen Fry is another. He wrote quite an entertaining book about his love of ties starting from when he was a very young boy.

We are more conscious of wearing heels because we are not supposed to be wearing them in the first place according to the dictates of society, but take that away, and our view of heels is probably not that dissimilar to those of female high heel aficionados.

[Puffer]

On 3/1/2025 at 10:15 AM, Shyheels said:

Over here it’s mainly in the north that you see heels - Manchester, Leeds, York - not so much in London. I’m sure there is some demographic significance but I don’t know just what it might ge

I have made the point before that women in the northern part of England and in Scotland are often rather shorter than their southern sisters and heels help to add the extra height they seem to desire.   Moreover, there seems to be a different attitude to the desirable 'look' in the north, whereby women make much more of an effort to 'dress up', almost regardless of the occasion.   There is a 'bravery' element too - typically seen in Newcastle etc - where bare feet in high-heeled sandals, skimpy dresses and no coat is considered the way to dress for an evening out, even in bitterly cold or snowy weather.

On 3/1/2025 at 2:12 PM, Shyheels said:

I think a lot of women who wear them, wear them as we do, for the aesthetic. There were always those who wore them because they liked them, enjoyed wearing them, for the emotional and physical lift - and not merely because heels were expected in certain environments. They will continue to wear them, long after dress codes became more relaxed.

The same with neckties. There are those who will always wear a tie. The writer Tom Wolfe was one. I remember reading some quote by him that it would be unthinkable not to be wearing a tie. Stephen Fry is another. He wrote quite an entertaining book about his love of ties starting from when he was a very young boy.

We are more conscious of wearing heels because we are not supposed to be wearing them in the first place according to the dictates of society, but take that away, and our view of heels is probably not that dissimilar to those of female high heel aficionados.

What is worn by either sex in a given situation has long been inluenced by dress codes, explicit or otherwise.   But, as the world moves to a more casual way of doing things, at work and at play, dress codes have been eroded if not entirely dismantled.   Although, in the UK, the suit and tie is still 'expected' of men in most white-collar environments, it is increasingly the case that women are no longer obliged to wear the skirt-suit and heels that would have been regarded as obligatory in many occupations, particularly those considered 'professional'.    The result is a plethora of increasingly-casual 'middle of the road' dressing - but people forget that those staying in the middle of the road tend to get run over.

From observation, the position in the US appears to be more polarised - either fairly strict formality in dress codes in many situations or 'anything goes' - but correct me if I'm wrong.    I can't but help referring to the shocking Trump/Zelensky meeting last week, when Mr Z was roundly criticised for daring to enter the White House in other than a suit (for reasons well-known whilst his country is at war) - his primed journalist attacker being apparently attired in a bright blue blazer!   A cheap shot from cheap people.   Would they have dared to challenge an Arabian or African leader wearing tradional robes - or a Scotsman in a kilt for that matter?

[Shyheels]

Yes Zelenskyy was set up. That was deliberate. Nobody said a word about Elon Musk showing up to a cabinet meeting in a T-shirt and wearing a baseball cap!  Zelenskyy dresses as he does for a very specific and symbolic purpose as anyone knows who’s read a newspaper in the past three years. Musk wore what he wore because he is a boor - note the spelling, I am not referring to his being South African 

 

I should add that I’m not trying to be political here, just making observations on fashion rules and hypocrisy. All other things being equal, the fact that someone - anyone - does not conform by wearing a suit should not be an issue. 
 

wearing a baseball cap (indoors!) and T-shirt to a cabinet meeting is disrespectful. That does not even make the grade as “smart casual”

Edited Monday at 03:44 PM by Shyheels

[pebblesf]

5 hours ago, Puffer said:

I have made the point before that women in the northern part of England and in Scotland are often rather shorter than their southern sisters and heels help to add the extra height they seem to desire.   Moreover, there seems to be a different attitude to the desirable 'look' in the north, whereby women make much more of an effort to 'dress up', almost regardless of the occasion.   There is a 'bravery' element too - typically seen in Newcastle etc - where bare feet in high-heeled sandals, skimpy dresses and no coat is considered the way to dress for an evening out, even in bitterly cold or snowy weather.

What is worn by either sex in a given situation has long been inluenced by dress codes, explicit or otherwise.   But, as the world moves to a more casual way of doing things, at work and at play, dress codes have been eroded if not entirely dismantled.   Although, in the UK, the suit and tie is still 'expected' of men in most white-collar environments, it is increasingly the case that women are no longer obliged to wear the skirt-suit and heels that would have been regarded as obligatory in many occupations, particularly those considered 'professional'.    The result is a plethora of increasingly-casual 'middle of the road' dressing - but people forget that those staying in the middle of the road tend to get run over.

From observation, the position in the US appears to be more polarised - either fairly strict formality in dress codes in many situations or 'anything goes' - but correct me if I'm wrong.    I can't but help referring to the shocking Trump/Zelensky meeting last week, when Mr Z was roundly criticised for daring to enter the White House in other than a suit (for reasons well-known whilst his country is at war) - his primed journalist attacker being apparently attired in a bright blue blazer!   A cheap shot from cheap people.   Would they have dared to challenge an Arabian or African leader wearing tradional robes - or a Scotsman in a kilt for that matter?

Absolutely!  Right now, I am ashamed of our country and embarrassed to be a US citizen.  My apologies to the rest of the civilized world

On 2/5/2025 at 1:34 AM, CrushedVamp said:

The only "heels" I know of today that is accepted in footwear for men in general terms is the "Logger Boots" that have a taller heel to them. I wore those for years, and probably still would if it was not for most having steel toes and being lace-ups. I have to wear safety toes, but they have to be composite and not steel because of the high voltage I work with, and the specific grounding situations inside substations. As for laces, I have just got accustomed to Sketchers slips in for sport, casual and work wear.

It is interesting about the history of heels though and how it came about. You are right though, in fashion once something is given the stigma of feminine it is hard to get back.

I do have another one though: leggings. They are slowly being adopted by men and women. It is more of jock wear then general acceptance but considered "unisex" now.

I think you have hit on something.  "Jock wear".  Needless to say, leggings can show off hard work in the gym, and why not!  

[CrushedVamp]

Myself, I do not care what people wear for the most part. I say "most part" because if I am in a bad part of town, and the only other person on the street is wearing all black, with a hoodie and it drawn over their heads, yes, I'm flipping my firearm off safety. That is not judging, but being situationally aware and prepared. If nothing happens, so be it, but how a person is dressed can be indicative of future behavior!

But I have seen the opposite. Some of it is region and certain society, but I remember being in church and a some were upset that this guy came in and did not remove his ball cap. They seemed surprised, and I was like, "just be glad the guy came. who cares that he wore a hat through the whole service".

But just so everyone knows, if we are going to talk politics, I won't be on this forum at all. There are plenty of forums where people can do that without stating rhetoric on her no matter what side their perspective is from. I have not read a newspaper in a decade, and chose to read books instead of watching television for the past seven years, and generally like to be blissfully unaware of things I cannot change. 

[Shyheels]

Wearing hats indoors in some instances is all right - in public places such as railway stations and airports etc. Wearing hats in church or offices is really not appropriate.

I take your point that having the chap show up in church at all is a good thing, and he shouldn’t be dissuaded but if he continues to show up wearing a hat throughout the service, perhaps somebody could discretely let him in on the rule of etiquette. He may not even know. 

[at9]

1 hour ago, Shyheels said:

Wearing hats indoors in some instances is all right - in public places such as railway stations and airports etc. Wearing hats in church.....

Depends on your particular choice of deity. In a mosque it is customary for men to cover their heads and more or less compulsory for women. In a synagogue head coverings are compulsory for men and often customary for women. I have no idea about other religions.

I think there is some variation in custom between different christian sects.

Edited Tuesday at 12:48 PM by at9

[Shyheels]

There’s no Christian denomination of which I am aware that sanctions wearing hats in church - by men at least. Women are certainly excused their Easter bonnets. 

The headgear you mention being worn in a synagogue is almost certainly not a baseball cap - a yarmulke, I believe, is what is worn.

i have been in mosques in Africa, the Near East and Indonesia and while I certainly had to remove my shoes, I was never asked to don any headgear. And I can’t imagine them specifying baseball caps.

there is an amusing scene in that mobster TV show, The Sopranos, where some young guy is wearing a baseball cap in a nice restaurant where Tony Soprano is having dinner. Tony has to straighten him out …

Edited Tuesday at 02:08 PM by Shyheels

[pebblesf]

7 hours ago, CrushedVamp said:

Myself, I do not care what people wear for the most part. I say "most part" because if I am in a bad part of town, and the only other person on the street is wearing all black, with a hoodie and it drawn over their heads, yes, I'm flipping my firearm off safety. That is not judging, but being situationally aware and prepared. If nothing happens, so be it, but how a person is dressed can be indicative of future behavior!

But I have seen the opposite. Some of it is region and certain society, but I remember being in church and a some were upset that this guy came in and did not remove his ball cap. They seemed surprised, and I was like, "just be glad the guy came. who cares that he wore a hat through the whole service".

But just so everyone knows, if we are going to talk politics, I won't be on this forum at all. There are plenty of forums where people can do that without stating rhetoric on her no matter what side their perspective is from. I have not read a newspaper in a decade, and chose to read books instead of watching television for the past seven years, and generally like to be blissfully unaware of things I cannot change. 

It is like you say, "be thankful he came to church!"

[Puffer]

On 3/3/2025 at 3:11 PM, pebblesf said:

Absolutely!  Right now, I am ashamed of our country and embarrassed to be a US citizen.  My apologies to the rest of the civilized world

...

I could perhaps be forgiven for suggesting that the words 'the rest of' are inappropriate in the present context.   (Your personal apology appreciated.)

13 hours ago, CrushedVamp said:

... I remember being in church and a some were upset that this guy came in and did not remove his ball cap. They seemed surprised, and I was like, "just be glad the guy came. who cares that he wore a hat through the whole service". ...

I was at a family friend's wedding a couple of years ago, in church in a modest country town.   The bridegroom's father, with the general appearance of an artisan or farmer, was tidily dressed (in a suit!) but wore a 'flat cap' both in church and at the reception afterwards (in a fairly grand country house).   Frankly, I thought that disrespectful to both venues and to those present, and the bride's father (whom I know well) did not seem pleased, although too polite to comment.

[Shyheels]

In my Instagram feed this morning - why, I do not know - was a story about a woman who was 6’9”, with footage of her in a grocery story. She was quite attractive, obviously very tall, but clearly quite okay with it because she was also in heels - genuine heels too, probably 3.5” maybe even 4”.

in other non-heel sightings, I encountered a steam powered narrowboat this morning as well. 

[CrushedVamp]

On 3/4/2025 at 9:05 AM, Shyheels said:

There’s no Christian denomination of which I am aware that sanctions wearing hats in church - by men at least. Women are certainly excused their Easter bonnets. 

You are right, and that is because it specifically says for men to not wear hats, and this it is okay for women too, directly in the bible.

Some today say that it was for very specific reasons why AT THAT TIME the bible says to do that, and so they dismiss it because they feel it is not relevant today, while others strictly abide by it still. I am not sure because there are other specifics on how to dress that are ignored routinely. An example is make-up, as it says for a lady not to wear it. Well, back in that day, the oldest profession advertised what they did by wearing bright red lipstick so I could see where it might be forbidden to be worn, but today it is general practice, so seeing a woman wearing lipstick does not mean she is a prostitute.

Myself, I just feel do as you are lead. Myself I ALWAYS wear a hat, but not in church, taking it off at the start, but I have seen others wear it all through the service. I have seen others take it off just during prayer. That is up to them though as I can't judge them, my life is hardly perfect...

[Shyheels]

Yes there are lots of changes over the years - in Victorian times a woman who wore make up was a painted woman and well into the 20th century a woman could be arrested in parts of America for wearing trousers. But the stricture against wearing hats indoors has been around a long time and is still widely observed and while I am all for fashion freedom and not being a slave to arbitrary customs and rules, I do think removing one’s hat in church, or someone’s home etc is a nice mark of respect

[5150PLB1]

The US military also has its rules regarding hats. The Army and Air Force require you to salute an officer or superior officer indoors weather you are wearing a hat or not. The Navy on the other hand requires you not to salute indoors or while not wearing a hat. The Navy also required you to remove your hat when entering a sickbay or medical facility.