Ozzard Posted December 8, 2008 Posted December 8, 2008 Parts of the admin policy on here are sufficiently at odds with my own views on how a forum should work that I'm no longer willing to stay. It's not my forum, so I'll not try (again) to change that policy - I'll merely lower my blood pressure by not coming here. All the best to the admins. Keep maintaining and policing these forums in the manner you think is appropriate. I hope you end up with a well-maintained site with a vibrant and tolerant user community. I've now left HHPlace. Feel free to use the means listed in my profile if you wish to contact me.
Tech Posted December 8, 2008 Posted December 8, 2008 Parts of the admin policy on here are sufficiently at odds with my own views on how a forum should work that I'm no longer willing to stay. It's not my forum, so I'll not try (again) to change that policy - I'll merely lower my blood pressure by not coming here. All the best to the admins. Keep maintaining and policing these forums in the manner you think is appropriate. I hope you end up with a well-maintained site with a vibrant and tolerant user community. Rather than just "throwing in the towel" and claiming that the website rules or website team are not in sync with your own views, how about at least telling some of the team what your views are first? If not, then I'm sure we all wish you the best of luck in whatever you decide to do. Heels for Men // Legwear Fashion // HHPlace Guidelines If something doesn't look right, please report the content ASAP!
Ozzard Posted December 8, 2008 Author Posted December 8, 2008 Rather than just "throwing in the towel" and claiming that the website rules or website team are not in sync with your own views, how about at least telling some of the team what your views are first? We had that discussion by PM on/around 18th Aug 2008 last time you elected to move threads around without warning - if you look through your PMs from that time, you'll find the discussion. If you now wish to have that discussion in the open, feel free - but it would be nice to have a *discussion*. Instead, I rather expect to see you slap yet another big red THREAD CLOSED marker on this thread when it turns into another public criticism of your strategy on moving threads :-(. You're no longer willing to receive PMs, or this would have been a PM. I've now left HHPlace. Feel free to use the means listed in my profile if you wish to contact me.
Stilettoscot Posted December 8, 2008 Posted December 8, 2008 OK, I have to step in and say my 2 pence... I am a member of quite a few forums, including 2 where I have over 30,000 posts each. I am a mod at 2 of them, admin at a third. So, I have some experience in forums and how they do/should relate to us. The ONE thing everyone has to realise is you are reading someone's messages from a 2-dimentional standpoint. Without the third dimention, you have no knowledge of the nuances in which the poster has written his message, meaning, a lot gets lost in any translation. ALSO, Admin have a tough job (I know). Creating a place where everyone feels part of the "community" is tough. BUT, the members have to take part in this as well. Members have to take responsibility in how they use the community, just like in real life. In real life, there are people/places/things that you cannot change and don't like (or just don't jive with your views). That is OK in itself. HOW a member of any community deals with this fact will determine how effective the community is to them. Take you work environ. Unless you're the owner, chances are good you can find a page or two of things you don't like about the place, including people there. It's natural. 2 options are then presented to you: 1. You can quit the job (or any other community part of your life), and go elsewhere trying to find the perfect place. 2. Ignore and move past the things you can't change in a positive manner, and continue to be part of the community in other aspects of it. The pro's and con's are obvious is both scenarios. It then boils down to your decision... Good luck in whatever you choose, but as for me, I like this place too much to let things I may not agree with spoil it. I just move past the things I may not agree with and concentrate on the things I do!! Walking in ultra-highs because it's exciting...and it is!!
Tech Posted December 8, 2008 Posted December 8, 2008 Does it HAVE to be directed at just me? I'm not the only person on the team. I dont keep PM's because of the endless stream of PM's we send between us on the team, and I've stopped accepting PM's at the moment from anybody other than other team members purely because its not fair to accept PM's, then take 3 or more weeks to get back to it and reply. I'm already putting aside paid work just to deal with this and heelma and patentheels problems. No matter what forum you go to buddy, people are volunteers, they do these things in their "spare" time. Thus if time is not spare, things have to be rationalised. Shyguy said it perfectly when he said: I wonder how many posts we'd get to moderate if we ask for the users permission before we actually changed anything? We'd end up so tied up in arguments just like this one that all the spam and crap we deal with would build up to make this site unusable. This is another reasonw hy I changed my own username, purely because so many members are directing absolutely EVERYTHING at me, as if I'm the only person here, and are also throwing endless accusations right at me for everything, even for simple moderation housekeeping. Thus, I switched off my PM's, and will probably have yet another late night dealing with such simple things that grown adults cant work out for themselves! Heels for Men // Legwear Fashion // HHPlace Guidelines If something doesn't look right, please report the content ASAP!
heelma Posted December 8, 2008 Posted December 8, 2008 We had that discussion by PM on/around 18th Aug 2008 last time you elected to move threads around without warning - if you look through your PMs from that time, you'll find the discussion. If you now wish to have that discussion in the open, feel free - but it would be nice to have a *discussion*. Instead, I rather expect to see you slap yet another big red THREAD CLOSED marker on this thread when it turns into another public criticism of your strategy on moving threads :-(. If I could place more than one "thanks" to a post, this would get three of them from me. I am glad there are other people here besides me who see the same issues.
yozz Posted December 8, 2008 Posted December 8, 2008 I agree very much with stilettoscot. He has worded it rather well. You have to realize that you get something for free here that you cannot get anywhere else, unless maybe you set up your own forum. Then others will be your guests. I have been following this forum for a few years now, first only passively and later also with some contributions. What I have seen is that over time things slowly mutate till at a given point the management team pulls things back to "the original target". Sometimes people get very excited during arguments and become so excited that they post messages that they might regret if they had only waited a few hours before pressing the reply button. Sometimes it even results in people being banned without others knowing why, because the insulting messages are removed. But all the time you can know that some people have been thinking before they do these things because they also like to see a nice forum. Even if to the users it seems counterintuitive. My advise is that if you really disagree with something, wait at least 12 hours before posting a reply or a follow up. It will improve things greatly. And also try to look at things from the viewpoint of the administrators who DONATE us their time. In society they ask you at most once a year your opinion on a limited number of subjects and they make you pay lots of taxes, yet you know that you should just accept whatever the high and mighty decide and make the best of it. Try to do that here too: try to enjoy that what can be enjoyed. Y. Raise your voice. Put on some heels.
Guy N. Heels Posted December 8, 2008 Posted December 8, 2008 Parts of the admin policy on here are sufficiently at odds with my own views on how a forum should work that I'm no longer willing to stay. It's not my forum, so I'll not try (again) to change that policy - I'll merely lower my blood pressure by not coming here. All the best to the admins. Keep maintaining and policing these forums in the manner you think is appropriate. I hope you end up with a well-maintained site with a vibrant and tolerant user community. Oh Lord, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. In a perfect world we would all get along perfectly; but since we don't, I have to say that I think the mods around here are doing a great job. I think that Richie and the others have shown the patience of Job and generally done a fine job. Ozzard, I do feel badly if someone has stepped on your toes, but we all have to live by rules and if you aren't under the rules then you'll find yourself making them and, quite candidly, I don't find the turf greener on either side. Nevertheless, the mods around here have done a much better job than I could and so I think we owe 'em a vote of confidence. Still, I hope that I can spread enough oil on the waters to restore calm and get you to reconsider. I think your presence around here is important and I genuinely value every member here. But if you've gotta go then I most certainly hope that you don't burn-down any bridges in case you should decide to return at a future date. Keep on stepping, Guy N. Heels
Tech Posted December 8, 2008 Posted December 8, 2008 To Heelma, patentheel and Ozzard, what I am about to say, I will not repeat, and I can only keep my fingers crossed that this time, you ACTUALLY read what I write, and dont yet again, publicly mis-quote or accuse me of writing something that has not been written. OK, I have to step in and say my 2 pence... Scot, your well balanced and thoughtful understanding is HIGHLY appreciated. Sometimes it does take an experienced outsider to step in yet again point out the obvious, as frustration/anger can often blind people to what is being said by those in their line of fire. If I could place more than one "thanks" to a post, this would get three of them from me. I am glad there are other people here besides me who see the same issues. I would expect that, you seem to be keen on making "issues" out of things that dont even exist. Now, if we could harness this talent into renewable energy, we wouldnt even need oil at all. Scot has nailed things perfectly, but this from Yozz also smacks it right bang on the head for me: I have been following this forum for a few years now, first only passively and later also with some contributions. What I have seen is that over time things slowly mutate till at a given point the management team pulls things back to "the original target". Absolutely, this often happens due to time constraints, and the mod's discussing various threads/topics that start up and being discussed behind the scenes. But the general "jist" of what Yozz has said is perfectly desciptive of exactly what goes on here. Sometimes people get very excited during arguments and become so excited that they post messages that they might regret if they had only waited a few hours before pressing the reply button. Sometimes it even results in people being banned without others knowing why, because the insulting messages are removed. This again is something that happens A LOT here, and again due to lack of time recently, threads are getting deleted AFTER several members have posted replies in some threads that are totally un-suitable for any viewing at all, yet those members dont even bother to help out and report a post, they just post messages saying how unsuitable the thread is.. My advise is that if you really disagree with something, wait at least 12 hours before posting a reply or a follow up. It will improve things greatly. And also try to look at things from the viewpoint of the administrators who DONATE us their time. Maybe our problem is that "WE" (The team) actually care too much, thus we are spending ever increasing amounts of time dealing with things like this when we could ALL be doing far better things. Honestly, I know if I didnt give a crap, everybody would have had the finger a long time ago, but no, were still here, still putting up with crap like this in our own free time. Heels for Men // Legwear Fashion // HHPlace Guidelines If something doesn't look right, please report the content ASAP!
sendra45 Posted December 8, 2008 Posted December 8, 2008 A thought for all members and visitors. If you dont like it here, go. If you like it here, stay and enjoy, There is no need for this thread really. I would just delete the whole thing as it just brings me and I will bet a few others down. Let the guys who run this site get on with the job in hand, unless you have seen the constant stream of weird, annoying and rude members that constantly hassle the organisers of the site you have no idea how difficult it is to keep this site on target. The high heel place. Lets not go back to the dark days of little moderation:penitent:. The angels have the phonebox.
Ozzard Posted December 9, 2008 Author Posted December 9, 2008 May I drop in a few further comments? For those who can't see my face or hear my voice, please assume that I'm trying to explain politely below and to keep communication channels open and bridges un-burned. I'm not trying to point fingers at anyone else; I am merely trying to make my own position clear. I'm talking about my own beliefs here. They cannot be disproved (or proved), and thus are in the realms of metaphysics rather than science. I welcome discussion, and I refer anyone who wants to jump up and down and shout to Karl Popper's comment that while it may not be possible to have a rational conversation about metaphysics, it should at least be possible to have a reasonable discussion. I apologise if anyone feels that my earlier comments were unreasonable. Firstly, I'm well aware that it's a (very!) hard job running any form of online communication centre. I can't quote forums where I have tens of thousands of posts, as I'm simply not that prolific a poster. I can merely quote running a MUD for 18 years, running one board and being the first recruited mod on a second. I have more than zero idea of the effort it takes being on the admin/mod side of this - and the size of the inbox one gets as a result! Secondly, this isn't my site! I'm not paying for it, and I'm getting this content and functionality for free. It's not even ad-supported (for which I'm grateful). This means that I have zero say in how it's run. It's run however its owner(s) want it to be run, and that's fine by me. Forums are not democracies, nor should they be. The best ones I've seen are benevolent tyrannies, run by one or a very few people and with a user community who are aware of and agree with the board's leaders' policies. The core of the problem is that I hold a different view from the current site admins of HHPlace in one area that is dear to me: that of moving existing content around to tidy it up. That's it - our views are different. I can't prove that one approach works and the other doesn't; I have no idea whether moving content or leaving it would result in a "better" site, as I suspect it depends on who you ask. I happen to prefer existing content staying in the same place, and find content being moved "under my feet" very difficult. Again: because I don't own the site, this is my problem, not the site admins' problem. Note that I have no problem at all with content being deleted that is inappropriate for the board - although I may have a fairly liberal interpretation of "inappropriate". This lot means that when a bunch of existing threads get moved, I get irritated. It's clear that the present admin team's view is that moving threads that start or drift off-topic is better than the alternative of keeping them where they started, and living with the drift. As a user, my choices are to accept that ("like it and stay"), or to get sufficiently irritated - for my own reasons - to move on. I'll move on. Finally, my original closing paragraph applies. I genuinely do wish the admin team, and the remaining users, all the best with this board. I've now left HHPlace. Feel free to use the means listed in my profile if you wish to contact me.
Stilettoscot Posted December 9, 2008 Posted December 9, 2008 Ozzard, Is your view on this "issue" close enough to you to not be able to get past? There's no way to simply be part of the board without being involved in that one aspect of it?? Walking in ultra-highs because it's exciting...and it is!!
Tech Posted December 9, 2008 Posted December 9, 2008 Ozzard Many thanks for the "clarification", but I really have to confess, in all my years on the internet, and dealing with forums, this truly is the very first time I've EVER encountered somebody who gets "Wound up" over threads being moved around, and things being tidied up. Especially as its just part of many websites "housekeeping", as threads grow or mutate into totally different topics, suddenly, that thread on a purchase from a store turns into a long running review/complaints about a specific store now is better off in the reviews section for example... We do try to keep similar and related content together, purely because it REALLY helps new members find specific things, avoids confusing duplicate threads that end up in different places, and threads last a lot longer when many many people have joined in, rather than 10 threads of 5 replies that look like nobody is interested, you get 1 thread with 45+ replies, and that encourages others to join in too. Its the "Empty resturant" syndrome. If a place is fairly busy, it must be worth a try to join in, but if its dead and empty, why bother if nobody else has... Anyway, that should all be obvious, but I really wouldnt know what to say to somebody who gets "irritable" at simple housekeeping, other than maybe give up using the internet, as its an ever changinging, evolving media, and everything on the web changes and updates as content grows. We do however have advert's here, but there not very noticable, which i think is why after 3 years, they still havent earned back the £600+ I invested to re-generate the website, but thats really not of any importance. Well, sadly, we cant please everybody all of the time, but we do try to please most of the members, most of the time. Heels for Men // Legwear Fashion // HHPlace Guidelines If something doesn't look right, please report the content ASAP!
Bubba136 Posted December 9, 2008 Posted December 9, 2008 Good grief, charlie brown! What's all of this discussion about? It boils down, in my opinion, to two choices. One is to express your opinion and then shut up. Two is if you don't like what's going, make like a tree and leave. Why would anyone want to stay in a venu where they don't agree with what's going on? It's your choice. But, why stick around somewhere where you're not happy? Ga,by, so long and don't take any wooden nickels. Being mentally comfortable in your own mind is the key to wearing heels in public.
vector Posted December 9, 2008 Posted December 9, 2008 Bubba136, I think we are approaching the end of times--- I agree with you. While I have to admit that I am not (and will not) be provy to all of the offense and issues encountered by the last two announced departures, it somehow strikes me as thin skinned (sorry if I offend, JMHO). Hey, it's a big planet and we all get our toes stepped on- yes, some more than others. But if this isn't to your liking, best of luck to ya on your journey. Peace!!
Ozzard Posted December 9, 2008 Author Posted December 9, 2008 What's all of this discussion about? It boils down, in my opinion, to two choices. One is to express your opinion and then shut up. Two is if you don't like what's going, make like a tree and leave. Quite. Bye. I've now left HHPlace. Feel free to use the means listed in my profile if you wish to contact me.
bladerunner Posted December 9, 2008 Posted December 9, 2008 "You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time" enough said really. I think this forum is great,its free and we get to chat on some great topics. Admin HAVE to make decisions so read the above again,i wouldnt want to deal with it,so i'm glad somebody puts the time and effort in for 'zilch' to GENERALLY keep us all happy. I just love those suede heels!!!!!
Dawn HH Posted December 13, 2008 Posted December 13, 2008 Well said, Bladerunner. I couldn't have said it any better myself. Cheers--- Dawn HH High Heeled Boots Forever!
roniheels Posted December 14, 2008 Posted December 14, 2008 OK, I have to step in and say my 2 pence... I am a member of quite a few forums, including 2 where I have over 30,000 posts each. I am a mod at 2 of them, admin at a third. So, I have some experience in forums and how they do/should relate to us. The ONE thing everyone has to realise is you are reading someone's messages from a 2-dimentional standpoint. Without the third dimention, you have no knowledge of the nuances in which the poster has written his message, meaning, a lot gets lost in any translation. ALSO, Admin have a tough job (I know). Creating a place where everyone feels part of the "community" is tough. BUT, the members have to take part in this as well. Members have to take reqposibility in how they use the community, just like in real life. In real life, there are people/places/things that you cannot change and don't like (or just don't jive with your views). That is OK in itself. HOW a member of any community deals with this fact will determine how effective the community is to them. Take you work environ. Unless you're the owner, chances are good you can find a page or two of things you don't like about the place, including people there. It's natural. 2 options are then presented to you: 1. You can quit the job (or any other community part of your life), and go elsewhere trying to find the perfect place. 2. Ignore and move past the things you can't change in a positive manner, and continue to be part of the community in other aspects of it. The pro's and con's are obvious is both scenarios. It then boils down to your decision... Good luck in whatever you choose, but as for me, I like this place too much to let things I may not agree with spoil it. I just move past the things I may not agree with and concentrate on the things I do!! Scott... As you can see by all of the "thank yous" you've received, you have hit the nail on the head. I agree with you whole heartedly. Ozzard will be missed as with anyone who has contributed to this site continuously. I am sorry to see him go and I wish him the best.
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