mlroseplant Posted January 17, 2013 Posted January 17, 2013 This is a little story that I'm going to share with my Hanoi Open University students who are studying English in Vietnam. I'm sure many of you have heard this one before, but it's always amusing. This is my version of the story from deep in my memory. I hope the Vietnamese students "get" it. There's a good chance many of them won't without further explanation. There was once a boy who grew up poor. He was the son of a farmer. Every day, he worked hard in the fields and taking care of the animals. This boy had a dream that someday, he would study at Harvard University, the most famous university in America. So he studied very hard all through high school, did very well on all the exams, and got a scholarship to Harvard. On his first day of class at Harvard, he discovered he could not find his way around campus, because he had never been to the city before, and he became quite lost. He stopped two of his fellow classmates, one the son of a rich banker, and the other the son of a rich lawyer. “Hello friend,” he asked the banker’s son. “Can you tell me where the library’s at?” “You can’t end a sentence with a preposition!” exclaimed the banker’s son. The farmer’s son tried to explain, “Well, I was just--” the banker’s son cut him off rudely, and made a snobby comment to his friend, the lawyer’s son. “You see what happens when we let riff-raff like this into our fine institution? He can’t even speak the English language properly! This sort of thing will be the ruination of Harvard.” The lawyer’s son nodded his head in agreement. The farmer’s son considered this for a moment. “OK, friend,” he replied with a confused shrug. “Have it your way, then. So where’s the library at, ASSHOLE?”
Puffer Posted January 21, 2013 Posted January 21, 2013 The story is a good one but the grammatical point is wrong - at least in good 'English' English. Ending a sentence with a preposition is not generally incorrect (the oft-repeated objection is mythical) but it is wrong when the preposition is superfluous, as here. Your sentence is, in reality: 'Can you tell me where the library is at?' and the 'at' is superfluous (although colloquial) as the sentence makes perfect sentence without it, i.e. 'Can you tell me where the library is?'. But, in a sentence such as 'Can you tell me the platform the London train is at?', the 'at' probably does add something (e.g. to emphasise that the required train is standing there, at that particular platform) and neither the preposition nor its position is objectionable. So, good luck with your teaching but please don't mislead your Vietnamese students by going overboard explaining a dubious grammatical 'rule'. Now, here is a much better way of poking fun at Harvard University (as we would all enjoy doing). A businessman alumnus invited to lecture students at Harvard about his successful career was closing his long and boring speech by pointing out that he had based his success on the name of his alma mater. 'My principles', he said, 'are "H" for honesty, "A" for ability' "R" for resolve, "V" for value ...' - at which point a student in the audience murmured to his friend, 'I'm sure glad he didn't go to the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.'.
Bubba136 Posted January 21, 2013 Posted January 21, 2013 What's with the English lessons, Puffer? I always take to heart that a large number of our members don't use English as their native language. So, there is bound to be some misuse. Gees, comments about high heels are what most of are interested in reading. Being mentally comfortable in your own mind is the key to wearing heels in public.
mlroseplant Posted January 22, 2013 Author Posted January 22, 2013 Now, here is a much better way of poking fun at Harvard University (as we would all enjoy doing). A businessman alumnus invited to lecture students at Harvard about his successful career was closing his long and boring speech by pointing out that he had based his success on the name of his alma mater. 'My principles', he said, 'are "H" for honesty, "A" for ability' "R" for resolve, "V" for value ...' - at which point a student in the audience murmured to his friend, 'I'm sure glad he didn't go to the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.'. Hahahahahahahahahaha . . . hahahahaha . . . haha . . . ha . . . ha . . . huh. . . I don't get it. On edit: Oh, oh, oh, oh, OK. You see, every American, like me, thought in his mind, "MIT." It took me a while. Sorry, I'm slow. Good one! By the way, NONE of my Viet students "got it." My Dad loved it, however. So did my 13 year old son. Life is never boring if you don't let it be boring.
Puffer Posted January 22, 2013 Posted January 22, 2013 What's with the English lessons, Puffer? I always take to heart that a large number of our members don't use English as their native language. So, there is bound to be some misuse. Gees, comments about high heels are what most of are interested in reading. Mlroseplant's posting was all about his English teaching and my reply related primarily to the specific point in that. I am sorry if the boring technical content went above your head, or anyone else's. As to 'misuse' generally, that is more evident from those whose first language is English and often clouds the readability and value of postings on our primary interest here.
SF Posted February 1, 2013 Posted February 1, 2013 Some folks "think" they have all the answers at.... "Why should girls have all the fun!!"
meganiwish Posted February 1, 2013 Posted February 1, 2013 Gees, comments about high heels are what most of are interested in reading. Maybe, but this forum is specifically for subjects other than heels. We don't want to be two dimensional, do we? By the way, Puffer, 'alumnus' and 'alma mater' in those senses are English words, so don't really need italics. And pedantry is a most pleasurable vice
Puffer Posted February 1, 2013 Posted February 1, 2013 Maybe, but this forum is specifically for subjects other than heels. We don't want to be two dimensional, do we? By the way, Puffer, 'alumnus' and 'alma mater' in those senses are English words, so don't really need italics. And pedantry is a most pleasurable vice Agreed on all counts, Megan. I was once accused by an office colleague of 'pedanticism'. I did of course point out to him that the correct word is 'pedantry'. (I sometimes wonder about the word 'otiose' - is it not itself decidedly otiose? )
meganiwish Posted February 2, 2013 Posted February 2, 2013 Agreed on all counts, Megan. I was once accused by an office colleague of 'pedanticism'. I did of course point out to him that the correct word is 'pedantry'. (I sometimes wonder about the word 'otiose' - is it not itself decidedly otiose? ) Thank you, Puffer. You see, chaps, it's not so hard to be friendly. I'm delighted to meet another pedantrist . Otiose? Well, one of the language universals is self reference, so maybe 'otiose' is the ultimate word. Now, if we could multiply that by 42 we could be on to something. Has anyone got a scrabble set?
mlroseplant Posted February 2, 2013 Author Posted February 2, 2013 Puffer and Megan, I need more friends like you. This conversation has become quite entertaining. I wish I could offer something witty, but. . . I can't. By the way, speaking of pedantry, how many spaces do you put between the periods in your ellipses? I like to put two spaces in between, but some style manuals dictate only one space between.
Puffer Posted February 2, 2013 Posted February 2, 2013 Puffer and Megan, I need more friends like you. This conversation has become quite entertaining. I wish I could offer something witty, but. . . I can't. By the way, speaking of pedantry, how many spaces do you put between the periods in your ellipses? I like to put two spaces in between, but some style manuals dictate only one space between. I normally put none, thus: ... which is how I normally see an ellipsis in print (but my eyes are not perfect). If you use three, perhaps we should compromise on two; in medio tutissimus ibis. High ideals, as well as high heels?
yozz Posted February 2, 2013 Posted February 2, 2013 I normally put none, thus: ... which is how I normally see an ellipsis in print (but my eyes are not perfect). If you use three, perhaps we should compromise on two; in medio tutissimus ibis. High ideals, as well as high heels? I looked it up in the TeX book (TeX is a program for typesetting technical texts). If you just type three periods, the typesetting leaves usually not enough space between the periods and things do not look nice. They have a special mode (math mode) in which they have a special command for making an ellipsis and indeed there is more space there between the periods. Unfortunately I could not find how they do define it so as to see how much space they put. My guess would be to try with a single space. But then, who knows what programs like Word will do? Y. Raise your voice. Put on some heels.
meganiwish Posted February 2, 2013 Posted February 2, 2013 in medio tutissimus ibis. Yes, that needs italics. Like Puffer, I use none. Even my pedantry doesn't extend that far and I don't want a callous on my thumb.
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