Anita C. Posted November 5, 2003 Posted November 5, 2003 I was sitting at my fave downtown haunt, having a cocktail. I'm in navy dress with navy 5" stilettos and hose, hair & makeup impeccible, gold jewelry & 'nails perfect - I look good. A young man approaches me. He is resplendant in dockers that lok as if they have never seen an iron, "Nike-Just Do It" t-shirt, unpolished shoes AND the obligatory BACKWARDS BASEBALL CAP. . . "Hey" "Hello" "Wow-you look so hot!" "thank you" "Can I buy you a drink!" "I have one. Thank you. And it's "MAY" I buy you a drink. . ." "Say what?" "Nevermind" "So, like . . ." "OK, precious, let me illustrate. I'll explain it like I'm talking to a 6 year old so I don't lose you, ok?" "That's cool" "So, I gather you like how I look, right?" "Oh, yeah!" "The dress, the hair, the heels . . . it all looks good to you." "Totally" "Now let's look at YOU." "Huh?" "Look at how you are dressed, precious! My lord! Your pants are wrinkled, you are in a T-Shirt for Gods' sake with unpolished shoes and when did you last shave?" "Yesterday. . . I think . . " "Now answer me this: WHY on Earth do you think that someone who looks like ME would be attracted to someone who looks like YOU??" "Oh . . " "Look - you seem to be a nice, albeit sloppy, person. I'd like to offer some constructive criticism: 1) Go home 2) Shower & Shave 3) comb your hair 4) Put on some clean, pressed pants and a shirt-like, one with buttons 5) polish your shoes 5) Splash on some cologne." "OK" "And 1 more thing." "What's that?" "Lose the cap." "Spike Heels . . a Pork-pie hat . . Have on the mend in no time flat . . Ten Minutes 'Till The Savages Come by Manhatten Transfer.
Anita C. Posted November 5, 2003 Author Posted November 5, 2003 Funny. LADIES take time to shave our legs & underarms, moisturize, do our make-up, 'nails & hair, dress, put on perfume and some unshaven urchin who dresses like he puled his ensemble from the clothes hamper offers us a cocktail and we're supposed to swoon???? GET A CLUE !! The urchin is offering to buy us a cocktail-NOT a Mercedes. "Spike Heels . . a Pork-pie hat . . Have on the mend in no time flat . . Ten Minutes 'Till The Savages Come by Manhatten Transfer.
Thighboots2 Posted November 5, 2003 Posted November 5, 2003 Now I can't agree with that Stephen at all. :argue: There are just certain standards of dress, and when a lady is well dressed, she will rightly expect any gentleman to be presentable. Nice put down Anita. TB2 Are you confusing me with someone who gives a damn?
stephen in heels Posted November 5, 2003 Posted November 5, 2003 get over yourselves. maybe he just finished work? maybe he hadnt had time to get ready etc... we males on here dont want any1 to judge us by our apperance by wearing heels. yet you are doing exactly that with this guy. Not stuck up. I know what I like and slobs don't qualify. Go 'way, urchin. nice pm anita. do u know me? NO.
Rockpup Posted November 5, 2003 Posted November 5, 2003 I've been hit on by guys who have turned me off before, but I tend to be polite about it. My first thought while reading the conversation was that you remind me of a few dominant ladies I know (good friends of mine), and please do not consider that an insult, you have alot of self confidence. A good thing, something that lacks in many people. I just suspect I'd have handled the situation diferently. One question. If you saw this same young man again tonight, cleaned up and dressed up, would you buy him a drink to congradulate him? Have a good one Jim (formerly known as "JimC")
Firefox Posted November 5, 2003 Posted November 5, 2003 From Posting guidelines: Not allowed:Blatantly sexist, racist, degrading, insulting, or defamatory posts Can we not use insulting terms in posts or PMs please as requested. Otherwise the boards become just a slanging match which I'm sure we are all above. If you disagree with Anita's viewpoint, please explain it in reasoned language, not personal insults.
Dr. Shoe Posted November 5, 2003 Posted November 5, 2003 I couldn't agree with Anita's viewpoint more. If you've made an effort to dress up and look good you don't want to be hit on by a complete slob. Suppose I'd spent 20 minutes in a bath, put on a clean pressed shirt, smart trousers, polished shoes and was wearing my best aftershave, I certainly wouldn't be interested in a woman in a dirty Tee-shirt, no make-up, hairy pits and crumpled jeans with dirty trainers. Would you? It's not a matter of judging by appearance it's a matter of matching. How could you go on to a swanky club or a restaurant when one or the other of you look like that? Sure, this guy could have been on his way from work but that is no excuse to look like a slob. I have quite a grubby job but I always Go home in pressed trousers (not jeans) a pressed polo shirt (never a tee shirt) and a formerly clean sweat shirt. Anyone looking at me will know that when I went to work I was clean, tidy and well presented. OK I might be a little sweaty from a hard day's work and slightly grubby but not a slob. Graduate footwear designer able to advise and assist on modification and shoe making projects.
sscotty727 Posted November 5, 2003 Posted November 5, 2003 Hi Anita, First off, you have EVERY right to choose/not choose drinks from anyone based on any criteria you choose. If an unkept look turns you off, that is your choice as much as it would be for Stephen to wear such a look. I think what might have bothered Stephen is the way you talked to the guy. I suppose you could see it as offering advice in hopes he would "get a clue", but I guess others would also see it as rude when a "No thank you" could have sufficed. I do agree, if they guy's main objective was to hit the bars looking for a date, he should have made himself presentable and dressed as you described. He was dressed more appropriately for a college mixer than a high class bar. If however he just stopped for drinks with friends on the way home from work and didn't intend to meet anyone but you caught his eye, well, I guess maybe he should have excused his apperance first. Please don't take offense for anything, I mean you no disrespect. Welcome to the board. Scotty
Firefox Posted November 5, 2003 Posted November 5, 2003 I certainly wouldn't be interested in a woman in a dirty Tee-shirt, no make-up, hairy pits and crumpled jeans with dirty trainers. Would you? Believe it or not I would be, if she had an interesting personality. I don't go too much on appearance. The next smart person you meet could likely be a shithead while the scruffy one could be an angel. You can't actually tell until you meet people and get to know them. Personally I prefer a scruffy angel to a smart shithead, but that's just my opinion. I'm prepared to concede it's not how most people think. Given the choice between a smart angel and a scruffy one, I'd probably go for the smart one so I'm not saying appearance doesn't count, just that people read too much into it. Too many relationships are founded on that basis, and who can wonder when they don't last? Put it another way, why are we now plagued by "attractive" teenage pop stars with next to no true musical talent? Society channels you to think in certain ways. Step back a moment and see if you pick out people's true abilities.
hoverfly Posted November 6, 2003 Posted November 6, 2003 Niiiiiiiiiiiiice!!! Old school and new school collide once again!!! :drinking: Any way a good appearance gets you farther in life than being a slob. For instance, job interviews or getting a beter chance at hooking that hot man or women in bed with you for a one night stand ....... For Anita C. it sounds like she has a base line for an ideal man that she wants to socialize with. We can tell that she was not impressed by this one for sure and can't blame her for that. But looks should not be the final biases for judgment of the person. Hello, my name is Hoverfly. I’m a high heel addict…. Weeeeeeeeeee! 👠1998 to 2022!
sscotty727 Posted November 6, 2003 Posted November 6, 2003 We all have our "grading" systems we use to size people up, be that whitty conversation, sexy clothes, neat and clean, scruffy, etc. Anita is entitled to hers as we all are. Most of us here size a woman up if she is wearing nice heels or not (take two identical women sitting side by side, could look like twins except one is in flats, other is in heels. How many of you would go to the woman in heels?). That said, a compromise can be made between suit and tie vs dirty clothes. Corporate casual comes to mind. Actually it has been years since I even wore a suit, however I think what Anita probably is saying is if you can't even take the time to make yourself look nice to meet her, then what does that say about other things in life that are more important. That isn't to say this guy (or other guys) don't have valid reason for not being dressed (just came from work, was just running out quickly for a few drinks with friends, etc), but it like it or not, alot (not everyones) evaluations are based on appearance. If a guy walks in wearing a nice tux, you immediately think very smart and successful. If the same guy walked in wearing torn jeans, dirty t-shirt and straw hat, dumb and poor. A very nice side-effect of online is you cut through the appearance and get more to the personality (even if you fake gender and age, personality is hard to mask online unless you are vulger). The best advice I can offer is you can only get one chance at a first impression. Before you go out to a bar (or any place) and try to meet that dream person, make sure you are dressed how you want other persons to see you. Scotty
stephen in heels Posted November 6, 2003 Posted November 6, 2003 all i am saying is that it wouldnt hurt you to be polite.
Anita C. Posted November 6, 2003 Author Posted November 6, 2003 If I wanted to be impolite I would have left him to his own devices and watched as he was ridiculed by the other patrons. As it turned out he took the advise and returned, receiving a better reaction and feeling more comfortable. I am sure that we (Stephen & I) will never reach common ground on this topic. The only things I will offer are: 1) You never get a second chance to make a first impression. 2) Conversely-dressed as I was, I would have fealt awkward going to a sports bar. 3) People behave better when they are dressed up. A documented fact. In conclusion, I still do not believe I was rude. Initially I was admittedly condescending and curt with him BUT I decided to take the time to save him any more embarrassment. What was he thinking coming in to the establishment dressed as he was? I have no idea. I do know that because of this incident the bar owner, who is a close & dear friend (AND Stiletto heel wearer/enthusiast herself) has placed a "Dress Code" placard at the entrance. Several club owners in the area are following suit (See #3). Given the same circumstances I would behave the same way . . . and have no regrets. "Spike Heels . . a Pork-pie hat . . Have on the mend in no time flat . . Ten Minutes 'Till The Savages Come by Manhatten Transfer.
JeffM Posted November 6, 2003 Posted November 6, 2003 Having read this from start to finish and back to start I cannot see where Anita has judged this guy's personality by how he is dressed. She has, it appears to me, judged him on his appearance only. And being all dressed to the nines she didnt want her appearance to be dragged down by letting him sit with her over a drink. She even says that she would feel awkward in a sports bar not because of her personality (in fact due to way she writes I think she would fit into a sports bar with no problems at all) but due to her dress. That is all that's in it to me. As for being rude how should she have told this guy why she wasnt interested if she wasnt allowed to say it as it was. Telling him to go away doesnt get the message over at all. The guy would problably just go away thinking "stuck up bitch". Would that have helped? Not for me it wouldnt. A bit of straight talking with out offence is a much better way to go for me. One last point if the guy was offended, who made him feel that way? Certainly not Anita. Surely it was his choice. Jeff
Slim Posted November 6, 2003 Posted November 6, 2003 I'm with you Anita--now a nice pair of slacks and shirt along with spike heeled boots, thats a different story.
cinthy Posted November 6, 2003 Posted November 6, 2003 First impressions are what matter most. No matter how nice a candy tastes, if it is wrapped in an ugly non-appealing wrapping no-one will eat it. And i think when i make an effort to look good and sexy and appealing i am entitled to expect the same from a man. I even try to look good after a long day of work as well.
Bubba136 Posted November 6, 2003 Posted November 6, 2003 Good for your friend, Anita. Appropriate attire should be mandatory if any place wants to preserve a good reputation and attract business. Even the "fast food" places have dress codes. There's a chain of Jewish Deli's here called Schlotsky's. They even have a dress code: "No shoeskies, no shirtskies, no Schlotsky's." Being mentally comfortable in your own mind is the key to wearing heels in public.
Trolldeg Posted November 6, 2003 Posted November 6, 2003 Anita> Now the interesting thing is, how would you have reacted if he had been wearing heels?
sscotty727 Posted November 6, 2003 Posted November 6, 2003 Appearances and first impressions absolutely matter! True story on how I met my wife. I had a friend of mine ask if I wanted to hit a new bar on a Saturday night. Since I wasn't having a lot of luck meeting anyone in my normal bars I said sure why not. When I asked him what the dress code there was, he said and I quote "Nice pants with a shirt and collar". I then said how about a tie and he said if you want. Well, I went in pressed pants, polished shoes, dress shirt with a tie. Well, upon arriving at this new "bar", I found out it was a "punk" bar. Everyone was dressed in leather, collars, spiked hair, etc, etc, etc. I felt like a narc (matter of fact, the door man stamped my hand and I gave him the entrance fee without us ever taking our eyes off one another). My "friend" showed up in jeans and t-shirt. After ringing his neck, he swore he said he told me to wear jeans and shirt WITHOUT a collar. Well I removed the tie, rolled the sleeves and did my best to not look like a narc, but was still dressed nice. Given the fact that my ideal “mate” wasn’t someone in purple spiked hair, I decided to stand in a corner and get very drunk and just play video games. While standing IN A CORNER playing games, my future wife came up to ME (not my friend in jeans and t-shirt although he was closer to "fitting in") and started talking to me. She even game me her number before the night was over. Later after we were dating for a while, I asked her what made her come to me out of all the people there (I am not the best looking guy, average at best), she said "You were the most normal looking guy there", in other words, the way I was dressed brought her to me. Had I worn jeans and t-shirt like my friend, I would not have stood out and I never would have met the love of my life! Scotty
new_look Posted November 7, 2003 Posted November 7, 2003 I agree and disagree. A woman who has obviously taken the time and made the effort to look her best would be dissapointed that her only pull for the night appeared as a scruff, but however id say there is a nicer way to put it. There is no need to put anyone down in such a way, and asking any woman for the first time takes enough courage, and its the fear of instances like this that will hold lots of people back. Women like this just dont seem understand how hard it is to ask someone out, and even ito a scruff there is nicer ways to pronounce a rejection. As firefox said on the meet, although appearance is most of initial attraction, it is personality that counts more in most cases. If he def wasnt her type she couldve shood him away nicely instead of a lengthy put down. I will not go a far as to what mr steve said, but basically anyone acting in this way is basically acting rather high and mighty, with an 'im superior' attitude, which i would not agree with.
chris100575 Posted November 7, 2003 Posted November 7, 2003 Well said Daz, you've just nicely put exactly what I thought.
Anita C. Posted November 7, 2003 Author Posted November 7, 2003 The young man in question took, left & returned in appropriate attire. Superiority? Hmmmm?!?!? Perhaps initially. If, however, I had just "shood him off" he might have blundered along all night oblivious to what was wrong regardless of how pleasant of a person he was. I STILL stand by what I did. In a perfect world people wouldn't be judged by appearances . . . It's not a perfect world and you never get a second chance for a first impression. "Spike Heels . . a Pork-pie hat . . Have on the mend in no time flat . . Ten Minutes 'Till The Savages Come by Manhatten Transfer.
Pam Posted November 7, 2003 Posted November 7, 2003 Appearances are important, but they can also sometimes limit the capacity to meet someone interesting... I had to interview a guy for a job ... came to the interview totally dressed down, since he was a creative IT guy, that was his excuse for his appearance. This dude has an impressive resume, and he was a very smart individual. I recommended him for a second round, but my boss totally shut him down because of the way he presented himself. His reasoning was that he was not appropriate to carry the company's image as an employee...Appearances matter!!! This is an odd case, but the bottom line is that there is a time and place for everything including appearances.
Heelfan Posted November 7, 2003 Posted November 7, 2003 I feel very strongly that decent dress for an interview is a courtesy thing - just plain good manners. That employee might have been brilliant at his job, but if he didn't respect the boss enough to make the slightest effort to appear smart and presentably on the big day, in all likelihood he would not make the effort to conduct himself with consideration in other directions. As an employer myself, I would rather employ somebody reasonably competant who is courteous, well-mannered, caring and alert than another person who is a genius in his subject but sloppy, uncaring, inconsiderate and uncouth. Although unkempt dressers are not always slack in these other areas, very often they are, because all of these behavioral traits are aspects of self-discipline (or lack of it!). Cheefully yours, Heelfan Onwards and upwards!
Firefox Posted November 7, 2003 Posted November 7, 2003 I'd rather employ the person who was best technically and had the best ability to communicate verbally and in writing. That's what I base selection on when I interview people. I wouldn't necessarily associate a sloppy appearance with being inconsiderate or uncouth. However, interviews are a game and you have to play it. Many interviewers are not particulary good at their jobs or may have certain preconceptions about how people should look, so you should appaear as smart as possible to give yourself the best chance.
Anita C. Posted November 7, 2003 Author Posted November 7, 2003 My own Brother is a Graphic Artist and a fine one with over 30 awards to his credit. He was one of the "sandles, long hair/beard, jeans and tattoo" crowd. Fortunately for him his reputation PRECEEDS him. People who hire him know what they are getting.long in advance of his arrival. If he were to walk in your door unknown his appearance would be problematic and you might not even glance at his portfolio. He is my Brother and I love him unconditionally. I also work in the corporate world. I was able to help him produce his resume'. . . to help open the doors of future clients who aren't famaliar with his work. "Spike Heels . . a Pork-pie hat . . Have on the mend in no time flat . . Ten Minutes 'Till The Savages Come by Manhatten Transfer.
Pam Posted November 7, 2003 Posted November 7, 2003 When it comes to work or important events, it is key to take care of how you present yourself no matter how genius you are... Your brother is lucky to have a brand name that allows him to be more relaxed on his look Unfortunately I am stuck in corporate america, very traditional if I might add!! I am at a place where actual looks and politics are sometimes more important than knowledge and skill
Dr. Shoe Posted November 7, 2003 Posted November 7, 2003 The whole point of presentation for an interview is adhering to the interviewer's expectations. If I went for a lorry driving job then clean jeans and an open necked shirt would be appropriate and expected but for a managerial post a suit would be the standard. Someone once told me that he always went to interviews in all kinds of weird garb and had bright purple hair, his reason is that he likes to demonstrate that he "can think outside the box". What he doesn't realise is that they are looking for team players and not maverick loose cannons who are liable to cause all kinds of problems for being radical. Incidentally, the guy in question has been unemployed for years! If I went for a job as a footwear designer, would I wear "funky clothes"? No, I would not because the footwear industry is dominated by grey men and to dress like the person interviewing you is half way to getting the job. The funky gear comes later! Graduate footwear designer able to advise and assist on modification and shoe making projects.
genebujold Posted November 8, 2003 Posted November 8, 2003 Dear Anita: After thoroughly reviewing the post, I would like to point out precisely where your ersatz date failed in his decorum as a member of the XY half of our species: I was sitting at my fave downtown haunt, having a cocktail. I'm in navy dress with navy 5" stilettos and hose, hair & makeup impeccible, gold jewelry & 'nails perfect - I look good. A young man approaches me. He is resplendant in dockers that lok as if they have never seen an iron, "Nike-Just Do It" t-shirt, unpolished shoes AND the obligatory BACKWARDS BASEBALL CAP. . . "Hey" "Hello" "Wow-you look so hot!" "thank you" "Can I buy you a drink!" "I have one. Thank you. And it's "MAY" I buy you a drink. . ." "Say what?" At this point, he should have said, "Thank you for the tip" and walked away instead of "say what?" Up until that point, he was definately underdressed, but with your corrective comment, you were, well, rude. If you were not interested, you should have simply said, "No thank you" to his "can I buy you a drink" query, and let him move on. Instead, you quite rudely engaged him in a "witty reparte'" (yeah, right) ostensibly designed to do little more than vent from whatever X you're suffering on his Y. (mathmatical variables, only - no gender implied). First impressions notwithstanding, all you've succeeded in doing in your post is to demonstrate how incredibly shallow is your perception of human psyche. I've known many incredibly deep individuals who dress rather plainly, yet who posess incredible intelligence, insight, and have brought warm, human companionship to myself and many others over the years. On the other hand, I've met innumerable "hot, well-dressed" individuals (men and women" who were about as deep as the 3/8" flyers they received from their favorite mail-order catelogs. In case you errantly believe I don't know what I'm talking about, between 1983 and 1985, I found myself on several fashion runways around the world. So please don't lecture me on comments like "I was hot." Bottom line: Fashion is admirable! Judging other humans based upon fashion is NOT.
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