Are You Gay or something?

genebujold · November 28, 2003

Absolutly not.

If that's your thing, fine.

But non-afficionados of heel-wearing men, be forewarned! The vast majority of us are NOT gay!

Or bi, for that matter.

We simply enjoy wearing heels.

Some of us enjoy wearing other articles of women's clothing, but for the vast majority of us - just the heels, please.

Why?

I dunno - every guy has his reasons. I'd conjecture (I have before) but I'd rather not do so here in an all-encompassing manner, for two reasons. First, it might delve too deep. Second, it matters very little.

The bottom line is that a human being has chosen a nice, often very conservative fashion accessory, and simply wants to enjoy wearing it without being drug through the Spanish Inquisition.

Should that be enough of an incentive to simply leave them/us alone?

Get this - I was reading to my son, tonight. The book? A Peanuts Encyclopedia. The topic? Clothing throughout the centuries. In this one, Charles Schultz used his peanuts characters to discuss the wide varieties of clothing throughout the ages. It wasn't complete by any means, but it did show my son three pics of men wearing skirts.

"Oh - so they were skirts like you, Daddy?"

"Sure they do! As do many men around the world."

"Why don't anyone else here wear skirts?"

"Because they choose to wear other things, like jeans."

"But you wear jeans."

"Yes, I do."

"But they don't wear skirts."

"Most of them, no - they do not?"

"But why not?"

"I don't know, buddy. It's time for bed. Come on - let's get your snack."

Why not?

Indeed.

I find 'em a whole lot more comfortable than jeans or slacks - perfect for lounging around the house. Terrible for mowing the lawn, though - which is why I switch to jeans.

But there's no reason I shouldn't feel utterly free to waltz into grocery store wearing the same clothing I wear at home, especially since it was designed for public wear!

genebujold · November 28, 2003

hehe... tried that argument already. She said that billions of women wear pants, so everybody thinks it's normal, hence it IS normal. She has never seen any other guy wearing high heels, like most other people, so that sight would make people think that it is not normal.

I tried to tell her that in a free country, people are free to do as they please, unless there is a law against. I said I was pretty sure that it would be illegal to wear heels if it would be considered harmful to society. But she says that she's free to have tighter requirements for me than what the law says, pretty much in the same way that it's not illegal not to have a shower for 12 consequetive months.

Bert

Let's not overlook the obvious - it's called history.

Women didn't wear pants until the 1920's.

They didn't wear pants in any numbers until during WWII, when they would don their male counterparts' protective clothing (overalls, coveralls, etc.) while assembling machines for war.

They weren't allowed to wear anything but skirts while employed as store clerks, teachers - you name it - until the 1960s, when a few choice landmark decisions gave them pretty much total clothing rights, provided it was tasteful and in accordance with the general fashion acceptability of the customer.

As men, we're just not there, yet. Fortunately, due to the rapidly accelerating learning curve, we're a lot closer than women were during the 1920's, it'll still take about 7 years before society really accepts men in heels, and another 5 before it accepts men in any fashion.

coolshoes · November 28, 2003

What an interesting meandering thread. As to the initial question that started this--my answer is yes. I am gay and I wear manly heels in public. Manly heels being block heels either on loafers or boots. Those kinds of shoes just look better to me with pants/jeans on both women and men. I rarely see gay men in heels unless they are doing drag in a show. I actually see more straight crossdressers in heels as they come out to a couple of the gay bars that I go to--a safe place for them. As to gender and color, I usually wear brighter colors than most men for two reasons. First, I mostly buy my clothes on sale and the bright colors in men's clothing is what is left. Second, luckily for me bright colors make me feel good and are fun to wear. As to women in men's clothing, as a university teacher I periodically ask male students if they belief in women's equality. They always say yes. Then I ask them if it is ok for a man to wear a skirt. The response is always a look of horror and shock followed by stammering. The point being that it is ok for a woman to be like a man and dress like a man, but not the other way round. In other words, to do things that are seen by most males as womanly is automatically to be inferior. For that matter, feminists would say it also means that women are not equal. True equality would not have these results.

Slim · November 28, 2003

Very true Coolshoes, we men have such extreem gravatos that any variation from the norm would cause a warp in space time. But women, they are so unimportant it dosn't make any difference what they do. You would think the girls would pick up on this.

new_look · November 28, 2003

i personaaly think it all stinks. ive read all the threads and am impressed by the opinions and the reasoning is excellent. its the type of subject that gets me riled up inside sometimes. Sometimes makes me wish i was born a woman and not having these problems. the world seems to swing the scales in favour of women for nearly anything now.

Firefox · November 29, 2003

Interesting point, Cool Shoes. Men are strereotyped as powerful leader hunters, while women are stuck with gathering sticks and berries. If a woman wants to become a hunter then that adds to the strength of the tribe, while the men who want to gather berries deplete it's resource of power. People are hung over with this image and most haven't got the intelligence or charisma to see through it, especially in a situation where they are faced with some jeering peer pressure on the subject. It doesn't take a big nudge to reverse the jeers I have found. For, in a modern world, I have logic and equality on my side. Like the "Emporer's new clothes" story, one person who speaks up reduces the jeers to their true empty status. As for being gay and wearing heels. I can see little correlation from my experience. 10% (or whatever) of people are gay. 10% of people who wear heels (both genders) are likewise also gay. It's not a big deal either way except for ignorant people with ignorant preconceptions.

loveheel · November 30, 2003

My wife and I have a lot of friends that are gay and I have never seen one that wears heels, or any feminine type of clothing. So, I don't think there is any correlation between the heel wearing and being gay. I have been following and posting on this board since its existence (though surely way to sporadically) and find that the great majority of the people on this board wear heels because they like the shoes and the style they create. The common passion for shoes is stronger than society's stereotypes. This is the same reason why we get very well accepted by some sales women in stores. Just like us, they REALLY like shoes. If you think we are into shoes, I have met several sales girls that have hundreds of pairs of shoes. It is all about the shoes. Not about who you care to sleep with.

new_look · December 1, 2003

I think it can be put that gay lades do tend to act more feminine, (we have 2 at our work) take interest in girly things and hang out with girls instead of with lads playing football etc, so i can understand the assumption that people would thing that a gay man interested in girly things would be more likely to be wearing heels, but as we have said its not the case. Actually during a small shoe discussion in the staff room with the girls and Paul (one of the gay lads) he actually asked what it was like to wear heels and what it felt like, and all the women were saying that they kill your feet etc, and they dont know how charlotte totters round the office in 'them' shoes all day. I laughed loud in side. Charlotte wears 3 in stiletto pumps every day. hardly the height of discomfort Daz

azraelle · December 3, 2003

First of all, I do not want to offend anyone's sensibilities here, gay or straight. But an idea that has been floating around in my head for several years now really ought to be brought to the light of day, at least once. The vast majority of the women of the world have no desire or use for "anal intercourse". If a guy chooses to emulate a woman's dress or mannerisms, either partially or completely, why does it automatically follow in the majority of people's minds that HE should want anal intercourse??

Bubba136 · December 3, 2003

Perhaps because that is the only place he can accept his partner's offerings that comes anywhere close to simulating what a real woman goes through.

PJ · December 3, 2003

Hmmm, reading all of the comments here is interesting. Now for some input from me. As far as I'm concerned, I have always considered myself to be heterosexual. This was true even why I first started to wear high heel pumps with my male clothing. Later on after I became an adult, I got interested in crossdressing on a part-time basis. This made my heel wearing experiences even more pleasurable. But I still was only interested in girls. Then one day, I read a story in a high heel magazine. It concerned a real-life experience of a heterosexual crossdresser (CD). The story went like this. This CD would often daydream about what it would be like to be treated like a real woman. The CD revealed this secret to a friend of his. That friend mentioned that he had a male friend who dates crossdressers and would the CD like to try going out on a date with him. Although the CD was apprehensive, he agreed. During the date, the male friend treated the CD just like a real woman. He did all the male chauvanistic courtesies that many women enjoy. Then at the end of the date, the male friend took the CD in his arms and kissed him. What surprised me was that I got extremely aroused reading this story, especially about the kissing. Does that mean I have some kind of gay or bisexual tendencies? When I'm crossdressed, I often think about this story. Yet when I am in my male attire, the thought of even kissing a male makes me sick. Does this sound strange?

Rockpup · December 3, 2003

Azraelle: One amuzing survey I've read was that there are more straight couples who have had anal sex then there are gay men.. Although that is not to say that being gay requires that you practice anal sex. I know a few gay men personally who are just not interested in ever trying it. Even those who do it may not always do it.. (After eating some Taco-Bell for example ) Have a great one Jim PS: reguarding the original topic, it definatly seems that there are more straight guys into heels then gay guys.. Although the percentage of those who never dare to try their dream will never be known. I wonder if the high heel (4-6") cowboy boots will catch on and give men a 'masculine' outlet for their heeled interests.

Firefox · December 3, 2003

With regard to the x-dressing thing I have seen it said on the web that there are a large number usually known as CD's who just like the clothes. Whereas a few "TV's" go a stage further and may want to appreciate a stronger female identity involving growing breasts, hormones, and sexual relations with guys. I don't think that has anything to do with being gay or not though. It's a completely different subject. In the UK at least, I think CD and TV mean much the same thing. There doesn't seem to be any difference in degree.

Brandy · January 5, 2004

What an interesting meandering thread.

As to women in men's clothing, as a university teacher I periodically ask male students if they belief in women's equality. They always say yes. Then I ask them if it is ok for a man to wear a skirt. The response is always a look of horror and shock followed by stammering. The point being that it is ok for a woman to be like a man and dress like a man, but not the other way round. In other words, to do things that are seen by most males as womanly is automatically to be inferior. For that matter, feminists would say it also means that women are not equal. True equality would not have these results.

Thank you,

This answers a question I pondered a lot this last 12 months. I will relate some additional remarks here.

First one to come to mind. I was in the Utlilkilt booth at the Folsom Street Fair in San Francisco, looking at the new Mocker's very nice by the way I can recommend them. One of the assistant's/customers a women was wearing a UK and helping to answer questions. I asked her about her's yes she has been wearing UK's for the last two years, and they are the only thing she wears, she really loves the comfort etc. Before UK's she only wore trousers/jeans but now she only wears UK's. Not other skirts, only MENS SKIRTS. She wears what men wear.

Next, for the last two weeks I have been wearing mostly UK's and skirts. The Uk's seem to cause very little reaction and have generated a number of positive comments. Last Saturday I was shopping and wearing a fancy knit sweater, dark navy trumpet skirt, and cowboy boots. I seemed to have caused a lot of whip lash. The over all look on peoples faces was bewilderment. Where you are has a lot to do with the reactions as you could guess. I was not attempting to look like a women just a man in a skirt.

As for my choice skirts, trousers and jeans each have there function, as my profession has me sitting in an office pounding on a keyboard skirts are my choice. Corporate culture put's limits on what I can do, diveresity training or not.

At work I really do not care for the attention a skirt generates, it makes me feel to uncomfortable.

My New Years resolution more UK Friday's.

As a teacher I would think you would have the opertunity to expand your students horizon. Check Utilikilts.com website just such a teaching experence was conducted last year.

-- Brandy

Brandy · January 5, 2004

Well, it ain't particulary bright indeed. I have been shouted at only once actually, but I guess it's a quite common thought. My biggest problem in that respect is my wife, who made that association also immediately when I came out of the closet. And she isn't stupid, has an academic degree, has a high position, makes tons of money, deals with all kind of people sucessfully and keeps her staff happy by being very understanding. But still she freaks out when I try to address this heel thing. She's open minded about everything, but this causes her to shut down every time I bring it up: "I don't want to be married with a gay". End of conversation. Even if I have told her repeatedly that there is nothing that points in that direction.

I'm getting pretty tired of this, so if any of you knows a way to get her convinced, I buy you loads of beer

Bert

Bert,

First she is a smart chick and allready knows the answer but is unwilling to accept the result.

Part of it is a control issue, hers re-read your description of her. She's is an accomplished in control type of person. I'll second guess and suspect that she bring's that home with her.

Next is fear, her's. What we find the most hated in others is what is buried deepest within. As much as anything I'll bet she has some un-resolved sexuality issues of her own.

Each person has a vested interest in the status-quo. Each derives some value of self-worth / self-image from the Spouse or SO.

Now that you are facing up to your surpressed self image and are expressing them, your upsetting the status-quo. So her first reaction is to beat you back into the corner to maintain her status-quo.

This can be very distrutive currently and for the future, I went through the same battle. It was not until I found this board, Tom's Cafe & Chris's Atrium that I found out who I am. Utilikilts are a God-send to me.

What can you do? First let me ask who or what in this universe do you have contorl over?

------ Yourself ------

So what she thinks and does is her business, you can only control your own actions. That means do not respond to her taunts with anger, it will only fuel the fire.

Make peace with yourself, be willing to ask for help from you wife. I will also quote to following:

(Deity of your choice) grant me the serenity to accept the things I can not change. Courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

Note that no where did it say surrender, and sometimes a small group can change the world.

And it is possible you are better off with out her. I love my ex-wives dearly, I can no longer live with either of them. I learned a lot from each but now I must make my own way, even if I must walk alone, -- some days in heels also.

-- Brandy

Kiwiguy · January 5, 2004

Ask her if her wearing of trousers makes her a lesbian? On second thoughts that might not get a very polite response. I'll keep quiet

Well actually this argument is not a bad one. I used it in discussions with some of my female colleagues in the bank. As I said in my earlier postings I've never had bad remarks about my habit to wear moderate heels (6 to 8 cm) even in daily business. However we had some discussions about this during coffee breaks and some of the mid aged women brought the gay argument forward. I countered with the pants argument and actually it worked. Today these nice ladies are so used to it (and since about a year I'm not longer the only male wearing heels, we are 2 now), that there is never a comment at all.

But I got encouraging comments from some ladies who said that they thought more men should wear heels. Indeed, although Austria is a rather tradition minded country in Vienna at least you can see young and not so young guys wearing heels, albeit moderate and very rarely stilettos. But they wear them at private parties a lot. My shoemaker told me that he has some dozen customers who buy ladies shoes somewhere and bring them to him for modifications if necessary.

My highest heels are 4 inches and I just wore them last week at a social event (I was the only one there who did) but they either didn't realize it at all or they are already used to the picture, no one made a comment and we spent a very nice evening.

So I guess the situation is starting to normalize.

genebujold · January 6, 2004

No, I'm not gay! (just thought I'd clarify that before proceeding...)

Yes, I like wearing heels. As I have a bad ankle, a 3-inch heel is far more comfortable than a flat shoe. Something to do with where the damage is vs where the contact point is and the angle of my ankle. Flat=pain. Canted=relief. After a while, I grew used to it, then began liking wearing heels.

As for skirts, that came about when my wife had inadvertantly thrown all my pants (I don't have many pairs) into the wash/dryer. She threw me one of her skirts with a stretch/tie waist, and the rest was history - it was simply far more comfortable than my jeans.

Still, I rarely wear skirts in public, although I usually wear heels after hours.

About a month ago, my wife bought a Macabi skirt for me online: http://www.macabiskirt.com/. They have both women and men sizes, so they're obviously marketing to both sexes.

I wore it for the first time a few days ago while at an Italian resturant in The Venetian. It's a little short for my tastes(the "long" size is 38 inches), but it's quite comfortable. Shortened it looks like a very baggy pair of shorts. Long with the strap in place it almost appears like baggy pants. Hook the strap to the side, however, and it looks like a skirt.

I wore it with my Tevas and socks (I know - horrible fashion faux pas), but that's what I like to wear, so...

Surprisingly, most people sensed that this wasn't just a woman's skirt (as they have when I've worn a woman's skirt out, even one that was as gender-neutral as a skirt can be), and I was asked a lot of questions, most notably, "where can I get one?" from several of the guys with whom I talked. The women were envious ("I want one too!"), but both were surprised to learn that they were being marketed to both sexes and had sizes for both on the website.

But I digress...

genebujold · January 6, 2004

As for the terminology, here's a refresher: Gay: Male who prefers sexual contact with other men. Lesbian: Female who prefers sexual contact with other females. I use the term "sexual contact" since the range of those who prefer friendships, even emotionally (but not sexually) intimate ones, with those of the same sex run the gamut of the straight-homosexual continuum. Bi: Person who prefers sexual contact with either gender. Crossdresser and Transvestite are technically the same, although the term transvestite is more often used to describe a man who wears between one and a few items of women's clothing, whereas the term crossdresser is usually used to describe a man who dresses as a women, including makeup, nails, etc. Notice I didn't use the term "woman" in the above paragraph. When was the last time you saw a woman dressed as a man? Their range of publically-acceptable clothing is so wide that there is no longer any such animal! Anything external clothing item worn by a man is publically acceptable to be worn by a woman. So much for equal rights - phooey! Transexual refers to someone who either wants to have or has had their physical sex altered to more closely approximate that of the sex opposite to what they were born. Transgender is a fairly all-encompassing term, referring to anyone, male or female, who wanders from the fairly narrow statistical norm for their birth sex in terms of either dress, mannerisms, thoughts, emotions, activity, sexual preference, etc., and includes all of the above definitions. So, when a man wears heels, what is he? Gay? No. He's a crossdresser or transvestite who's engaging in transgender behavior. When the concept of men wearing heels becomes commonly acceptable behavior (as is men wearing earrings), it will no longer be any of the above - it will merely be a fashion choice. We're getting there, guys - but we're not quite there, yet!

Trolldeg · January 7, 2004

Notice I didn't use the term "woman" in the above paragraph. When was the last time you saw a woman dressed as a man? Their range of publically-acceptable clothing is so wide that there is no longer any such animal! Anything external clothing item worn by a man is publically acceptable to be worn by a woman.

actually wrong, female to male crossdressers exist. they are few, but they exist.

Robert · January 7, 2004

female to male crossdressers exist. they are few, but they exist.

They are called Tomboys?

Firefox · January 7, 2004

A Tomboy is a young girl who enjoys rough and tumble activities like climbing trees or football. There's no implied impersonation of the other gender in the term, only a liking for traditionally boy's activities.

Robert · January 7, 2004

O.k., I didn't know that, thank you very much

new_look · January 7, 2004

and a boy liking traditionally female things (eg high heels) is a sissy or a puff, or relating to this thread, gay in adult terms. The world is wrong.

Firefox · January 7, 2004

Well, if every one spent their time in heels and make-up, society is threatened, while if everyone helped to chop wood and hunt food it wouldn't be, so in a sense it's quite logical there should be some resistance to men adopting what are seen as sissy habits.

new_look · January 8, 2004

but in modern society where traditional roles dont apply with woodchopping etc, is it not illogical to say that men are sissies if they wanna branch to get involved in traditionally female things. in our world, women do many jobs that men do and vice versa. Women dont wear heels all the time, and men wouldnt have to if they needed to chop would for the fire but it would be nice to have the choice to do as i please without riducule or unwelcome labels. wearing heels doesnt make me less manly. i can still lift more in the gym than people bigger than me, and play football better and so on....

Firefox · January 8, 2004

Yes a modern society, but we still have the minds and bodies of cavemen

new_look · January 8, 2004

cavemen never had heels to worry about i do, and as bad a place as yorkshire can be, i would like to announce that i do not dwell in a cave either i still dont regard myself a sissy cos i wanna wear heels, and dont think anyone else should have the right to either

Anita C. · January 9, 2004

Yes, there are Drag Kings. We have one as a client. They tape their breasts, have close-cropped hair, sideburns, hairy chests and . . . um . . . uh . . . how does one put this delicately? The appropriate faux "plumbing". They perform locally. I haven't had a chence to see exactly what it is that they do but . . . Hey-it takes a lot of links to make a chain, y'know! Ciao!

hoverfly · September 28, 2005

A Tomboy is a young girl who enjoys rough and tumble activities like climbing trees or football. There's no implied impersonation of the other gender in the term, only a liking for traditionally boy's activities.

Tomboy's never grow up, just ask akatexasbumpkin.......... `

HeelD · September 28, 2005

Crossdresser and Transvestite are technically the same, although the term transvestite is more often used to describe a man who wears between one and a few items of women's clothing, whereas the term crossdresser is usually used to describe a man who dresses as a women, including makeup, nails, etc.

I had to respond as I'm sure it's the other way around:

Crossdresser - someone who wears one or a few items of clothes intended for the opposite sex but doesn't want to be seen as the opposite sex. Wearing high heels can be seen as "crossdressing".

Transvestite - someone who actually wants to pass themselves off as the opposite sex.

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