Gathering students in London

[JNR]

Just watching the news and wondering if there is even going to be a "London" after this day ends?

[at9]

We survived the blitz. We survived the IRA bombings. We survived the 3 day week (1973/4) We survived the winter of discontent (1978/9). We survived 7/7. We survived Maggie's poll tax riots. What we didn't so well with were the so-called town planners who did much more damage than Hitler's bombers ever managed.

[Dr. Shoe]

Indeed. I'm not sure how much damage a bunch of kids can really do. A few broken windows, a bit of recreational arson? I think that's about it.

[partyshoes]

OH it really riles me when I see these riots on the telly ... though to be fair, I know that the violence is perpetrated by a few mindless idiots who have absolutely no link to the protest but see this as a good opportunity to create havoc!! 90% of those out on the streets were appalled with this destruction being carried out in their names and condem it wholeheartedly as they should .. Enough of the politically correct policing and control - bring back good old fashioned riot police who when you stepped out of line - especially violence and criminal damage - would let the dogs go along with liberal helping of tear gas and the odd rubber bullet. If you choose to behave like an animal expect to be treated like one and dont whinge about your human rights and civil liberties or expect any sympathy from us - what about our rights and liberties? Who is going to pay for the damage ... take a guess! To the students, whilst I can sympathise with what you have to say about the increase and having to pay so much more, please consider this - we are one of the VERY FEW countries in the world where this privilege exists. I have lived and worked in several countries where students have to pay for their university education in its entirety and the tax payer doesnt pay a cent. Indeed in those countries, you have to pay back the student loan whether you pass or fail and irrespective of what you earn when you start work. To use an analogy I heard in the pub - the sweetie jar is empty! if you want sweets, you're going to have to buy your own for the next couple of years cos there is no money to fill it. Its sucks but that life - we're were fortunate enough to have led the good life but thats over now PHEW - deep breath. Ok, i'llget off my soap box now

[Charlie]

Well.. with the U.S. students winding up in 25th place in mathematics on the world academics scoreboard despite spending more than anyone else on education, it looks like 'stupid' is getting a toe hold here. 'Stupid' is the fuel for events such as what's occured in London, and the irony is that this all DOES add up. We've proved that it's not possible to buy ourselves out of 'stupid' here.. It looks to me like the whole world has become too materialistic and with the worldwide recession putting a damper to the flow of goodies, it's resulting in a lot of pissed off people who have misplaced values. It's scary because the world was in a similar state of flux prior to the start of the second world war. Charlie

[Guest]

Well.. with the U.S. students winding up in 25th place in mathematics on the world academics scoreboard despite spending more than anyone else on education, it looks like 'stupid' is getting a toe hold here. 'Stupid' is the fuel for events such as what's occured in London, and the irony is that this all DOES add up. We've proved that it's not possible to buy ourselves out of 'stupid' here..

It looks to me like the whole world has become too materialistic and with the worldwide recession putting a damper to the flow of goodies, it's resulting in a lot of pissed off people who have misplaced values. It's scary because the world was in a similar state of flux prior to the start of the second world war.

Charlie

Spot on there Charlie.

There's more panic creation than repair work for this recession that everybody is in (bar China), it seems excess overkill within the UK to be head of the recovery game.

Al

[Confused]

Virtually all the students I know and I know quite a few are up in arms about the rise in tuition fees. They all seem to have this warped sense of entitlement to public money to fuel their education and lifestyle. When I actually question them on what the problem is basically comes down to this "I might end up owing more money if I take more courses". The whole "it will keep poorer students out" and "the Lib Dems are liars" are just whines on the sidelines. I think it is a good thing if students think a while longer about their own education before just taking a student loan and jumping into a course that kind of interests them. I have one friend who is 26 years old and has been at uni since he was 20, he has just been moving from course to course changing his mind about any plans for a career every time I see him. Another of my friends is doing a psychology course because she thought it sounded "easy" she has no real interest in the subject or plans for a career. Both of those two spend more money on drink than anyone else I know, they are both constantly moaning about how they have no cash and neither have any kind of job and both were at the London march this week (to my knowledge they did not partake in any of the rioting). Now I believe they have a right to go to university just like any other person should and if they cannot afford it the tax payer stepping in when we have the funds is no bad thing. But when the private sector is being smashed like it is now, the working pubic should not be paying for people to go to uni so they can experience a life style. They should be there to learn and here is lesson one, nothing in life is free your education has always and will always cost someone money. The other thing I find hard to drum into their heads is that a student is loan is one of the best loans in the world. Imagine if you could walk into the bank and get a business loan for £100,000 with the interest rate of student loan that you would never pay back unless your business was a success. As for the rioters... Bring out the rubber bullets and tear gas.

[UpBy5]

Yeah, Confused! You don't sound confused to me. In education as with everything else, there's NO free lunch. Making government backed low-interest education loans is the good idea. Making those loans cancellable for ANY reason is the bad one. It makes no economic or moral sense of any kind. Holding off repayment requirements for a year, sure...give a kid a chance in a tough job market. After that, McDonald's always needs employees. They can start SOME kind of repayment. If mom & dad want to make the payments for them, so be it, as long as its not the taxpayer who gets stiffed. That idea mostly works OK here across the pond. My two grandchildren graduated from a regular four year course at univ. in the last three years. One went to a high-dollar New England school, the other to a local state school. Between them, they're stuck holding something a bit north of $ 180 grand in loans from 28 different sources. The family helps out, but not 100%. That's life, and that's OK. Neither of them or anyone else is ENTITLED to that sort of free ride on the public purse. If you don't pay for a thing yourself, you're not likely to value it very highly. A bit of help, a good thing, free, forget it! ...and I'm not even a Republican.

[chris100575]

Haven't all these rioting students got lectures to go to? They can't all have a free period.

[Puffer]

We survived the blitz. We survived the IRA bombings. We survived the 3 day week (1973/4) We survived the winter of discontent (1978/9). We survived 7/7. We survived Maggie's poll tax riots.

What we didn't so well with were the so-called town planners who did much more damage than Hitler's bombers ever managed.

Well said, at9.

It's a little known fact that, despite the cull of many pets during WW2, the weight of the s**t deposited by the remaining dogs in London was greater than that of all of Hitler's bombs, if a trifle less annoying. (Just thought I would share that with you all - as no doubt the dogs and Hitler also decided.)

But I do wonder if we will also survive the enormous disruption and cost (to the taxpayer) of the forthcoming Olympic Games, particularly at a time of falling incomes and rising prices and taxes. Already, there have been a significant number of small businesses evicted with scanty compensation from their premises in East London to make room for the stadium etc; many have not survived. And few living or working anywhere near the Games venues will escape the chaos when they are being held, and priority for travel and access etc is given to competitors and VIPs. Scrap the Games now, I say!

[Dr. Shoe]

Actually I'm looking forward to it. Living as I do within a few hundred yards of the Velodrome and less than half a mile from the main stadium my flat's worth a fortune in rents. Bring it on I say! lol

[Puffer]

Actually I'm looking forward to it. Living as I do within a few hundred yards of the Velodrome and less than half a mile from the main stadium my flat's worth a fortune in rents. Bring it on I say! lol

Yes, I thought you might well have a positive view, Doc! I hope you make something out of it. Why not hire out some high heels too, to give the spectators a better view?

[UpBy5]

Yes, I thought you might well have a positive view, Doc! I hope you make something out of it. Why not hire out some high heels too, to give the spectators a better view?

Come now Puffer....there ARE limits!

UpBy5

[Puffer]

Come now Puffer....there ARE limits!

UpBy5

Yes indeed - I was thinking of 4" max.

[frisbee201]

It's kind of annoyed me the way the student protests were criticized. I condemn the violence that arose completely but as for the protests themselves, I support them completely. I think, in the UK, we have a bit of a reputation for complaining about stuff but never actually doing anything about it, political apathy is certainly in existence. But now that a social group actually decided to try and stand up against someonething they didn't think was right, they're still criticised. What would they supposed to do? Right a stiffly worded letter to the Daily Mail? The students weren't successful, the legislation was passed, but frankly I hope their protests inspire others to get up and fight fr what they believe in. To me, that's one of the main points of living in a democratic society, the right to stand up and shout about stuff you diagree with.

[Guest]

Nice one there Frisbee. The French seem to get "stuck" in well to prove their point and seem to get results. I am aware of two students as a couple both completed their degrees to the cost of £3000 per term for three years so between them their loan was circa £56000, got work as teachers, bought a house - just. After a few years paying back the loan and mortgage, their pay rises be it annual or promotional triggered extra pay back to the student loan to the point that what ever the new increment they got was totally wiped out by the enhanced payback. It is not uncommon for students to pair up and the above is certainly not uncommon with those that need to use all the loan. I do know some that have been able to do the opposite take and save a majority and been able to repay back to the provider and settle the outstanding over a few years. They are the lucky ones that stay at home because the Uni. of their choice is local and all works out well. I believe in the next generations of students many with potential will not get the chance due to these enhanced fees. However incoming international students will still come and out of interest where does their fees come from? You may be able to guess that I have kids waiting to try for Uni. (3 through, 1 unsupported [deaf] and left, 3 to go). Al

[frisbee201]

Thanks Alsheels. The way I look at it, I've got a degree which is essentially worth toilet paper, but I was extremely lucky in that my parents funded it. I will have to pay back the loan obviously, and that will take me a while, a long while! But this goes far past students and their loans for me, this goes to the very heart of our political system. Direct protest is one of the most powerful weapons that any member of the public in this Country has, it's also being slowly eroded, see the no protest zones around parliament, but that's a different point. People say that you don't need to protest, you can just vote the government out at the next election, far far easier said than done under our electoral system, which in my opinion is broken. The concept of safe seats makes me shudder in a democracy. This is why protesting is so important, stand up and make your voice heard, if you don't who will. I'm going to start ranting in a minute, if I haven't already , so I'll leave it there.

[UpBy5]

Thanks Alsheels.

The way I look at it, I've got a degree which is essentially worth toilet paper, but I was extremely lucky in that my parents funded it. I will have to pay back the loan obviously, and that will take me a while, a long while!

But this goes far past students and their loans for me, this goes to the very heart of our political system. Direct protest is one of the most powerful weapons that any member of the public in this Country has, it's also being slowly eroded, see the no protest zones around parliament, but that's a different point.

People say that you don't need to protest, you can just vote the government out at the next election, far far easier said than done under our electoral system, which in my opinion is broken. The concept of safe seats makes me shudder in a democracy. This is why protesting is so important, stand up and make your voice heard, if you don't who will.

I'm going to start ranting in a minute, if I haven't already , so I'll leave it there.

Rant away, man! Take a look westward across the pond. I guess youv'e heard about the Tea Party people, largely hate mongers of every stripe & color, the spokes-persons for whom never let the facts interfere with their agenda. However, loud, coarse yelling got it done for them. They got the radical right elected last November. If the normally well-behaved folks in England don't find some equivalent of the US A.M radio networks &/or FoxNoise TV to put their case out there, "nothing" will contiune to happen.

Speaking of rants....

UpBy5

[Guest]

Latest thing that has just come out for Hampshire in regards the "Academy's" (senior schools 11-17 yr olds). Hampshire want all schools to become an academy. Currently part of the (school) budget goes to support special education needs, this covers disabled at all levels physical, blind, deaf in their major components, mental within their capabilities for inclusion that covers learning disorders (AHAD) and more, speech and language, etc. Within county the support team ensures that the school IS supporting the child (legal requirement), has the correct budget and class resources support. As an Academy the school will have (current planning) the whole budget and will be able to pick and choose what they think is appropriate and budget out overheads they do not wish to pay for or those students will not get a placement. "Connections" youth service for job advisory and guidance is to be cut by 2/3rds, 200 staff to go! UK members are well aware of local council cut backs - always been something to cutback for many years but it's looking more bigtime now. The big question is if you have say 2 million unemployed is it not cheaper to pay support for those 2 million (better if it was less) than have say 4 million unemployed? Suddenly we realise we have 2 million more people not paying taxes to support the country. It feels like a rerun of the Thatcher years. Much of the whole world is in this recession but there seems to be a race to be the first out and Damn everyone else. Sorry maybe I'm getting TOO political. Al

[JNR]

Alsheels, I really don't believe you are getting too political. People everywhere are facing identical situations. Cast your vision around the EU and take a close look at all of the governments that are on the verge of total collapse because they're out of money, drained by welfare programs, being held up by unions and citizens that believe the "you owe me" mentality. The choices aren't many. Mainly, in the final analysis, they boil down to just a couple: cut back, live within your means and try to payoff accrued debt or dissolve government and plunge into anarchy with the law of the jungle prevailing. It only stands to reason, due to human nature, that those of us that are living on government handouts and programs will be the first to feel the pinch, gather in the streets and demand "what is rightfully ours" and scream "off with their heads" while destroying the vary source of our survival and toppling the economic system into total chaos. (Makes sense to me -- as long as I have a good supply of ammunition and the means of using it.) Governments all over the globe, regardless of the form, are facing identical problems. And, "their aint much they can do about it because there isn't anyone left to bail them out." So, regardless of the form of government, people living under them must realize that many of the welfare programs they're currently enjoying, are going to disappear. And, when they do, there will be "blood in the streets." But, when you're broke, you're broke. When there isn't anything more to eat, there isn't any more to eat and eventually, after the revolution and governments are overthrown, there still won't be anything to eat. So, pay your money and take your choice. Cut back on things that aren't absolutely necessary and that can reasonably be eliminated, take the money and apply it where it's really necessary, or continue current levels of spending and face total collapse. Which ever way you choose to go, your life is about to change -- and everyone all over the world is about to feel the pain....

[frisbee201]

To be honest, I don't think it's really possible to be TOO political. As long as you aren't planning illegal acts against those who disagree with you, which of course you are not Al , then I think surely the more well informed you are politically about the society, and on a larger scale, the world you live in the better. Whether people want to admit it or not, politics affects just about every aspect of your life and the way you live, it may depress you somewhat the more you learn about certain system, it certainly does me, but knowing as much as you can about the system we live in will always beat ignorance. Regarding your post JNR, I agree with you in a way, it's obvious to me in the UK, I know less about the situation in other specific Countries but would imagine it to be similar, that some SEVERE belt tightening is obviously required. I do not enjoy, at all, the cuts being made by our current government, but I can understand why they are being made. The thing that is bugging me, and although I'm trying not to stray off the original topic I'm going to a little sorry, is the employment situation. The government keeps saying the private sector will take up the slack left by all the cuts in the public sector. Sorry but that's simply not happening yet, and until it does a lot of people are in trouble. I got made redundant through no fault of my own from the civil service, I'm now in a crappy minimum wage job have relocated. It is not my fault, I was good at my previous job, but it's bloody hard to find a new one. UpBy5, thanks for the vote of confidence , if I knew how to thank your post, or Al's or JNR's I would haha. The Tea party scares and amuses me in equal measure. I hear and see interviews with people from it and just get the impression...'how do you get up in the morning?', it genuinely boggles my mind how people can get what I personally see as such a skewed sense of whats right and wrong. But hey, a lot of people probably think that about me too . PS: I'm sorry, I know my punctuation is disgraceful.

[roniheels]

In all of our cultures we're told that to better ourselves and our lives, we must continue with our education, whether it be college, technical school, or vocational schools. Yet tuition continue to rise and any type of financial aid is harder to get and even harder to pay back. And it seems if there is any area that local government can take aim and make cuts it seems to always be education.

Many years ago the college (small, private, not state funded) I attended threatened to close its doors. There was a student and alumni protest (not nearly the magnitude of the one in London) but it too received media attention. The out come of it was that the President of the college at that time was relieved of his duties and a new person was hired. He proceeded to do some popular, and even some unpopular things to get the college back on its feet and regain its historical status (the college is over a hundred years old). It is a thriving college today.

I guess I find it so ironic and conflicting that we're told to act, plan, live, survive smarter, and finance for education has a large target on its back.