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Here is my high heeled (actually mid-heeled) buddy from church. Our children almost, but not quite, overlap in age.

Exactly! I don’t think in terms of numbers but in the aesthetic. What I see as stylish and wearable heels are probably going to be around 10cm and what I see as imperious and elegant are probably going to be around 12cm. Specific measurements don’t come into it. I want to learn to walk gracefully in 12cm boots because they’re imperious and elegant, not because they’re 12cm

Trying to wick it up this morning, can I walk a mile (1.6 km) in these pumps? Evidently, I can. They are the size 38 equivalent of 11.3 cm. However, I won't be able to walk a second mile in them until and unless I get them reheeled. Look at the wear after only one mile!

These are smoking hot heels….. You look great in them…. Would have loved to see you walk in them!!

I think you sum things up very well, especially given that 12cm (or any other 'desirable' height) will vary with one's shoe size, as has been discussed. I would only add that some wearers will enjoy the challenge of a particular heel height because (a) it is physically demanding; and/or (b) it is 'daring' or stimulating, if a male, to wear what would normally be female footwear. All in all, it is rather like considering why people would want to climb Everest - the exact measured height of which is of little importance compared with the effort and achievement of even an incomplete ascent.

@mlroseplant Sometimes it's hard to believe that what is the most normal thing for us, is something that other people don't know anything about. The one thing most people know (or think to know) about heels is: They're painful! I get looks of disbelief everytime I tell someone that they're not painful if you do some things right. Believe it or not, I'm actually also the type to who heel height (the number) doesn't matter that much 😉 For me it's just about the look and aesthetic, but over time with wearing, shopping and looking for heels you simply get an idea of the look a certain heel height has. And of course here on hhplace you need some numbers to make clear what you're speaking of as it's all about heels, but a 5 cm heel just isn't the same as a 13 cm heel 😉 @Shyheels A little bit of movement really helps. It's funny how long standing time affects us differently: I feel it in the balls of my feet. I feel it in my calves when walking in my 13+ cm boots. It's great to share the experiences with others who are just as "crazy" 😀

I reckon that you're probably right. In fact, as part of my basement cleaning out exercise, mentioned elsewhere, I made the decision to let some old favorites go--my Sofft Calvados sandals--because they are too low. I had already gotten rid of a silver pair last year because of deterioration, but these two pair were perfectly wearable. It's just that I never wear them anymore, and I can't foresee a time when I will wear them again. It's hard to tell from this photograph, but they are covered in a fairly thick layer of dust, and that influenced my decision to donate them. They are effectively less than 3 inch heels, or 7 cm, and that is just too low for my taste these days, at least in that style of heel. The combination of narrow heels with less than towering height makes them pretty much the last choice for everything. I used to wear them to things like farmer's markets where I was afraid that anything taller might result in my discomfort or worse. Now I don't worry about that, so I guess one can increase one's ideal heel height eventually.

A trick to photographing interiors so your perspective looks right is to crouch down a bit and have the camera lens at what would be about mid-chest level instead of standing fully upright and holding the camera up to your face

I think I can say that I'm making progress toward getting to 12 cm. Although I am not there yet, I have decided to take a different tack towards getting there. Instead of going for long distance in lower shoes, I have found that wearing higher shoes for shorter distances has gotten me somewhere. I put on a pair of 10.5 cm pumps yesterday morning and walked a mere 1.6 km, same as I did last week. After about 400 m, I found that I got into a rhythm and they felt much more natural. After that, I put on these mauve patent 10.5 cm pumps for church, and I wound up wearing them the entire day with no problems. I didn't get a chance to snap my usual picture with the tripod and the remote, so I had my son take this photo in the garage after we came back from grocery shopping. Now I know why I keep the tripod about half a meter tall for taking these shoe photos. You can't really see my shoes when he's standing up full height, can you?

Yeah, we are guilty of dressing-up-our-infant thing. We dressed her up as a turtle and took her to the local lake and snapped a few pictures. She never turned her head towards the camera, but photographing infants can be like that. Sadly with her infant heels, we never got a picture of her wearing them and she outgrew them quickly. It is funny though because she is now twelve and still loves her blanket. She takes it everywhere, it always being in her backpack. But having lost an infant once, I don't care. I don't care if she lugs her blanket down the aisle as she is getting married. If it makes her feel secure, what do I care. There are a lot worse things in the world she could always want.

I love it! People dress their infants up al the time in outfits, especially "mommy $ me". You just took it to another (artistic) level. These should be prized photos in her baby book.

People should really mind their own business.

@CrushedVamp I can totally imagine the people's reactions. Sure it's not common for a baby to wear heels, but as you say they were just for fun and she couldn't walk anyway. There are so many other things that parents put on their babys just for their own fun and why not, as long as it doesn't hurt the baby it's fine in my opinion.

Ok, let's talk about more pleasant things, then. I ran across a picture I took over four years ago depicting a "setback" heel vs. one that curves to the front somewhat. Shown in the front of this photo is a true setback heel, which comes straight down to the floor from the back of the shoe. At the back of the photo is a curved, traditional shaped heel. I don't know if it has a special name. This is the style that I believe @luvmaryjanez likes the most. In the middle of the photo is something in between, which is what 90% of the stilettos I own are. Some say that setback heel is simply there to make the heel appear taller than it actually is, and I suppose it's true. Our favorite Christian Louboutin certainly took advantage of this illusion, to his great success. CL makes very few shoes where the heel doesn't come straight down from the back of the shoe, and most makers have followed suit. I prefer a little curvature, but do not necessarily prefer the 1960s style of more extreme curvature. Steve Madden lets you have it either way. My favorite Daisie pumps have a slight curve to the heel, whereas the Vala model has a straight, setback heel. Otherwise, the two models are identical. There are those who claim that the setback heel is much harder to walk in, and that you should always choose a heel that comes down more toward the center of your heel. I have personally never found this to be a factor at all, but then again, I've never had a lower heeled shoe with a setback heel. Perhaps it really does make a difference in the 2-3" range, but once you get above 4" I cannot tell the difference, other than looks. I will say it is somewhat easier to accidentally catch your heel walking down the stairs in setback heels, particularly if the stairs have those plastic edge protectors on them. Those are the worst!

Sometimes it is just plain all-out angst against high heels. The other day I found some high heels I made for my daughter when she was an infant. It was just a fun, silly thing to do. Her mother wears and loves high heels so I thought it would be fun to make a little pair for my infant daughter and take her to church so mother and daughter “matched”, so to speak. I was shocked at how angry people were about it, saying it was weird and just plain wrong to put high heels on an infant. This even came from some women that typically wear high heels at church. Not to mention either; this was twelve years ago when wearing heels was more accepted. The only thing I can think of is that THEY somehow correlated high-heel wearing to “relations” type of things? That makes no sense though since toddlers wear kitten heels, tights and dresses to church all the time so what is wrong with tiny heels for an infant? It was not like we were promoting bad posture: she was three months old and could not even walk! Maybe it is me? I realize I think counter to a lot of people of this world anyway. But for me and her mother, it was just a fun thing to dress our daughter in. We were both surprised at how angry people were about it though. You can be the judge though.

I like to cook too and tend to do it in my 12cm boots. I’m up and standing and moving around the galley so it feels more productive than simply pacing back and forth. Standing for an hour though, while working at my laptop, was challenging. I could really feel it in my calves. I felt like I’d been hill walking all afternoon! I think of it like taking up ice skating - new athletic challenges. As to why, well we all wear something in our feet and high heels are elegant. I love the aesthetics of a 12cm stiletto boot and would like to be able to wear them with the kind of panache one needs to carry off heels that high. It’s one thing to admire the aesthetics but if you can’t walk in them well you might as well stay in the sidelines. To walk in them well requires a lot of practice and dedication - and if you’re as lucky as we are, friends to help and encourage you along the way. I feel very fortunate to be sharing this challenge with such experienced heel wearers as you and @higherheels

Yeah, the "life hacks" have gotten out of hand, but it seems that we are more about clicks than substance these days. The thing is, there are so many "heel hack" videos out there, I'm just wondering who is watching them? I certainly don't see anybody attempting to wear heels much these days. I know that we are in a kind of bubble, and even amongst people who like high heels, and maybe even wear them occasionally, we are a tiny minority. This point was driven home just a few days ago when I told one of my female friends that we had a challenge in our little group to work on wearing higher heels. I told her my personal goal was 5 inch (or the scaled equivalent of 12 cm). Her first reaction was "Oh my God, why?" The only thing that made any sense to her was an analogy to dance, and the athletic challenges that go along with that. The other thing that surprised me is that nobody really thinks about heel height as specifically as we do. If it looks cute or aesthetically pleasing to them, exact heel height doesn't matter all that much. And then let's get into steepness--forget it! It took me a while to explain to my friend that I, a size 9, had to have a taller heel to maintain the same shape compared to a size 7, the standard. It is not something that had ever crossed her mind in 57 years. I didn't even dare bring up the fact that 4 inch heels don't actually make you 4 inches taller! @Shyheels Standing for a whole hour in 12 cm! That is quite an accomplishment. I'm not sure I could do it. Maybe I'll have to try. I have a whole pile of shirts to iron.

Looking closer at the second method I can also see the imperfections with the measurement points. I measured (to be fair my husband did, because as mlroseplant also said it's difficult without assistance) as if I worn heels - from the sole to the end of the imaginary heel. That's the only way it makes sense to me. I too am convinced that you can increase your perfect heel height with practice. Nobody was born in heels, and some might be more familiar with heels from the beginning than others. But if I think back of my days when I started wearing heels regularly (where I actually already had experience in some higher heels, but didn't wear them all the time), I went with lower ones like 6 or 7 cm for everyday wear. Now I'm as comfortable for everyday wear in 9 or 10 cm heels. And I'm also sure that if my first heels had a 13 cm heel, I would've not been able to properly walk in them 😉 It would be interesting to see if the resting angle as measured in the formula improved with wearing heels more and higher. I think it did. @mlroseplant I understand your decision, I also don't like low stiletto heels that much, the proportions look off. All my lowest heels are block heels, a much more balanced look in my eyes. @Shyheels That's great! Standing is a hard discipline. If I practice at home it's also often while standing and cooking, there I can always feel how the kitchen is too low. @CrushedVamp I also think there's too much of these "hacks", which in my mind shouldn't be even called so. It feels like sometimes they're just made up for getting attention. I can generally see that many people need the easiest way everywhere. They're probably the target of such things. I already seen people asking AI for such simple things that any kid could answer within seconds. Maybe the fact alone that we like heels is what differs us from that. Because heels aren't the easiest way. But they're certainly more fun, and sometimes also challenging 😉

After a little thought, I think these sorts of informative signs are part of the overall larger disturbing picture of society today. Not just in the wearing of high heels, but in almost everything, and that is there is some sort of secret handshake, some sort of “hack” where all things difficult to do suddenly becomes easy if you just have the right information. These signs or “hacks” like the images I posted about determining ideal high heel height, lets a person know the easy, secret, missing information that enables people to do something hard… like wearing high heels… become suddenly easy. And it is just with high heels. Goodness knows there is a video on Youtube somewhere stating I have been hand-washing my stemware wrong for the last forty years. And wiping my own bottom, yeah there are six videos on how to do that properly. Yes... look it up. Now that is something I have been doing fine since I was a toddler, but yep... there is a video telling how we are all doing that wrong. After reflection I don't think it is not some sort of magical measurement… wait for it… it is in the practicing of wearing high heels that makes a pair of shoes more comfortable. I am not saying adding in heel cushions, or heel grips, or having larger blocky heels cannot help. Of course they can, as those are tools available, but its this overall thought that some magic physical measurement is going to lead to the Holy Grail of High Heels that is misunderstood, but also what so many people want. (Not members on here)

I put in an hour of working standing up in my 12cm stiletto boots. It was a challenge in a couple ways, not least of which was the extra height it gave me, which made my kitchen counter feel awfully low and so rather awkward to write at my laptop. on the brighter side, standing in them for an hour was a great way to become used to the height, steeper angle and to develop the balance needed to walk gracefully in them. It’s not putting in the miles like @mlroseplant but I think it will be useful. I certainly felt it in my calves after an hour of standing in those boots!

As a child I was a huge fan of go-go boots! I wished I could have a pair of those shiny white boots - it’s what set me on the course to liking women’s boots snd heels! I still fancy a pair of go-go boots if only I could find nice ones …

I’m quite certain one’s ideal heel height can be increased - I think we are all proof of that! While I’ve not mastered 12cm stilettos, practicing in them has made walking in 10cm stilettos feel easy and natural. The difference is noticeable. Likewise @higherheels is now able to get around in her Hot Chicks and her new 13+cm boots through practice. Speaking of practice my walk into town for groceries was an adventure - one I took in low/standard heel knee boots because of all the ice. The towpath and sidewalks were like skating rinks. And so I tottered feebly in my low heeled knee boots and pretended to myself I was in 12cm stilettos. I’m not so sure it’s going to help in terms of actual practice in them, but it made the mental journey into town more fun and engaging

Yes, I agree. The more and more I look at it, I'm not convinced about the second method, either. At least not as exactly stated in this chart. First of all, you about need an assistant to really do it correctly. I think I used a Stanley tape measure extended out and just kind of eyeballed it from afar. But secondly, I'm looking at the marks on the diagram of the foot, and it doesn't make any sense to me. I think the first measurement is too far up on the toes and the second is too far back on the heel, giving an artificially high number. Thirdly, it doesn't take into account toe flexibility, which is kind of important once you reach towering heights. I'm hoping, as are the rest of the participants in this thread, that your actual ideal heel height can be increased with practice and the force of will.

That's how you know when a pair of boots fits well, and are engineered for actually walking in...Best feeling ever

My best effort for walking in heels is just under 20k steps while I was wearing a pair of grey suede OTK boots with 7 to 8cm heels. The boots are very well made, fit beautifully and logging that number of steps was easy. I pretty much forgot I was in heels

I found the same with the first equation. Kind of nonsensical. For the second I can see some logic. I have very flexible ankles and so my ideal heel height for that formula was something over 12cm, but I won’t be ordering any Hot Chicks anytime soon. I would love to master 12cm heels and hopefully will eventually do so, but I would have to say my ideal heel height in terms of intuitive use and ease would be nearer 10cms - even if I prefer the aesthetics of a 12cm stiletto

I am not off to a great start with the walking, distance-wise, but I'm glad I did not attempt a second mile in those high pumps. I think I probably would have ruined them. It's very early days, though. As long as I don't make laziness a habit. And now for something completely different. . . I was attempting to clean up a portion of my basement yesterday, and I ran across some photos from my university, specifically a couple different graduating classes. Flipping through, I noticed that more than half of the girls were wearing heels, which is kind of what I remember for dressy occasions, but exactly zero of them were what we would consider "high" heels. The one girl I knew who might have been wearing shoes that approached four inch, well naturally you can't see her shoes in my old photo. Another girl that I remember who wore heels a lot (several times a week, and even for more casual dressing) was dressed smartly in black patent pumps which had a whopping heel height of maybe 2 1/2 inches. What I used to think was excitingly attractive is a big yawn now. I'm ruined for life.

I definitely don't get the first heel height formula. It seems like a bunch of random numbers that sound like they mean something, but in fact have nothing to do with anything. I also find it amusing that the number they come up with for this model is 5.2 cm, but she is depicted wearing shoes likely twice that tall, even if you discount for the platform. The second formula, on the other hand, I have actually tried myself, and the last time I did it, probably two years ago, I came up with 4 inches or 10 cm, which seems about right to me. It would be interesting to try it on somebody who says they can't wear heels, and see if there's any actual science in it. It would also be interesting to go back in time and try this test before I ever started wearing heels vs. what it is now to see if the resting angle of my feet to my ankles has changed because of wearing heels rather than any natural tendency I might have.

The tips on my stiletto booths - both 10cm and 12cm are plastic. The tips on my 9cm black suede OTK boots (beautiful custom made boots) - are much better, rubber I think. They are beautiful to walk in.

It really sums up! 8-10 km everyday is also quite a lot. I really have to track one week with my phone to get an idea of hos much I walk. But nowhere close to you, that's for sure 😀

@mlroseplant Good job, 1,6 km in these pumps is great! @CrushedVamp That's interesting, I immediately had to try this out. With the first formula my heel height is 4,3 cm. With the second one it's around 11,7 cm. I don't really get how the first formula could make sense, it's all about the proportions between body length and feet length. The second one makes more sense to me. If I convert my result of 11,7 cm to standard size that would be like 11,9 cm or so. That's a height that I can walk perfectly fine in, but a lower heel is definitely more comfortable. If you interpret your perfect heel height as what you can wear well, but not for everyday and 5 km walks, this formula could give you an idea I think.

They were not really a big deal, other than I was super slow, or I felt like I was super slow. It took me about a third of the way before I got into my rhythm. Normally, it takes me approximately 20 minutes to walk a mile in 10 cm heels. I should have timed myself, but I didn't instead. It didn't take me as much as 25 minutes to walk the mile, but it sure felt like it. The heel tip wear is not uncommon for stock plastic heel tips. Rubber tips will last at least 10 times as long.

It will probably shock you! This is in no way doing so in high heels, but I walk for exercise. I typically walk 5-7 (8 to 10 km) miles per day. Well my phone tracks me and since deciding to walk daily no matter the weather, my mileage shot right up. Sure, it is only 35-40 (56-60 km) miles per week, but that equates to a 160 (257 km) miles a month, or around 2000 (3200) miles a year. It does not sound far, but for me that is like walking from Maine to Colorado. For you that is like walking from Berlin to Kuwait. And all by just by walking a few miles a day. So it really adds up more than you would think.

They look very nice! And well done for walking a mile in them! But I think that’s the drawback with lofty stilettos - the quick wear! Bitter cold and snow has been making my suede chunky heeled OTK boots a much more attractive option than my 12cm stilettos these days. Getting up in the cold and dark - sunrise here is at 8:30 - and building a fire with frost on the inside of the windows calls for warm boots rather than lofty ones!

That’s really nice. Fun to have a friend with whom you can chat about heels

Your getting bolder in your shopping. Next time go straight in look and ask. Don't wait until there are less customers. I wear heels all the time so when I go into a shop they know I'm looking for myself. Many times I get better service because they view me as a higher chance of a 'sale' than women just looking.

Yes, that's absolutely true for me 🙂

Men's fashions tend to be puritanical - sombre tones in office wear, plain blocky colours in anything else, and absolutely devoid of any sort of personal theatre. Conformity is the overriding theme, not self expression. And certainly not 'fun'. And as far as footwear goes, sensible shoes only. We're supposed to admire heels on the feet of women while scorning such frippery for ourselves as somehow beneath our masculine dignity. There is so much wrong with that thinking I scarcely know where to begin ...

OK guys for a overdue update. When I arrived there, the day before it snowed and as I was told by the locals it was an unusually heavy snow for December and a lot colder, and then the second day an even more unusual snow storm was predicted for Wednesday. So any heeling was off the books, I barely saw any heels on the street if any and all were blocks and fairly low which makes sense. However it was not a total loss, I was close to 2 malls downtown and I walked there and started stalking the stores waiting until there were no people or few people inside, went straight for the high heels that I liked and started browsing, not the usual go to the men's side and side eye the beautiful shoes while holding the ugly, heavy, uninspired bricks we are supposed to wear as shoes , lol. After a few asks if they could help I gathered my courage and asked for one in my size. I was at a store for a brand I did not know before I was in Canada, l'Intervalle. I was holding the most gorgeous, sexy and amazing pumps, specially the stilleto heel was shaped so beautifully and sexy, and was the thinnest stilleto I had ever seen which I adore. I am not exaggerating when I say they were about 2.5X2.5 mm (in between 1/16" and 1/8") at the heel tip, so freaking cool and amazing. I fell in love instantly. So I saw a a beautiful pair in 9 camel patent and asked for back patent, they checked and had none, let me clarify they had none on clearance but hey had it regular price I was not going to spend 90$ for a pair of pumps just to wear at the hotel, but hoped maybe a pair on clearance +40% off was ok. So asked for the other shoe for the camel patent in a 9 and they did not fit, these run very small, I am usually 8.5 and sometimes 9 but these were tiny. There as just a guy and a girl tending to the store, tried to get the girl to help me but she was on other things (I know I know, but I felt safer asking to try to a girl not a guy bit the bullet and asked anyway), I asked to try and he did not flinch just brought them and tried a 9 and they did not fit, then asked for a 10 to try on the size and he brought normal black leather and I tried them on in the store in public. I put them on, the girl was looking casually at me and it seemed to me she was surprised I was able to put them on sitting down easily then getting up and walking around. They were a tiny bit higher than expected but I still managed to walk gracefully, check myself in the mirror. The guy was completely unfazed. I said hold in one sec and removed my heavy coat, my sweater so I was dressed business casual straight from the office dark pant suit formal striped light blue and white shirt and black heels, looked amazing (I was so in the moment that I did not think about taking pictures). I removed the shoes and asked what else they had on sale and my size on that model (Teeva for those curious), he told me none on that store and they we closing soon, but I could go to another store site 5 minutes away or if I came back tomorrow they could have them sent to try and see them. I thanked him and told him I might or try to go to the other store. They girl went a little out of her way to help me out s and say good bye since they closed the gate, I had not noticed. So the next day I went to the next mall, there were more stores, Aldo, Steve Madden, call it spring and the other l'Intervalle. These stores closed much later than the other so they were busier at that time, and once again I stalked the stores. I walked in to Steve madden, started browsing the high heel pumps, holding them looking at them, and a sales girl approached, looked at me my feet and asked if I were a 9, she knew, caught off guard just said yes, she then said that they had very few I that size on the models I was looking at, she showed me others with a lower heel and she noticed it was not what I was looking for, she the said let me check what we have on your size, she came back and told me they had 8.5 and 10 and if I wanted to try, I agreed she brought patent black pumps hey we're too small and too big, while I was trying them on she brought lower heeled patent black pumps in 9to try and they fit like a glove amazingly comfortable but lowish for what I like I guess around 3" and also too expensive for this trip if I was not able to wear them. I did walk around with them a little after removing all the warm clothes I was dressed similarly to the day before, she complimented me on my look and walking skills, but also admited that higher heels would look much much better and if I wanted she could call me when they had more stock in a week or 2, black Friday had emptied their stock. I declined since I was leaving in a few days and thanked her a lot. In the store a woman trying on kitten heel boots just smiled and nodded I did not notice anyone else noticing me, maybe they did but I was on cloud nine on an amazing high. I then went to Aldo, same story walked straight into the high heel pumps, asked what was on sale and nothing I liked then walked out, 2 pumps were beautiful but not on sale and the store was busy so clerks were all around the place and did not want bother if I was not purchasing anything. Next stop was call it spring they had a beautiful pair of d'Orsay pumps, asked for black patent in size 9 the girl checked and told me they only had a dark brown which I did not like at all although they were cheap and would have bought them for the hotel, too bad, she tried selling them to me that the color was beautiful. I argued the shoe was beautiful but did not like the color. Tried looking at other styles and nothing caught my attention. Maybe a pair stiletto booties until I looked at them closer and I saw the had the stitches all trough the point and middle of the show which I hate but common on boots but that is a rant for another time. Finally the last store again L'intervalle but a different store from the previous day. I saw this one had 40% off for the whole store, and I darted straight to the heels I loved, they were right next to the cashier, a young girl, I stated asking if they the 40% also applied to on sale items, she said yes and asked what they on sale on that model size 10, she looked on the computer and said only off white patent and then showed me other choices with lower heels and told me that women often found these more comfortable I just agreed but said I wanted the other one because they were prettier, and asked to try them, she looked puzzled at first and told her they were for me, and proceeded to look for them came back and told me they were at the other store, and she could run to get them. I said maybe to try any other color first to make sure they fit so as to not make her run for them. For patent usually is a lot stiffer than regular leather so I wanted to try them as well like I dkde yesterday, she looked and said she had none on that size, I asked what else was on that size on the other store and if the discount also applied, she said yes, checked and called, however they were starting to close I did not notice the time. I just said I might come back tomorrow. She let me check everything we have on your size so if you come back tomorrow you have a better idea, just being a good sales person. Not much just 2 more choices. I thanked her and she kinda eagerly said she said her shift starts at 4pm and she would gladly run to the other store to get me those. I smiled back and left. The next two days were a lot colder and did not want to leave the hotel room after work so there ends my adventure, not what I hoped for but still great. I have to admit that I used all of my almost non existent literary talents to recount as accurately as possible while making it fun. Now to be wait for my next trip in a few months to try again. Thanks for listening to my ramblings.

Great Heels and Outfit….

I might have taken @mlroseplant out of context too, at least in terms of motivation. I know he tracks his kilometers walking in heels and it is only natural when you do that, to want to increase the number. In that context, when looking at choosing between flats and high heels, it is only natural to see wearing flats as a missed opportunity to increase your overall kilometers in high heels per year. For others... like my wife... shoes are part of the outfit, and having the ability to make it formal, or informal, is part of the fun. I side with her in some sense on that because as a traditional man that dresses as such, as we talked about on another part of this forum about jazzing up the male wardrobe, I am a bit jealous of her because I think my choices of fashion and footwear are a little lackluster.