Firefox Posted October 23, 2002 Share Posted October 23, 2002 Wow, you have some sneaky tricks there Lion! I'm not that worried about what other people think, and wouldn't confront them about it. I think that could certainly provoke a negative reaction which might spread, because perhaps the word will get round you are a bit concerned or parenoid about what people think, which may have the adverse effect of your integrating them naturally into your environment. That's not meant to be a criticism though. I think if you ask anyone about you clothes/appearance, they nearly always say they like it, so that's why I never ask unless they volunteer a comment. At the end of the day, I don't care too much what people think. But if someone says they don't like it, and the reason is intolerance, or they are not used to seeing it (ignorance), then naturally I'm going to think less of that person as a free thinking individual. It doesn't mean to say I can't get on with them in other ways though. I'm sure there are probably many views of others I diasgree with, and not for any logical reason too, although I do my best to avoid that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trolldeg Posted October 24, 2002 Share Posted October 24, 2002 I'd rather forget the whole discussing I just read. I advise anyone to do the same. Now my 2 cents: Maybe this thread was started in order to get general approvement from women. In my opinion we men will never get it. Why? Because men are men, and women are women. Although we all are humans, men and women are physically different and therefore 'think' different. Lion what du you base that on? we think different because we are raised different, not because we are physically different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Posted October 24, 2002 Share Posted October 24, 2002 Trolldeg said that it's because we're raised differently! Boy, did he get it right!! If you have been brought up to be more open minded and toelrant then your outlook to life is generally an easy come, easy go way of thinking and nothing really phases you. As I have mentioned a few times now, it's the close minded people who are afraid of change that anybody wearing anything outside the restricted view of these people is a deviant of some description. My view is the deviants are the closed minds! They are the ones who cause all of the troubles that are faced by anyone with a style or flair that they wish to express in an outward fashion. Educating these people is not an option, as the problem, I fear, is insurmountable. So, we'll wear what we like and if others don't like it, tough, they're not wearing it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lion Posted October 24, 2002 Share Posted October 24, 2002 what du you base that on? we think different because we are raised different, not because we are physically different. Indeed we all are different, in fact unique, because we are raised differently (I agree), meet different people, and have different experiences. But that's not my point. My point is men and woman are different because (and I'm drilling down very deep now) we have different chromosomes, different concentrations of hormones etc. Let's not forget we all are just walking chemical plants, and everything influences everything. Thoughts are nothing more than chemical and electric reactions in your brain (the most complex chemical plant there is). That's one of the reasons women tend to think more 'emotional' and men tend to think more 'rational'. And yes, men can be emotional and women can be rational. And please take notice, I'm not thinking gays, transsexuals, crossdressers etc are some kind of 'error' of nature, definately not. It's just that men and women, biological and evolutional, have different 'goals' in life. Fortunaly mankind got enough brainpower to 'overcome' those 'limitations', that's why society is so colorfull nowadays. Now to the point. I think this all explains (at least in part) why women (and men) in general tend to not approve of men in heels. Lion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firefox Posted October 24, 2002 Share Posted October 24, 2002 It's all getting slightly off topic, but we're just keeping it warm for the next lady who is going to post her views I suppose Men/womens characters and thinkings are a combination of nature and nurture IMO. Of these I think nurture is the most important. Take a girl from birth, abuse her, and bring her up to hunt and act like a savage; She'll be just that... a savage with many characteristics we might more normally associate with males. Give her a pair of high heels and she'll add them to the pile of firewood she uses to keep warm. We have to be trained to act the way we do in a very artificial world, and that includes being plugged with 100's of pictures of beautiful women wearing high heels at a very early age. Given the same passive kind of nurture, the biological differences between women and men may have more influence, but even then there will be a very broad spectrum of behavioural patterns within any one biological gender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
texasbumpkin Posted October 25, 2002 Share Posted October 25, 2002 In regards to men in heels I am all for it. If I can wear a man's flannel shirt, and wolverine workboots (have them for work) then why can't men wear heels?? They are only shoes. Plus I have to admit that it makes certain areas look nice....hehehe....My boyfriend wears them and I really like it...it makes his legs look nice, his butt look nice, plus it makes him a lot taller....not that he is short...but back to the subject, I think that men in heels is great I am all for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan (the original) Posted October 26, 2002 Share Posted October 26, 2002 Gosh, I can't let Firefox down. Since we're talking about a savage woman as the result of her up-bringing, I might ask who "taught" the high heel wearing beast that tore into and tried to rape my friend? You see, on Oct 8 Francis insisted there was no contempt or hate on the forums for women who refused to comply and that it was nonsense to suggest there was. Than in the same post he said all such things were edited. If it wasn't here then why was it edited? I think that falls under the heading of "closed minded"! Lion has touched on a bit of reality and truth of which I have to agree with. The world is a pretty beautiful place (I do a lot of traveling), it's the people that tend to mess it up. In Lion's thoughts about what people say to our face and what they say behind our backs is probably the most honest thing I've seen in a while. Certainly in my life in heels it's happened to me and I'm not talking about what's taken place on these forums. (though it has happened) It comes under, "I would never say it to his / her face but............". I can safely say I've never been in a room or anything else full of women all with the same opinion on anything. If that's the impression someone has, at least a few of those in the room fell over laughing when it was safe. I might refer back to my post of May 26th (page 4). That's as honest as it comes. No where in that post did I make any threats, attacks, or name calling. I just don't want any part of it. Now, if the intent of the responding participants wasn't to impose or demand that I comply with the standards set forth, what was it. The only response should have been, "I'm sorry you feel that way but I don't think you're being fair" or something to that affect. Instead I was accused of starting a war. I refused to change. The closed minded idea that keeps being tossed about is absolutey laughable. It doesn't seem anyone here is open minded about a traditional woman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trolldeg Posted October 26, 2002 Share Posted October 26, 2002 It doesn't seem anyone here is open minded about a traditional woman. I just don't want any part of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubba136 Posted October 26, 2002 Share Posted October 26, 2002 I hate broccoli. My wife likes it. All three of my children like it. For the past 27 years, my wife has tried to convince me that I should like it. And, you'd think that after so many years, she'd get tired of trying to convince me to like it or I would become resentful at her constant insistence that I change my taste. She's aware of my dislikes. And, when she passes the plate of broccoli along with some kind of comment about how healthy it is, I just politely give her my well used, time tested, response (complete with a nice smile) -- no thank you -- and set the plate on the table. I believe, Susan, the same can be said about our awareness of your stand on men wearing high heels. Don't you think it's time to just say"no thank you" and pass the comment along? Put the shovel down. Quit digging that hole. The longer you hold the shovel, the deeper the hole gets. 90% of the people that post on this board deeply respect you for your religious and traditional values. You know I do. Why let those that don't share your views bother you? You have significant contributions to make to this board. Rather than reiterating your stand on men in heels, let's move on and give us the benefit of your vast experience with high heels? Being mentally comfortable in your own mind is the key to wearing heels in public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firefox Posted October 26, 2002 Share Posted October 26, 2002 What's a "traditional woman"? Women and men are their own free thinking, free acting, beings. Why do we have to encourage people to conform to some perceived norm?The "traditional man" of the eighteenth C wore high heels. The "traditional woman" of the mid 20th C may have done likewise, and was most likely expected to do other "traditional" things such as slaving behind the kitchen sink. Neither concept has any relevance to the 21st Century. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Posted October 26, 2002 Share Posted October 26, 2002 Susan, in my post I did, indeed, say that some posts get edited, but all those edited posts are then given an addendum to why they were edited. And, on the subject on being 'taught', who 'taught' anyone to wear heels or did they just decide to wear them. Perseverance on any subject will teach a person what they need, so anyone can be 'taught' by themselves. Plus it's in the individuals nature whether they attack, some can control this urge, some can't. I'm not condoning this persons actions, far from it. Put this person in front of me and you'll see exactly what I think of men who beat on women for whatever reason. On the subject of 'traditional woman', can you define this because the idea of a traditional woman changes according to the individual. So what I think of a traditional woman may be completely different from the next person. And, no, I am not a male chauvanist. My wife loves getting her hands mucky under car bonnets and landscape gardening, she spends a lot of her time in scruffy trousers and relishes the idea of getting covered in mud, does this not make her a traditional woman because of what she likes to do, it does to her. She thinks that women who sit in front of mirror day in, day out, painting their nails and wondering when their next hair appointment is should be taken outside, put in a big hessian sack and shaken. Please do not take this post to be some type of attack upon you, I am merely pointing out some 'truths' that get covered up. Ask anyone and they will say that I tell it as it is. If truth hurts then that cannot be helped. Now that this thread has well and truly left it's intended topic, can we all now return to it please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan (the original) Posted October 27, 2002 Share Posted October 27, 2002 Trolldeg - That's the most refreshing thing I've ever seen you post. Now I (we) need not expect more of your attacks. We'll just keep our distance. Firefox and Francis - How is it that with so many men here claiming to know how and what all woman think, can there be so much continued confusion in these discussions? And yes Francis these discussions are relavent to the topic in my opinion. We keep using the same words but we're talking about different things. We can try to address some of the confusion. In my post with the comment "....who taught the high heel wearing beast......." I was referencing a comment made by Firefox in an earlier post, "We are trained to act the way we do......". If that's true my comment was a fair question. Then there is the idea of a woman being a savage because of the way she was raised. I agree with the desciption and analysis completely. Now in a different angle of discussion with the shoe on the other foot, "we are free thinking, free acting beings....". What happened to the "we are trained to act....."? Which way is it? This is a bit confusing and again it's all relevant to the discussion. The obsurd irony of this whole thing is we're arguing about the same thing from different views. You don't want to be told what or how to think and I (we) don't want to be told what we have to like or think. Why is it that women (or men) who don't care for the idea of men in high heels are closed minded, but men who wear high heels "aren't" closed minded to the individual values of other people? It's a basic question, deserves a basic answer. Rest assured they are just as closed minded as we are. If I don't close this, the computer glitch will lock me out. We can open the "traditional" question on another post. I'll be as patient and understanding as anyone wants to be to work through this confusion. Like I said, the world is a beautiful place, a bit of understanding goes a long way to bring people together but we can't keep talking in circles. Susan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Posted October 27, 2002 Share Posted October 27, 2002 it's true that, maybe, we are looking at the same problem from different viewpoints, but that's due to your life experiences telling you how to perceive a given situation. Trying to get everyone over to the same viewpoint is rather difficult as this is then telling someone how to think, and none of us like getting told that! if evryone had the same outlook then there would be no discussions, no debate, no war, poverty or illness. It would be a perfect world. But we all know it's far from perfect and variety will always prevail and people will always take their own view, hence difference of opinion, so we may as well resign ourselves to this and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubba136 Posted October 27, 2002 Share Posted October 27, 2002 Firefox wrote: "Why do we have to encourage people to conform to some perceived norm." For one thing, it brings order out of chaos. It's creating rules, laws, and acceptable behaviors – some things for which the English are especially noted. (the Magna Carta - Runnymede -- that sort of thing) Especially as practices by the moderators of this forum whom freely edit comments that, in their opinion, do not conform to the "norms" established by them. Besides, I believe the art of "disagreement" has been totally lost here. What’s happened to a person being able to espouse their opinion without the fear of being whipped with words of disagreement? Being mentally comfortable in your own mind is the key to wearing heels in public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firefox Posted October 27, 2002 Share Posted October 27, 2002 I don't think so Bubba. I asked a question. You've given me one possible answer. Nobody is being whipped or as some say "attacked". I'm sure we can all exchange opposing opinions without accusations of whipping, attacking, or disrespect. Who knows we might learn something of the way others think to our benefit, even if we don't change our views completely. I'm always open to that as I think are most people here PS I can't speak for the other mods, but I have never and will never edit a post because I don't agree with it. The only things that get edited are very rude stuff, abuse, porn, and other things that contravene the terms on which we are able to use the servers on which we operate. We don't make those norms, they are imposed on us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Posted October 27, 2002 Share Posted October 27, 2002 Anyone who voices an opinion mus accept that there will always be those who disagree. Cold fact! The art of disagreement comes about to try and find a common ground and then law and order can be obtained, otherwise you may as well go stand behind your barricades and refuse to even listen. As for our 'norms', if you read the codes of practice which are in place to protect you from offensive material, you might just ntoice that we have turned a blind eye to a few as they presented a valid point. We're not as draconian as you might think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubba136 Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 ah, yes --- but you're still in charge and are imposing "norms" on those that wish to post here. You've made my point. And, that's all on this subject!! (as far as I'm concerned) Being mentally comfortable in your own mind is the key to wearing heels in public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 It really shouldn't have been brought up, but now that it's in the open I hope we can all get back to what matters and that's the discussion! So can we now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubba136 Posted October 28, 2002 Share Posted October 28, 2002 Lead on, Mc Duff!!! Being mentally comfortable in your own mind is the key to wearing heels in public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver8 Posted November 3, 2002 Share Posted November 3, 2002 A Parable. I went onto a feminist website and started arguing that abortion was murder, female genital mutilation is just a cultural issue, and that women should quit whining about getting paid less. Then I went into a Star Trek website and let them know that Babylon 5 was much better. Oh, and I visited Slashdot and informed them all that Linux just wasn't ready for prime time, and until then, expert programmers stick to Windows. And in every case, I was "really surprised" when my views weren't respected. Didn't they all want to hear my honest opinions? It was a very wise man who suggested to the young usenet students, in days of yore: Don't feed the trolls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julietta Posted December 28, 2002 Share Posted December 28, 2002 As a woman I would just like to add my piece to this. I don't care what anyone wears, men or women. Clothes, shoes, jewellery and makeup are just adornments. As humans we like to adorn our bodies, whether in tattoos, piercings, clothes or shoes. If you go back in history men have been wearing heels in different periods depending on the fashion at the time. It seems weird to me that in this day and age when we should be progressing that we still seem to make such a big deal about what a person should or shouldn't wear. I care more about how an individual relates to me and whether they are a nice person or not. I really don't care whether that person, male or female, wants to dress like a punk, a goth, a woman, a man, a glam rocker, a naturist or a fetishist, a nun etc so long as he/she relates to me in a friendly open manner and most importantly, doesn't judge or critisize me for being me too. We should all live and let live, and clothing is such a trivial thing to get riled about. Imagine how boring the world would be without colourful and different individuals. Love to you all Julietta xxx Let calm be widespread May the sea glisten like greenstone And the shimmer of summer Dance across your pathway "Communication is a two way thing" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamyam Posted December 28, 2002 Share Posted December 28, 2002 As a man, I'd like to agree with Julietta. It's a shame other people don't see it this way. However, the people I count as my genuine true friends know about me and my shoes, and they don't mind. Other people don't seem to notice, or if they do, they don't seem to give me any crap about it - so that'll do. Actually, some of my true friends think that I'm a TV, rather than a hh enthusiast - and that doesn't bother them either. I recently found out, for instance, that someone I'd not spoken to for months thought that I was a TV, and wasn't bothered about it, and was just wondering where I'd been. We're now best mates again, and although I don't think I'd wear hh around him, he knows, and he doesn't care at all. Oh, and to explode the myth about older people, he's two years older than my father, and he's cool with it all. For me - I like people, and if I can relate to someone positively, that's all that matters. Like Julietta said, they can be or do whatever the heck they want, but if we can have a positive relationship, then that's fine. If not, then I'll move on. I've got quite enough negatives to be going on with (this is most definitely not a swipe at anyone on this board, before I get my donkey flamed off). Obsessed is such a strong word. I prefer to think of myself as "differently enthusiastic" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan (the original) Posted December 29, 2002 Share Posted December 29, 2002 "She thinks that women who sit in front of mirror day in, day out, painting their nails and wondering when their next hair appointment is should be taken outside, put in a big hessian sack and shaken". That's quote from one of the moderaters of this forum. Now, to the best of our knowledge those women haven't bothered or harmed him or his wife in any way. No one on the forum who read it had any problem with the comment. Ok, that's fine, no harm done and none intended I'm sure, it's only an emphasized expression of opinion, and I believe it wasn't referring to me. But, if I used exactly the same words to describe my opinion of men wearing high heels the onslaught of attacks accusing me of being everything from a racist to a mindless idiot would be hurled at me, or any other woman. This whole mess surrounding these discussions is a lesson in hypocrisy. It isn't a matter of "should" or "shouldn't", it's a matter of perference and personal values. I'm female, a woman, I'm not pretend or some fantasy, I'm quite real, with my religious values, and I know exactly who I am. Whatever someone else is, wants to be, wants to wear or do, enjoy as they wish is none of my business, and they are welcome to it. But, I will not be forced to agree with it. Julietta, I might ask that you read my original post on this topic on page four. It's more accurate and honest as anything ever written on these forums. Many of the long time participants here witnessed or participated in the events I briefly outlined. I only ask that you read and interpret it as I wrote it. You will notice in the posts which followed, no one denied it or found anything wrong with what happened. You're a woman, tell me how I'm supposed to feel about all of this or how you might feel. Please don't misunderstand. I must emphasize I've met a lot of incredibly nice people here and some of us have managed to find a pleasantly common respect for each other. My e-mail address isn't available on the forum list but I'll get it to you if you would like. Susan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffB Posted December 29, 2002 Share Posted December 29, 2002 "What do women think about men in high heels?" Well, I like to think I bring an interesting perspective to this particular subject. I work at an office complex that's a good niety-five percent female, and when I started wearing block heels there two years ago, I was amazed to discover that the women had absolutely no problem with it, in fact, they thought my shoes looked nice. A year later, I gradually eveolved from block heeled loafers to boots, to full blown pumps which are now my every day shoe of choice. Not only haven't I been harshly criticized for wearing women's shoes openly, I've been highly complimented instead. I've been told by my female co-workers that I look sharp in pumps, one lady told me I have better taste in shoes than most women she knows. Almost every day, I find myself in lively and enjoyable chats with the ladies about shoe styles we like, and I'm always asked where I find mine since 13 wide isn't available everywhere. I've found all the praise I've gotten from female co-workers both surprising, and refreshing, knowing that there are openminded people in this world who don't think me to be odd or unusual becuase of the shoes I choose to wear. I don't want to LOOK like a woman, I just want to DRESS like a woman! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firefox Posted December 29, 2002 Share Posted December 29, 2002 This subject is a bit like religion. We're unlikely to change any views, but at least we can understand each other better by airing them. I always think airing our views is the best thing. Agree or disagree, it's the only way to some sort of mutual understanding. I was in conversation with a fine (heel wearing) member of this forum recently, and he stated that if he saw a girl wearing Doc Martins, he would certainly avoid dating her. It's not an attitude I share, and I like to think at least I'm consistent in this respect. I've never dictated what my partners have worn, and I don't expect the same in return. A vain hope with some I know, but that's life and I accept it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan (the original) Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 JeffB - You're fortunate to work in such a congenial office environment and it's nice to hear the women around you are respectful toward your preference in shoes. For what it's worth, if I were in that office you would get no criticism or harassment from me. Honestly, I probably would try to avoid the discussions about your shoes, but be a part of the group, and just go about my job as pleasantly as possible. If you treat me as an associate I'll certainly treat you as an associate. On the other hand, considering the clothes and heels I generally wear, if you found it necessary to approach me on that subject I would try to be courteous but brief. From the lessons I've learned on the internet, I would be very uncomfortable in that situation. Honestly, I've never had to work or had a job so I can't speak to any particular office arrangement as such. We don't know whether the 95% is 95% of 10 people or 50 people. In the past couple years I have had the opportunity to be in organizational tour meetings with a couple dozen people, mostly all men. I usually tend to raise an eye brow when people tell me they know what other people are thinking. In the office setting above if you think you know what I, or anyone else was thinking, rest assured you are kidding yourself. Let's reverse the scenario and put a woman such as myself in an office setting made up of 95% men. If you are going to try to tell me the comments made after she leaves are the same as the comments made in front of her, forget it! Wouldn't if be nice if we could have some "open minded" men who could see a well dressed woman in incredible heels as a female human being rather than a throw away sex object. You don't know, I don't know, no one "knows" what someone else is thinking, they only think they do. Susan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highluc Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 What the people think or say about anybody is irrelevant, that's just gossip. What counts is that people can express themselves the way they are, instead of having to mascarade to conform to a society that only approves local fashion dictated behavior. Everybody is entitled to live his (her) life the way they want and as long as they don't harm anybody, should be accepted for their value as human and worker instead of basing it on appearance and dress code. Wouldn't it be nice if 2003 turned out that way? by the way, happy New Year to all the open minded people reading this board (yes, that includes the lurkers). Be youself, enjoy any footwear you like and don't care about what others think about it, it's your life, not theirs. Greetings from Laurence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffB Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 Thanks for your opinions, Susan. I forgot to mention that there are a good 200 people at the place where I work, spread out over four floors, and I get around a fair amount during the course of a workday, so a great many people see me. Everyone there is very comfortable with me and I'm well liked, which is why no one's raised an eyebrow regarding the shoes I choose to wear. As for the conversations about same, nine times out of ten, the women ask me to join in their little chats, which I find rather remarkable. They tell me I'm extremely bold, even courageous when it comes to wearing women's shoes in public, that I wear them well and are impressed with how well I walk in them. As for the few men who work there, for the most part, they don't say anything about them. The important thing is that I'm still respected by all my co-workers, both male and female, my superiors haven't said a thing about my shoes, or if I'm violating the company dress code, I don't think I am, nor do i think it even covers men wearing women's shoes! I'm continuing to enjoy myself each and every day. :-D I don't want to LOOK like a woman, I just want to DRESS like a woman! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kneehighs Posted December 30, 2002 Share Posted December 30, 2002 Have any of you guys heard the cliche, "attitude determines altitude?" Well, when it comes to effective "freestyling", I think JEFF B is the quintessential embodiment of "freestyling" success. Instead of crawling into a shell, he stuck his neck out. Instead of hoarding his shoes in a closet, he spreads his beautiful feathers for others to admire. His expectations cause his success with heel wearing because he has conditioned his mind to expect positive feedback from others. While my life is sprinkled with random examples of positive feedback from women, in his life its a daily occurence. Maybe some day I too can have beautiful women admiring my heels! And as for mind reading, you can read SOME people's minds with SOME accuracy SOME of the time. Feminine Style . Masculine Soul. Skin In The Game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firefox Posted December 31, 2002 Share Posted December 31, 2002 I'm sure Susan is right Jeff. You do look upon your office envronment with rather rose tinted glasses. There's bound to be some snidey comments by a few ignorant ones when you're not around. But what the hell. You can't please all of the people, and that would be true whatever you chose to wear. I'd like to bet that if there were any snidey comments they'd come from guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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