What do women think about men in high heels?

[Laurieheels]

Yes Fox, but the mental and emotional harm generally have some sort of physical manifestation, even if it is something as simple as insomnia. So that is why I didn't break it down further. The brain is a part of the body, and the mental and emotional harm targets that most important part of ourselves, and thus it becomes physical harm. I should have explained my viewpoint, but I thought I was long winded enough in that message.

[Driver8]

Janise wrote, concerning violence against women:

Internet high heel sites have become a source of pages of collected material for concern.

I, for one, am interested why high heels sites would be of interest to anyone researching violence against women,

[Francis]

Having read your statement , Janise, and made no sense of it, then re-read removing all capitals, punctation, grammar and as my wife would read it (and she's partly dyslexic) it started to make some sort of sense. I don't mean to cast any aspertions, but your english must improve if you intend to make your point clearly. I sympathise with your plight, but as I have previously stated, I don't wish to be tarred with the same brush as the mindless person who cause you grief. I am male, wear heels and I'm proud of it. My wife voices her concerns only when I wear my higher heels, but has no problems thinking that I am going to abuse her for saying so. Her concern is the small minded idiots on the other side of the door. As to your statement that the internet and sites like this are cause for concern when it comes to violence against women is, quite frankly, complete nonsense. Where on this site have you read anyone advocate the act of violence, be that physical, emotional and mental? Nowhere ! Material of this nature is edited or deleted as we don't like references of this type. I hate violence against women especially when from men. Ask my wife and she will tell what I do to men who abuse women. Most don't make it to their next birthday ! I would never hit a woman or hurt them in any way. I have been stabbed by a woman and my response was to disarm her and restrain her. A successful prosecution followed. Even though she did me physical harm, I didn't cause any to her, although she damn well deserved to be. Had it been a man he would have ended in a bodybag. I don't know where your misplaced opinion of men who wear high heels comes from, but it certainly isn't from the attack you suffered. I think it is more likely due to something you suffered from earlier in life. I am not a violent person, but I am fully prepared to kill in order to defend myself, though I shall restrain myself from ever taking it that far. I hope you manage to resolve you conflict with your problem and your own mistrust of heel wearing males, but I feel that you have many issues that will require a lot of help, but while you continue to blame men in heels and places such as this, then you cannot expect support or help from us. Speculate, don't denegerate! Life is much better when an open mind can remain open. Close it and you may as well not exist.

[Arctic]

Janise wrote, concerning violence against women:

Internet high heel sites have become a source of pages of collected material for concern.

I, for one, am interested why high heels sites would be of interest to anyone researching violence against women,

I'd like to figure that out too.

The only explanation that I could reasonably come up with is that for some men with a disproportionate fetish for heels, shoe or heel sites could be considered as being the same as porn. Some women might think that porn triggers male animal behaviour, as a lot of porn ads (spam, popups...) suggest that rather non-mainstream things like SM, teenporn etc. are to be promoted. So that way one could argue that heels sometimes trigger a certain fetish, fetishes are sometimes linked to porn, porn sometimes triggers violent behaviour and therefore may be a threat to women?

You have to do some serious mind-stretching to make that connection, but otherwise I really don't see how it could be explained.

Bert

[Bubba136]

Whew! I've read and re-read Janise's post and still can't figure it out. I associate "racist" with race - the color of a person?s skin or disrespect because of ethnic background. I can't imagine, regardless of how I look at it, associating a man wearing high heels as being "racist." What has that got to do with it? As for "what happened to you", I think you're connecting the dots out of sequence. The cause and effect really don't have anything to do with a man wearing high heels. The cause of that man mistreating you is far more complicated and goes much, much deeper, in my opinion, than your simplistic explanation. The fact that "unpleasent" things occurred to you or in your presence is unfortunate. However, to blame the entire episode on a "man wearing high heels" is really a stretch. I would think that if this incident has traumatized you to the degree it seems to have, I think you should seek professional help as quickly as possible.

[Yamyam]

Whew! I've read and re-read Janise's post and still can't figure it out. I associate "racist" with race - the color of a person?s skin or disrespect because of ethnic background. I can't imagine, regardless of how I look at it, associating a man wearing high heels as being "racist." What has that got to do with it?

OK, 'fess up. I'm not white. So, to the 'racist' argument. It's what's called a 'straw man' argument. Essentially, the way it works is this:

You say something.

I claim that this is exactly the same as the racist argument that funny-coloured people are inherently inferior, due to smaller brains, or being bred to be good at sports, or whatever.

You wonder how the hell I got there.

I accuse you of being a racist.

You - well, you lose at this point, according to the book ("Proof techniques of the rich and famous", since you ask)

It's a winner, every time. People not liking men in heels, well, men in heels are just like racists, really. Me not wanting my mobile phone stolen - well, proves I'm a racist, really. And so it goes.

Back to the start. I'm not white, but I live in the UK. So I know about this.

[Bubba136]

Who cares what color you skin is? I don't. I really play hard-ball when it comes to shoes, though. I would more likely critize your taste in foot wear. (Gosh, those are the most awful looking heels I've ever seen

[Maryanne]

It seems to me that this thread has gone off track somewhat. I think it's time we all took a couple of deep breaths, relaxed and then reread the name of the thread. My 2c worth. I don't have a problem with men in high heels. I think it's great that anyone can express themselves through what they wear. Would I date a man who wore high heels? Probably not (hangs head in shame) Maybe I'm selfish and want all the heels for myself. I guess I'm just a little old fashioned. Maryanne

[JeffB]

The staff at the office complex I work at is 95 percent female. A lot of them see me every day in heels and they have no problem with it. They never fail to give me compliments on how nice my shoes are, they don't that I have "nice women's shoes", just "nice shoes". A few are openly amazed that I can walk in high heels, one lady chuckled and said she'd break her neck if she wore heels as high as mine. A few have told me that I wear prettier shoes than most of the women there while I made one lady flat out jealous, saying it annoyed her that a man wore nicer looking pumps than her! :-) This is proof positive that women can indeed be open minded about seeing a man in heels.

[Firefox]

I suppose there's quite a difference between tolerating, liking, and being attracted to a certain fashion on someone. I try to put myself in this position and think what fashions I like seeing on girls. Some more than others for sure, but non that would affect me going out with someone or not.

[Susan (the original)]

In one of the earlier posts made to this topic several months ago "I" was characterised as having the principles of a "racist". No one had any problem with the use of that word than. I'll listen to an explanation as to why not. I can only guess at the inference Janise was making but since the word had only been used once before (by a man) a bit of sense might suggest she was trying to defend herself again. No one here knows what the man who beat her did to her or what she has suffered since. I've been involved with her medical and legal necessities and have known her for approximantely two years. Having not been able to reach her for the past few days I'm going to take a liberty which might be unfair. When Janise caught the x-boyfriend in her apartment wearing the high heels he told her he wanted her to have sex with him while he was wearing the shoes. He wanted her to make love to his "feminine side". In this country when a woman affectively says "no" that's exactly what she means. From that point on the unconsenting sex is called rape. She fought him until she got out a scream heard by the neighbors but is cost her dearly. While she was pinned to the floor his right hand battered her face. Proving attempted rape in court is hopeless. To add insult to injury the guy used his obsession for high heels as part of his defense. The court inpart agreed with him. The reconstructive surgeries have been completed for some time now but her eye will be disfigured for life. I wonder how many of you would find her attractive. This "open minded", "closed minded" business thoughout the conversations is a lot of crap. (pardon my language) There isn't a person here who has even been slightly "open minded" to what that girl has been through. Just throw her away and insist no high heel wearing guy would do such a thing. For Driver8 and anyone else who still don't get it, be patient, you might get to see it in a television documentary on violence. As a reminder, I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's understood not all the guys with a high heel fasination fall into the same catagory. I've met some very nice gentlemen here and at Jenny's, they wear heels, I'm glad to make their acquaintance and after four years still exchange conversations. At the same time there is the element of hate and contempt present by others. In fact the forums invite it.

[Bubba136]

Janise has my heart felt sympathy'. I am truly sorry that she was so severly harmed by this individual. This "entire episode" could and should be blamed on “a” psychologically unbalanced individual. What the guy did to Janise was wrong and he should be severely punished -- locked away in jail and the key thrown away. It’s barbaric when anyone is treated in this manner for any reason. It’s not my way, or the way of any other psychologically well balanced human being whether or not they engage in any form of “sexually deviant behavior". It’s my opinion that the court greatly erred and should have found this guy guilty of committing violent rape. However, since they obviously didn’t, Janise should have had a better lawyer. Because, her lawyer failed to convince the jury or liberal judge that “mental sickness” isn’t an excuse for his behavior. I still think it’s inappropriate to paint all men that wear high heels with the same brush -- as being violent and wishing to harm women that view men wearing heels as deviant sexual behavior. If the guy had been wearing any other items of women’s apparel -- stockings, panties and/or a dress-- would these items be blamed for the crime? Besides, if you’re going to produce a documentary of causes that trigger violent behavior, let’s include all causes – from putting onions in potato salad to extramarital affairs. Janise is extremely fortunate to have you as a friend. I cannot think of another individual as compassionate, caring or considerate as you. As to her physical appearance, there are, as you are well aware, individuals that can get beneath scars or disfiguration to the heart. And, as one of those guys that wear high heel, I’m proud to know you as a friend. As for the “element of hate and contempt present by others,” we can’t really do anything about that as long as the “element” of free speech is prevalent – because these forums accentuate anonymity – anyone can act in any manner or say anything they wish without being accountable and with the idea their true identities will never be discovered. I still don't understand what all this has to do with race!

[hoverfly]

I think you can base this mater with Janice on a simple animal instant, and it's a human instinct as well. Example, when you discipline a domsascated animal like a cat for instance. That animal only relates to that moment, and is unable to extrapolate that it's not the moment it is being punished for but for the actual behavior. Janice is only able to relate to men wearing high heels in the moment that she was beaten. In which at this time she is unable to think out side the box. Only time and therapy will resolve this issue. Even then her opinion may not halved changed. So in my opionion, is it worth at this time, spending the time convincing her? Personally, I think we are talking to a brick wall.

[azraelle]

When Janise caught the x-boyfriend in her apartment wearing the high heels he told her he wanted her to have sex with him while he was wearing the shoes. He wanted her to make love to his "feminine side".

I wonder what "feminine side" definition he was using while he was beating her up and attempting rape? A sadistic control freak by any other name, or for that matter, in any other attire, is still a sadistic control freak. But that shouldn't imply that ALL male heel-a-holics are.

I doubt that Janise relates much differently to hi-heel-wearing men now than she did B4 she had her unfortunate, and admittedly traumatic, experience. She was turned OFF by the sight then, and probably would have been turned off by such a sight long B4 she met the PUTZ. Many women are, if Laurie is to be believed, perhaps even the vast majority, however illogical this may seem to some of us men. This just further supports the theory, DUH, that women think differently than men!! Attempting to change how a person thinks, especially someone who does not want to change, is, indeed akin to beating one's head against a brick wall.

[Laurieheels]

"If" I am to be believed? It's downright obvious that women think in different ways than men. I can hold a double standard and make it work, after all. Okay, that's a joke, everyone relax. I always had a certain ideal for the man I wished to be with in my life. He had to embody certain qualities. The shoes are my thing, and I didn't want my man to be into that, beause I am selfish. But for men in general, they can do whatever they like. I am not dating them, after all, and I am not forming that intimate connection with them. Thus, I do not feel threatened, and I encourage them in doing what they like to do. I have found someone who is very much the embodiment of my list of ideals. I am lucky. I am most certainly going to keep him. With regards to Janise, well, she had the experience she did, and has left an imprint on her. She can only know what she has experienced so violently at this point. She obviously held a similar idea to mine, then, in that she wished to be with a man who was not into a certain aspect she was into. When she expressed this, it went poorly, and she has been left with an imprint she cannot remove with any ease. It is for us to show sympathy to her plight, and try to remove the scars of the assault. That means caring and understanding, and a willingness to acknowledge that she went through something bad. Our goal, maybe, should be to help her be a survivor, not a victim, well before we try to show her that not all men in heels are bad. There should be a natural progression to some things. Women think differently from men, yes, so we need a different approach in helping Janise get over what has happened. Let's not sit there and tell her not all men who wear heels are this way when all she knows is that a man in heels has hurt her. Let's heal the hurt first, then move on to change the perceptions.

[Driver8]

If you're mugged by a black person, does that mean it makes sense to be afraid of all blacks? If a woman cheats on you and runs off with your money, does it make sense to take it out on all women? If a heel-wearing man rapes you, does it make sense to dislike all heel-wearing men? You say that women think differently, but being female shouldn't be an excuse for stupidity.

[Bubba136]

Laurie wrote: "we need a different approach in helping Janise get over what has happened. Let's not sit there and tell her not all men who wear heels are this way when all she knows is that a man in heels has hurt her. Let's heal the hurt first, then move on to change the perceptions." It would, indeed, be benevolent on our part to try to help Janise heal from the unfortunate trauma she experienced. After all, it is only natural for everyone here to want to surround her with a protective shield of love and care to relieve the pain and anguish she suffered and to show her that she is safe in our arms. However, several issues concerning our ability to aid and comfort her come immediately to mind. 1st is that Janise isn’t a member of our community. Her plight was initially brought to our attention by Susan (the original) to illustrate a point she was interested in projecting. Susan indicated that she was involved in helping Janise with her medical and emotional healing. And, at this juncture, I doubt Susan would consider it wise to introduce her into our community. 2ndly, as sincere as I know we are in our wishes to support, aid and comfort Janise, I sincerely doubt that she would be receptive to any assistance offered by anyone that is so closely identified with what she perceives to be the cause of her mistreatment. 3rdly, at this stage in her recovery, Janise really needs expert medical attention and qualified psychological treatment that can only be rendered by someone that has far more experience treating this type of trauma than I think anyone currently within our small community possesses. Lst's leave treatment to the those qualified to give it. When all is said, we can’t directly help Janise here. However, I genuinely hope Susan will continue to provide us with updates on Janise’s condition and progress. I also would like Susan to know I am, and I believe other members of this community also are, ready and willing to give any and all assistance we can whenever she asks.

[Laurieheels]

Well, Bubba, I think it's pretty rotten to have your first point illustrate that she is not a member of our community. Should that matter? If we go on the fact that she is a human being, and that she has been through something difficult, even horrible from her perspective, should we say "we can't help bceause she's not a member". Regardless of whether or not she posts here again, we should still be supportive in her progression towards being a survivor. Sure, she will need some time with a therapist to sort through the events, but human beings can be helped by knowing a larger group of people care about the individual. Who are we to decide whether or not she will be receptive? Why should we let that stop us from trying to offer our support? I say we should offer it, and then let her make the decision, instead of judging the situation in advance. All she needs to know is that people are there who feel bad for what has happened, and in turn, will offer comfort and supprt should she choose to accept it. If she doesn't, that is her decision, yet I think we should still make the effort to offer that support.

[Bubba136]

I’m sorry Laurie, but I believe you misunderstand my comment. I totally agree with you that we should give Janise all the help, assistance, support and comfort she wants of us. I was merely pointing out that, in her present frame of mind, and because we are total strangers – some of us being closely associated with what she views as the cause of here distress -- she might not be receptive to anything we have to offer right now. And, that all we (our community) can do right now is to let her know that we are here to help in anyway we can. All she has to do is approach us whenever she’s ready. As for her ever posting here again, I don’t recall her ever posting here. I became aware of her plight from a comment Susan made. I’m not sure Janise really knows we, or this forum, exists. That’s what I meant by us being total strangers and her not being a member of this community. Am I mistaken about this?

[hoverfly]

As for her ever posting here again, I don’t recall her ever posting here. I became aware of her plight from a comment Susan made. I’m not sure Janise really knows we, or this forum, exists. That’s what I meant by us being total strangers and her not being a member of this community. Am I mistaken about this?

Actually she has, it's been a while since her last series of postings. You might have to dig deeper in this tread to find it, but it should be there.

[Susan (the original)]

No Hoverfly, Janise is neither an animal or a brick wall. She is a human being with a well mind very capable of realizing fully what happed to her. I believe I understand what you were trying to say and that's fine, but it's not that simple. And yes, time is cheap and it's worth every bit of it to help people. Bubba, I met Janise through the internet on Jenny's site. The process was already in motion in her research surrounding these bahavior patterns. As I understand it, it was one of those - someone told some one who told someone - and she found Jenny's site. At that time my e-mail address was common knowledge in random places on the forum so she contacted me. After Tom's death I made time and took the opportunity to meet her in person. One thing led to another and this is where we are today. I believe somewhere in the pages of these forums she had an exchange with a gentleman named Charlie. I know from some comments she has made to me that her impression was one of care. To her situation he was unabusive, unintrusive, unauthoritative, polite, and patient, willing to listen to her and she listened to him. In a recent conversation with Firefox I mentioned there are very few "ambassadors" in the male high heel wearing group and I'm not just talking about a situation like Janise's. Also Bubba, to the race thing, I don't understand it either. You'll have to ask the high heel wearing man who made the comparison between women's values and racist's. I'm not trying to be smart or rude, it's just a fact and another one of the attitudes that will be taken from the internet substantiating the hate. Laurie, your thoughts mirror mine almost exactly. We are at opposite ends fo the age group and many of the basic feminine values are still the same. My thirty years in heels is taking a change and yours is just beginning. I wish you the best. Susan

[Bubba136]

Thanks, Susan, for filling in the blanks. I was totally unaware that Janise had posted comments on this forum. Apparently, reading between the lines of what you said, she found the experience somewhat helpful. I sincerely hope she fully recovers from this unfortunate and life-altering occurrence. She is, indeed, very lucky to have you as a friend. And, as I said, I am sincere with my offer to help in anyway I can. If there’s anything I can do to reinforce your effort, please ask.

[hoverfly]

Uhmmmm...you missed my point.

I think you can base this mater with Janice on a simple animal instant, and it's a human instinct as well.

Janice is an animal, mammal, human, just like the rest of us who uses this board. A lot of human behavior in based on animal instinct. People who have been physically traumatized are misunderstood stood. They can be mentally ill, depression is one for instance. Mental illness is a very misunderstood and discriminated illness.

A lot of times many people will regress to their instincts and not to intelligence (copping mechanism) because of a body defense mechanism. They have been traumatized and the body is trying to protect it's self from that moment. (Remembering the moment and/or why me? what did I do to deserve this? ect) In some cases the mind is unable to pull it's self out with out some kind of out side intervention.

My brick wall analogy is based from Janice’s last statement she made. Nobody really under stood in what she is trying to say nor did it make any sense. In this case I saw that we were covering the same issues that we covered before. It just was my opion..The healing she is looking for is not on this board. If she has goten any benifit from this board then that's good and what she wrote was a misunderstanding from those who read it. Maby she would like to clear things up?

[Firefox]

I don't think Janise is going to get any answers or particular help with her personal dilemnas by visiting Jenny's site or any other special interest shoe sites. I'd hope the quickest way for her to forget her traumatic experience would be concentrate on other things and let time heal.

[Susan (the original)]

Hoverfly, thank you for the explanation, it's welcome and much appreciated. As I mentioned, I believe I understood what you initially meant, it just seemed terribly simplistic. Thanks again I don't want to become a "go between" here talking at length, possibly out of turn, to someone else's comments. A couple of things aren't helping the matter. I can't reach Janise, she isn't a registered participant so can't respond, and I still have to make a couple attempts to make my post's work due to some computer glitch. After rereading her post a couple times the only thing I can see is she found the racist comments and reacted to them. Hoverfly's explanation about how we respond to things might even explain the rest and make a little sense of what she was saying. I don't know, if I learn differently from her I'll correct it. Susan

[PJ]

Hello;

I just started reading this thread about two weeks ago. When the focus shifted from women's comments about men in high heels to the plight of Janise, I became confused. I had trouble comprehending her postings and their relevance to the topic.

It was not until Susan provided the details in a recent posting of what had happened to Janise did I finally realize what was going on.

I am appalled to learn about the physical abuse that Janise suffered. I'm also saddened to hear that the judicial system failed Janise in her attempt to seek retribution.

Janise is venting anger through her posts in here. She is not only scarred physically, but emotionally as well.

Hopefully, with proper professional help, she will learn to sort out her perceptions and misperceptions.

And if she chooses, she can really on us for support.

And if she chooses, she can really on us for support.

Change that to:

And if she chooses, she can rely on us for support.

PJ

[Bubba136]

I don't think Janise is going to get any answers or particular help with her personal dilemnas by visiting Jenny's site or any other special interest shoe sites. I'd hope the quickest way for her to forget her traumatic experience would be concentrate on other things and let time heal.

Firefox succinctly said it all. However, If Janise believes we can help, then all she needs to do is ask.

[lion]

I'd rather forget the whole discussing I just read. I advise anyone to do the same. Now my 2 cents: Finally I read some posts in this thread where someone is honest in her/his opinion. Since I started wearing heels I've met very few people who are. In fact many people say to you they don't mind you wearing heels, or say they like it, but they really don't. Maybe this thread was started in order to get general approvement from women. In my opinion we men will never get it. Why? Because men are men, and women are women. Although we all are humans, men and women are physically different and therefore 'think' different. The uttermost we can expect is that people start to respect one another and be honest. But again, we are all humans, and that's probably why it will never be that way... Lion

[Firefox]

In fact many people say to you they don't mind you wearing heels, or say they like it, but they really don't.

What do you base that premise on? If they say they like it, how do you know they don't?

In my experience if people don't like something they will say nothing and ignore you or try not to make contact with you. Since that does not happen to me, and some people even make a positive effort to say they like them, then I can only assume that they really do like them or at least are indifferent to it.

[lion]

What do you base that premise on? If they say they like it, how do you know they don't?

In the one year I'm wearing heels now, it often happened that a person said they liked it, and a few hours later while they think I'm not watching/listening make negative comments to another person. I somehow developed a sixth sense for that, and I hear/see more than people think. When I confront them with what they just did, they deny. Of course they deny, would you admit being a liar? Their red faces tell me enough...

Just pay attention to people, and use some tricks. For instance when you leave a room, close the door a few seconds later than people expect, and walk away a bit later than people expect, or suddenly return. You'll be surprised about the things you see or hear....

The world is not as beautifull as we'd like it to be.

Lion