Permission To Heel

[Magickman]

It has been a recurring theme, here, about public heeling: getting permission to heel. Speaking just for myself, as a persistent bachelor, I make up my own mind about my selection of footwear. But I have experienced much input from family, friends, and women; most of it negative about the heels.

"I've never worn heels that high," said one of my dates, meaning that I should not, either. "Oh, you are wearing your girly shoes," said another date. "My friends think you are gay or bi," she added, to further press the point. "Men don't wear shoes like that," pitched in a long time female neighbor.

In contrast, my current woman thinks my heel boots are sexy, and she has begun wearing heels occasionally, too. Perhaps I am lucky, in that respect.

A lot of the guys here expressed some conflict, or at least disagreement, with their wives or girlfriends over this issue.

"Permission to heel," is what I call it, the required acquiessence of a woman, for a man to put on the tall shoes, especially in public. This seems to me to reflect a "culture of shame," feelings of guilt and embarrassment about who we are and what we do.

Conformity of male dress is enforced informally, mostly without explicit rules. But violation of unwritten rules still has consequences; social disapproval and name calling.

"I want you to be the man," complained a past inamorata. Many of you may have heard similar animadversions and criticisms. There are narrow standards of male appearance. Go outside the box, and get slapped down.

As a single guy, who dates women independently, I do my own thing. I do not take direction well. If my woman du jour does not like the way I am, then we can both find more compatible partners.

But if you are married or in a serious long term relationship, it is not so easy to walk away. Instead, we seek accommodation.

What are your experiences with regard to Permission To Heel?

How have you dealt with this issue? How do you balance your autonomy with your woman's desires?

[flavio]

I think I'm a lucky guy about my wyfe too. She liked my style and we are happy wearing heels, both of us, in the privacy of our home. I received one bad comment from a friend of us (women) that is lesbian and said that this thing is neurosis. I never talked about this to family or friends and I started going to the street I live in in heels without any kind of comments from the neighbours or passants. Well, in my opinion, you need to be yourself. If everybody knows seems that you made the worst! Had courage to talk to everybody and seems that you weared heels in front of them. So, from now on, it's your decision, keep wearing what you want and expect for the best part! Good comments will appear. Good luck Heels for all! Flavio.

[Dr. Shoe]

I have a devil of a job getting permission off Ruth. In truth I'm restricted to heelmeets only and the occassional tranny do though I do get out at other times without her knowing!

[HeelD]

The only "unwritten" rule we have is that I at least let my girlfriend know my intention to wear "alternative footwear" so she can wear nice shoes too! Apart from that there's no "permission" needed as my girlfriend accepts it.

[flavio]

I forgot to use the word "permission" in my post. I think that no one needs to _permit_ you to wear whatever you want, as everybody is saying here. Of course, it's best for you to be with people that accept you but if it's impossible, go, do it, and hold what happens... maybe you'll be starting a new vogue. Heels for all! Flavio.

[Dawn HH]

I wouldn't use the word permission. Mickey and I have always discussed what we wear and how we wear it depending on where we were going and the activity we were involved in. We still do this even today. She would say to me, "Do you want to wear your heels", or do you think heels would be appropriate for the occasion", or something to that effect and I do the same with her. Cheers--- Dawn HH

[Pam]

My experience & opinion is that the first person that I need to ask "permission" is me. I need to evaluate the opportunity and timing to make sure ieverything is OK when I plan to wear the heelies. My case involves a wife that is not accepting, that means any heeling is done behind the scenes.

[Arctic]

Hi we have some kind of unusual arrangement with my wife. She is absolutely not ok with me wearing "fashion" heels, for the reasons mentioned below: 1) her image of a man is incompatible with footwear designed _for females_. The issue is not the height of the heel as such - she accepts me wearing 8cm-heel western boots but not boots from the woman's part of the store, heeled or not. She says that a knee high boot for example which zips up _tightly_ around the leg, is designed to make a woman in skirt look sexy - same goes for blade or stiletto heels. So she will not accept any piece of clothing for me that is made in a way to underscore or enhance femininity. She says that it is a matter of personal preference which she will not compromise upon. 2) society has set a certain standard for what males and females are supposed to wear. She says that the matter is not whether or not she agrees with it, but that the general population has certain expectactions and makes judgements based on that standard. Now, what she by all means wants to avoid is that I get seen in public by one of her friends/associates/colleagues and that they would think that I'm a secret closet wearer - which possibly has other things "to hide" - and that she gets pity for that. She considers it the ultimite humiliation if the feedback loop would close and some of her friends would tell her some day "do you know that your husband..." and that the conversation would continue "who knows what else". And then there is also the gossiping behind her back which she rather avoids, but the pity is the key thing. So when I told her I was exlusively interested in heels and nothing more, and not for the possible sexual component of it but purely from a fashion/look/feeling point of view, she said that it could very well be the case, but: 1) I don't want to be confronted with personally. Never. That's my choice. 2) I never want to be in the situation that somebody else brings this to my attention. Ever. Breaching of either of those requirements would result into divorce. The odds of the first one changing is zero and changing society is kind of a hard thing so I'm realistic enough not counting on the second one either. This city and surroundings have the population of about a million, but apparently I am bumping into people all the time. I have gotten "caught" by friends and workmates in shoe stores many times so I really should be careful or rule #2 will be breached sooner or later. I've a great family and am not willing to jeoparize it so I'm restricted to "male heels" in our home city. Which is not too much of a problem since I kind of like my male heels, but I travel a great deal for work so I use that opportunity to wear the boots I like most, male or not. I'm realistic enough to realize that I'm constitutionally given the right to wear whatever I want pretty much anywhere in the civilized world and I am doing so when family and business interests are not at stake. But I feel it unfortunate that I have to have "secrets", just because my wife just doesn't like the look of it and neither does a significant part of the society. It's funny how people can sometimes be smart, independent, well educated, well traveled etc. and have this kind of views. So I treat it as some kind of lethal allergy - I have keep her away from my heel interests or the bomb would go off. We spoke about this last time about 5 years ago and it seems the current way of doing is a sustainable but frustrating situation (for me). But that's life, I guess? B

[Pam]

Bert, Amen to that! Couldn't explain it better myself JL

[Jamie001]

The desire to wear heels does not go away. It only gets worse and will make you miserable if you cannot do it. Your wife is very rigid and unfair and self-centered If she has threatened you with divorce you should take her up on it. You may want to consider a divorce or at least seperation.

Does your wife ever wear any male clothing or dress in a masculine fashion? If so, you can confront her with this.

Hi

we have some kind of unusual arrangement with my wife. She is absolutely not ok with me wearing "fashion" heels, for the reasons mentioned below:

1) her image of a man is incompatible with footwear designed _for females_. The issue is not the height of the heel as such - she accepts me wearing 8cm-heel western boots but not boots from the woman's part of the store, heeled or not. She says that a knee high boot for example which zips up _tightly_ around the leg, is designed to make a woman in skirt look sexy - same goes for blade or stiletto heels. So she will not accept any piece of clothing for me that is made in a way to underscore or enhance femininity. She says that it is a matter of personal preference which she will not compromise upon.

2) society has set a certain standard for what males and females are supposed to wear. She says that the matter is not whether or not she agrees with it, but that the general population has certain expectactions and makes judgements based on that standard. Now, what she by all means wants to avoid is that I get seen in public by one of her friends/associates/colleagues and that they would think that I'm a secret closet wearer - which possibly has other things "to hide" - and that she gets pity for that. She considers it the ultimite humiliation if the feedback loop would close and some of her friends would tell her some day "do you know that your husband..." and that the conversation would continue "who knows what else". And then there is also the gossiping behind her back which she rather avoids, but the pity is the key thing.

So when I told her I was exlusively interested in heels and nothing more, and not for the possible sexual component of it but purely from a fashion/look/feeling point of view, she said that it could very well be the case, but:

1) I don't want to be confronted with personally. Never. That's my choice.

2) I never want to be in the situation that somebody else brings this to my attention. Ever.

Breaching of either of those requirements would result into divorce. The odds of the first one changing is zero and changing society is kind of a hard thing so I'm realistic enough not counting on the second one either.

This city and surroundings have the population of about a million, but apparently I am bumping into people all the time. I have gotten "caught" by friends and workmates in shoe stores many times so I really should be careful or rule #2 will be breached sooner or later.

I've a great family and am not willing to jeoparize it so I'm restricted to "male heels" in our home city. Which is not too much of a problem since I kind of like my male heels, but I travel a great deal for work so I use that opportunity to wear the boots I like most, male or not.

I'm realistic enough to realize that I'm constitutionally given the right to wear whatever I want pretty much anywhere in the civilized world and I am doing so when family and business interests are not at stake. But I feel it unfortunate that I have to have "secrets", just because my wife just doesn't like the look of it and neither does a significant part of the society. It's funny how people can sometimes be smart, independent, well educated, well traveled etc. and have this kind of views.

So I treat it as some kind of lethal allergy - I have keep her away from my heel interests or the bomb would go off.

We spoke about this last time about 5 years ago and it seems the current way of doing is a sustainable but frustrating situation (for me). But that's life, I guess?

B

[flavio]

I'm with Jamie's point of view. If somebody can live the real life with "secrets", ok, go heeling at 4 walls alone and, if it's ok, go on. But this is not MY case, I hate to hide things specially for my wife. It's just my opinion, but I think that Bert is near the end of his relationship or he'll start beeing too much sad. If someone can't find something inside a relationship, maybe, this someone can start looking for it in another place... this can be more disgusting then a separation itself. Look Bert, I'm not saying that you should or will get divorced, but it's clear that you have been thinking about it. I agree with all points you've showed in your post, things can be hard. But a last point: is it fair to enjoy something that you can't have because of centristic/old minded/preconcepted other people? Heels for all! Flavio.

[Dr. Shoe]

Ruth is exactly the same. However, I point out to her that if those "rules" had been in place in the 1930s when women started to wear trousers then she wouldn't be able to today. She claims that that is totally different, it's normal for women to wear trousers! She just cannot get her head around that there was a time when it was far from normal.

[flavio]

A point we can't forget is that the "women in trousers" movement was very stronger then our men in high heels, and was a part of women freedom movement also. Heels for all! Flavio

[Jamie001]

The problem is that most men do not have the courage to wear high heels publically even if they love high heels!! It is interesting that a man does not fear rushing into battle where he may die, however, it is much more difficult for him to do something that will be considered non-masculine. Women fearlessy fought the battle to wear pants and won. I do not believe that most men have the courage to fight the same type of batter. The typical male ego is so very fraille. Women are turly the stronger sex.

A point we can't forget is that the "women in trousers" movement was very stronger then our men in high heels, and was a part of women freedom movement also.

Heels for all!

Flavio

[flavio]

That's the point Jamie001! Women wanted to be as "strong" as men in that decade, then what they found at that time was the major masculine symbol of pants. Now we a have a small percentage of guys wanting to wear heels, while the massive percentage of others just even matter that they can do this too or just think that this is women stuff to see, admire and, a very phew ones, have trampling and serve as a carpet to stilettos. That's why we need maybe some efort from a stylist to start a new vogue of men in high heels, and then, we'll be the first ones to agree and turn this in a men fashion, of course with some turning noses around. Is there any stylist in this forum??? Heels for all! Flavio

[Dr. Shoe]

Actually, women had practicality on their side and unfortunately we don't.

[Magickman]

"Wearing your girly shoes, again?" A greeting like that from your girlfriend is not a good thing. I went through that phase almost a year ago. Kept the shoes. Got a new girlfriend. My new woman likes the tall shoes, thinks they are sexy. The best conclusion I can draw is to be honest and open about it in the beginning. Find a woman who digs her man in heels, actually enjoys it. Probably a woman who is broad minded and accepting of eccentricity. Heels on a guy is eccentric, not demented, unusual, but not quite unhinged. If your woman hates to see you in heels, maybe you should find a new woman, rather than set yourself up for later conflict and unhappiness. Or else work out an accommodation, if that is possible. If she cannot accept you for who you are, that probably means trouble down the road.

[bluetango]

I think to win acceptance in ANY domain, we need to reframe the issue all together.

Kneehighs,

Your post is very thoughtful. As adults, we shouldn't have to ask permission for what to wear. Our parents stopped choosing our clothes a long time ago. So reframing the question and being more assertive will certainly remove some of the power from the person's who object.

On the other hand, society and family/spouse pressures from certain individuals can be a challenge to deal with.

Some people are extremely narrow-minded and feel that we must live within tightly-bounded roles. An example from my recent personal life: Last June I went on an emergency out of town assignment that lasted a month. I had let my normally short hair get a few inches long (like 2-3 inches - 8 cm) prior to leaving on this assignment. During the following month I worked long days and simply did not have time to get a haircut. I have naturally curly hair, which grew longer. I started to look like Alfred Einstein.

Most people said nothing - they accepted that my hair length was my choice. However, two of my company's managers made frequent comments on my hair length. They would say, "When are you going to see a barber?" Or, "Boy, that hair is looking pretty long." I never asked their permission to grow my hair long, but they thought it was their job to let me know I was slipping out of the boundaries of what they considered proper.

Upon return from the emergency assignment, I cut my hair shorter.

However, the controlling behavior of the two managers (whom I do not report to) irks me. I’m going to let my hair grow long again just to challenge them. (I'm thinking pony-tail long.) When they comment on my hair length, I’ll turn the situation around by responding, “Hair length is a personal choice and there are no company rules regarding hair length. I’d cut it short like yours, but I don’t want to look like a controlling and meddling jerk, who has appointed himself as a dress code enforcer.”

These are strong words. I could word-smith them a bit. But this is a discussion board. So let’s discuss.

[bluetango]

we have some kind of unusual arrangement with my wife. She is absolutely not ok with me wearing "fashion" heels (snip)

Bert,

You are in a difficult position. I know. I am now divorced because my ex-w of 22 years could not accept some of my fashion choices --- and they were quite mild compared to wearing heels.

I have 2 points:

1. Your desire to heel cannot be permanently suppressed. It would be like telling you that you could never eat your favorite food again because it is not acceptable to society. No reputable psychologist would offer to remove this desire. Studies of cross dressers show that it is fruitless to try to "cure" or remove the desires. If you try to suppress you will be miserable and eventually, the desire will pop up again.

2. Many woman look at a man's desire for fashion freedom as a slippery slope that will lead to a sex change or homosexuality/bisexuality. And then you will leave them. They feel that their personal worth will be diminished if anyone learns that their husband doesn’t fit their stereotyped image of a man. In other words, they judge themselves as worthy based on the worthiness of their husband.

There are a host of issues arising from number 2. (Actually number 1 leads to a lot of discussion points as well.)

a. Yes, a few husbands are probably interested in a sex change, but the probability is low. The press likes to give sex change a lot of attention, but it is an extremely low percentage of the population.

b. There is nothing wrong with being homosexual or bisexual. That is just what some people are.

c. If you were homosexual or bisexual, it is unlikely that you and your wife would have married. The compatibility would never have been there.

d. Most men who want to express their fashion freedom deeply love their wives and family and have no intention of leaving.

e. A person should not judge their worth based on who or what their spouse is or does. A person’s worth and value is based on who and what they are.

f. There is no slippery slope that is going to end up with you leaving her. However, one thing can lead to another. A man wearing heels may want to try nylon hosiery. He might want to get his ears pierced. Or get a tattoo. Or wear a skirt. But does this progression constitute a reason to break up a relationship? If one of the individuals thinks so, it will result in a break up.

g. Telling another person what they can and cannot wear, what length their hair should be, etc. is controlling and manipulative. Should any of us have the right to regulate another on the personal and non-threatening area of grooming? There are plenty of authoritarian countries where dress is extremely controlled. Is that where we want to go?

Sorry everyone. I lied. I had more than two points.

Blue Tango

[Arctic]

Bert,

You are in a difficult position. I know. I am now divorced because my ex-w of 22 years could not accept some of my fashion choices --- and they were quite mild compared to wearing heels.

I have 2 points:

1. Your desire to heel cannot be permanently suppressed. It would be like telling you that you could never eat your favorite food again because it is not acceptable to society. No reputable psychologist would offer to remove this desire. Studies of cross dressers show that it is fruitless to try to "cure" or remove the desires. If you try to suppress you will be miserable and eventually, the desire will pop up again.

Thanks for all the valuable insights people have provided. However I´m not sure if I agree with all of them.¨

The main thing that confuses me a little is that most people seem to think that not being allowed to wear heels is an unbearable situation. Is that really so? There are so many things that are regulated, for example driving fast. I know hundreds of people that wish there were no speed limits, at least on motor/freeways and would really enjoy to driving their cars as fast as they go. Lots of people in Germany do so, where it is legal on about 50% of all motorways. But not everyone who likes driving fast moves to Germany to fulfill that desire - and they just adhere to the speed limits in the country they live.

And the same applies for me, when at home I don´t heel if there is any chance of getting "caught", which is the same reason why my speedo nicely hovers around 130 when driving.

But when I´m in Germany and the rental is a decent car, I won´t hesitate to blast down the Autobahn at 200+ km/h, and when I´m in any civilized country I wear my heeled boots. Just as I´m doing now, I type this from the lounge in Prague, Czech.

Ps they have annoying keyboards here :->

2 But does this progression constitute a reason to break up a relationship? If one of the individuals thinks so, it will result in a break up.

That is clear, so I know not to overstep the boundaries.

g. Telling another person what they can and cannot wear, what length their hair should be, etc. is controlling and manipulative. Should any of us have the right to regulate another on the personal and non-threatening area of grooming? There are plenty of authoritarian countries where dress is extremely controlled. Is that where we want to go?

It depends what you consider a fundamental right. Food and shelter is. Freedom of speech is. Driving as fast as you can probably is not. Being able to wear any kind of clothing anywhere you want probably isn´t either.

My logic is: finding a good wife which is smart, intelligent, independent, attractive, driven, mentally stable etc. is pretty hard, and I have found one. But she happens not to like my heel habits. Finding a woman that accepts my heels is probably an achievable target, but one that is all of the above as well, is next to impossible.

I really like wearing heels, and I would be willing to do quite something to be allowed to wear them whenever I wanted, but when I think about the things that truly matter in life, I count my pennies and think that I´d better keep what I have. It´s only about shoes, after all.

Any thoughts anyone?

[azraelle]

It occurs to me that there are different kinds of courage--physical, where your life is in danger, and social, where your psyche, or "id" is in danger. Men, in general, are very well endowed with the former, perhaps due to testosterone? Men have very little social, or in this case, fashion courage. Perhaps the way to effect change is to challenge men's manliness--in general, and in particular, by inferring that a lack of courage in any respect, is a deficit in their manhood, or something similar. Any thoughts??

[bluetango]

Bert wrote:

My logic is: finding a good wife which is smart, intelligent, independent, attractive, driven, mentally stable etc. is pretty hard, and I have found one. But she happens not to like my heel habits. Finding a woman that accepts my heels is probably an achievable target, but one that is all of the above as well, is next to impossible.

Bert,

I agree. It sounds like you have a quality partner in your wife. A compromise or two on a non-critical issue like heels is certainly in order.

Blue Tango

[Pam]

My logic is: finding a good wife which is smart, intelligent, independent, attractive, driven, mentally stable etc. is pretty hard, and I have found one. But she happens not to like my heel habits. Finding a woman that accepts my heels is probably an achievable target, but one that is all of the above as well, is next to impossible.

This is my case ... I have a great woman by my side with all the characteristics....happens that me wearing heels is not one of them. I have been in other relationships where heeling was out and fully accepted (even encouraged!), but we didn't click in many other ways. At the end I miss that freedom to heel, but I know if I had married this girl we would probably be divorced by now.

It is not all about the shoes, important part nonetheless. For my case, I welcome all the opportunities to heel as long as it doesn't disrupt the natural equilibrium!

just my 2c

Pam

[Magickman]

Misalliance-- A mismatch of partners in marriage. It happens, probably more often in the case of people with socially marginalizing eccentricities, such as men who wear heels. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with guys wearing heels. It can even be a chick magnet, a mark of iconoclastic independence. But for women who just don't like it, then it becomes a relational impediment. Some fellows can perhaps surrender their proclivities, if a woman's allure is sufficiently puissant. If a man is forced into involuntary change, to satisfy a woman's dictates, then the fundamental balance of a heterosexual relationship is shifted, to the detriment of not just the male, but of both parties. "She like everything about me, except the way I am," you might say. Does that sound like a recipe for success? On this board, I have read too many accounts of couple discord, relating to heels on men, to discount the importance of this issue. Of course, relationships and marriage are based on accommodation, like politics, finding agreements and solutions that all parties find acceptable. The bottom line, though, is keeping everyone happy. If both partners cannot live with an accommodation, then it is no solution at all. Each person must make their own decisions, based on their own priorities. My thought is that we best reach decisions and commitments, that we can live with in the long haul.

[heelsrule]

Shoes are not the only thing we compromise on in mariage. My wife doesn't know and unlikely ever will. I don't think she would like it but I suspect if I kept it indoors she might tolerate it, but I just wait until she is out or at times go for a walk at night in my remote area. But there are other things that I also refrain or cut back to keep life happy, none of which makes me feel bad or missing out. She is a great women and I know she puts up with alot of my stuff or ways and she also has made the odd sacifice. It gets down to whats important to each person. But if someone was to put shoes over mariage, then I'd say there wasn't much to save anyway. Shane

[BootBoy09]

It looks like there are many situations that are arising here. 1) The wife knows about it, but doesn't really support it, but at least she TOLERATES it and ACCEPTS it. 2) The wife knows about it, and DOES NOT accept it whatsoever. 3) The wife doesn't know about it, and you continue to keep that secret from her. 4) The wife knows about it, and totally digs it! I do not disagree nor agree with the 3rd situation. I guess for the sanctity of marriage, you want to be with that signifacant other forever, and are willing to live in secrecy forever. But also it could be a volatile scenario, let's say she finds a bunch of women's shoes in your dresser, closet, garage, etc. From there she can assume from a wide range of ideas. You'd have to be pretty damn good to keep secrets from your wife, because somehow they always seem to find out. In my personal opinion, open communication in a marriage is a must. I'd rather not keep my love of women's shoes a secret from my wife. It's something that is a part of me that I highly enjoy and which defines a part of my identity. If she can't respect that, then a part of me is lost and will never be happy in the future. In the beginning, before I was married, I told her that I enjoy wearing women's shoes. She was a little freaked out by it, but she opened up her mind, and now she totally loves the idea. She thinks that I should wear them more often. That's the open communication I have in my marriage. We work together and conquer challenges together. But it all depends on the situation you might be in. I am not disregarding the other facets of a marriage that are important to you. There are consequences to our actions. You just have to be smart about it, consider the cause and effects. If it works for you and you're happy, then all the power to you.

[BobHH]

My wife and, after losing her to a heart attack, my girlfriend (but no more) were both No. 4 above. How lucky can you get, except I don't have either one any more. None at all, now.

[Dawn HH]

BobHH:-) Hang in there. I'm sure that there is someone out there that would love palling around with a guy who enjoys wearing high heels. Cheers--- Dawn HH

[Magickman]

Bert, Bluetango, and Pam, all have wives unsympathetic to male heel wearing. My last relationship was much the same way, even though I was wearing high heels when we met.

In contrast, the relationship I now enjoy with my woman, Cindi, is multiply blessed. She accepts me the way I am, and does not attempt to stiffle my heeling.

Fighting with my partner about my footwear, is a battle I would not choose to wage. Better to select a partner who is in agreement, than one who is in conflict, not just about heels, but in general about lifestyle issues. Or so I see it. How about you?

[Dawn HH]

Magickman:-) That's certainly one way to look at the situation. Cheers--- Dawn HH