Current Middle East position any opinions

[hoverfly]

Who else would we be talking about? I don't thing the Chinese government would let the people have a tank or a Mig 29 at their front door step?

[Laurieheels]

That's doubtful, yes Hoverfly, I agree. But don't the people of a culture always suffer when the politicians and military generals decide to go to war? I am sure that there are Palestinians and Israelis that may not wish harm on one another even if they are in disagreement. We only see the loud, angry ones on television. I am sure some on both sides say "Can't we figure it out?" but they are lost in the shouts and picket signs.

[Firefox]

The vast majority of Palestinians and Israelis want peace. The terrorist element is but a small fraction that grabs all the attention.

[hoverfly]

Yes Laurie I do keep People and governments separate. After Sept 11, I was only one of few people who would go into stores that were run and manned by Arabs. They were happy to see me, but I can tell by the looks in their faces that they were hurting. Bad. Many times I have met people form different parts of the world and I have enjoyed their company as well they enjoyed mine. The Internet has made it possible to talk to others on a regular basis. One woman I talk to lives in Africa. After talking to her for some time I found out that she is a Muslim. Get this; she believes women should only do the cooking!!! Man how some things never change.

[IHeels]

Dr Shoe, unfortunatly I was right, there was another suicide attack today. Inga _________________ HEELS are POWER the HIGHER the BETTER. <font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: IHeels on 2002-04-11 11:37 ]</font>

[Firefox]

I think USA generally should take more of a member consensus role in the UN rather than trying to run things and act as ultimate world policeman. I'm not talking about foreign policy in Afghanistan here, but generally. For example many countries break UN reslutions but the USA decide which it will act on usually in it's own interests. Israel is a good example. Because of the huge Jewish lobby in USA politics they are treated with kid gloves. Don't think the rest of the world doesn't notice.

[hoverfly]

This may be so Firefox, but the U.N. is full of countries whose interests very so much that in order to have something done takes a long time. The U.N. is not a bad thing, but the U.N. as whole doses not necessarily fulfill the individual needs of one country. The truth is the U.S. dose allot of the dirty work for its allies. So don't think that us Americans are the only ones who play devil avocet here. <font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hoverfly on 2002-04-10 19:21 ]</font>

[Highluc]

But if the UN stands as a democratic forum why is it that some countries have VETO rights and others don't? Resolutions should be adopted regarding the world situation, not because of some national lobby interests.

[Firefox]

Yes, no good reason certain countries should have veto rights and others not. The UN is in need of reform in that respect.

[Laurieheels]

If you're looking for international police officers, they come from Canada, usually. That's our thing, well trained, poorly equipped military hoping to make everyone act friendly. Blessed are the peacekeepers, for they are oft deprived of their back bacon, suffer much hardship, and must watch hockey on video tape delay. _________________ I have to be me. No one else is going to do it! <font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Laurieheels on 2002-04-12 05:39 ]</font>

[IHeels]

International policeman: They (US) only take this role on because they have the size to do it. Inga

[Highluc]

I've been a peace maker and peace keeper and enjoyed working with police forces mainly from Canada and Sweden. Very professional, honest neutral cool personages. The job is tough, involving great unpredictable risks and often not appreciated by the local parties and the people back home. Most do it because of the good money but get disgusted after a while after facing the corruption and burocracie on the field. I got pissed off in Croatia and fledged after 4 months when I saw the fierce battles going on. Not between the warring factions but between Nato and the UN in the same HQ's. Nato guys got there to resolve the problem as quick as they could and return home to their families. The UN people (often retired frustrated military NCO's who got logistic and admin decission power) get a temporary outrageously paid contract for the duration of that conflict and will do everything to to delay resolving the conflict because that means the end of their jackpot. They are not in a hurry anyway because they work 9 to 5 in air conditionned buildings in a safe capital and have 4star hotels and discovery jeeps to cummute. I could tell 1000 stories of corruption and inefficiency and every nation plays that game. You got to be in there to believe it.

[hoverfly]

Well no wonder why the U.S. goes there own way and does not pay their U.N. dues on time. Oh well. It is true due to the size and economic resources of the U.S. make it possible to be a Supper power. NATO countries have discovered that they can't keep up with the U.S. in weapons development. So they are becoming sideliners watching the U.S. doing most of the police action.

[Highluc]

Europe could keep up in weapon development if they wanted to spend the money. The long time cry for a European defence force is doomed to fail due to all the budget cuts (most Euro countries have socialists in the government who think peace and freedom can be assured by only talks). It takes ages to come up with a new design weapon system because all the countries have different requirements and R&D takes place at different locations. One pearl of common absurdity took place lately when they developed the "emergency space capsule". for the European space agency (to be docked permanently on the international space station). Spain got the contract to develop and build the landing gear. The factory assigned by the government only produced tin cans and this is their first in the world of aviation or space. The vast resources and abilities to spend secret taxpayers money for projects is what allows the US to produce such advanced excellent wearpon systems. Europeans spend more money ending up with an inferior product in the inventories but the polititians are happy and the money flows to economical weak regions. The number of projects that were cancelled after reaching the prototype stage and found unsuccesfull or cancelled by a subsequent government is astonishing. Examples are the Brittish TSR2, Nimrod AEW (UK AWACS), Canadian CF105 Arrow, French Mirage 4000, etc...

[Stu]

The whole Middle East situation is sad, sad, sad, and there is plenty of blame to go around. The Israelis have not served themselves well over the years by building up settlements in the West Bank or Gaza, nor did they demonstrate a commitment to peace by electing Sharon as their prime minister. On the other hand, Arafat demonstrated his ultimate goal continues to be the destruction of Israel when he turned down Israel's offer for a Palestinian state (including East Jerusalem) in 2000. What is truly sad is that terrorism has hijacked the entire Palestinian cause. Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Hezbollah are delighted to see the Israelis in the West Bank now, because the international condemnation of Israel serves their cause, and they care not one iota about the Palestinans who suffer as a result. What we need is a moderate Palestinian leader who is willing to give up terrorism and seriously talk peace with the Israelis (thereby putting more international pressure on the Israelis to talk peace than the U.S. could ever put on them). But where are these moderate leaders? If any of them spoke up and tried to exert some leadership, they would be killed. The result is that the terrorists get what they want, which is suicide bombings followed by Israeli reprisals and more suicide bombings. They will never defeat the Israelis in this way, but they may succeed in bringing the Israelis down to their level and causing them to commit some real atrocities. (I hope reports of a Jenin massacre are not the start of this.) For all the power that the U.S. showed in Afghanistan, we are relatively powerless to do much with the Israelis and Palestinians, which is also sad.

[Dr. Shoe]

[The result is that the terrorists get what they want, which is suicide bombings followed by Israeli reprisals and more suicide bombings. They will never defeat the Israelis in this way, but they may succeed in bringing the Israelis down to their level and causing them to commit some real atrocities. (I hope reports of a Jenin massacre are not the start of this.) For all the power that the U.S. showed in Afghanistan, we are relatively powerless to do much with the Israelis and Palestinians, which is also sad.

[Charlie]

Sooner or later, the Arab countries are going to unite in an attempt to totally eliminate Israel. There's just too much hatred festering in that part of the world. This is ultimately going to result in a nuclear exchange someday. I see this as an excellent catalyst to usher in the end times mentioned earlier in this thread. What a stupid waste of humanity. If only we as a world could unite and focus on important things like real exploration of our solar system and beyond. Heck, such knowledge and capability could come in quite handy should we discover a "doomsday" asteroid plummeting towards us. In any event, I'd be willing to bet this would make all of our current problems seem ridiculously trivial! The world needs to think "outside of the box" (I can't believe I used that new, stupid cliche!) Charlie

[Dr. Shoe]

I honestly do not believe that the Arab states neighbouring Israel have either the resources or any real inclination to get into a fight with them. They were beaten in 1948 when the state of Israel was only a year old, they were Humiliated in 1967 and again in 1973. Evry time they have attacked Israel they have lost more ground. But let's examine the politics: Israel is the only truly democratic country in the region, only Egypt bothers to make any pretence at democracy. Lebanon is WEAK and only exists by the grace of Syria which in itself cannot afford much of a war. Egypt is struggling against internal fundamentalist rebels which leaves only Jordan. This is the only country that has particularly strong diplomatic and trade links with the only power in the region that would allow itself to attack Israel- Iraq. However, Saddam is a world pariah, and if the Jordanians were to be seen to be taking any sort of assistance from him then they would be regarded as the same. Moreover, we should not forget that the pre-saddam royal family were related to the King of Jordan. The Saudis have too much to lose by attempting anything and any other nation lacks the resources or the inclination. Let's not forget that not all Arabs are Palestinians and that The Syrians, the Egyptians and the Saudis regard them as lazy good-for-nothings that almost deserve what they get, or at least as something as a pain in the arse. This only leaves the Jordanians. Although they are the most closely related to the Palestinians and that the West Bank was part of there territory, they view them with some contempt and quite frankly don't want the problem. Which is why the Jordanian government has remained extremely quiet about the whole thing.

[Dr. Shoe]

The Saudis have too much to lose by attempting anything and any other nation lacks the resources or the inclination.

Now I see that the Saudis have 8000 troops on the border with Jordan which in places is only 15 miles from Israel. They say that they have APCs and rocket launchers which would suggest a first line defence only and not an offensive force.

[dawn]

greetings i am usually a watcher on the forum but i think i'll speak my mind on this one (after all i do live in israel) You all have to understand that this situation will not and can not come to an end as long as israel current political stracture continues. let me explains : it dosn't matter who is the prime minister of israel (it might aswell be clinton himself) in order to issue a command to evacuate the occupied territories the PM needs a majority within the kneset (senat). since israel has a lot of small parties and especially religious parties who beleive israel should not be devided in any way the PM cannot pass an order like that without bringing his own government down , the only way to leave the fanatics outside of the government (coalition) is to form and alliance of left (moderate) and right (moderate) parties . but ... those 2 flanks cannot agree on anything so what each of them does when it manage to gain the control at the elections is to ask for support from the religious parties and they get it , form a government and rule , but at a price --- israel will not be devided and the settlements will not be evacuated !. you will notice i have said nothing about the palestinians and that beceuse i beleive that only when peace will come between ourselfs we will manage peace with others and it dosn't matter who will rule the palestinians. as for the other arab countries they beleive israel is holy to them (muslims) so as long as we sit there we are blocking them from going into thier holy places and they hate us and they tried to destroy us and they will continue to try .... they only problem is that a total arab coalition against israel today will probably destroy israel but the cost will be the world beceuse when israel will be forced to use it's huge amount of nuclear arsenal it will mean world war 3 and a very sad day so arab countries are afraid of that but that dosnt stop them from acting in political and economical way in order to destroy us and i realy don't beleive this will change in the near future , not as long as they live by muslim ways .

[Dr. Shoe]

On 2002-06-01 03:26, dawn wrote:

(after all i do live in israel)

Really! Wherabouts? I used to live in Tel-Aviv at 15 Frishman Street.

[dawn]

cool i now live in Beer-sheva , i have one more year til the end of my degree.

[azraelle]

Pardon my stupidity, but are your degree classes in Hebrew, English, or?

[azraelle]

I thought I'd share a paragraph from today's editorial of (black American) columnist Thomas Sowell that seemed particularly relevant and profound:

The great curse of the 20th century was the inability of decent poeple to realize that what was unthinkable to them was both thinkable and doable by others--like Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot. Are we to wait until Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction and we wake up one morning to find a couple of American cities obliterated?

Any thoughts??

[Bubba136]

It's not only American cities that are in danger. It's the entire western culture. People in Europe and the UK are just as vulnerable as Americans.

[Dr. Shoe]

I was pondering a point only today. The arabs say that they hate Western Culture and claim that it is evil, but they still take our money for their oil. If we were to totally disengage from all forms of trade and sever all links with the moslim world, then would they continue to be as hostile to western culture as they claim? Or would they be happy to live in a medieval world? Without the mega-bucks from oil, the Arab world would be just a collection of desert tribes and hill farmers. Another thought occurs, where do most of world's drugs come from? Is it me or does anyone else think they are total hypocrites?

[Phoenix764]

Hello All. Speaking as both an American and a Jew, I would like to make some comments on this topic. As everyone can remember in recent history America had 2 major terrorist events: the Oklahoma City bombing done by an American citizen Timothy McVeigh, and then the Sept. 11 attack by Al Quida. These 2 attacks, particularly the last caused shock waves around the civilized world. Every nation understood our anger, and many actively responded with help both in rescue of victims and the war on Al Quida. What we all are forgetting is that Israel has been experiencing the equivalent of the Oklahoma City bombing on a WEEKLY BASIS. Since Israel has been experiencing terrorist activities for so long, is it no wonder that that powers that be are now being pro-active in the hunt for terrorists? Take the terrorists out of action BEFORE they do another bombing! I'm for even more radical action: anyone harboring a terrorist is elinimated also. I believe that the palesteins have a right to a happy, productive life - but NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF INNOCENT ISRAELI CITIZENS

[azraelle]

Hello All...What we all are forgetting is that Israel has been experiencing the equivalent of the Oklahoma City bombing on a WEEKLY BASIS. Since Israel has been experiencing terrorist activities for so long, is it no wonder that that powers that be are now being pro-active in the hunt for terrorists? Take the terrorists out of action BEFORE they do another bombing! I'm for even more radical action: anyone harboring a terrorist is elinimated also. I believe that the palesteins have a right to a happy, productive life - but NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF INNOCENT ISRAELI CITIZENS

As God is my witness, I have been a staunch supporter of Israel all of my adult life, and most of the rest of my life as well. That said, and not wanting to play "devil's advocate", the tactics of the Palestinians, while perhaps directed at the wrong targets, are not, in either form nor degree, much different from those of the Sternists, Irgun, Etzel, or Palmach against the Brittish in 1945 & 1946 in what is now the state of Israel. It is possible to see things from the Palestinians' point of view, however twisted that may seem to those who know the real truth about how they came to be...

If the Palestinians had received a full and complete lesson in history, their wrath would be justified against the secular and religious leaders of Lebanon, Iraq, Jordan, Syria, and Egypt, who entreated their ancestors to "leave palestine so that we can have a completely Jewish kill zone, and when we are finished you can move back in and fertilize the fields with the Jewish corpses"! And who NEVER allowed the palestinians they had thus coerced to abdicate their homeland to assimilate into the populations of the surrounding Arab nations to which they had fled, when events of 1947 & 1948 didn't go as planned. And who kept them bottled up in little Ghettos on the Israeli border, hoping that "next year in Jerusalem" the Arab Nations would be victorious.

So from the Arab point of view, the 1947 war is still going on, and will continue for as many years as it takes to wipe Israel off the map, present peace treaties notwithstanding. And since the Palestinians would never have received a balanced, "two-sided", non-religious (read non-Islamic) education in modern history inside those same ghettos on the border, they are still believing with all their hearts and souls that they are helping their Arab "brothers" fight the infidel in a holy jihad. Macchiavelli would have been proud of how well the Palestinians' Arab brothers have so accurately translated his philosophy into action in these "modern times"!

And ANY nation or culture that supports Israel is, in their eyes, "harboring the enemy", and should therefore "be eliminated" also. There is room for the compassion of Christ, or of Mohammed, on all sides, unless you propose to nuke the entire Moslem world to radioactive cinders.

[Phoenix764]

Azraelle, Thank you for your in-depth and insigthfull comments on my postings. I can understand an attack against a military target, but not against civilians. It gets my blood boiling, and since this has been going on for quite a while and there does not appear to be an end in sight I'm not sure what to do about it. Israel is concerned about defense, and is not attacking her neighbors unless there are exceptional circumstances. I have nothing against the arab people or against the muslim religion, but they do need to leave the jews in Israel only in peace. That region of the earth has had more blood spilled in the name of god than any other that I can think of.

[Bubba136]

azraelle wrote: "tactics of the Palestinians, while perhaps directed at the wrong targets, are not, in either form nor degree, much different from those of the Sternists, Irgun, Etzel, or Palmach against the British in 1945 & 1946 in what is now the state of Israel." The old saying "one nations terrorists are another nations freedom fighters" is applicable here. Menachem Begin of Irgun and Mohammed Yasser Abdul-Ra'ouf Qudwa Al-Husseini (Yassar Arafat), Al Fatah, for instance. "So from the Arab point of view, the 1947 war is still going on, and will continue for as many years as it takes to wipe Israel off the map, present peace treaties notwithstanding." None of the present peace agreements will work. The only peace treaties that Arabs will ever agreed to follow just needs two sentences: 1) Remove the state of Israel from the face of the earth. 2) kill every Jew on earth. " ANY nation or culture that supports Israel is, in their eyes, "harboring the enemy," and should therefore "be eliminated."" Recent indications reveal that Muslims, world wide, are working hard not only to eliminate the state of Israel, but to establish Islam as the only religion on earth. To achieve this, Muslims must eliminate Western Culture entirely. For, Western Culture is Islam's greatest enemy. I firmly believe that President Bush is very, very close to telling the Israelis to "do what ever must be done to eliminate terrorism from your region."