Current Middle East position any opinions

[IHeels]

What a mess, when the millenium celebration took place it seemed OK (sort of). Look now daily suicide bombings etc. Any opinions, solutions? Sorry for being serious, sometimes I am. Inga

[Melissa]

For my thinking, I think peace talk are really no help to each other. They were like having 5 or 6 peace talk for the last 18 month yet nothing turns out but the worse. Actually both parties do have their roles to play. The Israelis is pressuring Arafat to do something.. in a way is good but I feel they have also gone a little overboard. They can't just retaliate all the time because it will only cause more harm but the Hamas group also never stop sending their suicide bombers over.... For my opinion... I guess it stated in the Bible ( I'm a little religious though ) that they won't really have peace till the end times.

[Guest Allu]

Answer is simply. Every young palestenian girl/boy should move to a religious neutral country and meet there jewish boy/girl and marry him/her. Further every young jewish girl/boy should move to a religious neutral country and meet there palestenian boy/girl and marry him/her. After that they and their children should come back to Israel/Palestine and start the peace. When I met my wife I didn't aske her if she was cristian, jewish or muslim. I just fall in love. During WW2 died millions of people. After war we wice men create "The European Coal and Steel Community" to control war industry raw materials and develop our economy. Why the hell they can't make peace because we could and we killed even more people.

[Trolldeg]

America needs to lay off the double standard and stop supporting Israel. The only solution is for Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories. It doesn't matter how many palestinians they kill, there will always be suicide bombers as long as they wont withdraw.

[Dr. Shoe]

Actually, the answer is not that simple. Firstly, the Israelis annexed the West Bank, The Gaza Strip, The Sinai Peninsula and the Golan Heights in 1967 as a result of the Six Day War and to ask the Israelis to hand it back would be like asking the US to hand southern California back to the Mexicans. Secondly, there are now a huge number of Israelis living in the "Disputed Territory"- (around 10% of the population?) and they would either be displaced against their wishes or any wishing to stay would be victims of viscious ethnic cleansing of a scale that would dwarf the Balkan troubles. Let us not forget that the settlements are built on land purchased from Palistinians at vastly inflated prices. Lastly, withdrawal from these regions would reduce the size of the country to around a third and bring every single Israeli man, woman and child within range of Syrian or Jordanian artillery. Solution: Withdrawal of Israeli Forces and set up a "Buffer State" totally demilitarised and directly policed and supervised by the UN. Requirement of passports to enter and leave. Eventually, this would become a separate autonomous state, though this in itself could take 50 years.

[hoverfly]

Can the west be the police of the world? I don't know but I don't want to look like an uninvited big brother. It just make those who hate the west madder. I am sure it is going to get worse before it gets better. It could be possible that we might see something similar to another Berlin Wall or Korea at the 32nd parallel? There is one big difference though. We are not keeping two governments separate with one ethnic group. We are separating two governments with two ethnic groups with two religious beliefs. All this for the same god. What a shame.

[Firefox]

I agree with Allu. Greater cultural integration is required. Stop indocrination of young children. They have got to stop killing and start loving. They are both as bad as each other, I don't take any sides in the issue. It's the same problem in Northern Ireland. Killing is senseless and will never solve anything.

[Dr. Shoe]

On 2002-04-03 02:02, hoverfly wrote:

Can the west be the police of the world? I don't know but I don't want to look like an uninvited big brother. It just make those who hate the west madder. I am sure it is going to get worse before it gets better. It could be possible that we might see something similar to another Berlin Wall or Korea at the 32nd parallel? There is one big difference though. We are not keeping two governments separate with one ethnic group. We are separating two governments with two ethnic groups with two religious beliefs. All this for the same god. What a shame.

I was actually thinking of a force composed of peoples from countries that neither support zionism or palestinianism (?) For example: Chinese, South Africans, etc. I gather that in these kind of situation, the personnel are selected from neutral countries which is why there are a lot of Scandinavian UN troops in Cyprus.

[Dr. Shoe]

Another good trick would be to lock Arrafat and Sharon in a room and leave them to it for six or seven years.

[Guest Allu]

How about lobotomy-surgery to both guys?

[Melissa]

Oops, today Israelis have send in another 100 tanks to secure the autonomous area of Palestian. Looks like this conflict won't really end soon.

[IHeels]

Suppose that's what you get for electing hard line right wingers. To the right of Genghis Khan as the saying goes! Inga _________________ HEELS are POWER the HIGHER the BETTER. <font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: IHeels on 2002-04-04 12:44 ]</font>

[Laurieheels]

The conflict goes back over a thousand years, and let's face it, the Crusades did not help any. Christianity, Islam, and Judaism all find the same place holy. And of course, everyone would like to control that one place. I did not like seeing pictures of tanks purposely driving over parked cars, and of course, this occupation of military vehicles is not ging to end anything. The problem is so old that someone has to go back, find the common roots, and as mentioned above, cultural integration must occur. After all, we have three religions with very similar foundations (they all share, no one can dispute it) and maybe it is like three sisters who are so alike they cannot stand it. It's like a family fued between cousins, and they're not calling names anymore. This one will be tough to stop.

[hoverfly]

Right now Israel has the upper hand. Now what if something changes that? What if another countrie come in to aid the Palestinians? Some how it's got to stop soon. Why? Because Israel has nuclear weapons if they lose we all lose. It took allot from the U.S. to not have Israel respond back during the Gulf war when Scud missiles were falling down. What make us so sure that it can be done again? _________________ Hello, my name is Hoverfly. I am a high heel addict…. Weeeeeeeeeee!!! <font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hoverfly on 2002-04-06 06:57 ]</font>

[IHeels]

Agree Hoverfly, anyhow here's my opinion including some facts I have gleaned from the media. As Palestinian suicide bombers stepped up their terror attacks late last week on Israeli civilians and the Israel Defence Force responded with a renewed assault on the West Bank headquarters of Palestinian Authority chairman Yasser Arafat, US Secretary of State Colin Powell made a series of telephone calls. He spoke to Mr Arafat, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and the leaders of the Arab League and America's NATO allies. In each call Mr Powell delivered two messages. He insisted that the Arab leaders must unequivocally condemn the terror campaign if they want to promote the Saudi peace plan, which offers full recognition of Israel in return for an Israeli withdrawal from the territories occupied in the 1967 Six-Day War; and he warned that Israel must not undermine Mr Arafat if it wants him to put a stop to terrorism. These two demands embraced every element in the mess that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has become: the Israeli and Palestinian leaderships, and the US and the Arab states as indispensable guarantors of any truce that might be possible. These elements only have to be assessed according to the conditions set down by Mr Powell, however, for the formidable obstacles to a truce, let alone a permanent settlement, to become apparent. The encirclement and bombardment of Mr Arafat's headquarters may not be intended to kill him, but it is clearly aimed at ending his ability to assert effective leadership of the Palestinian people - at removing him as one of the elements in the equation. If that happens, he will in large measure have himself to blame, for his failure to repudiate terrorism forthrightly has fuelled the impression that he covertly supports it. Mr Sharon has declared Mr Arafat to be an enemy of Israel, and certainly he has failed to be a peace partner. But by intensifying its onslaught on Ramallah, Israel seems intent on eliminating the only peace partner it is likely to have, for there is no alternative to Mr Arafat among the leaders of the fanatical groups sending young Palestinians out to kill themselves and as many Israelis as they can. Mr Arafat has undermined his own position by dealing equivocally with such groups, but by eliminating him, politically or physically, Mr Sharon risks creating a vacuum that is most likely to be filled by those who train the suicide bombers. Each man, Mr Arafat and Mr Sharon, has taken a path that can only lead to more war, and after so many refusals to take any other path, it may be wondered whether what each really wants is not a negotiated settlement, but victory. If so, it is a futile hope, for a permanent end to the conflict will not be brought about by Israel's military supremacy or by the readiness of young Palestinians to become martyrs. It can only arise from the willingness of both sides to make peace, and the willingness of the other elements identified by Mr Powell, the Arab states and, above all, the US, to ensure that the desire for peace is translated into action. Enough said. Inga

[hoverfly]

My Dad is a retired History teacher and his option is Arafat is no longer in charge as he uses to be. Sharon is a thug pushing the Palestinians around. But that was before things had escalated. It seem to me it’s the older and the wiser that governs the world. But it's the young and the (some times) foolish that take real action. Today, people call suicide bombings terrorism. In the United Stats during the Revolutionary war the smaller, weaker Colonials “Americans” hid behind rocks and trees shooting their muskets. While the more powerful larger Red Coats "British" stood out in rows out in the open shooting back. The British called the Colonials cowards. I guess to day the Colonials would have be called terrorists, but guess what. We won.

[Highluc]

Arafat started of as a terrorist decades ago gaining "world fame" by blowing up 3 highjacked airliners in a desert (end of 60's). It's very difficult for him to condemn terrorist actions after gaining his popularity in this part of the world by doing just that. My guess is the US will "slowly" build up the pressure on Israel but only after leaving them sufficient time to do a little cleanup in the occupied territories, allowing them the possibility to do the dirty work crushing terrorist organisations and destroying their weapons and logistics. This is the kind of strategy that was used in most conflicts lately. Just look at the Gulf, the Balcans, Somalia and Afghanistan. There was never total victory in any of those conflicts, just some serious cleanup till "peace was enforced" but enabling all parties to survive in a "controlled democracy". This is about the only solution if a conflict is not to escalate to a whole region. Nobody around would permit one of the parties to be anhilated without getting some serious help from outside, in that part of the world rapidly growing to uncontrolable actions which would affect the whole world economy.

[Achilleus]

Hoverfly, the difference is that the US Minute Men fired on uniformed soldiers. Palestinian suicide bombers and Saudi hijackers expressly target civilians. Nowadays, the US Minute Men would be called guerillas or insurgents, as the Viet Cong in Nam were called. Achilleus

[Trolldeg]

wonder why arno hasn't offered his expert oppinion on this matter yet.

[hoverfly]

On 2002-04-06 22:26, Achilleus wrote:

Hoverfly, the difference is that the US Minute Men fired on uniformed soldiers. Palestinian suicide bombers and Saudi hijackers expressly target civilians. Nowadays, the US Minute Men would be called guerillas or insurgents, as the Viet Cong in Nam were called.

Achilleus

This is true. But what I am pointing out is that what the Colonials did was to change the way in which war was fought. War really has no fixed rules. Those who can change the rules of war were the ones most likely to win. What is going on in the Middle East could be interrupted as a new way to wage war. Instead of going behind enemy’s lines, destroying fuel and ammo. You go after those who are supporters of the enemy’s government, the people. In this case you may kill many people, but how many Israelis have been driven out of the country already?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hoverfly on 2002-04-07 01:23 ]</font>

[Achilleus]

I think you are right that we're seeing a new way to wage war, the employment of terrorists as the main attack. But the general principle of terror is the same as that employed in WW2 in the terror bombing campaigns of the Luftwaffe and later Allies. For the most terror in WW2 was not effective as a means to break the enemy morale until the level of destruction reached became obscene (think Hiroshima)... and hopefully it never gets to that level in Israel or anywhere else.

[hoverfly]

On 2002-04-07 03:11, Achilleus wrote:

I think you are right that we're seeing a new way to wage war, the employment of terrorists as the main attack. But the general principle of terror is the same as that employed in WW2 in the terror bombing campaigns of the Luftwaffe and later Allies. For the most terror in WW2 was not effective as a means to break the enemy morale until the level of destruction reached became obscene (think Hiroshima)... and hopefully it never gets to that level in Israel or anywhere else.

I think physical destruction is not the goal here. It's psychological warfare. When you have bombers coming over a target you have advance warning. You can have a peace of mind if you know what’s coming you can take some kind of action like going to a bomb shelter. However with a human individual, suicide side bomber attacking civilians you have no warning. This is why it can be so effective. You are going to be looking behind your back all the time. Now if you keep the bombings up over time it will tare you apart. Am I next? Poof… Unlike WWII, today you have mass transportation, the jet age. The first thing you are going to do when you had enough is to get away from it all. By, By!!! Or politically force the government to do something to end it all. Or take a lot of drugs.

[Dr. Shoe]

On 2002-04-06 10:02, IHeels wrote:

As Palestinian suicide bombers stepped up their terror attacks late last week on Israeli civilians and the Israel Defence Force responded with a renewed assault on the West Bank headquarters of Palestinian Authority chairman Yasser Arafat, US Secretary of State Colin Powell made a series of telephone calls. He spoke to Mr Arafat, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and the leaders of the Arab League and America's NATO allies. In each call Mr Powell delivered two messages. He insisted that the Arab leaders must unequivocally condemn the terror campaign if they want to promote the Saudi peace plan, which offers full recognition of Israel in return for an Israeli withdrawal from the territories occupied in the 1967 Six-Day War; and he warned that Israel must not undermine Mr Arafat if it wants him to put a stop to terrorism. These two demands embraced every element in the mess that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has become: the Israeli and Palestinian leaderships, and the US and the Arab states as indispensable guarantors of any truce that might be possible. These elements only have to be assessed according to the conditions set down by Mr Powell, however, for the formidable obstacles to a truce, let alone a permanent settlement, to become apparent.

The encirclement and bombardment of Mr Arafat's headquarters may not be intended to kill him, but it is clearly aimed at ending his ability to assert effective leadership of the Palestinian people - at removing him as one of the elements in the equation. If that happens, he will in large measure have himself to blame, for his failure to repudiate terrorism forthrightly has fuelled the impression that he covertly supports it. Mr Sharon has declared Mr Arafat to be an enemy of Israel, and certainly he has failed to be a peace partner. But by intensifying its onslaught on Ramallah, Israel seems intent on eliminating the only peace partner it is likely to have, for there is no alternative to Mr Arafat among the leaders of the fanatical groups sending young Palestinians out to kill themselves and as many Israelis as they can. Mr Arafat has undermined his own position by dealing equivocally with such groups, but by eliminating him, politically or physically, Mr Sharon risks creating a vacuum that is most likely to be filled by those who train the suicide bombers.

Each man, Mr Arafat and Mr Sharon, has taken a path that can only lead to more war, and after so many refusals to take any other path, it may be wondered whether what each really wants is not a negotiated settlement, but victory. If so, it is a futile hope, for a permanent end to the conflict will not be brought about by Israel's military supremacy or by the readiness of young Palestinians to become martyrs. It can only arise from the willingness of both sides to make peace, and the willingness of the other elements identified by Mr Powell, the Arab states and, above all, the US, to ensure that the desire for peace is translated into action.

Enough said.

Have you noticed how the Suicide attacks have stopped since the Israelis have Arafat bottled up?

Moreover, how can the Israelis take seriously an American plea to not take military action against terrorism when the US is currently taking military action against terrorism?

[IHeels]

Dr Shoe, You wrote: "Have you noticed how the Suicide attacks have stopped since the Israelis have Arafat bottled up?" Give it time? Inga

[hoverfly]

Quote: "how can the Israelis take seriously an American plea to not take military action against terrorism when the US is currently taking military action against terrorism?" True, true, true. Two things, I bet Israel is number one on the most hated country list in the Arab/Muslim world. If Israel pissed of enough countries they could be in very bad shape. Second,do we really know what are the true intentions of the U.S. with Israel? I think the U.S. is just buying time for Israel to finish up in the West Bank.

[Highluc]

I agree they buy time but they also want some stability to return before they challenge Sadam again. Both the US and UK seem very keen to start some new actions in Irak but this is impossible if the rest of the Arab world is still busy with Israel. I wonder how much time they will leave between the 2 conflicts. I suspect Powels visit to the Arabian leaders is not only about the Israelis and Palestinians. With the Balcans and Afghanistan dwindling they got to find some "new exercise grounds" to keep their forces busy and weapon industry rolling. Why did they ever break up that Berlin wall, everything was so nice and peacefull with the eternal arms race against communism. Very few victims and a prosperous future during the good old cold war.

[hoverfly]

Why did they break down the Berlin wall? The Soviet government ran out of money that they took form the Czar in 1916/17. Besides, China it just around the bend for the next cold war in the next 20 years or less. We just need something to keep us busy until then.

[Highluc]

That's really forward thinking, putting the little yellow guys in the equation.

[hoverfly]

No, it's a known fact on what there agenda is for the future. They too want to be a supper power. Right now they are buying and manufacturing top of the line Russian weapons. Don't tell me that they are not doing some kind of reverse engineering, R and D here. _________________ Hello, my name is Hoverfly. I am a high heel addict…. Weeeeeeeeeee!!! <font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hoverfly on 2002-04-10 03:35 ]</font>

[Laurieheels]

Make sure you seperate the Chinese people from the Chinese government in your talks, okay? I meet many nice chinese people every day.