Blockchain Revolution: from the internet of information to the internet of value

[kneehighs]

Shopify (an e-commerce platform), a publicly traded company on the NYSE , will now enable MONERO transactions for the below mentioned musicians.  Shopify already accepts Bitcoin. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurashin/2017/12/05/cryptocurrency-monero-to-be-accepted-by-45-musicians-such-as-mariah-carey-g-eazy-sia-for-holidays/#3d09d22f7885

Edited December 6, 2017 by kneehighs

[kneehighs]

To simplify. 

1. There are a limited number of Bitcoins available: 21 million. 
2. 4 million are lost forever. 
3. That leaves 17 million.  
4. These coins will NEVER INCREASE in number.
5. But the number of users is increasing and will continue to increase geometrically.

It's a new paradigm.  It's not a bubble.  

EDIT: I'm keeping my eye on BitIndia, which allows people in India to be their own bank.  

 

Edited December 6, 2017 by kneehighs

[Shyheels]

Never is a long time. I am always sceptical when I hear people say something will never happen. 

It is impossible to say definitively that this is not a bubble. One simply does not know. In many ways this is something unique. But it us exhibiting many of the characteristics of the classic market bubble. 

[Gudulitooo]

17 hours ago, kneehighs said:

To simplify. 

1. There are a limited number of Bitcoins available: 21 million. 
2. 4 million are lost forever. 
3. That leaves 17 million.  
4. These coins will NEVER INCREASE in number.

Yet they could suddently increase by one million at any time.... Well or more... Kind of remember me an old story with a sword threatening a guy's head

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-26/satoshi-secrets-why-nearly-4-million-bitcoins-are-lost-forever

Finally, there’s the question of what became of the bitcoins belonging to Satoshi, the pseudonymous creator of the crypto-currency, who has not been not been heard from since 2011. Chainalysis says wallets associated with Satoshi represent about 1 million bitcoins (the company will provide a more specific figure later this year), and that its model assumes that those coins—which date from a time when it was easy to mine 50 bitcoin with a laptop—are gone forever. This assumption is a big one and, if it proves to be incorrect, the number of circulating bitcoins could suddenly increase significantly and deliver a shock to the market.

And you could also loose them suddenly. Otherwise you would not need these web wallets to store the keys.

https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@abbak7/i-forgot-my-pin-an-epic-tale-of-losing-usd30-000-in-bitcoin

 

[Shyheels]

I see that $64 million in Bitcoin was swiped by hackers who broke into one of the "mining" concerns that produce these things.

It's a bit harder to break into the Treasury, the Mint, Fort Knox or the Bureau of Engraving.  

[Shyheels]

Interesting that along with near daily stories this past week about Bitcoin and huge profits that people are making, the cryptocurrency has surged 50% in value. This in one week. This is classic bubble stuff. It may go a lot higher yet, but there will come a time when people decide to cash out, and it’s all going to end in tears. 

[kneehighs]

3 hours ago, Gudulitooo said:

Yet they could suddently increase by one million at any time.... Well or more... Kind of remember me an old story with a sword threatening a guy's head

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-11-26/satoshi-secrets-why-nearly-4-million-bitcoins-are-lost-forever

Finally, there’s the question of what became of the bitcoins belonging to Satoshi, the pseudonymous creator of the crypto-currency, who has not been not been heard from since 2011. Chainalysis says wallets associated with Satoshi represent about 1 million bitcoins (the company will provide a more specific figure later this year), and that its model assumes that those coins—which date from a time when it was easy to mine 50 bitcoin with a laptop—are gone forever. This assumption is a big one and, if it proves to be incorrect, the number of circulating bitcoins could suddenly increase significantly and deliver a shock to the market.

And you could also loose them suddenly. Otherwise you would not need these web wallets to store the keys.

https://steemit.com/cryptocurrency/@abbak7/i-forgot-my-pin-an-epic-tale-of-losing-usd30-000-in-bitcoin

 

If that happens, there might be a short term correction.  Corrections are expected.  Personally, I'm always prepared for a correction.

1 hour ago, Shyheels said:

I see that $64 million in Bitcoin was swiped by hackers who broke into one of the "mining" concerns that produce these things.

It's a bit harder to break into the Treasury, the Mint, Fort Knox or the Bureau of Engraving.  

Hacking isn't unique to Bitcoin.  

I really can't believe the naysayers here.  Volume is up on Bitcoin so much that even Coinbase.com crashed. Whales upon whales are getting in now.  More buyers than sellers.

[kneehighs]

19 minutes ago, Shyheels said:

Interesting that along with near daily stories this past week about Bitcoin and huge profits that people are making, the cryptocurrency has surged 50% in value. This in one week. This is classic bubble stuff. It may go a lot higher yet, but there will come a time when people decide to cash out, and it’s all going to end in tears. 

ALL going to end in tears?    Unless one is smart enough to secure gains.  

[Shyheels]

10 minutes ago, kneehighs said:

If that happens, there might be a short term correction.  Corrections are expected.  Personally, I'm always prepared for a correction.

Hacking isn't unique to Bitcoin.  

I really can't believe the naysayers here.  Volume is up on Bitcoin so much that even Coinbase.com crashed. Whales upon whales are getting in now.  More buyers than sellers.

Bubble. 

[Shyheels]

10 minutes ago, kneehighs said:

ALL going to end in tears?    Unless one is smart enough to secure gains.  

No doubt some will cash in and laugh all the way to the bank with the dollars, pesos,  euros, Sterling, whatever that they scored off their flutter in Bitcoin. But there are going to be a lot of people who lose their shirts. And I can hear already the loud cries of why didn’t the government do something, how could they let this happen...

[Gudulitooo]

What strikes me is that because Bitcoin is web/internet/new/hype/ashtag/crypto etc. people don't think of it as a regular money.

As a regular money, bitcoin shows a high deflation rate, isn't it ?  That means, e.g. your house paid 1000 bitcoins a year ago, now is only worth 500 bitcoins, and is expected to be only worth 100 bitcoins the following year. The results are well known : you will never be able to sell the house when your job is moved, because in this context, people prefer delaying their investments to the year after (when the house is worth even less) and stop consuming. Thus you even do not buy a house, fearing you cannot sell it after.

Shyheels, this is very strange: while the money itself sounds like a inflation bubble, in fact it relates to the complete opposite to those who enter the system.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Gudulitooo

[kneehighs]

2 hours ago, Gudulitooo said:

What strikes me is that because Bitcoin is web/internet/new/hype/ashtag/crypto etc. people don't think of it as a regular money.

As a regular money, bitcoin shows a high deflation rate, isn't it ?  That means, e.g. your house paid 1000 bitcoins a year ago, now is only worth 500 bitcoins, and is expected to be only worth 100 bitcoins the following year. The results are well known : you will never be able to sell the house when your job is moved, because in this context, people prefer delaying their investments to the year after (when the house is worth even less) and stop consuming. Thus you even do not buy a house, fearing you cannot sell it after.

Shyheels, this is very strange: while the money itself sounds like a inflation bubble, in fact it relates to the complete opposite to those who enter the system.

That's right.  Bitcoin is a deflationary currency b/c only 21 million will ever be minted.  That number will never change.  And now you have Wall Street money fighting for their share of bitcoin.

CoinBase and Gemini just rolled out institutional level storage agreements for BTC.  Institutional money (aka Wall Street money) in bitcoin can now be bonded and insured.   With the advent of Bitcoin Futures trading on CBOE, CME, and NASDAQ, institutions can now buy bitcoin safely.   This will allow an Exchange Traded Fund because ETF's can now buy the futures. Some will apply a trading strategy called cash and carry arbitrage.  This where the futures price is greater than the spot price.  They sell the Futures contract for 20K and buy bitcoin at 15K and keep the difference.

The Early Adopter stage is almost over.  IMHO, by the time NASDAQ rolls out bitcoin futures, it will be over.

Then it's Wall Street stage.

Then it's Main Street (Square Cash) 

We are at the beginning of an S-curve of the greatest bull market run of all time.  Fasten your seat belt and HODL (Hold On for Dear Life).

Edited December 7, 2017 by kneehighs

[Gudulitooo]

1 hour ago, kneehighs said:

That's right.  Bitcoin is a deflationary currency b/c only 21 million will ever be minted

 

I see it now. This is ridiculously simple.

Suppose everybody on the planet adopts Bitcoin, then everything on earth that had a price or a value will have to be among the 21 millions a way or another.

It should have been shared from the beginning. Eg. one square kilometers of land is worth one (I don't know)th of the earth total valuable land, thus is it worth one (same fraction)th of 21 million Bitcoins. Even lower to take into account everything existing. Even lower to take into account everything that is going to be created in the future. Wow how can you decide ?

But the first things have been valued arbitrarily in Bitcoins. Now the market can only discover over and over that the remaining bitcoins cannot cover all what is not yet valued. Each time something is valued in bitcoins, it necessitates to divide the remaining bitcoins to make room for it.

The result is an automatic and unavoidable increase of the value of the previous bitcoins created, only because they were first, and not on sound basis.

Kneehighs, Shyheels is right, this is a Maddof scheme.

[kneehighs]

 

39 minutes ago, Gudulitooo said:

 

I see it now. This is ridiculously simple.

Suppose everybody on the planet adopts Bitcoin, then everything on earth that had a price or a value will have to be among the 21 millions a way or another.

It should have been shared from the beginning. Eg. one square kilometers of land is worth one (I don't know)th of the earth total valuable land, thus is it worth one (same fraction)th of 21 million Bitcoins. Even lower to take into account everything existing. Even lower to take into account everything that is going to be created in the future. Wow how can you decide ?

But the first things have been valued arbitrarily in Bitcoins. Now the market can only discover over and over that the remaining bitcoins cannot cover all what is not yet valued. Each time something is valued in bitcoins, it necessitates to divide the remaining bitcoins to make room for it.

The result is an automatic and unavoidable increase of the value of the previous bitcoins created, only because they were first, and not on sound basis.

Kneehighs, Shyheels is right, this is a Maddof scheme.

You have a right to your opinion.  To clarify, this is NOT a fraudulent ponzi scheme:

• Bitcoin is decentralized.  Ponzi schemes are a centralized operation through one control group.
• Bitcoin will never be shut down.  A ponzi can be shut down by the control group instantly.
• Bitcoins distribution and supply is handled by open source code.  Ponzi schemes are secretive and rely on bringing in new participants.
• The Blockchain allows for complete transparency.  Just hop an a bitcoin explorer to trace transactions.  Try that with a Madoff scheme.
• Bitcoin doesn't promise revenue via dividends.  Ponzi's do.
• The growth of blockchain is due to demand from the market. It's so large, it's got a regulated point of entry for institutional money now.  The growth of a Ponzi is based on fraudulent promises of dividends.

Legally regulated institutional money is now pouring into Bitcoin via CBOE, CME, and NASDAQ futures.  Some institutions will apply the Cash and Carry Arbitrage strategy in trading futures too.  

Edited December 7, 2017 by kneehighs

[kneehighs]

Australia’s largest Stock Exchange will start using Blockchain:

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/world-first-blockchain-will-power-australias-biggest-stock-exchange/amp/

[meganiwish]

It just comes down to the fact that any share of nothing is nothing.  Let the fools buy their shares of nothing.

[Shyheels]

If the Blockchain is so transparent, why is Bitcoin the preferred means of exchange by criminals, drug dealers, tax evaders and rogue nations looking to avoid sanctions?

Bitcoin promises jackpot riches - like any pyramid scheme. Whether you call them dividends or profits or just plain old jackpots is immaterial. 

It's growth is fuelled by rampant, runaway speculation on implied promises that the sky is the limit 

It most certainly can be shut down.  Indeed, if governments decide to crack down and/or regulate that would likely trigger a big sell-off as people looked to cash in, and ''investors' - most of whom are mom-and-pop investors, the classic victims in these things - would learn to their dismay exactly what their  share of computer 'mined' wealth is really worth.

 

 

 

[Heelster]

Well - - This doesn't sound positive

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/hackers-steal-70-million-in-bitcoin-prompt-shutdown-of-cryptominer-nicehash-2017-12-07?siteid=

 

[Gudulitooo]

14 hours ago, kneehighs said:

 

You have a right to your opinion.  To clarify, this is NOT a fraudulent ponzi scheme:

• Bitcoin is decentralized.  Ponzi schemes are a centralized operation through one control group.
• Bitcoin will never be shut down.  A ponzi can be shut down by the control group instantly.
• Bitcoins distribution and supply is handled by open source code.  Ponzi schemes are secretive and rely on bringing in new participants.
• The Blockchain allows for complete transparency.  Just hop an a bitcoin explorer to trace transactions.  Try that with a Madoff scheme.
• Bitcoin doesn't promise revenue via dividends.  Ponzi's do.
• The growth of blockchain is due to demand from the market. It's so large, it's got a regulated point of entry for institutional money now.  The growth of a Ponzi is based on fraudulent promises of dividends.

Legally regulated institutional money is now pouring into Bitcoin via CBOE, CME, and NASDAQ futures.  Some institutions will apply the Cash and Carry Arbitrage strategy in trading futures too.  

Absolutely.

It is not a Maddof scheme by the exact definition of the Ponzi scheme. It is a Maddof scheme by its massively devastating and deceiving effects on the economy.

In short, Bitcoin aims at redistributing the cards between the rich and the poors. The ones converting first their values in bitcoins will become the new riches in a bitcoin world. The ones converting their values late will become the new poors. Conquest with the use of hacking weapons is possible.

A bit like when civilisations got land. The ones controlling first valuable land (e.g containing oil wells or gems or arable land) became rich. Conquest was possible with the use of better weapons (e.g. the US).

Note that I have nothing against a redistribution of the cards per se.

 

Edited December 8, 2017 by Gudulitooo

[kneehighs]

15 hours ago, meganiwish said:

It just comes down to the fact that any share of nothing is nothing.  Let the fools buy their shares of nothing.

Let the fools overlook the last 8 years of history in a increasingly disrputive technological world.  Mt. Gox, Silk Road, NY State Licensing controversy.  Crypto survived all that with massive gains.

13 hours ago, Shyheels said:

If the Blockchain is so transparent, why is Bitcoin the preferred means of exchange by criminals, drug dealers, tax evaders and rogue nations looking to avoid sanctions?

Bitcoin promises jackpot riches - like any pyramid scheme. Whether you call them dividends or profits or just plain old jackpots is immaterial. 

It's growth is fuelled by rampant, runaway speculation on implied promises that the sky is the limit 

It most certainly can be shut down.  Indeed, if governments decide to crack down and/or regulate that would likely trigger a big sell-off as people looked to cash in, and ''investors' - most of whom are mom-and-pop investors, the classic victims in these things - would learn to their dismay exactly what their  share of computer 'mined' wealth is really worth.

 

 

 

Same boring talking points over and over again.  It's not.  Monero is.  Criminals would find a way to be criminals with fiat money if crypto didn't exist. It's not the tool that is bad.  It's the user's actions.  Agreed, bitcoin is speculative and volatile.  Bitcoin most certainly can not be shut down.  That would require shutting down the global internet.

6 hours ago, Heelster said:

Well - - This doesn't sound positive

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/hackers-steal-70-million-in-bitcoin-prompt-shutdown-of-cryptominer-nicehash-2017-12-07?siteid=

 

To their credit, the CEO and his teammate did a live Facebook video.  Their problem was they didn't put their BTC into cold storage.  They left them online. 

4 hours ago, Gudulitooo said:

Absolutely.

It is not a Maddof scheme by the exact definition of the Ponzi scheme. It is a Maddof scheme by its massively devastating and deceiving effects on the economy.

In short, Bitcoin aims at redistributing the cards between the rich and the poors. The ones converting first their values in bitcoins will become the new riches in a bitcoin world. The ones converting their values late will become the new poors. Conquest with the use of hacking weapons is possible.

A bit like when civilisations got land. The ones controlling first valuable land (e.g containing oil wells or gems or arable land) became rich. Conquest was possible with the use of better weapons (e.g. the US).

Note that I have nothing against a redistribution of the cards per se.

 

That's one way of looking at it. 

[Shyheels]

The talking points may seem tiresome to one who is a fan of crypto currencies such as Bitcoin, but they are valid criticisms. Sure criminals can use fiat currency in their schemes and peekaboo financing, but why bother when crypto makes things so much easier? And given that these currencies are clearly popular with the twilight world, hearing someone laud crypto currencies for their utter transparency falls a little flat. 

Any currency - or so called currency - capable of leaping 30% up or down in a single day is not really useful for transactions. It is a purely speculative play and certainly at this point in time hugely overheated and with no obvious underlying value.

It mightn’t be able to be shut down, like Facebook could potentially be shut down, but regulation could change the parameters drastically prompt a massive sell-off, burn millions in a huge wake up call, and effectively end it. 

[Gudulitooo]

4 hours ago, kneehighs said:

That's one way of looking at it. 

This is only the beginning of the scheme.
There are one side effect and one viscious effect.
1) within the ever deflating bitcoin world, people stop producing. Why would you farm land, build houses, innovate now while the grain, materials and engineering is cheaper next year ?
2) those who are not satisfied by the cards they got at Bitcoin can create a new BitcoinLike currency,  in which they are rich because first. This is like shuffling the cards and redistributing them once again, with people willing to convert their assests in this more promising new currency. (as you did Kneehighs if I remember well)
3) the process can be restarted over and over with unlimited variations. in the end humankind is spending it's efforts shuffling the cards, instead of producing life sustaining goods. And finally we never play this card game, which is named life. If humankind doesn't play, it disappears.
The scheme is worst than Ponzi.
 

Edited December 8, 2017 by Gudulitooo

[meganiwish]

Douglas Adams in 'Restaurant at the End of the Universe':  'Well, since we adopted the leaf as legal tender we have all become immensely rich.  Of course, inflation means that the current exchange rate is one deciduous forest to one ship's biscuit, but we've solved that with a programme of deforestation,'

[Gudulitooo]

Or it is mere entertainment.

[kneehighs]

1 hour ago, Gudulitooo said:

Or it is mere entertainment.

Speaking of entertainment.  Starting tomorrow, things will get really interesting when CBOE starts bitcoin Futures trading.  My current 5 take aways.

1. Manipulation will occur towards the expiration of futures contracts, not when the futures first get issued.
2. Volume on bitcoin will increase
3. CME/CBOE isn't focused on layering derivatives on top of derivatives.  The purpose of CMOE is originally to protect risk of producers of underlying's like pork bellies, wheat, corn etc.
4. bitcoin miners will benefit from futures
5. I will  guardedly watch my holdings 100%

Edited December 9, 2017 by kneehighs

[Shyheels]

I've no doubt fortunes will be made by a few

[Heelster]

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/12/10/north-korea-is-hacking-bitcoin-exchanges-as-currency-value-soars-expert-says.html

This kinda crap isn't going to help - - - - 

[Shyheels]

Can’t blame them. It serves their purposes wonderfully

[Gudulitooo]

On 09/12/2017 at 10:31 PM, kneehighs said:

Speaking of entertainment.  Starting tomorrow, things will get really interesting when CBOE starts bitcoin Futures trading.  My current 5 take aways.

Well you could argue entertainment totally completes food and houses for sustaining human life.

Also it is possible that my starting hypothesis ("everybody on the planet adopts Bitcoin") is proved wrong.

Instead of creating more than 21 million Bitcoins, they create another currency that increases the volume of money. And another. And another. Until all the assets are covered.

Did you try to get dollars back from Bitcoins ?

[kneehighs]

1 hour ago, Gudulitooo said:

Well you could argue entertainment totally completes food and houses for sustaining human life.

Also it is possible that my starting hypothesis ("everybody on the planet adopts Bitcoin") is proved wrong.

Instead of creating more than 21 million Bitcoins, they create another currency that increases the volume of money. And another. And another. Until all the assets are covered.

Did you try to get dollars back from Bitcoins ?

I don't think everyone on the planet will adopt Bitcoin, but it's an entertaining thought.  More Alternative Currencies are being released everyday.  These are called "Alt Coins" or by professionals "siht* coins".  Many new ecosystems will be created around various cryptocurrencies in the coming years.  Yes, I converted my crypto to fiat for shoes, lol.