Is this board homophobic?

[Fog]

I started answering this point - and realised that I was going off topic very quickly - but also it's something I've thought a long time.

If someone outiside our group were to see a man in obvious women's shoes, the most common non-positive thought would be the person is bisexual or gay. Not "oh no, a serial killer, run!".

Scotty

Why do you think being gay is a non-positive thought? I'm really concerned about how keen everyone is to say they're not gay. It's bordering on homophobia. When I was considering going to my first heelmeet the organisers stressed to me that everyone who went were a nice bunch of straight guys. I can't really see what the worry is in this day and age.

Scotty, please don't think I'm having a go at you I could have picked up numerous comments over the past few days, weeks, months - I just want to air this topic a little bit and see what other guys think. As far as I'm concerned, I have had people think I'm gay and it can be quite fun watching them trying to make their minds up.

[Ozzard]

Me? I'm human. I regard that as positive :-).

[sscotty727]

I started answering this point - and realised that I was going off topic very quickly - but also it's something I've thought a long time.

Why do you think being gay is a non-positive thought? I'm really concerned about how keen everyone is to say they're not gay. It's bordering on homophobia. When I was considering going to my first heelmeet the organisers stressed to me that everyone who went were a nice bunch of straight guys. I can't really see what the worry is in this day and age.

Scotty, please don't think I'm having a go at you I could have picked up numerous comments over the past few days, weeks, months - I just want to air this topic a little bit and see what other guys think. As far as I'm concerned, I have had people think I'm gay and it can be quite fun watching them trying to make their minds up.

I meant it only that the ONLY non "hey, nice shoes, great fashion" someone seeing guys in heels would be "He must be gay". If you aren't gay then that would be a negative comment (or thought) because it would be an incorrect perception. I didn't mean it as being gay is negative, I harbor no ill feelings against someone gay or bi. I just meant it would be the more common misperception about seeing someone in heels.

[Ozzard]

Being based in Manchester, I have the Canal Street area (colloquially the 'gay village', but actually an oasis for the unconventional of all persuasions, plus loads of folks along for the pleasure of a safe night out). Straight, gay, lesbian, bi, no idea... casual, smart, drag, cross-dressed, men in skirts, men in heels, women in suits... who cares? You'll get the odd disparaging comment, but more compliments. Long may it last, and may the tolerance spread to other parts of Manchester and to other cities.

[Fog]

Perhaps in Britain we see it differently. I'd have thought the first reaction to a man in heels would be not "he must be gay" but "he must have mental health problems" There's a stubbly bloke who rides a bike up and down Victoria Street wearing tights and fairly low heels along with items like a short silver skirt. I realise I've just said in another post I'd never seen a man in heels, I forgot about him.

[sscotty727]

Perhaps in Britain we see it differently. I'd have thought the first reaction to a man in heels would be not "he must be gay" but "he must have mental health problems" There's a stubbly bloke who rides a bike up and down Victoria Street wearing tights and fairly low heels along with items like a short silver skirt.

I realise I've just said in another post I'd never seen a man in heels, I forgot about him.

First two questions out of my wifes (gf at the time) mouth when I told her about wanting to wear heels were:

1) Are you sure your not gay/bi?

2) Do you want to become a woman?

[Ozzard]

First two questions out of my wifes (gf at the time) mouth when I told her about wanting to wear heels were:

1) Are you sure your not gay/bi?

2) Do you want to become a woman?

(Chuckle). In our case, #2 came out first, #1 wasn't raised.

[Fog]

(Chuckle). In our case, #2 came out first, #1 wasn't raised.

For us it was "How far do you want to take this?" "Do you want to wear a skirt?" and "Do you think what started as a bit of fun is going a bit too far"

Not being macho is a completely different thing to being gay.

[Guy N. Heels]

I started answering this point - and realised that I was going off topic very quickly - but also it's something I've thought a long time.

Why do you think being gay is a non-positive thought? I'm really concerned about how keen everyone is to say they're not gay. It's bordering on homophobia. When I was considering going to my first heelmeet the organisers stressed to me that everyone who went were a nice bunch of straight guys. I can't really see what the worry is in this day and age.

Scotty, please don't think I'm having a go at you I could have picked up numerous comments over the past few days, weeks, months - I just want to air this topic a little bit and see what other guys think. As far as I'm concerned, I have had people think I'm gay and it can be quite fun watching them trying to make their minds up.

Interestingly enough, I've just checked 2 of my dictionaries and have been unable to find homophobic in either one. Is this a word that has recently been coined by the rabbid homosexual community?

From what I've seen on this board so far, I find no compelling evidence that this board harbors anti-gay prejudice. Nevertheless, as recently as 30 years ago homosexuality was condemned by almost every society and anyone who was thought to be homosexual in any way almost instantly became a pariah. I believe that this stigma still exists until this day.

However, I believe that there is a distinct difference between people who are seeking to address fashion issues and those who prefer a distinctly different sexual orientation. In my personal experience, every sort of homosexual solicitation or encounter I've had came from men who dressed so ordinarily that I would never have given them a second look. Indeed, it was only after they had solicited me that I had any idea of their sexual preferance. Moreover, I do not suppose for even an instant that these same things are not also true for women. So I find this to be a rather strange set of circumstances: i.e. men whom I have met dressed in drag, high heels, earrings, etc. never solicit me while men who look exactly like the people I work with sometimes do. I have also heard women make similar comments about being approached, including my girlfriend and my own mother! A curious set of circumstances.

To my mind, the style of clothing one chooses to wear may suggest certain things, but is not necessarily an indicator of their sexual orientation. In short, just because one puts on an airline pilot's uniform doesn't make him one any more than my going to a library makes me a book or going to a hospital makes me a doctor.

For the record, I wear high heels and skirts; my ears have been pierced for many years; and I have even worn makeup, wigs, and dresses in public. Yet I am totally revolted by homosexual advances or solicitations.

[sscotty727]

The vast majority of men wearing heels are straight, with a few exceptions (we have a few members here who are gay and enjoy wearing heels). I know this, you know this, almost everyone on this board knows this. But to the vast majority of society (atleast in the USA), a man exhibiting any female trait (from manerisms, emotions, to clothing/heels) indicates homosexuality. In fairness, if you walked into a bar and saw a woman with short hair wearing a flannel shirt, jeans, and hiker boots, alot of people would think she was a lesbian. It is sterotypical and judgemental without getting to know the person, but society as a whole tends to do this. As I said, I have no problem with anyone, straight, gay, bi. Nor do I care what others think of me, I am straight, happily married with kids. What I meant by my comments is that if I walked into a local store for example wearing pumps that were visable, most people there would think I was gay, not that I was a mass murder killing women for their heels. Now if I had a large collection of various sized heels hidden under my bed....that would be a different story. Scotty

[Shafted]

Oh, how do I approach this issue, with honesty and no less. My religion is definitely against homosexual behavior, but at the same time preaches tolorance, something many catholics forget. I fully stand on the catholic church's teachings. I will love everyone as a brother or sister and will not judge them, for I myself am not without sin. Nothing is ever accomplished by anger or hatred. Although I am adimantly against homosexuality and believe it to be wrong, I have come to the point in my life to love everyone, even my most dispicable enemy. I will always consider those here, no matter what, my friend. Please don't flame me for this.

[Fog]

Interestingly enough, I've just checked 2 of my dictionaries and have been unable to find homophobic in either one. Is this a word that has recently been coined by the rabbid homosexual community?

From what I've seen on this board so far, I find no compelling evidence that this board harbors anti-gay prejudice. Nevertheless, as recently as 30 years ago homosexuality was condemned by almost every society and anyone who was thought to be homosexual in any way almost instantly became a pariah. I believe that this stigma still exists until this day.

Thanks for your answer. It's interesting to hear every one's views on this.

[shrimper]

This board is not homophobic though some of the members may be. I like to wear women's shoes. Who am I to judge someone else's "normality"?

[Skirted-UK]

(Chuckle). In our case, #2 came out first, #1 wasn't raised.

This is what my wife said when she found out. Its the way the female mind works, they can't understand the excitment and fun that men get wearing women's clothes. But if you question their sexuality because they were trousers all the time they get very upset.

[Danielinheels]

I'm not homophobic at all. It's merely a matter of perception - I don't want people to think "Hey, he's wearing shoes that are for women, he must be gay." The shorter of those clauses could be left unsaid, and likely would be if I were wearing boring men's shoes. If I wear a collared knit shirt, nice jeans that aren't all ripped up or whatever, and say (oh hell) Birks, nothing is assumed about my sexuality. Switch the Birks with Mary Janes and the chance stands that I'm homosexual. If I'm in Payless pretend-looking at size 13/14 men's shoes, nothing assumed. If I step over to the size 13 women's shoes and try a pair on, then I might be gay. It's merely erroneous thinking by other goons that I have to share a planet with, and nobody wants to be incorrectly assumed to be anything they aren't.

[Firefox]

The only reason I have told people I am straight on/before heel meets is that 90% of the other people who come are straight and there is a misconception by some people that guys who wear heels are likely to be gay. Not that I care either way but I wanted people to know we have a few beers and walk around town. It is not a kind of dating shop unless of course two gay guys turn up and they are welcome to get together if they want. I figure I can assure 90% of the people and perhaps upset 10% of 10% (ie 1 person out of 100) because I was not politically correct enough by mentioning that I was straight and it is 90% straight guys who come, then I would be the right side of the odds because 99/100 would at least appreciate me being honest about what we were doing. I'm very sorry for the one person in 100 I have not been politcally correct enough for in this case. You're still VERY welcome to come along if you have been put off and meet some people of varying sexuality, but mostly straight people. I can't get more honest than that I'm afraid.

[Guy N. Heels]

The only reason I have told people I am straight on/before heel meets is that 90% of the other people who come are straight and there is a misconception by some people that guys who wear heels are likely to be gay. Not that I care either way but I wanted people to know we have a few beers and walk around town. It is not a kind of dating shop unless of course two gay guys turn up and they are welcome to get together if they want. I figure I can assure 90% of the people and perhaps upset 10% of 10% (ie 1 person out of 100) because I was not politically correct enough by mentioning that I was straight and it is 90% straight guys who come, then I would be the right side of the odds because 99/100 would at least appreciate me being honest about what we were doing.

I'm very sorry for the one person in 100 I have not been politcally correct enough for in this case. You're still VERY welcome to come along if you have been put off and meet some people of varying sexuality, but mostly straight people. I can't get more honest than that I'm afraid.

So what's with all the apologies? At least we don't brand 'em or tar & feather 'em like they used to do in days gone by.

[Fog]

So what's with all the apologies? At least we don't brand 'em or tar & feather 'em like they used to do in days gone by.

Jolly good thing too!

[Fog]

I meant it only that the ONLY non "hey, nice shoes, great fashion" someone seeing guys in heels would be "He must be gay". If you aren't gay then that would be a negative comment (or thought) because it would be an incorrect perception. I didn't mean it as being gay is negative, I harbor no ill feelings against someone gay or bi. I just meant it would be the more common misperception about seeing someone in heels.

Sscotty: -

Please accept my apology. I didn't read your reply properly. Re-reading it, I understand the context you used the phrase non-positive. I'm sorry. Also, I took my own standpoint into account too much, and failed to get into the mindset of others, therefore some of what I've written above is wrong. Recently I was looking for somewhere to rent a room, nearer to work (the cheaper the better) and found myself in an area of London, that was certainly diverse ethincally. Two pubs were boarded up, but there was plenty of signs of religion, about ten churches, mainly small independent/fundamentalist/charismatic outfits, and plenty of choice of hallal meat. I didn't take the room, I knew that I wouldn't be able to step out of the door in heels without getting into big trouble. So that experience only a couple of weeks ago makes a nonsense of what I was saying. I just didn't think about what I was feeling too much.

I'm also sorry to have come over as PC; but if we have a cause as male heel-wearers, it is, in my view, a common cause with anyone who's unfairly treated because of their alternative life style choice.

[dr1819]

Interestingly enough, I've just checked 2 of my dictionaries and have been unable to find homophobic in either one. Is this a word that has recently been coined by the rabbid homosexual community?

Try Merriam Webster

From what I've seen on this board so far, I find no compelling evidence that this board harbors anti-gay prejudice.

Me neither.

I believe that there is a distinct difference between people who are seeking to address fashion issues and those who prefer a distinctly different sexual orientation.

I agree 100%. The two have nothing to do with one another.

For the record, I wear high heels and skirts; my ears have been pierced for many years; and I have even worn makeup, wigs, and dresses in public. Yet I am totally revolted by homosexual advances or solicitations.

Although my ear piercings have healed over due to years of non-use, I still wear skirts, heels, and occasional eye makeup and hair stuff (temp colors). I've been solicited on several occasions. It doesn't turn my stomach, but I've absolutely no inclination in that direction.

I have noticed, however, that all the incidences where I was approached happened when I was wearing either heels or a skirt, and most of the time was when I was wearing eye makeup, so I do think there's a connection.

On the other hand, most of the time I've been solicited by a girl was when I was wearing heels and eye makeup, so there's probably a connection there, too.

I think the connection is that they see someone who's different, standing out from the crowd, not afraid to be themself, and yet who's still obviously masculine. I think they see it as a turn-on.

[Rockpup]

I havnt seen any specific homophobic behaviour on this board, and I usually pick up on it as this is not the only place on the net I go to, nor do I live a sheltered life. Quite a few gays interact with straights on a day to day basis and the straights never pick up on it. I have known some very flamboyant gay guys, and some guys who are very much "manly", one happens to be a drill instructor for Army Rangers, great guy, don't want to piss him off though. I do want to see what happens if he gets called fag. Back on topic, a guy in heels is seen to be flashy, and goes against some of the behavour men push on each other. In the media gays are portrayed as being much flashier dressers then straight guys, such is the show Queer Eye for the Straight Guy. I don't doubt that most people would just assume someone wearing heels is gay, it's a simple explination, and most people would rather not know the complicated truth behind their reality. I'm weaving in out of the lane as far as this topic goes I'm afraid, but to boil it down to the original post, no I don't think this board on a whole is homophobic, and even those here who dislike homosexuality as a concept have acted very civilised to each other. I doubt anyone could ask anymore from people, we don't have to like each other, but it's a small world, so best to try and get along as well as we can.

[dr1819]

Most of the gays I knew, both men and women, looked, acted, dressed, talked, and lived the same as everyone else.

[sscotty727]

Most of the gays I knew, both men and women, looked, acted, dressed, talked, and lived the same as everyone else.

When I first got out of college and moved to the DC area, I got a part time job a couple of evenings/weekends creating ads for a street sign (brothers designed and sold it, they knew the women, who happened to be gay too, and gave me extra $$$ under the table).

Anyway, I worked with another guy who after a while admitted he was gay. Being open minded I said it was no problem. However, when we turned the TV on (it was incredibly boring in there) moonlighting was on (old Bruce Willis TV show for those who don't know). While watching it he kept making comments on how cute Bruce was and what he wanted to do to him. I guess that was a bit much for me and I confessed I couldn't handle it.

That was when I was 22, I would hope over 20 years later I would have progressed in my opening mindedness, however I don't know how I would respond to OPEN gay actions in front of me (I am not talking sexual relations, I am talking hand holding, kissing, etc).

I have zero problems with anyone who is gay and I would not descriminate against them or treat them different. However open displays of affection I don't know if I could handle.....then again, I am not a major fan of open displays of affection in public with heterosexual couples either. Some things are best left behind closed doors.

[Fog]

People make mistakes. Gay men sometimes get it wrong and chat up the wrong guy - it's a mistake. Hetty men get it wrong sometimes and chat up women who aren't interested, again a mistake. Men are not as good at body language as women - at least the ones who don't get anywhere - because they can't read the come on's and the back off's. It becomes a problem - equally for men and women - when a simple no isn't taken as the answer. I question what's wrong with public displays of affection. Mrs. F has every right to greet me with a hug and a kiss in a public place, if I were gay surely Mr. F would have the same right. I will settle for no less. Why should the supposed Mr. F have less right to express his affection towards me than Mrs. F? I said to myself I'd leave this topic alone. I will try not to come back to it.

[sscotty727]

First of all, nothing wrong with open dialog. As long as no one is calling each other name or getting hostile, I see nothing wrong with it, so please don't feel the need that you have to avoid the topic. As far as public displays of affection, I guess seeing two people hold hands or a quick kiss isn't a bad thing (atleats for me). Of course seeing a couple making out in public isn't right and should be left to behind closed doors. I will also admit it would bother me if I saw two guys hold hands or kiss in public. Is it fair? No. But something inside would cringe and turn away. Just being honest. As I said, no it isn't fair. Perhaps just as some say homosexuality is programmed deep into the person (I know, some others will say it's not programmed, but a deviation, for sake of argument, let's say it is programmed), perhaps it is also programmed into a heterosexual to see homosexual displays of affection as a turn off. (BTW, just out of curiosity, do homosexuals cringe when they see men/women kissing, etc? Just wondering if the opposite reaction happens as well). Again, this isn't to say one is more right or wrong nor say one group has the right to public display's and the other doesn't. Not sure that makes me homophobic, as I said, I would never discriminate against a person because they were gay. Their personal life is their business, not mine to judge.

[Ozzard]

*blink* Does it matter what sexual preference someone has? It's odd - I get that reaction whenever someone asks around this area. For me, it's simply a non-question - like hair / eye / skin colour, sex or gender. I know blondes, folks with mouse-brown hair, those with blue and brown eyes, those with various shades of pink, yellow and brown in their skin, men, women, straights, gays, bis, asexuals, dressers, non-dressers, cross-dressers, transsexuals... and it's great to see the variety.

[dr1819]

Wow, Scotty - lots of interesting commentary in there. I feel pretty much the same reaction. Here in Germany I've seen a lot more public display of affection between two women than I ever saw in the US, even though I've had neighbors who were lesbians for a total of 4 hours (two different sets of neighbors), knew their friends, were invited to their cookouts, etc. I've had less experience with guys who were gay, but did have a roommate in college for a year who was gay (didn't know he was gay until after I'd signed the lease). Interesting learning curve for myself and the other two straight roommates. Personally, when I've seen women going at it with other women, it's a lot less of a shock than when I've men going at it with other men. I think that's because I'm attracted to women, and not to men. So, when I see myself viewing something I'm not attracted to, I'm averse to that. This is a normal human reaction. A lot of it has to do with conditioning, but a lot also has to do with intrinsically-held values. You can't shag one without influencing the other.

[sscotty727]

Thanks DR. I guess the main point I was trying to get across is, you don't have to agree or like something to be accepting and tolerant of it. Take for example our online community. Not everyone likes the same shoes/boots/heels, yet we should all be accepting of each others choices. Same goes for what we want out of the general public. Not necessarily everyone to like men wearing heels, but acceptance and tolerance.

[Guy N. Heels]

First of all, nothing wrong with open dialog. As long as no one is calling each other name or getting hostile, I see nothing wrong with it, so please don't feel the need that you have to avoid the topic.

As far as public displays of affection, I guess seeing two people hold hands or a quick kiss isn't a bad thing (atleats for me). Of course seeing a couple making out in public isn't right and should be left to behind closed doors.

I will also admit it would bother me if I saw two guys hold hands or kiss in public. Is it fair? No. But something inside would cringe and turn away...

Their personal life is their business, not mine to judge.

I think we have a misapplication of terms here. I can think of no time when America witnessed more public displays of affection between all sexes and races than on 9/11/01. People were simply doing their best to help one another and express both concern and affection. In like manner, I would have no problem seeing two men hug or even kiss after a major airline crash, earthquake, firefight, etc. That is simply one human being reaching out to another to say,"I'm here and you are important to me."

The problem, as I see it, arises when two people of the same sex publicly express intimacy in a way that is normally reserved for a romantic or sexual setting. I think that most heterosexuals would find such an act offensive.

[Rockpup]

People tend to stare when they see an exotic sports car drive by since it's something they don't expect to see in everyday life. Same goes for seeing two guys who are being affectionate. Estimates I've seen say 10% of people are either gay/bi, and lets say only 10% of those are willing to be affectionate in public, so that leaves 0.5% of couples (only 1/2 of 1% would be men) who are affectionate in public. Not sure why, but gay guys tend to pick specific areas (san fransisco, key west, etc) to live in higher percentages. lets say that leaves us with 0.25% of couples being two guys willing to kiss/etc in public. If you saw 400 couples kissing/etc in one day, one of em would be a pair of gay guys. Why does it seem odd when two guys are kissing? It's is. *shrug* Don't consider yourself homophobic if you've gotten uncomfortable when a gay friend gets too descriptive with what he'd like to do with a guy he see's.. Trust me, I don't want to hear what most straight guys want to do with women they see. That to me is much like someone else thats straight explaning a personal fetish that's not shared by the other person. It's not a bit of sexuality your comfortable with, and while you may not care that they are into it, you don't want the details. just a thought.