Wiki

[dr1819]

I posted a great article on Wiki detailing MUGs. It drew heavy fire. I called on those from HH Meeting Place to post something, anything, to help the article remain alive. Nothing. Not a damn thing from any of you. What would it have cost you? A minute or two of your time? Yeah, this is a rant, and I'm thoroughly disgusted with the lot of you right now.

[dr1819]

I posted a great article on Wiki detailing MUGs. It drew heavy fire. I called on those from HH Meeting Place to post something, anything, to help the article remain alive.

Nothing.

And to my stark raving suprise, not a damn thing from any of you, despite my pleasant request.

What would it have cost you? A minute or two of your time?

Yeah, this is a rant, and I'm thoroughly disgusted with the lot of you right now.

Give me a few days and I'm sure I'll cool down. In the meantime, if you at all value your fashion rights, you'll home in on my Wiki article and support it against deletion by the fashion police, which are apparently alive and well online!

Do us all a big, long-term favor and make a difference. Two minutes - just please do it.

Here's the link, and you can post anonymously: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Male_Unbifurcated_Garment

Just click "edit this page" and add your own two cents. Make 'em count!

[TXT-1]

not to sound closed minded, but: since I don't wear a MUG, I don't see the point... it's like me posting something about a Datsun 120Y/B210 (B-210) or Sunny/210 (B310) at fashion spot not stopping other from posting MUG info though! later, TXT-1

[Shafted]

To be perfectly honest, I spent 15 minutes trying to figure out how to do this to no avail. And the edit help feature wasn't much good for anything in my book. As I am not a skirt wearer myself I considered it 15 wasted minutes. In addition why should we give a rats patoot about what the rest of the world thinks. It hasn't stopped us yet has it?

[Danielinheels]

today is mother's day, probably a lot of members here were treating mom to a day on the town or something. good mission, bad timing. sorry (I'm trying to find out how to post on it as I write this)

[Dawn HH]

I'm having the same problems that Shafted is having on getting through. Cheers--- Dawn HH

[chris100575]

What the hell is a MUG, and where did you ask us to help? I'm on here pretty regularly and don't remember seeing such a plea. So I guess you're disgusted with me because I didn't see it the first time? Way to solicit help there. Chris

[dr1819]

Well, first of all, I'd like to apologize. I consider HighHeel meeting place my home, and it's a bit embarrassing to come home after ranting and raving as I did over the last couple of days. I'm grateful the admnistrators here are as understanding as they are. In the meantime, my thanks to those of you who took the time to take up the fight with the uneducated masses. Your responses were noted and have contributed towards the article becoming mainstream. We're by no means out of the woods, yet, and any additional posts would be of tremendous significant, since we're only approximately 8 against and 3 for, so, yes - your inputs have immediate and significant results. Thanks, all, and I'll continue the report in another post.

[chris100575]

Your apology is appreciated Dr1819, I did find your post about the article after I posted above. I tend to start at the top of the forum list and work down, so I got here first. I now know that a MUG isn't just what I drink my tea out of! Chris

[dr1819]

Hi, and thanks, Chris. Sadly, the Wikipedia article formerly known as "Male Unbifurcated Garment" is dead.

Or perhaps just "nearly dead," as Monty Python would say, as it's deletion is under review.

If just twenty readers here were to post on Wiki, it'd be revived: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Male_Unbifurcated_Garment

If you think you're not one of the twenty, it'll wind up being two and the article will die.

Your choice, folks, so make it a good one.

[micha]

Hi, and thanks, Chris. Sadly, the Wikipedia article formerly known as "Male Unbifurcated Garment" is dead.

Or perhaps just "nearly dead," as Monty Python would say, as it's deletion is under review.

If just twenty readers here were to post on Wiki, it'd be revived: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Male_Unbifurcated_Garment

If you think you're not one of the twenty, it'll wind up being two and the article will die.

Your choice, folks, so make it a good one.

Hi dr1819

in my opinion writing a contribution in wikipedia isn't a question of two minutes but more a question of two monthes. It doesn't matter if the subject are skirts or heels wearing men. An encyclopedia is definitely NOT a discussion board on male heels. As much as I like guys on heels - I'm insisting on the wikipedia rules!

Falls Du nicht nur aus Europa kommen solltest, sondern tatsächlich aus Dortmund, dann beschäftige dich doch mal mit dem deutschen Wikipedia-Forum. Das ist fast noch Neuland

nice greetings

micha

[Guy N. Heels]

[Dawn HH]

?????????? Cheers--- Dawn HH

[dr1819]

In my opinion writing a contribution in wikipedia isn't a question of two minutes but more a question of two monthes. It doesn't matter if the subject are skirts or heels wearing men. An encyclopedia is definitely NOT a discussion board on male heels. As much as I like guys on heels - I'm insisting on the wikipedia rules!

micha

Thanks, Micha. Fortunately, two out of the three Wiki articles I penned two months ago on non-traditional fashion choices have survived.

Cheers!

[dr1819]

Sadly, the Men's Fashion Freedom article I created for Wiki is on the chopping block, as well. Without anyone posting comments supporting keeping it, it'll go the way of my MUGs article.

[dr1819]

I respectfully request all who are interested in balancing the negative opinions of a handful of rogue admins to visit my RFC page on Wiki.

Please post in the Outside View section, and sign it by using four tildes: ~~~~

The most abusive admin continues to claim that there is no such term as "MUG," short for Male Unbifurcated Garments, or that at the very least, it's a term used only by a very small group of people, or just those associated with just one website.

Thank you for helping to advance the cause against fashion myopia.

[dr1819]

Yo. No one can do Wiki (which I'd be happy to explain) or no one really bievles in how much of an effect their fashion freedom forums actually have on men.

[Fog]

.....In addition why should we give a rats patoot about what the rest of the world thinks. It hasn't stopped us yet has it?

That's the soundest thing I've heard all day.

....or no one really bievles in how much of an effect their fashion freedom forums actually have on men.

I don't - I don't know anyone who'd admit to looking at a fashion forum. Am I out of touch?

[kneehighs]

...I don't - I don't know anyone who'd admit to looking at a fashion forum. Am I out of touch?

Ahem, you don't know me? I know, I know, you probably meant people you interact with on a face-to-face and regular basis.

[chris100575]

Dr1819: Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not attacking you, just explaining my lack of involvement in the Wiki debate. I doubt that a Wikipedia article on men wearing clothing traditionally associated with women is going to raise awareness. People are only likely to look it up if they're already interested. Also predjudice tends to come from closed-minded ignorant people, ie they're not likely to be great readers, and even if they read it they won't change their minds. As for the term MUG, I'd never heard it before you brought it up. So there's you saying that it's in common usage, and a whole bunch of other people saying that they've never heard of it. While I applaud you for standing up for what you believe in, I don't think that Wikipedia was intended to be used as a soapbox. Chris

[Fog]

Ahem, you don't know me? I know, I know, you probably meant people you interact with on a face-to-face and regular basis.

I know you my friend, and you're one in a million!

[dr1819]

Dr1819: Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not attacking you, just explaining my lack of involvement in the Wiki debate.

I doubt that a Wikipedia article on men wearing clothing traditionally associated with women is going to raise awareness. People are only likely to look it up if they're already interested.

While I see your point, I would have to ask, "What's the purpose of HHMP?" Many of our members have been vastly relieved to know that there are others of us out there, and many have begun heeling outside the confines of their four walls because of what they've read here. Wiki has a much larger audience than HHMP.

Another thread detailed how often the concept of men wearing heels is Googled - apparently quite a bit - so Wiki article detailing alternative fashions is an excellent way to get the word out, broaden acceptance, which would also be a big hint to manufacturers to provide a greater variety of larger sizes, and perhaps some more masculine styles (which I would prefer) in heels.

Also predjudice tends to come from closed-minded ignorant people, ie they're not likely to be great readers, and even if they read it they won't change their minds.

For some, no. For others, yes. The point is that for the others, it would be yes, rather than them remaining in the dark.

As for the term MUG, I'd never heard it before you brought it up. So there's you saying that it's in common usage, and a whole bunch of other people saying that they've never heard of it.

Not me. Ton's of other people:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22male+unbifurcated+garment%22

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22MUG%22+and+%22skirt%22+and+%22kilt%22

While I applaud you for standing up for what you believe in, I don't think that Wikipedia was intended to be used as a soapbox.

It wasn't. But it was intended to be used as an online encyclopedia that anyone can edit. It's a place to create articles that are relevant, even if they're relevant to a tiny percentage of the Wiki population. If the subject is real (men wearing heels is real, or we wouldn't be here), if it's relevant to at least some Wiki members (various comments on my pages indicate some support, so they're out there), and if it's document by credible sources (several newspaper articles, including those with shots of runway models and a celebrity or two wearing heels), then it's deserving, by Wiki's rules, of a space on Wiki.

My point is that despite it's reality, relevancy, and valid sources, the same fashion police that would love to pass an ordinance prohibiting men from wearing heels > 1", are fighting against it, using the most insane and illogical arguements.

The problem is that no one is bothering to counter them.

That's the funny thing about rights - if you don't defend them, they will be slowly taken away from you.

All I'd asked for was for a few people to follow the links and post their support. How many folks do we have here who're interested in supporting our right to wear heels? Tons.

How many actually posted their support? Perhaps three.

It's not my fight. It's out fight, whether you realize it or not. Society has, many times, swing back and forth between very permissive, and very controlled. Right now, we're in an increasingly permissive swing, but that began to turn around 9/11 (as these swings usually do in response to events known around the world, like the French Revolution, when we lost public acceptance of men wearing heels in the first place).

It'll happen again, sooner or later, like it always does. Just a matter of time.

Unless you (everyone) does something about it. If you don't, the fashion police, those whose narrow minds think everyone should be THIS way, or THAT way, will convince the powers that be that they're right and will cause laws hiding under terms like "propriety" and "best interest of the public" to pass that contain provisions against men wearing heels or other items of women's clothing unless they've been properly diagnosed as a transvestite or transexual (they'd never actually take away our rights, but they'd make us jump through all kinds of expensive and time-consuming hoops to exercise those rights).

Don't think it can happen?

Think again: http://ccrkba.org/defender.htm

When I first obtained a concealed carry permit in the Northwest, the cost was $27, and it was good for a three-year permit. No gun safety courses were required if you could prove equivalent, and I was in the military with an expert rating, so I qualified. The course was $20 if you didn't qualify.

Cut to just two years later. The money-grubbing lunatics that call themselves the North Carolina General Assembley passed a concealed carry permit shortly after Michael Jordan's father was shot and killed in that neck of the woods. But they established a fixed $100 fee for the course, and made annual attendance mandatory.

Oh - and the fee for the permit was another $100, so that's $200 per year in NC, vs $10 a year (which covered actual costs) in the state where I lived in the NW.

Why was it so expensive? Fortunately, I lived down the street from a state judge. One evening during a neighborhood outing, someone asked the question. The judge, an avid hunter, replied that while he didn't believe in concealed carry, he reported that the assembleymen were swayed by input from police and sherrif departments that claimed there would be a rash of shootings if they didn't raise the barriers to concealed weapon carry. Their motive? They collected the fees, to be used for bettering their departments, and they ran the safety courses!

Two items of note:

1. The per capita violent crime rate in NC was far higher just before concealed carry law was passed than it was in the NW state that had enjoyed concealed carries for decades.

2. The per capita violent crime rate in NC dropped after the law was passed.

Whether it's the fashion police or the real police, the bottom line is that there are people out there who don't want you to wear heels. Unless you toe the line and fight them on this, including Wiki, they'll get their way, or at least make it prohibitively expensive or inconvenient for you to exercise your rights.

That's human nature. It's the way it's always been, it's the way it always will be. Groups who don't band together and defend their rights loose them.

Always.

[dr1819]

Here's another link (and no, I'm not an NRA member!): http://www.eagleforum.org/psr/2000/june00/psrjune2000.html

[dr1819]

I'm not sure who this guy is, but he's been the most staunch advocate to date of the articles I've written, even though he doesn't appear in any fashion forum that I know of.

Please endorse his recommendation, or dr1819 will likely "be disappeared" from Wiki.

You know the restraint I've applied here. I employ the same restraint at Wiki. The only difference is that Wiki is a hostile crowd (when it comes to fashion choices).

Thank you for your understanding and your support.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Dr1819

You can even endorse his comments as a guest. Anything would help, so please help!

Just think what Wiki admins would do if 30 people lodged endorsements... They'd have to rethink their whole system of belief, and it'd be on record! (you can't delete this page).

It's long past time to tell the world "This is ok. It's not wrong."

Please do so today.

Thank you.

- Dave