The Death Penalty

[Bubba136]

Not to add fuel to this fire, but the National Public Radio Network's program "The Connection" recently broadcast a program concerning the death penalty here in the United States. Anyone interested in this issue can listen to this program at: http://www.theconnection.org/shows/2002/05/20020520_a_main.asp

[Scuffy]

I have to agree with Laurie and Firefox here. I do believe that if we really try, society can come up with a program to rehabilitate inmates. But in ether case, we are merely treating the symptom, not the problem. There is not enough peace and compassion in the world. Justice isn’t about revenge or an eye for an eye. Its about what is fair and just. Its about showing a person why what they did hurt others. Its about making them understand and feel what their victim feel. Its about teaching compassion and tolerance. And it is about mercy and forgiveness. There is also a spiritual matter when it comes to the death penalty. Which is why it is wrong. By executing someone, society is in fact committing murder. And that itself carry penalty. What goes around comes around. And we cannot cure the world by killing. Killing only leads to more killing. When you take a life, you are taking your own life. Only love, can heal hate. Some say criminals are a cancer. But in reality, they are symptom of the cancer. The problems are greed, hate, intolerance, lack of communication, and violence. These are embedded in our society. So why drop down to their level? Spread your wings and fly high.

[hoverfly]

Mental illness has such a negative factor here in the U.S. that many never get treated. If people with mental illness commit a crime they still go untreated. If and when they are let out after severing their sentience they could commit more serious crimes that could get them the death penalty. All this could be prevented if we take care of many problems with society before hand.

[Dr. Shoe]

Oh I agree. You can only punish someone who was aware that they were committing an offence. BUT, inorance of the law is no defence. If an offender is mentally ill, then they should be treated in a secure hospital like Ian Brady. If they are mentally disabled then they should be housed in a secure residential unit. Whether they have committed a capital offence or just a serious one. As it stands, by queer quirk if someone commits a murder but it is the opinion of the psychiatric profession that they will never be "cured" then they could be released! The insanity plea throws up an interesting conundrum: A man is innocent until proven guilty, however, a guilty man can also be "innocent" due to insanity. This means that if a defendant is insane, he has to plead guilty yet he is innocent. In other words he is guilty until proven innocent!

[Bubba136]

Gee whiz, and I always thought life was fair.

[Dexter23]

What about if I kill Marc Dutroux, if my little child has been abused by him. It would be murder one but in a case like that probaly justace has been served. Should I be sentenced to death ??

http://www.geocities.com/EnchantedForest/3877/Dutroux.html

[Phoenix764]

Fortunately, or Unfortunetly our legal system is bound by certain rules in effect and by the limits of current technology. Short of DNA evidence, we don't know for certain who was involved in a crime, or for that matter how many. Also, we don't know if they are innocent or guilty, and if gulty, can they be rehabilitated successfully and reintroduced into society, or are they such a danger that we should just spend the .39 cents and execute them? I have seen the inside of the legal system for almost 30 years in the US and I do think it needs to be changed. We had a justice here in California by the name of Rose Bird who on moral reason only declined death row convictions. If the law is sound, and the guy is a true danger to society - execute the B*&^*&(. To give you an example how messed up it is, inmates are fighting against having DNA samples being taken from them, to help law enforcement officials solve currently unsolved cases. In my opinion - which is EXTREME - put a loaded gun to the inmate's head and ask for the DNA sample ONCE. If he says no, kill him, take the sample, and move on to the next inmate. Either the inmates cooperate, or you reduce the population. Both ways you still get your DNA samples. I'd be prepared for a riot with several machine gun turrents to show them you mean business. This may offend several people, but I'm tired of serious offenders getting off lightly. It's God's job to judge them, and I say lets arrange that meeting as soon as possible in these cases.

[skenn]

There is something to be said for that, and also for someone else's comment, 'that a criminal should forfeit their rights' If you steal, then you should have no right to ownership. If you knife someone, then you should forfeit the protection of the law. Certainly, con's (at least for violent crime) should have no right to deny the taking of samples. This doesn't get away from you confidence in the justice system. Maybe, where the death penalty is concerned, the jury should be larger, and they should be split up into seperate groups for deliberation, and if any of the groups are not unanimous, then take a majority verdict for life imprisonment. That way, you would redise the effect of argument/persuasion swaying ALL the jurors.

[Dr. Shoe]

I think that taking a DNA sample should be as automatic as taking fingerprints and should be done at the point of charging. In these cases only the guilty have anything to fear. In the case of current cons, if they don't cooperate, drug themand take that sample. With regard to "human rights", a guilty prisoner should waive these. All too often the perpetrator seems to have more rights and more support than the victims who are often sent home after being humiliated in court.

[Phoenix764]

Just remember us yanks in America tend to believe in freedom to the extreme. Despite a overwhelming amount of evidence that says definately was involved in a double murder, O.J. Simpson is walking around scott free.

We need a tool that is completely impartial, and can not be fooled. We also another tool that can cut through the BS and tell who is lying or not. I'm completely in favor of punishing the lawyers along with their clients.

And as long as we're at it, let through out the 8th admendment - cruel and unusual punishment. We just had a very violent kidnapping, rape, and murder of a 5 year old girl here in southern california. I propose 2 punishments:

Live food for a zoo's large predators exhibit ( i.e. lion, tiger, bear - etc...)

or

drop him in shark infested waters with chum

make sure you video tape it and show it in the prisons, and make this the standard death sentence. No more injection BS. Let's scare the criminals - you take a life, when we get you, you're going down HARD

Thank you for listening to me rant and rave, and now back to your regularly scheduled program...

[azraelle]

I think it would be poetic justice if death would be carried out, as accurately as possible, in the same manner, including the time it took to die, as the killer's victim(s). In those cases of multiple murders, use the victim that suffered the most. Make the punishment fit the offense--that's what child psychologists advocate in raising children. Can't understand why this concept is called "cruel and unusual punishment" when it is applied to adults!

[Bubba136]

Just remember us yanks in America tend to believe in freedom to the extreme. Despite a overwhelming amount of evidence that says definately was involved in a double murder, O.J. Simpson is walking around scott free.

...

In O.J.'s case, it's called "jury nullification" -- that jury wasn't going to convict him no matter how damming the evidence.

[Phoenix764]

Bubba136, you're absolutely correct. Although it was a simple double murder case, that cockroach Johny Cocran used the race card, and even if O.J. had gotten up in the middle of that trial and had grabbed the prosecuter and slashed her throat in front of the entire jury, and on national televsion, they would have never convicted him. It was a sad day for the american justice system. I hope Jonny, O.J., and the rest of his defense team spend eternity is a place where SPF1000000 isn't strong enough. Azraelle, although I like your idea, I'd take it one step further. Some of these criminals have absolutely no fear and/or no respect for human life. If they shoot someone to death, simply shooting them to death is too simple and easy. Criminals see that on the streets and are used to it. If the state/government is going to punish someone for a serious crime I want them scared out of the minds about their fate if they get convicted. None of these 10 - 20 year appeals. No leathal injecion crap that puts one to sleep. I want something brutal, where they are fighting for their lives and they know they are going to lose; they are in serious pain; and they suffer. Only if what they do to their victims is more horrific, do we change the penalty. Give the victim, or the victim's family (in the case of murder) the right to do whatever damage they want to the criminal. They are not allowed to release him, and they do not have to take advantage of this offer, but if they want to, they can can. String the criminals (I'm being VERY polite here) up in a shower (easy cleanup) and have medical personal available if needed. Use your imagination, but I'm in favor of providing knives, hammers, power tools, the murder weapon, gun and ammo. The idea here is for the victim/victim's family to release all their rage and aggresion out on the attacker's. If this kill's them, oh well. If it doesn't, or they choose not to do this, fine - feed the criminals to the animals; unless they have diseases - we don't want to hurt the animals. If the have diseases, well they'd make a great involutary test subject for medical research. Geez, Medical students could actually do a real operation and botch it without worrying about the consequences! Example: Congradulations Dr. Jones, you've just killed your patient and failed this exam. You'll get another try in 3 days, please be prepared. Dr. Smith, your turn. Will someone get the next convict. Skip the anestia, this one was a really bad boy and doesn't get...

[skenn]

I hear what you guys are saying, and agree that in many cases, the level of evidence is crazy. Also, to the layers, it is just a competition to win. One idea I have, is to go back to mideval (how the f.. do you spell it) prision style. Cold cells, sleep on straw, gratuitous torture. Nothing unhealthy, but severely uncomfortable, basic food, none of this television, games room crap. Maybe, if they want to, study, but only allowed to continue if they realy put effort into it, and usefull subjects (i.e. No chemistry ..read bombmaking, law...to help them get off next time etc) Shane

[Bubba136]

Have you guys ever heard of Shariff Joe Arpaio of Maricopa County, Arizona?

Check out: http://www.mcso.org/submenu.asp?file=aboutsheriff&page=1 for his story

[Phoenix764]

Damm, we sure could use him out here in California . I'm also in favor of letting loose several special operation units of urban warfare troops to handle the gang problems. Apparently, our city police neither have the man power nor the fire power to deal with these gangs and I amd of the firm opinion that since these gangs have declared a war on the rest of the law abiding citizens, then we should show then what a war really means. Those "gentlemen" want a war, I'll give it to them, in spades!

[Dr. Shoe]

I agree, send in the SAS, SBS, MI5 whoever. The only problem is, innocent people are going to get caught in the crossfire as the Israelis knew when the reasons for knocking over Salah Shehada outweighed the loss of "innocent" lives. It is easy to say that decent people would have moved out but many have strong ties to the area and are too proud to admit defeat and leave their beloved homes to the mercy of the gangs and drug dealers. Yes I think that some carefully planned, intelligence led operations would have a significant impact on violent crime- after all those who commit these are typical bullies, total cowards when faced with someone tougher than they are. Whilst the Krays held court in East London, there was very little violent crime [on the streets] and innocent people could go about their business without fear at all which is partly why the police allowed them to continue for so long. They were only taken out when they started to get too greedy and overcharged on their "insurance premiums". Now, East London is a hotbed of mugging, burglary and car theft.

[Dr. Shoe]

Bubba136, you're absolutely correct. Although it was a simple double murder case, that cockroach Johny Cocran used the race card, and even if O.J. had gotten up in the middle of that trial and had grabbed the prosecuter and slashed her throat in front of the entire jury, and on national televsion, they would have never convicted him. It was a sad day for the american justice system. I hope Jonny, O.J., and the rest of his defense team spend eternity is a place where SPF1000000 isn't strong enough.

Azraelle, although I like your idea, I'd take it one step further. Some of these criminals have absolutely no fear and/or no respect for human life. If they shoot someone to death, simply shooting them to death is too simple and easy. Criminals see that on the streets and are used to it. If the state/government is going to punish someone for a serious crime I want them scared out of the minds about their fate if they get convicted. None of these 10 - 20 year appeals. No leathal injecion crap that puts one to sleep. I want something brutal, where they are fighting for their lives and they know they are going to lose; they are in serious pain; and they suffer. Only if what they do to their victims is more horrific, do we change the penalty.

Give the victim, or the victim's family (in the case of murder) the right to do whatever damage they want to the criminal. They are not allowed to release him, and they do not have to take advantage of this offer, but if they want to, they can can. String the criminals (I'm being VERY polite here) up in a shower (easy cleanup) and have medical personal available if needed. Use your imagination, but I'm in favor of providing knives, hammers, power tools, the murder weapon, gun and ammo. The idea here is for the victim/victim's family to release all their rage and aggresion out on the attacker's. If this kill's them, oh well. If it doesn't, or they choose not to do this, fine - feed the criminals to the animals; unless they have diseases - we don't want to hurt the animals. If the have diseases, well they'd make a great involutary test subject for medical research. Geez, Medical students could actually do a real operation and botch it without worrying about the consequences! Example: Congradulations Dr. Jones, you've just killed your patient and failed this exam. You'll get another try in 3 days, please be prepared. Dr. Smith, your turn. Will someone get the next convict. Skip the anestia, this one was a really bad boy and doesn't get...

The problem is in the fact that prison is not about revenge. It is a three pronged tool. We have punishment, rehabilitation and removal from society. It is important to get this mix right or else the person will not be fit for release.

However, there is a fourth prong to the tool: deterrence. If perpetrators see other prisoners who have been convicted of burglary say, having a colour telly in their room, access to state of the art leisure and fitness equipment and recreational facilities that would do a hotel proud then of course they're going to commit crime. However put them in an "Alcatraz" style prison with nothing to do, with lights that stay on day and night and a bed that is deliberately uncomfortable then others will think twice before committing a similar crime.

It's the same with capital punishment.

[Julietta]

I'm against the death penalty for the simple reason that innocents have been executed in the past and then nothing can bring them back. Also it makes the executioner a murderer too as it is premeditated. I do however believe in life should mean life just as in the case of Myra Hindley as a) if guilty, the person spends the rest of their life thinking about what they've done and if they are innocent, then they have the chance to be released

[PJ]

Here are some facts I learned studying criminal justice: 1 - The death penalty does not act as a deterrent to most criminals. 2 - There is no guarantee you are executing the guilty party. In the last 25 years, over 110 inmates in the USA have been removed from death row when evidence supported such a decision. 3 - A person sentenced to death has nothing to lose. So that person can and often does commit other crimes if given the opportunity. Giving additional punishment to someone about to be executed has little or no effect. 4 - As of 1999, the death penalty has been eliminated in 105 countries. There are approximately 190 countries in this world. 5 - The death penalty causes many countries to refuse prisoner exchanges. When given the chance, criminals often flee the USA to avoid capture and extradition. 6 - Not all criminals can be rehabilitated. and now for my personal viewpoint: 1 - I am against the death penalty. 2 - If executing a criminal is considered to be murder, then our armed forces personnel commit murder with each battle kill.

[Julietta]

If executing a criminal is considered to be murder, then our armed forces personnel commit murder with each battle kill.

Absolutely Peej and until we can stop killing we will never progress...

[mk4625]

I am also opposed to capital punishment for the reasons that have been mentioned. If my own mother or Kathy had been murdered, I would not wish for the guilty person's death. I think that carries a lot of negative karma. I also don't want to give an ambitious politician the opportunity to profit by tainting their memory. But that seems to be a minority point of view in America today.

[Julietta]

If my own mother or Kathy had been murdered, I would not wish for the guilty person's death. I think that carries a lot of negative karma.

I agree Mike.

If a person murders another and then they are executed the executioner becomes a murderer too. Apart from that it doesn't solve anything.

If life actually meant life imprisonment then people may actually think twice. Death is such an easy way out for a lot of people too, especially those who have had a bad background and/or who are down on their luck anyway and life has meant survival on the streets so to speak e.g. drug related killings.

The way forward is prevention and perhaps school is the place where potential problems could be spotted and then nipped in the bud. Also a lot of all these problems are due to low self esteems and again this could be addressed at schools where self esteem should be given with encouragement. Sounds idealic I know but the power and potential is there really I believe that. Even if children have bad home lives schools could offer solice and encouragement. Praise and encouragement don't cost a penny but the rewards in a person who has self esteem are priceless!

[Firefox]

I'm against the death penalty too for the reasons I've already stated in this thread. I was against the war in Iraq and I'm against killings by armed forces for the most part. But there has to come a point where killing by defence forces is justified. Say if England were invaded and the invading party were killing our civilians, I would support the armed forces to repel the invaders. But the war in Iraq wasn't about defence. It was a revenge attack for 9/11 and a war about control of oil. Therefore killings conducted in that scenario by our troops were effectively murder by our state.

[Yamyam]

For me, this is one of those really split things.

Intellectually, I agree that the death penalty doesn't seem to work. And I wonder about the immense cruelty of dragging people between death row and some means of execution, several times, whilst lawyers bicker over technicalities. Plus, of course, I have a problem with one person deciding to have someone else killed - a judge passing a death sentence. I also find the whole mechanism of avoidance disturbing - the row of switches when only one is 'live', the blank cartridges, and so on. Can we ever justify taking a life, even if someone else has? Really? Even if the person concerned is a criminal? Even if they've simply not been born yet?

Emotionally, as you all know, I'm a parent. And if I ever caught someone molesting our children, then I honestly think I'd kill them. And if they were convicted in a court of law, I'd want them executed. I'd pull the trigger, I'd push the button, I'd flick the switch. Why are we keeping child molesters alive? More to the point, why are we moving them to safe little houses that back on to school playgrounds? How come a trainee teacher who was trying to buy a 9-year old for sex gets three years in prison? How can this be right? 'Child molester' isn't like 'car radio thief'. Thieves can give up stealing radios. I don't think child molesters can give it up.

I know these two attitudes contradict. But I honestly think that most parents would agree with me. I'd be sorry about it, but I can't be. That's how I am.

[Firefox]

I'm not a parent so I can't say for certain in that regard, but in all other matters my morals rule my emotions. So even if in the heat of the moment I might want someone killed, in the cold light of day, when it comes to state executions which are carried out in a calculated manner, I don't think I could never condone it even if I was personally involved as a victim of the crime.

[Julietta]

I abhore, detest and think that child molesters are the lowest creatures on this earth. They are scum of the lowest order. They take a childs innocence away and change the course of their lives forever and in turn many of them become molesters themselves... I am a mother of 3 and if anyone touched any of my children my instinct would be to want that person wiped off the face of this earth. But it wouldn't solve anything because of the fact that many of them were molested themselves and so could have possibly passed that trait on to their victims. So there needs to be more input into how to stop the rot and spare our future children. These people should however be put away for life and never allowed near children again as statistically they do reoffend. In Britain, particularly, these people seem to get off lightly and our children are in constant threat of this horrible phenomenon the law needs to be changed to protect our children from these crimes and studies need to be conducted into how these people can be councelled or aided...

[JeffM]

This is a bit off topic, sorry for that. I have a friend who has a daughter. A couple of years ago she was a teenager asleep at night when some one crawled in through her window and woke her up on her bed. She screamed. My friend went to his daughters aid but he was gone. They called the police and my friend swore to the cops that if the guy came back and he caught him he would kill him. And the cop said that if he hit him with anything make sure it was hard enough to kill him because then he would get off with self defence of him self and/or his daughter, But if he maimed him he would go to gaol. How's that for justice.

[PJ]

To some people, there is no justice. Here are two examples. A man owned a vacation cottage. During the times he was not living there, someone would break in and ransack the place. Since the police could never catch this person, the owner decided to set up a trap. He rigged a shotgun to shoot anyone trying to break in through the front door. Well, one day, a teenager broke into the front door and was shot by the trap. Unfortunately, he lived. The teenager then sued the owner of the cottage and won in court. (In the USA, you can't use deadly force to protect property). The teenager not only got money to pay for all of his current and future medical bills, but he now owns the cottage that he was breaking into!!! A man was about to be executed in a prison. The guards and chaplain came to his prison cell to escort the prisoner to the electric chair. As they were walking to the death chamber, the prisoner had a heart attack. He was rushed to the hospital and required some expensive medical treatment paid for by us taxpayers. Once his health got better, they put him back on death row where he waited for another execution date.

[Julietta]

Peej the world is a mad place full of contradictions...