Current Middle East position any opinions

[Dr. Shoe]

I agree. However, I can't believe that all that is happening hasn't got big bucks behind it. OBL could not fund his attacks if he wasn't a billionaire already and despite his posturing as a "humble cleric" is still motivated by money. All the suicide bombers' families recieve a cash payout by wealthy moslim "sponsors" running into many tens of thousands of dollars. Anyone injured by Israeli gunfire receives $1500. Moreover, the moslim world sees us as a threat because only the US, the UKand Israel have the will and the resources to stand up to their bullying.

[skenn]

I agree with 'IHeels' to some extent, and there are several parallels with Northern Ireland. Arafat, I believe has been treading a very narrow path. He has been trying to cool the sutuation, but without loosing the support of his own people. Gerry Adams similarly. Sharon is a complete asshole as far as I am concerned. (excuse the expletive). His policies remind me of the Natzi's during the war, in realtion to the resistance. 'You kill 1 of ours, we execute 10 of yours. Colin Powel, has the right intent, but how can we expect America to be regarded as neutral in this when they are pumping billions into Israel. I think the South Africans have the best chance of being trusted by both sides, especially as they have been through vaguely similar problems. S.A. must be give the highest praise in their achievements, largely without outside help, and there hasn't been the genocide and civil that many African countries have experienced after European/American/Russian influence receded.

[azraelle]

YET(!)

[Bubba136]

[quote name='

and there hasn't been the genocide and civil that many African countries have experienced after European/American/Russian influence receded.[/quote']

Have you looked at the crime statistics in that country, recently?

[skenn]

Oh sure, the crime rate is high, but it is not being organized, or along tribal lines. A friend of mine was out there for a holiday, and while they were carefull where they went (heck, I felt damn uncomfortable for a while after I took a wrong turn in Miami a few wears back) they had no hint of trouble. Hopefully "YET" won't be justified. Shane

[Dr. Shoe]

I was just watching the news in the aftermath of the Israeli hit on the apartment block to take out the Hamas leader. We saw images of mothers crying over the loss of their children and husbands etc. Why don't we see TV images of Israeli mothers crying when hamas kill 15 school children on a bus? Why the media bias?

[Bubba136]

Good Question! Why don't we ask the reporters from the major news outlets why? I'm sure they will tell us something like dead Israelies don't invoke "sympathies of the underdog" .... poor Palistinians, they are only trying to regain what the big, ugly Americans and Jews unfairly took from them

[Phoenix764]

You're also forgeting one simple thing. It's a lot easier to show images of women and children killed, and generate simpathy; than to show live or taped footage of the rallys that go on that basically say "death to the jews" or "kill the jews". Now not only would this material not be well received on international news, but the reporters are threatened with death if they take pictures and publicize it. I'm sorry that innocents were killed and certainly don't wish it would happen, but a major leader of hamas was taken out and based on the actions of that group in the past, and the likelihood of no letdown in the future, I have to support Israel's actions. We have to accept the fact that there is a major war against terrorism going on in Israel at the present time, and has been for quite some time now. An unfortunate consequence of war is that innocent bystanders do get killed. What makes this war different is that the terrorist have almost entirely not attacked military targets; they have attacked civilian targets with the intent of instilling fear and panic. Both by their acts of terrorism, their choice in attacking targets that can't defend themselves - If Israel can locate a terrorist, then I agree with their methods: Take them out BEFORE they strike again. If this causes additional deaths, I'm sorry and I'll say a prayer for those that were ignorant of the terrorist's activities - otherwise let god be the judge...

[Dr. Shoe]

[. I'm sorry that innocents were killed and certainly don't wish it would happen, but a major leader of hamas was taken out and based on the actions of that group in the past, and the likelihood of no letdown in the future, I have to support Israel's actions. We have to accept the fact that there is a major war against terrorism going on in Israel at the present time, and has been for quite some time now. An unfortunate consequence of war is that innocent bystanders do get killed. What makes this war different is that the terrorist have almost entirely not attacked military targets; they have attacked civilian targets with the intent of instilling fear and panic. Both by their acts of terrorism, their choice in attacking targets that can't defend themselves - If Israel can locate a terrorist, then I agree with their methods: Take them out BEFORE they strike again. If this causes additional deaths, I'm sorry and I'll say a prayer for those that were ignorant of the terrorist's activities - otherwise let god be the judge...

[Phoenix764]

The fact that the vast majority of people killed so far have been non-military people; i.e. the old, the women, and children is a complete tragedy. Israel's counter attacks have never been aimed at civilians. I'm not saying innocents have not been hurt or killed, but they were never the target except in the case of what I would imagine would be very poor intelligence (very rare indeed for the Mossad). Now we have a bad tactical decision which killed and injured a lot of women and children. I firmly agree that the target needed to be taken out, but based on the location and population density a much different plan should have been used to minimize the damage. If for some reason the terrorists come to the bargaining table and stop the madness instead of declaring a holy war, maybe something good will come out of this. Otherwise the madness will continue.

[Bubba136]

Quote["If for some reason the terrorists come to the bargaining table and stop the madness instead of declaring a holy war, maybe something good will come out of this. Otherwise the madness will continue.]" I don't think there's one person in the entire western world that wouldn't like to see this situation resolved without further loss of life on either side. However, from the very beginning, Arab leaders announce, over and over, that total annihilation of the Jews is the only solution. The idea that the terrorists will sit at any table and mutually agree to a peaceful solution before this is achieved is unrealistic. Lasting peace in the region will only come after the Israelis totally conquer the Arabs once and for all. Through out all of history, peace is achieved only after one side crushes the other militarily, without mercy, into total surrender.

[Dr. Shoe]

The fact that the vast majority of people killed so far have been non-military people; i.e. the old, the women, and children is a complete tragedy. Israel's counter attacks have never been aimed at civilians. I'm not saying innocents have not been hurt or killed, but they were never the target except in the case of what I would imagine would be very poor intelligence (very rare indeed for the Mossad). Now we have a bad tactical decision which killed and injured a lot of women and children. I firmly agree that the target needed to be taken out, but based on the location and population density a much different plan should have been used to minimize the damage. If for some reason the terrorists come to the bargaining table and stop the madness instead of declaring a holy war, maybe something good will come out of this. Otherwise the madness will continue.

It is not a holy war or Jihad, it is an intifada or "general protest". The palestinians are not fundamentalist moslems any more than the citizens of the UK are all devote catholics! This means that they cannot declare a jihad because only a cleric can do that and then only on the grounds of a fundimental threat to the moslem faith, the intifada is not about religion, it is about territory.

[azraelle]

One of the main supporters of the original war to wipe out the Jews in 1946 was an Islamic religious leader in Lebanon (I can't recall the title he held). I got the distinct impression from my reading on the subject that he did call for a holy war. If he did I don't believe it was ever rescinded...

Lasting peace in the region will only come after the Israelis totally conquer the Arabs once and for all. Through out all of history, peace is achieved only after one side crushes the other militarily, without mercy, into total surrender.

Unfortunately, the VICE VERSA is also a distinct possibility.

[Phoenix764]

I'd like to share an essay, that was maybe a monologue done by Dennis Miller, a comedian known for intellectual sarcasim here in the states and in Canada. The following was done sometime after Sept. 11, 2000 and before June 1, 2002, but I have no idea of the exact date. I think he makes some very valid arguements.

DENNIS MILLER EXECUTIVE SUMMARY ON THE MID-EAST CONFLICT:

(Or...Mid-East for Dummies)

A brief overview of the situation is always valuable, so as a service to all Americans who still don't get it, I now offer you the story of the Middle East in just a few paragraphs, which is all you really need.

Don't thank me. I'm a giver. Here we go:

The Palestinians want their own country. There's just one thing about it. There are no Palestinians. It's a made up word. Israel was called Palestine for two thousand years. Like "Wiccan," "Palestinian" sounds ancient but it's really a modern invention. Before the Israelis won the land in war, Gaza was owned by Egypt, and there were no "Palestinians" then, and the West Bank was owned by Jordan, and there were no "Palestinians" then.

As soon as the Jews took over and started growing oranges as big as basketballs, what do you know, say hello to the "Palestinians," weeping for their deep bond with their lost "land" and "nation."

So for the sake of honesty, let's not use the word "Palestinian" any more to describe these delightful folks, who dance for joy at our deaths until someone points out they're being taped. Instead, let's call them what they are: "Other Arabs From The Same General Area Who Are In Deep Denial About Never Being Able To Accomplish Anything In Life but Struggle And Death."

I know that's a bit unwieldy to expect to see on CNN.

How about this, then: "Adjacent Jew-Haters." Okay, so the Adjacent Jew-Haters want their own country.

Oops, just one more thing. No, they don't.

They could've had their own country any time in the last thirty years, especially two years ago at Camp David. But if you have your own country, you have to have traffic lights and garbage trucks and Chambers of Commerce, and, worse, you actually have to figure out some way to make a living.

That's no fun. No, they want what all the other Jew-Haters in the region want:

Israel. They also want a big pile of dead Jews, of course-that's where the real fun is-but mostly they want Israel.

Why? For one thing, trying to destroy Israel -or "The Zionist Entity" as their textbooks call it-for the last fifty years has allowed the rulers of Arab countries to divert the attention of their own people away from the fact that they're the blue-ribbon most illiterate, poorest, and tribally backward on God's Earth, and if you've ever been around God's Earth, you know that's really saying something.

It makes me roll my eyes every time one of our pundits waxes poetic about the great history and culture of the Muslim Mid-East. Unless I'm missing something, the Arabs haven't given anything to the world since Algebra, and, by the way, thanks a hell of a lot for that one.

Chew this around and spit it out: Five hundred million Arabs; five million Jews. Think of all the Arab countries as a football field, and Israel as a pack of matches sitting in the middle of it. And now these same folks swear that if Israel gives them half of that pack of matches, everyone will be pals.

Really? Wow, what neat news. Hey, but what about the string of wars to obliterate the tiny country and the constant din of rabid blood oaths to drive every Jew into the sea? Oh, that? We were just kidding.

My friend Kevin Rooney made a gorgeous point the other day. Just reverse the numbers. Imagine five hundred million Jews and five million Arabs. I was stunned at the simple brilliance of it. Can anyone picture the Jews strapping belts of razor blades and dynamite to themselves? Of course not.

Or marshalling every fiber and force at their disposal for generations to drive a tiny Arab state into the sea? Nonsense. Or dancing for joy at the murder of innocents? Impossible. Or spreading and believing horrible lies about the Arabs baking their bread with the blood of children? Disgusting.

No, as you know, left to themselves in a world of peace, the worst Jews would ever do to people is debate them to death.

Mr. Bush, God bless him, is walking a tightrope. I understand that with vital operations coming up against Iraq and others, it's in our interest, as Americans, to try to stabilize our Arab allies as much as possible, and, after all, that can't be much harder than stabilizing a roomful of supermodels who've just had their drugs taken away.

However, in any big-picture strategy, there's always a danger of losing moral weight. We've already lost some. After September 11 our president told us and the world he was going to root out all terrorists and the countries that supported them. Beautiful. Then the Israelis, after months and months of having the equivalent of an Oklahoma City every week (and then every day) start to do the same thing we did, and we tell them to show restraint.

If America were being attacked with an Oklahoma City every day, we would all very shortly be screaming for the administration to just be done with it and kill everything south of the Mediterranean and east of the Jordan. (Hey, wait a minute, that's actually not such a bad idea.... uh, that is, what a horrible thought, yeah, horrible.)

[Bubba136]

"Unfortunately, the VICE VERSA is also a distinct possibility. [icon_cry.gif] " Yes, however, the Israelies have vowed, time and again that" No Muslim nation will ever possess an atomic bomb and, if they preceive any war will end with their demise, they will use their atomic arsnal to defend themselves.(believe me, they are watching Pakistan very, very closely) An Arab victory would pull the whole of western civilitation into the frey because Muslims would be so emboldened as not to quit after annihilating the Jews.

[Dr. Shoe]

DENNIS MILLER EXECUTIVE SUMMARY ON THE MID-EAST CONFLICT:

(Or...Mid-East for Dummies)

Great stuff! What a wonderfully incisive analysis of the Middle Eastern situation.

However, I don't think that Dennis Miller was aware that Palestine is one of the oldest nations on Earth, Samson was at war with them except that they were called Phillistines then. Largely by accident than design, the Phillistines became a major power in the region that we know as the Middle East. They were a wicked and barbaric people who would routinely cripple POWs and parade them in front of the hierarchy at celebration feasts. They were even given to cannibalism and indulged in ritual sodomisation of enemy prisoners. Everywhere they went they would destroy culture, infrastruture and any seat of learning, the Great Library was destroyed by them and this deed alone set European science, technology and learning back at least a thousand years. Most of the scientific and cultural advances of the renaisance were rediscoveries of technology that was known to the Greeks and (ancient) Egyptians. The only people to retain that level of technology were the Chinese because they were too far away geographically to be greatly affected.

For 1,500 years, the only technbology to filter through to the west was by way of Arab traders who exacted a very high price for these secrets and so stifled access to science until the explorations of Marco Polo and the establishment of the silk road thus sparking off the renaissance. Kubla Khan could not believe how backward Europe was considering that the Mongolians felt not the need to keep anything secret at all.

The nation of Palestine included most of Asia Minor, Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Lebanon. The country we know as Israel stretched as far as north west africa to the sudan and ethiopia. In Samson's day, the Judeans were fighting to stop them from sweeping through to attack the wealth of the Egyptians who were Judah's allies in the Philistine wars.

Because of the ferocious barbarity of the Philistines the word is used to describe anyone who eschews culture and is somewhat course and vulgar.

By about 500BC, the palestinians had thrown there empire away by waging pointless war with the Khanates in the south and the emergent Roman empire in the north, they were also badly defeated by Alexander the Great some 400 years ealier from which they had never recovered.

[texasbumpkin]

My opionion on the current state of the middle east is that our government is scared.....they do not want another invasion of Kuwait, and they do not want to have to tap into the oil reserve that is here in the states.....It is all about Oil, and Bush Jr having to clean up after his father's mess. Bush Sr should have sent in a special forces team, wether it be seals, rangers, delta force to take care of Saddam.....this would have spared the lives of thousands of civilians and not have exposed out troops to chemicals that are now affecting their health.......The people on these special forces teams, know that when they get called out they may not come back, but they are willing to make that sacrafice for this country, for our freedom and the freedom of other people when they are helping to defend one of our allies. This possible attack is also do to oil.....they control it, we need it....that is the bottom line. We have very few, and I mean very few things that do not run on fossil fuels.....they are starting to tap into George's bank to the horror of fisherman, but people do not want to give up their fossil fuels. Look at the proprosed wind farm off the coast of Martha's Vineyard and the coast of Virginia. People are putting up a stink where they do not want their precious views disrupted. This is the ideals of the people who run the country....The rich. They can afford to pay the astronomical prices of oil when Saddam lights oil wells on fire, but it is us, the people who actually do the work for the rich that have to pay for their view. If we went to more veritile types of energy - solar, wind, hydro - and were not so dependent on fossil fuels, would we even be having this converstation????? that is my opionion....I welcome yours.