How did September 11th affect you ?

[j-turbo2002]

one word: propaganda

Yes Trolldeg, you have spoken like a true Swede. In fact, I expected this kind of garbage talk from a Swede. In my debate experience I have found that those who use the word “propaganda” are usually knowledgably, intellectually, logically, and morally stupid (90% of the time that is!). In my debate experience I have also found that those who use the word “propaganda” are nothing but cowards who usually know absolutely nothing about any issue (90% of the time that is!) and who are afraid to debate others who know what they are talking about because they have done their homework (like me!). So, since they can’t debate anyone they usually run and hide behind the word “propaganda”.

Need I say more?

[Highluc]

No, you better don't say more, this was already too much. Please continue your homework in silence and analyse the latest reports from the CIA and FBI, those guys have done a great job in the past keeping your (war) industry going by first supporting then afterwards countering the same factions in different parts of the world. Your very smart democratically elected (or judge appointed) president will certainly not act as a coward this time, and will have his troops comitted to war unlike his own Viet-nam commitment when he was younger.

[hoverfly]

Wooooooooooooooah!!!!!!!!! Kick the tires and light the fires! We got a live one here!

[j-turbo2002]

No, you better don't say more, this was already too much.

I totally agree with you here. But then again, there is a saying here in America that says, "If you cannot take the heat (i.e., if it is too much) then get the hell out of the kitchen!

Please continue your homework in silence...

Oh great! This is just what I need - another true leftist liberal european who is trying to silence the voice of opposition (of truth, logic, and reason that is!)

So you don't like what I say? I see how it is!

.....analyse the latest reports from the CIA and FBI......

This is just a quarter of what I have been doing (along with all of the other sources that I read) !!!!! I have even made reference a few times to these things in other topics. Where have you been? Let me guess - another world tour perhaps?

....CIA and FBI, those guys have done a great job in the past keeping your (war) industry going by first supporting then afterwards countering the same factions in different parts of the world. Your very smart democratically elected (or judge appointed) president will certainly not act as a coward this time, and will have his troops comitted to war unlike his own Viet-nam commitment when he was younger.

So why don't you do something constructive and tell us something that we don't know? Well, I don't know about the smart President bit but then again I have never met Bush Jr. nor do I know him. So, he may be very intelligent and we just don't know.

Wooooooooooooooah!!!!!!!!! Kick the tires and light the fires! We got a live one here!

Hoverfly! For God's sake man get a grip on yourself! His post wasn't that great! At least I didn't think so. I hope that you are talking about flat tires?

[Highluc]

Oh great! This is just what I need - another true leftist liberal european who is trying to silence the voice of opposition (of truth, logic, and reason that is!)

If you had access to all the sources and did your homework you would find out I happen to be a retired United States Air Force graduated fighter bomber pilot that flew F104's and F16's all his life, when not in the air I pulled Quick Readiness Alert duties with a US nuclear bomb on my aircraft. I've been fighting in ex-yougoslavia, also coordinating all the humanitarian Medevac flights during 3 months with Mr Annan before he became the UN boss, and after retirement was called back to coordinate the flying activities of the Belgian and the Dutch air forces over the Balcan out of the headquarters of Italy during the 6 month crisis.

Does that sound like a leftist liberal European? I know what I'm talking about and have often seen how the US brings peace through the world. What are your credentials?

This is my final posting in this discussion, I'll watch from the sideline (as most of the European cowards prefer to do).

[j-turbo2002]

If you had access to all the sources and did your homework you would find out I happen to be a retired United States Air Force graduated fighter bomber pilot that flew F104's and F16's all his life, when not in the air I pulled Quick Readiness Alert duties with a US nuclear bomb on my aircraft. I've been fighting in ex-yougoslavia, also coordinating all the humanitarian Medevac flights during 3 months with Mr Annan before he became the UN boss, and after retirement was called back to coordinate the flying activities of the Belgian and the Dutch air forces over the Balcan out of the headquarters of Italy during the 6 month crisis.

Does that sound like a leftist liberal European? I know what I'm talking about and have often seen how the US brings peace through the world. What are your credentials?

This is my final posting in this discussion, I'll watch from the sideline (as most of the European cowards prefer to do).

Well, I must commend you on what you have done because it is a very good thing indeed - more power to you! But unfortunately when I do my homework Highlic's web page is the very last place that I would go to. I am sorry that I hurt your feelings but believe me this wasn't the intent. Besides, what you gave us here was way too much information. Your personal life is your business and not any of ours! Also, I have heard stories like yours before because half of my family and friends were in the U.S. military (some retired and some not) and I have heard all of thier brave stories as well as yours. So, I am well aware as to how the U.S. brings peace to the world. About me, well I don't want to give too much away but I am a Mechanical Engineer (yes, I know how to do homework) who knows (or who knew - a while ago) a little bit about designing and building military aircraft and jet engines. Then I got into well - lets just say - world manufacturing. It was here that I got to travel all over the world (I am off again in Feb.) and learn the art of negotiations. I had to do lots of homework and study various cultures, learn a few languages, study economic analysis of various countries, etc. It has been very hard but I have done it so far. In my travels I have met and have become good friends with whomever I have come into contact with. I know about the rest of the world. I also do a lot of reading as I fly.

I hope that you don't sit there out on the sideline forever - that is the wrong thing to do! Besides I used to be a big liberal and then (about 10 yrs. ago) I woke up! Also, you are not a coward - if I recall you never used the word propaganda! You have some "balls"! You got up and let me have it ! That is very good - I must admit! You gave me a lot more than what I wanted to know - but still, WOW!

By the way, during WWII my grandfather nearly lost his life trying to make Europe a free place. Unfortunately when his tank was attacked in Germany he lost two of his best friends. He was indeed the most left wing liberal person that I ever knew. So sometimes it can be hard to tell who is liberal and who is not. The liberals of the past were way different from what they are today.

[hoverfly]

Wooooooooooooooah!!!!!!!!! Kick the tires and light the fires! We got a live one here!

Hoverfly! For God's sake man get a grip on yourself! His post wasn't that great! At least I didn't think so. I hope that you are talking about flat tires?

Oooooooh I got a grip on something all right, the ejection handle!!! My comment was on how hot this discussion got. Not to any one in particular. Speaking of flat tires, sounds like you are a typical easy going American, do you have a spare?

[Dr. Shoe]

Why is it JTurdbo, that you have to try your hardest to insult everyone who doesn't agree with you and will not swallow your government's propaganda.

Let's look at some facts:

Iraq is sitting on 113 million barrels of oil reserves, the Bush family are oil men.

Americans are complaining about high gas prices brought on by OPEC electing to decrease output and force oil prices up. Venezuela, The US and The UK usually vote in accord but can only muster around 200 million barrels between them. Saudi has 226 million barrels and combined with Kuwait and all the other Arab states have the voting power of around 350 million barrels.

Iraq has never been linked to Al Qaida and Osama Bin Laden has even gone on record criticising Saddam's corrupt form of Islam. OK, they have tried to build an arsenal of Mass Weapons but that owes much to Saddam's ambition to be president of a Middle East superpower hence the war with Iran and the invasion of Kuwait. They may well sponsor terrorism, but didn't the US famously train and arm to the Contras with money raised selling arms to Iran? Ollie North remember him JT?

Yes I do see the world my way but I hate to be the one to break the news to you that around 99% of this world's population also see it the same way. Even nations that would have much to gain by the "toppling" of Saddam's regime, it's historical enemies Israel and Iran even Syria and Jordan would benefit greatly by the removal of such a megalomaniac, have all asked for restraint and to try and settle the matter democratically.

I'm afraid that you have the kind of President who's party spent more than $10 million campaigning to place him in office. I don't know what his salary is but you can bet your rather fetching stiletto boots that it is somewhat less that 2.5 million per year. There has to be a payback somewhere whether the money came out of his own pocket or someone else's.

As for the matter of "Muslim Causes" you're right there aren't any- at least from our viewpoint. What Muslims see as a threat is the ever growing influence of the Zionists. They see America and to a lesser degree the UK as instruments of their great enemy. That my friend is why they martyr themselves flying jets into skyscrapers, or set up labs in London to try and poison us. Ask yourself this question, how many Jews are there in influential positions within the US government compared to the number of Muslims.

[j-turbo2002]

Why is it JTurdbo, that you have to try your hardest to insult everyone who doesn't agree with you and will not swallow your government's propaganda.

It is funny how truth is seen as hate speech isn't it? I speak the truth and therefore I am seen as someone who insults everyone! I see how it is. Even though I admitted that I was wrong and commended Highluc on what he had accomplished. I am still seen by one leftist liberal moron as someone who insults. The idiodic, senseless, and mindless logic of those who accuse me of such atcs just amaze me sometimes.

The following paragraph is false and misleading because there are not references at all!

Let's look at some facts:

Iraq is sitting on 113 million barrels of oil reserves, the Bush family are oil men.

Americans are complaining about high gas prices brought on by OPEC electing to decrease output and force oil prices up. Venezuela, The US and The UK usually vote in accord but can only muster around 200 million barrels between them. Saudi has 226 million barrels and combined with Kuwait and all the other Arab states have the voting power of around 350 million barrels.

Iraq has never been linked to Al Qaida and Osama Bin Laden has even gone on record criticising Saddam's corrupt form of Islam. OK, they have tried to build an arsenal of Mass Weapons but that owes much to Saddam's ambition to be president of a Middle East superpower hence the war with Iran and the invasion of Kuwait. They may well sponsor terrorism, but didn't the US famously train and arm to the Contras with money raised selling arms to Iran? Ollie North remember him JT?

Yes I do see the world my way but I hate to be the one to break the news to you that around 99% of this world's population also see it the same way. Even nations that would have much to gain by the "toppling" of Saddam's regime, it's historical enemies Israel and Iran even Syria and Jordan would benefit greatly by the removal of such a megalomaniac, have all asked for restraint and to try and settle the matter democratically.

I'm afraid that you have the kind of President who's party spent more than $10 million campaigning to place him in office. I don't know what his salary is but you can bet your rather fetching stiletto boots that it is somewhat less that 2.5 million per year. There has to be a payback somewhere whether the money came out of his own pocket or someone else's.

As for the matter of "Muslim Causes" you're right there aren't any- at least from our viewpoint. What Muslims see as a threat is the ever growing influence of the Zionists. They see America and to a lesser degree the UK as instruments of their great enemy. That my friend is why they martyr themselves flying jets into skyscrapers, or set up labs in London to try and poison us. Ask yourself this question, how many Jews are there in influential positions within the US government compared to the number of Muslims.

Dr. Shoe! What you wrote in the above paragraph was just beautiful, but............

I cannot argue with someone who has no references at all. It is pointless and a waste of time.

If this were a term paper that you wrote in school I would give you an F (Failure) because you did not reference anything. Nothing! Nada! Ziltch!

Where are all the references that back all of your shit (everything that you wrote in the above paragraph) up?

Especially this bunch of shit (see below):

Yes I do see the world my way but I hate to be the one to break the news to you that around 99% of this world's population also see it the same way.

Wanderful! I might agree. How did they get the 99% figure? Who did the study? When? Where? How long did the study last? Do you see the problems here?

Why is this such a hard task for you (referencing your sources - that is)? I wonder?

Please tell me that you have sources other than the BBC or the Daily Mail? Or perhaps maybe you already thew those copies away?

The reason that I am asking these things from you is the fact that I know that you cannot do it. I have based this solely from dealing with you in the past and asking such of you.

I have gone out of my way to do it (referencing my info at times) but you seen to be excluded from it. Why is that?

Or better yet, since you seem to be excluded from referencing your sorces it means that you have some very strong credentials? We heard from Highluc. I am a Mechanical Engineer who used to analyize and build F-16's and who today travels the globe helping people solve thier engineering problems. But what are you (without giving too much away)? From the way you write you must be someone important. I am really looking forward to hearing about it.

[j-turbo2002]

Lets go through each statement and find the stupidity - shall we? I will be the guide through the fog.

As of right now there are no facts because there are no references!

Iraq is sitting on 113 million barrels of oil reserves, the Bush family are oil men.

Great! I wish that I could agree except we don't know where Shoe got this info from!

Americans are complaining about high gas prices brought on by OPEC electing to decrease output and force oil prices up.

Once again. Who said this?

Venezuela, The US and The UK usually vote in accord but can only muster around 200 million barrels between them. Saudi has 226 million barrels and combined with Kuwait and all the other Arab states have the voting power of around 350 million barrels.

Where did all of these statistics come from? What literature?

Iraq has never been linked to Al Qaida and Osama Bin Laden has even gone on record criticising Saddam's corrupt form of Islam.

I wish that I could agree but if you are going to say stupid shit like this ate least back it up with some good info that all of us can read for ourselves.

OK, they have tried to build an arsenal of Mass Weapons but that owes much to Saddam's ambition to be president of a Middle East superpower hence the war with Iran and the invasion of Kuwait.

A superpower? What? Where is the economic analysis that leads you in this direction?

They may well sponsor terrorism, but didn't the US famously train and arm to the Contras with money raised selling arms to Iran? Ollie North remember him JT?

They may have. Pretend that I know nothing about the issue?

I want to know what books you read that gave you this information.

Yes I do see the world my way but I hate to be the one to break the news to you that around 99% of this world's population also see it the same way.

Wanderful! I might agree. How did they get the 99% figure? Who did the study? When? Where? How long did the study last? Do you see the problems that you left us here?

Even nations that would have much to gain by the "toppling" of Saddam's regime, it's historical enemies Israel and Iran even Syria and Jordan would benefit greatly by the removal of such a megalomaniac, have all asked for restraint and to try and settle the matter democratically.

I might also agree with this. Where did you get this information from?

I'm afraid that you have the kind of President who's party spent more than $10 million campaigning to place him in office. I don't know what his salary is but you can bet your rather fetching stiletto boots that it is somewhat less that 2.5 million per year. There has to be a payback somewhere whether the money came out of his own pocket or someone else's.

Where did we get all of the information about Bush and his finances?

As for the matter of "Muslim Causes" you're right there aren't any- at least from our viewpoint. What Muslims see as a threat is the ever growing influence of the Zionists. They see America and to a lesser degree the UK as instruments of their great enemy. That my friend is why they martyr themselves flying jets into skyscrapers, or set up labs in London to try and poison us. Ask yourself this question, how many Jews are there in influential positions within the US government compared to the number of Muslims.

What did you read that led you to this conclusion?

I'd suggest you start putting your money where your mouth is.

Remember, you can't take the easy way out and just give us BBC and Daily Mail sources like you usually do. I want to see something else for a change.

[jim]

To Let.

[j-turbo2002]

Why is it JTurdbo, that...........

I was not going to mention this before but, since I am on a roll, might as well start up another argument. Notice how someone used the name JTurdbo instead of JTurbo. In my debate experience this indeed is a sign of a true coward who truly knows that he is about ready to loose a debate. In my debate experience when true leftist liberal nuts start resorting to childish antics and name calling it is usually a sign that they are running out of ideas and they have no where left to run and hide. So, instead, they make up beautiful worded arguments for which there is no backing (references). Next thing you know they send their mommys over to your house to tell your parents to stop picking on their poor child. It is just a matter of time before they are beaten to a pulp in the debate.

Yes, Dr. Shoe I am afraid that your clock is ticking.

[Robert]

Please gentlemen, this is going to be far off topic. Instead of looking for each others faults or who's wrong I agree with Jim that there was one simple question in the beginning. If we can "happy heeling" can we also "happy debating"? Greetings, Robert

[azraelle]

Opinions are like ass-holes--everybody has one!

Dr.Shoe wrote:

...the Bush family are oil men.

This is illustrative of the attitude of Dr. Shoe that incenses me more than anything else he says. Everybody has to make a living by one means or another (even the Queen of England!). Just because George Bush Sr.'s father made a good portion of the family's wealth from oil speculation doesn't mean that the entire Bush clan are driven politically by OIL!! And even if it were true, Big Oil is no worse a villain than several others I could name, and less than still others (fundamentalist Muslim attitudes towards women and the atrocities that have been and still are being perpetrated by Muslim males in the name of "religion" comes to mind).

You seem to have the opinion that everyone from Texas (the second-largest state in the US) has nothing on their political minds but oil. Let's see now, the DeBeers family has a Great Britain-sanctioned monopoly on 99+% of the world's gem-quality diamonds, and ~70% of the industrial-grade diamonds. The government of Great Britain has stood by this monopoly for at least 130 years. It could well be argued that the government of Great Britain is therefore driven politically by protecting the monopoly-cooperating sources of diamonds, and their governments at all costs. Is this why South Africa was tacitly allowed to get away with Apartheid for so long? Or why Russia still qualifies for World Bank loans, tit for tat, for their cooperation in not dumping Russian diamonds on the open market for an economic "quick fix"?

Equally possible scenarios to your allegations that George Bush Jr. is only after Saddam Hussein to gain control of Iraq's oil. While I believe that J-Turbo is WAYYY OUT IN LEFT FIELD with his castigation of your opinions, Dr.Shoe, I also feel that you are also full of B.S. (and perhaps a bit of envy as well) when it comes to your opinions of what the real motivation is behind the US coalition wanting to topple the Saddam regime. Get over it!! Both of you.

[PJ]

One important fact that I learned while studying criminal law; never ask a question in court that you don't already know the answer to. My reference for this is my former instructor, Mr. Charles Stewart, J.D. Sorry but I don't have his current address.

[j-turbo2002]

Opinions are like ass-holes--everybody has one!

While I believe that J-Turbo is WAYYY OUT IN LEFT FIELD with his castigation of your opinions, Dr.Shoe........

Amen Azraelle! You are exactly right! I was having a lot of fun but now it is over thanks to you! Just to let you all know that my feelings were never hurt at all nor were they ever - I was having some fun. I am very used to the battle of debate and I can sure take whatever the hell anyone can throw at me! And you are exactly correct - I was very harsh with Dr. Shoe in my castigation of his opinions and I am sorry that I upset you all! And yes I did go waaaaaaaaaayy out in left field. I am a very intelligent person and when I went back and looked at what I read I almost can't believe that I said those things but, hey, I was having fun. I am allowed to do this right? I hope? I am sorry to all those who got the WAY WRONG impression. I should have just told Dr. Shoe that he was full of shit and left it at that! I am sorry Dr. Shoe for beating up on you like that! Can you find it in your heat to forgive me? Did I just ask that question? Oh yes, I think that I apologized to Highluc but just in case I didn't I would like to say that I am sorry, Highluc. Besides I have been to Belgium before and if memory serves me correctly it is a fairly conservative place.

And finally most of all I would like to apologize to everyone on this forum for really screwing up this topic! But hey, welcome to the wanderful world of the internet!

How did the 11th affect me - it didn't. I got right back up and continued what I have been doing. Right after the 11th when the Fed's let all of the aircraft back into the air I was on a flight to New Orleans to do some much needed buisness. People needed my help and I was there! I must admit that it was fun having a large commercial aircraft all to myself!

By the way, I let the cat out of the bag and let everyone know that I am an mechanical engineer. So if there are any technical questions that you would like to ask me just let me know. If I don't know the answer (because I don't know everything that there is to know about engineering)I will indeed find place where you can look. That is my job I solve problems for people and make their lives better. If you want to ask anything just start a new topic instead of destroying this one like I did (I'm sorry).

[Bubba136]

George H.W. Bush's oil interests were mostly in "off shore" drilling in the Gulf of Mexico. He and his partners developed early methods and technicues used by their company, Zapata Oil. And, he's not that wealthy. My brother-in-law has more money that he does. (I don't , however )

[Dr. Shoe]

How did the 11th affect me - it didn't. I got right back up and continued what I have been doing. Right after the 11th when the Fed's let all of the aircraft back into the air I was on a flight to New Orleans to do some much needed buisness. People needed my help and I was there! I must admit that it was fun having a large commercial aircraft all to myself!

I do believe that's the first thing you've written in this forum that I actually agree whole heartedly!

OK it was very tragic what happened, but then all disasters are be they natural or man-made. When 3,000 indians died in Bhopal we were all sorry for people who were injured and the families of those who died, but life went on. It's the same thing with the Twin towers isn't it? From the point of view of a Brit with no family in New York it was tragic but only to the same extent as Bhopal or any other disaster that included mass loss of life.

The only thing that got me was the fact that Human Beings can do that sort of thing to others outside of conventional warfare.

BTW I was offended by your personal attacks but I am a big enough person to forgive. I entered this forum looking for a debate, not an argument.

[j-turbo2002]

BTW I was offended by your personal attacks but I am a big enough person to forgive. I entered this forum looking for a debate, not an argument.

Oh, I must admit that I was not arguing with you at all! Believe-it-or-not I was debating with you. I was having fun and playing on the fact that you never refernced any of your information and must admit that I took it WAY TO FAR. To the point where I upset everyone. I am indeed sorry for that and being so harsh on you.

In my other post I had written that I was not upset and I must admit that that is false. I am upset about one issue and that is that some people almost believed some of our bullshit (i.e., they almost assumed it as fact) - on certain issues that is! I am almost dumbfounded at this. What is written in a High Heel Forum on the internet about world issues should never be taken or assumed to be fact! Do not believe everything that you read here, in this forum, on world issues. And please don't get upset by what you read. I come to this forum to have to have a good time - that is what it is here for.

I have learned one important fact about the internet:

The internet can make you the smartest person on the face of the planet and the internet can also make you the dumbest person on the face of the planet in a matter of milliseconds.

And where we draw the line between the two has yet to be determined.

Now I am not saying the internet does not have a lot of good true information because it most certainly does - that is, if you know where to look!

As a matter of fact I think that everyone on this forum is wise enough to hold his or her own opinions.

[Dr. Shoe]

How very true! I think we all have our own beliefs and should agree to disagree. I believe that there is more to the invasion of Iraq than meets the eye, you (evidently) accept the reasons at face value, let's just shake hands and keep our own opinions?

[Jezebel]

A truce, hurrah!!

[Highluc]

A truce, hurrah!!

Now let's hope some national leaders will be as sensible and hopefully we'll be able to avoid a terrible war.

[Bubba136]

'Al-Qa'eda attack inevitable' Tony Blair has warned that it is "inevitable" that al-Qa'eda terrorists will launch an attack on Britain. (Hey, Dr. Shoe! -- Keep your head down.) France Vows to Block Resolution on Iraq War: "We think that military intervention would be the worst possible solution," French Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin said at a news conference. (Shawn Baldwin -- AP) Hmmmm! I wonder! Why is France so dead set against a war with Iraq? Could it be that successful military action against Iraq would reveal the extent of French (and German) trade and cooperation with Iraq in developing weapons of mass destruction? Or, is is perhaps the fact that there are so many Algerians living in France that any support of military action against Muslims would creat uncontrolable civil unrest?

[Julietta]

Now let's hope some national leaders will be as sensible and hopefully we'll be able to avoid a terrible war.

I'll echo that!

[Dr. Shoe]

'Al-Qa'eda attack inevitable'

Tony Blair has warned that it is "inevitable" that al-Qa'eda terrorists will launch an attack on Britain. (Hey, Dr. Shoe! -- Keep your head down.)

France Vows to Block Resolution on Iraq War: "We think that military intervention would be the worst possible solution," French Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin said at a news conference. (Shawn

Baldwin -- AP)

Hmmmm! I wonder! Why is France so dead set against a war with Iraq? Could it be that successful military action against Iraq would reveal the extent of French (and German) trade and cooperation with Iraq in developing weapons of mass destruction? Or, is is perhaps the fact that there are so many Algerians living in France that any support of military action against Muslims would creat uncontrolable civil unrest?

Of course it's inevitable, but what has that got to do with a war with Iraq?

[azraelle]

Last night I was interviewed on-camera by a roving TV news patrol about Iraq. The subject came up as to whether Saddam should remain, and if not, whose responsibility it should be to take him out. I said it should be done by the Iraqis themselves--with our support. I then added that if we had supported the Kurds back in 1991, we wouldn't be worrying about Saddam now. That really set them back on their pins--one of the newscasters said "He has a point!" Could it be that George Jr. is taking care of something that he has been ashamed that his dad didn't do when he had the chance? George Sr., and later Bill Clinton, knew what kind of a shellacking the Kurds were getting by Saddam's forces, essentially as payback for their covert support for our intelligence-gathering during the Gulf War, yet they steadfastly refused to do anything about it other than occasionally supporting the "no fly zone" in the northern part of Iraq, where the majority of Kurds lived. Yet another case of the stupidity of allying yourself with the USA, whose policies are likely to change in 4, or if you're very lucky, 8 years.

[Highluc]

I think the Kurd problem is a little more complex and also involves the Turks a lot. Turkey now is an Islamic governed counrty that gets support from the USA (for it's strategic position and permanent use of airbases?), but already has claimed parts of Northern Irak in the past (to better control or suppress the Kurds?) and already has announced to do the same after this (probable) war. Whatever happens, the Kurds are on the losing end because nobody cares about their fate.

[Bubba136]

One problem with with finding a solution to the Kurdish problem is that they’re holding out for an autonomous homeland. Neither the Turks nor Iraq is willing to give up any territory to them. And, that’s going to be a tough nut to crack.

[Highluc]

One problem with with finding a solution to the Kurdish problem is that they’re holding out for an autonomous homeland

That's also the eternal problem with the Palestinians.

In Belgium we also face something similar, while some want to merge all those countries into a kind of United Europe, Flamish separatists want their autonomy from the Walloons and want to split up Belgium. I'm happy we don't have any oil so I don't expect anybody will "help" us resolve that problem...LOL

[jim]

In my last post on this subject I really didn't answer the question .After rereading the replies here and in another thread on this board I was bothered to the point of reposting. I offer no apology to those kinder gentler folk who may take offence at this. So here it is, this is exactly how I feel.

I think the original question was, "How September 11 affected you?"

It was, with out a doubt, a horrific and senseless act and what it did was reaffirm my decision to never give up with out a fight and sharpen up my situational awareness .

We live in a world full of predators ,be they individuals, terrorist groups or governments. There are a large number of evil people in our society who, for entirely selfish reasons, will take it upon them selves to bash your head in. They have no regard for your life, your family or your possessions. They will kill you for the watch on your arm, blow up the bus your wife is traveling in or rape your daughter in front of your very eyes.... and do it with as much afterthought as the'd give to eating a hamburger.

There are times when we have no control over events; the victims caught in the Twin Towers tragedy had no chance what's so ever. There are however, times when we do have a chance, where we don'thave to be a victim..

But this depends on our mind set and willingness to fight back. Most 20th century humans, are extremely reluctant to harm another person, even when that person has taken clearly overt hostile actions towards them. There are various cultural reasons for this, one of which is simply the disbelief that another person would really want to hurt them.

Like most prudent,reasonable and caring men, I abhor violence and that's how it should be, but when it's thrust upon you.. fight back! Fight back for all you are worth! Fight with your hands, your nails, your teeth your pistol,..what ever it takes. Your very survival may depend on it.

NEVER EVER BE A VICTIM!

There are those that advocate nonresistance. They would rather give up their wallet or car to "avoid trouble". Perhaps I should ask where they would draw the line. What would they say when the thugs demand their wife or children, or house or even their nation? It's not an issue of material property, it's way more than that. Free men are not slaves to oppressors or aggressors of any sort. We don't fight for our wallets (tho they be empty) or our cars (even when insured) but rather for ourfreedom.

R.Heinlein wrote:"The price of freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle anywhere, anytime and with utter recklessness"

And that about sums it up..

Thanks Gabe.