Soundproofing.

[ilikekicks]

Heres the issue I have.

 

I bought an OLD farmhouse. Its 150 years old. It has Horse Hair basecoat and Paris covered walls.

 

I have a recording studio.

 

I need something that pliable that I can put between the walls to stop sound and vibration.

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

[Shafted]

Raw wool.

[ilikekicks]

Raw wool.

 

Might be a good idea. Strange as it might be, Theres a sheep farm down the road.. I'll have to find out what he wants for the amount I would need.

 

Heres what its like right now. One of my relatives whom owned the property 40 years ago put up paneling over the plaster. They not only used nails but glue as well. The plaster took water damage behind the paneling so it really wasnt that noticable. Its all lead based paint. The wife went and snagged a small pail of mud and started patching all the nail holes.. Im just going to rip it all out, re-do the Lattice and go with fresh plaster. I have all the supplies and tools ( and skill ) to do it. Its a small 15x12 room shes going to use as an office or play room for herself. Going to run 10/3 electric to GFI's while I have it all ripped apart as a lot of it on that side of the house is still on the old tube-and-tie setup.. ceramic standoffs with exposed wires.. not good!

 

I need to rip out that crappy lamanent flooring and see how teh real wood is underneath it. It sounds/feels solid.

 

Whats really impressive is the 2x4's are real! They really measure 2inches by 4 inches. Tells how old the place really is

[Shafted]

It is considered to be THE best acoustic insulation for speaker cabinets.

[meganiwish]

My mum's hearing aids.  They don't appear to convey any unwanted sound.

[heels59]

Now you're getting to part of what i do for a living. I need a bit more info, what are you trying to accomplish? Are recording in this room? Trying to keep sound out or in?

[ilikekicks]

Now you're getting to part of what i do for a living. I need a bit more info, what are you trying to accomplish? Are recording in this room? Trying to keep sound out or in?

 

Recording room is already done and insulated pretty well. The room Im working on is on the second floor of the house. The studio itself has higher then normal ( 12foot ) ceiling. Where I connected it to the house, the wall with the angle ( from the roof ) receives some sound and when I play loud or percussive items, it goes right through that wall.

 

The wall immediately below the one in question had 2 separate sections of slate with foam in between them installed. The Slate sits directly on a foundation. I would to the same in this situation but the overall weight from the slate panels ( 4100lbs each ) wont stay secure up that high.

 

The good parts : Theres NO wiring going through wither of the walls Im replacing. Somebody was going to install and outlet, but its not needed anymore. Its all being re-done in lattice/basecoat/finishcoat, regular plaster so it will offer quite a bit of sound supression. I want to insulate the wall itself between the addition I put on ( the studio ) and the room itself behind the lattice boards.

 

I was thinking that some form of rubberized and expanding compound might work.

 

The studio itself has hit +115db before ( measured it center-room ). Theres 4 JBL JXR118's and 4 JBL JXR115's all with QSC amps bridged for them. The receive signal from a DBX Driverack ( like a crossover ) thats connected to an old Carvin422 24channel board.

 

Kind of a bit much for a 24x32foot room with a pair of 2x2 vents and 1 6x10 door ( Theres an Eng. room thats windowed/doored off to the side. ).

[Heelster]

Oh - the paneling over the plaster fiasco - - been there - done that.

 

Had that in my Cinci house. They also didn't vent the dryer they put in the room, which meant all that plaster was falling apart be hind the paneling. I opted to take it all out - yuck.

 

Owens-corning makes pink fiberglas insulation looking stuff specifically for acoustic sounded deadening, but I don't believe that will be enough, but it might help.

 

I have a couple friends who have done some similar things. I'll see if they have any low cost suggestions.

[heels59]

Wow, you’re not going to get those kind of levels down to inaudible. 20/20 hindsight, maybe the studio should have gone out behind the barn. First a caveat about info you may find on the internet, if it is based on a one-number STC (Speech Transmission Coefficient)  rating, it is intended for apartment or motel walls and doesn’t quite apply to your situation. STC is an average of 500, 1000, and 2000 hz, you need to design for low frequencies and the mids/highs will take care of themselves. The basic concept is two massive impervious panels not connected to each other and separated by as much airspace as practical. The slate-foam-slate thing you mentioned sounds very interesting. The wall panel on the noise source side will move some, the heavier it is the less it will move. It’s very important that its movement is not mechanically coupled to the other panel by framing, plumbing, etc. The air between the panels must compress to not transmit the panel movement. An inch or two of airspace is a very tight coupling - not good. Think about two sheets of plywood or drywall an inch apart - you can’t move one without the other moving as well. You want at least a foot of separation, two feet is much better. The structural framing members supporting these panels can occupy the space between, but they must be independent of each other and not linked in any way. Obviously they share the same earth and likely the same foundation, It’s great if they aren’t coupled at the sides or top, but usually some form of closure of the space is needed. Ideally a shell inside a shell is best, but in a retrofit you have to work with what you have. Filling the space with some form of fuzz will make only a small difference, maybe 3 dB, and then only at mid and high frequencies. I certainly wouldn’t spend much money on anything fancy. If any holes for outlets, plumbing, etc., need to be made, seal them really tight. There is a lot of pressure trapped between the walls and it would love to squirt out a little hole. In an old house, that pressure may also want to escape through floor joist spaces between floors, since they’re typically open to the walls. Sound leakage could show up at the opposite end of the house. Finally be aware of flanking paths such as open windows that can ruin an otherwise good barrier. If I followed your description, the top few feet of the studio common wall back the second floor room in question. It may be easiest to add a bulkhead inside the studio from 8 feet (or the top of the slate) up to the ceiling. Use 2 or 3 sheets of drywall for mass. Perhaps it could be angled in to add airspace volume behind it. Anything that breaks up flat parallel planes also helps the studio acoustics as well. Hope this helps.  

[Shafted]

The easiest, but the most expensive route would be to use anechoic foam wedges all over walls in an alternating pattern.

 

I do have extensive professional experience with anechoic foam. I used to work in an anechoic room for many years.

[heels59]

Don't confuse absorption with transmission loss. 99% absorption is equivalent to a transmission loss of only 20 dB. What you didn't see behind the wedges was the poured in place concrete.

[Shafted]

Did I mention under the wedges are 2 inch thick fiberglass battens over a perforated steel wall.

[ilikekicks]

Heels59 : Half of that wall is already shielded. Its the top half that is of concern. Normal playing/recording or practice usually doesnt hit 0db. We keep it down. Some Amps for recording though.. they NEED to be cranked in order to get the sound desired, thus why I really hate Marshals and prefer Boogies or Laney. They dont need the volume/power to the Plates to give out awesome tone that is recordable.

 

Im going to go with another piece of slate. I hate doing this but Im going to cut 2 holes in the new floor and post-hole down 18 foot. 2 2-inch boxed steel beams are going to be inserted and will support the top part of the wall. I need to channel out the roof though.

 

The reason Im Doing this is because that wall is sooo bad.. The Studs are rotted and in order to get rid of all the old electrical, I have to dig it all out. In the process, Im adding a storage area above the studio and just extending the houses roof over the whole addition. It sounds weird but.. it will work. This will give me 3 foot of dead space up there and I will be able to angle the backside of the wall. towards the top of the room and allow a good area of insulation to be placed.

 

The reason its a real problem is Ive been a night owl as of late. Harvest is done and I can stay up later then normal. The wife on the other hand.. needs sleep for work.

[dww]

Years ago I did a bit of work for GEC at the telephone building in Newbury, in the basement was a sound proof room the inside was covered with the sound proof wedges. Boy it was really weid being in there, the only thing you can hear is your own body noise, heart etc.

[at9]

There's a big difference between a sound proof room and an anechoic chamber. DWW is presumably referring to the latter. Being inside one is totally weird - I went in the one at the BBC's research labs once many years ago. Making music of any kind in one must be well nigh impossible as the musicians can't hear any reflections off the walls. I suspect that an anechoic chamber will also be pretty much soundproof but a soundproof room will not be anechoic.

[dww]

I think you are correct Mr at9, the room was more like a chamber. I don't know what is was used for but once inside and the door closed you seemed to get a sort of numb feeling, totally on your own. Very strange sensation, and of course it was totally dark as well.

[Shafted]

The anechoic room I used to work in provided 70dB of sound isolation, so yes, it is soundproof as well.

[at9]

A friend used to do high end professional audio installations in the 1980s. He told me of a specialist rock music recording suite which had (I think) Westlake monitors which were claimed to do 140dBA at the mixing position. This is threshold of death stuff, even for rock balancers who've been deaf for years. This capability had to be verified using an SPL meter. Nobody was volunteering to be inside the room at that sort of loudness so they used the peak hold function on the meter. They put on a tape and got out. Outside the "soundproof" door it was still subjectively quite loud. The spec was met.

[heels59]

It sounds like you have it well under control. Do what you need to get the mass safely in place. 

 

You can also gain some isolation by putting the guitar amp or even just the speaker in some form of sound container. Box out a small closet with lots of mass and a tight weatherstripped door, and lots of fuzz inside which doesn't help for sound escaping but absorbs the boxy internal acoustics of the closet. Record the guitar dry and you can run it back through the amp and play with sounds and effects. If you need to hear it loud & live for playing inspiration or for feedback, then you'll have to be there with the speaker. Or get a 5 watt boutique amp that gets the sounds at reasonable volume.

[ilikekicks]

Couple things..

 

 

 

 

You can also gain some isolation by putting the guitar amp or even just the speaker in some form of sound container.

 

But it will have a negated effect on the overall sound. By using a larger room, the sound can expand. My FAVORITE place I have ever recorded was an old Marble Basilica ( Catholic Church ). It was HUGE and have a natural reverb that came out on tape. No springs or digital effects needed at all.

 

 

 

Box out a small closet with lots of mass and a tight weatherstripped door, and lots of fuzz inside which doesn't help for sound escaping but absorbs the boxy internal acoustics of the closet.

 

Again, Im trying to avoid after captured sounds. The more natural it is, the better it will always be.

 

 

 

Record the guitar dry and you can run it back through the amp and play with sounds and effects.

 

I usually do several takes to get the sound I want, then record it direct. Mixing effects afterwards never sounds right to me or many of the people I have worked with. It also hurts live presentation of the same material as you cannot replicate it without dragging along all kinds of gear.

 

 

 

If you need to hear it loud & live for playing inspiration or for feedback, then you'll have to be there with the speaker. Or get a 5 watt boutique amp that gets the sounds at reasonable volume.

 

If I could find a 5watt amp that actually sounded decent, I would be VERY happy. The only ' low watt ' amp I have ever used that I can say sounded good was an old Fender Bassman. Good luck finding one today thats still in one piece and affordable . It wouldnt work for what Im presently doing as its designed for the wrong kind of tone that what Im using.

 

Blackstar came out with a low-watt amp and I tried 6 or 7 of them at a local dealer. They didnt have the sound I wanted.

 

What I am considering is taking one of my 50/50 Boogie rack mounted power amps and modifying it. Make it a 25watt power amp and Using my older tri-axis preamp with it into a cab with a pair of vintage 30 celestians. I usually have my cabs loaded with Greenbacks or EV full range.

 

Basically.. this is what it sounds like , upstairs, in her ' office ' at 1-2am in the morning..

 

http://s233.photobucket.com/user/fridgidwench/media/MV/maiden_zps081ab420.mp4.html

[heels59]

Basically.. this is what it sounds like , upstairs, in her ' office ' at 1-2am in the morning..

 

http://s233.photobucket.com/user/fridgidwench/media/MV/maiden_zps081ab420.mp4.html

 

Wow, that's pretty much full range sound, actually sounds like more high frequency getting through than low frequency. Typically that's the result of a decent barrier with one or more small holes in it, which is an acoustic high-pass filter.

 

I agree that my suggestions were all some form of compromise. It was just a thought that they may be a better compromise than recording over the middle of the day when all good musicians should be fast asleep. :>)

[Guest]

I pulled off my paneling and had spray foam insulation blown in. I never put anything back up

[elk4712]

What about having a custom amp built ? It will probably be cheaper than chasing down a working Fender. Have a look at http://sound.westhost.com/index2.html . He´s built several class a amps worth looking at. I´ve built 2 myself and the guys who own them have blown up more than one speaker with 2x 5 Watts. Distortion is not an issue with a well built class a and if you are really into it use tubes instead of transistors. I haven´t used tubes so far because of the additional transformers needed but I was told that you get even better results. If you just want too demolish your house have look at project 117 but for your purpose maybe project 70 might be the best, at least everyone else could get a good night of sleep . :-)

[ilikekicks]

Solution is already in the works.

 

Elk.. I could build an amp but I already have enough of them. I'm not into ' Fender ' products at all anymore. Too much cash for nothing more then a name. Compared to others, they lack varieties of tones. They have one sound.. ' thin '.

 

Slate panels were put in and Im working on rebuilding the damaged wall. From the tests Ive done, the levels reach all of 45db upstairs, not too bad compared to what they were.