Saddam Captured!

[unknown]

By now you must have seen it all over the net. It's about time. One down, one to go.

[hhpumps]

now if they will just do away with him....and don't shot him either, that is to quick of a way to end him..

[mk4625]

I don't believe in the death penalty, not even for Saddam. Hitler played by Sir Alec Guinness said of his enemies "They wanted to see me naked in a cage". That might be an idea.

[Dr. Shoe]

Now perhaps the US might withdraw from the region and let everybody get on with running their own countries!

The chances of that are very great.....

.....not!

[Firefox]

I don't see what difference the capture of Saddam is going to make to the situation. They say violence will continue anyway. And the people who are baying for his execution, please realise you are no better than him. Violence causes more violence, matyrdom is the catalyst for hell. When they ever going to learn that executions or recrimination solve nothing?

[j-turbo2002]

Now perhaps the US might withdraw from the region and let everybody get on with running their own countries!

The chances of that are very great.....

.....not!

Now don’t you worry, we will let the Iraqis run their own country (in fact, we already are) but it is going to take time.

Yes Dr. Shoe, time – it takes a lot of time to accomplish great things in this world.

We only have one problem in this world and that is we have people like you in this world who want everything done RIGHT NOW.

I am serious, people in this world have truly forgotten about how long it truly takes to accomplish good things. It is easy to see why most people like you have this lame attitude because we live in a world of fast food, one hour photo labs, etc.

[j-turbo2002]

I don't see what difference the capture of Saddam is going to make to the situation. They say violence will continue anyway.

How do you know this? What if it does make the situation? What if the violence stops? Then what are you going to tell people?

And the people who are baying for his execution, please realise you are no better than him. Violence causes more violence, matyrdom is the catalyst for hell. When they ever going to learn that executions or recrimination solve nothing?

I am curious as to where you are getting all of this information from? What? Violence causes more violence; martyrdom is the catalyst for hell? Executions or recrimination solve nothing? What on earth are you talking about? Like I said before, I am curious as to where you are getting all of this information from?

[Firefox]

I wrote the above, not Dr Shoe. Where do I get the information from? Observation and experience of human behaviour over a period of 30 years. If you care to examine the situation in Palestine/Israel or Northern Ireland, or any other of the numerous troubled areas, it will become clear that violence causes violence. If you disagree with that then I'll be interested to hear your detailed analysis of what does actually cause the perpetuation of killings through the years. Fact: If Saddam is executed, there will be recrimination causing increased deaths among your troops and innocent civilians, not only in Iraq but elsewhere. Laying aside any other deeper argument, it will save life to let him reside in prison till he dies of natural causes.

[j-turbo2002]

I wrote the above, not Dr Shoe.

Whoops! Sorry!

Where do I get the information from? Observation and experience of human behaviour over a period of 30 years.

So what? This does not make you an expert on anything.

I to have observed human behavior for many years yet, I am not an expert.

If you care to examine the situation in Palestine/Israel or Northern Ireland, or any other of the numerous troubled areas, it will become clear that violence causes violence. If you disagree with that then I'll be interested to hear your detailed analysis of what does actually cause the perpetuation of killings through the years.

I have looked at both of these situations in detail and the “violence causes violence” idea does not come into play here. These two areas are still at war because both sides have relied on a lot of worthless dialogue and failed negotiations. Therefore, the problems were never solved and therefore the war continues. Violence causes violence - nonsense!

Fact: If Saddam is executed, there will be recrimination causing increased deaths among your troops and innocent civilians, not only in Iraq but elsewhere. Laying aside any other deeper argument, it will save life to let him reside in prison till he dies of natural causes.

Fact? This is not a fact! You never answered my origional question - how do you know all of this? You must have a really good crystal ball to look into.

Firefox, I hate to tell you this but at this time it is way too early to be making statements like this and then having the nerve to say that they are fact which is wrong.

[new_look]

christ this is like playschool

[JeffM]

j-turbo2002 You cant have one one foot either side of the fence if its made of barbed wire. So where do you stand on this? Seems to me you dispute what others are saying without giving any proof of what you imply, that they are wrong and you are right. How do you know you are right? In the Vietnam war there was a saying that the fastest way to convert a South Vietnamese to a VC was to kill his brother who was already a VC. Terrorist groups in Indonesia have repeatedly said that if the USA GB or Australia retaliates for the Bali bombings they will kill even more westerners. Sure we can turn a blind eye toward news paper reports and TV reports, but then where do we (you) get info from that says there will be no retaliation? Jeff

[j-turbo2002]

christ this is like playschool

Well........I have to agree with you........I am having fun. :drinking:

[j-turbo2002]

You cant have one one foot either side of the fence if its made of barbed wire.

No way! Yes, you can indeed be on both sides of the fence my friend – no matter what material it is made out of. I know that this does not make any sense to you right now but believe me it is true. Why is it true? Well in order to see why it is true you need to have studied the art of negotiating in detail. Anyone who has done so like I have will be able to see where I am coming from. I would be glad to give you a detailed course on negotiating but unfortunately I am a very busy person like the rest of us and I do not have the time. However, I can point you to a good starting point and tell you to read the books on negotiating by Roger Dawson. Since the art of negotiating is a very complex topic, Dawson’s books are a very good place to start.

So where do you stand on this?

I think that Saddam should be put on trial in Europe and not Iraq. I am a staunch supporter of the Death Penalty but in this case I think that putting him on trial in Iraq and executing him would just be way to easy. For him, the Death Penalty would just be a cheap ticket out from the horrible crimes that he has committed. He needs to be tried in Europe so that everyone can see what a horrible tyrant he was. The trial will be very interesting – it will be interesting to see what facts come out during the trial. Also, France, Germany, and Russia really need to see what fools they were supporting him for all of those years while hundreds and thousands of his own people died at his hand. The U.S. supported him at one time during the Iran/Iraq War but, instead, the U.S. later found out that he would stab it (the U.S.) in the back.

Seems to me you dispute what others are saying without giving any proof of what you imply, that they are wrong and you are right. How do you know you are right?

I did too give indication as to what I implied. You need to go back and re-read what I posted earlier. I have never said that I am right. I just thought that it was a little bullheaded of Firefox to write his “FACT” about Saddam when the future is not yet known. The truth of the matter is that we do not know what in the hell is going to happen until it happens. Then, later on, we have to look back at history to see what decisions worked and what decisions did not work. It is that simple.

[Bubba136]

All y'all are wrong. Armys are made to kill people and break things. There will never be lasting peace until one party ups and beats the other into submission so badly that there isn't any other place to turn to except to surrender and play by the winner's rulers. You have to excuse Dr. Shoe. He means well.....but, it's his pacificism connects directly from Lord Neville Chamberlain.

[j-turbo2002]

Just to add one more interesting note: I find it interesting that before Saddam was captured France, Germany, and Russia were all complaining about being banned from bidding on contracts to rebuild Iraq that are going to be largely funded by the hardworking U.S. taxpayers. I am serious; they cried and whined about being left out. They all complained about the debt that Iraq owed them. Then the U.S. 4th Infantry Division (I have to give credit where credit is due) captured Saddam and France, Germany, and Russia became quiet all at once about being left out of the bidding. Today, Germany announced without hesitation that it would start forgiving some of the debt that Iraq owes it and France and Russian might soon follow. I wonder what these countries are hiding. Could it be that Saddam might tell the U.S. something about these countries that they (France, Germany, and Russia) don’t want the U.S. to know? We will have to wait and see what happens.....................

[j-turbo2002]

Sorry, I forgot to answer the following question:

Sure we can turn a blind eye toward news paper reports and TV reports, but then where do we (you) get info from that says there will be no retaliation?

For the answer to this question you have to look back at history and the name Bin Laden should come to mind.

I believe that Bin Laden is dead. I really do believe that his body temperature suddenly increased to 2000 degrees F back in the Tora Bora region of Afghanistan.

Back then we heard the same worthless rhetoric from Al-Qaeda about how there was going to be so much retaliation and martydom and the killing of western people and innocent civilians, etc.

But so far, none of this has happened. There have been no attacks commited against the U.S., GB, or Aus, etc. Look at Al-Qaeda, they have been reduced to to nothing more than one or two worthless pieces of trash running around trying to find an aljazeera TV reporter so that they can hand them a 5-year-old tape of Bin Laden so that it can be aired for 5 seconds of fame. These people are finished! They're days are numbered. They are now the hunted and it will only be a matter of time before they are removed from the face of the earth.

[Anita C.]

IF, and that is one very big "IF", Osama Bin Laden is still above ground and breathing he should be one extremely nervous terrorist. I am inclined to believe he is below ground. My reasoning is he has been on dialysis for a very, very long time, quite probably due to the hedonistic :drinking: lifestyle he had lead for so many years before he embraced Allah and the Muslim faith. Yes, Osama was a swinger/jet-setter who indulged in sex, drugs, women, liquor and all the other privies of wealth. When his kidneys died he found Allah - go figure. With his health in rapid decline his grey matter is beginning to fail. Even IF he is ill alive he probably has the mental wherewithall of a potted plant. How the world handles Maddass Hussein will have an impact upon terrorism. If justice is swift and forthcoming this could be a great deterrent. If the world has a huge pissing contest as to Whom gets to do What to Maddass and it goes on and on and on (as it probably will) it becomes an ongoing bad joke wasting massive amounts of time, manpower and money. Before it's all over it will cost over $100 million! I'm sure that money could go a long way to rebuilding the country! My son is in the Army (101st). He says that the guy who found Saddam shoulda done the People of the World a huge favor and performed a 8mm frontal lobotomy (that's a shot in the head). BANG! Done . . . over . . . end of story. Cost? A 8mm shell is less than a buck. I'm inclined to agree. The armies of the world all agree on this-off the record, of course. When and IF Osama is found it will quite likely be a different story. On this also I am inclined to agree. "The needs of many outweigh the needs of a few," Marx . . . Karl-not Groucho. bang . . .

[mk4625]

A 8mm shell is less than a buck.

Actually that's 5.56 mm.

[xaphod]

point 1 .... well done the Yanks. point 2 .... Yanks go galumphing in with a totally unsubtle media splash ! Have the Yanks not learnt a thing about mentality and values of the people of Islam? Despite the fact there is overwhelming evidence for Saddam being a pretty gross abuser of Human Rights, Islamics will be totally offended with the image of a Yank poking around for a DNA swab in the mouth of a member of the faith. Over everything else, this image will crystalise anti-western feeling for tens of years .... and the Yanks were stupid enough to allow it to be broadcast ! Does not anyone there understand the middle and far-eastern concept of 'saving face'? ..... you f*****g stupid idiots. To coin a Yank phrase "that's another fine mess you've gotten us into" Xa

[Trolldeg]

point 1 .... well done the Yanks.

point 2 .... Yanks go galumphing in with a totally unsubtle media splash !

Have the Yanks not learnt a thing about mentality and values of the people of Islam? Despite the fact there is overwhelming evidence for Saddam being a pretty gross abuser of Human Rights, Islamics will be totally offended with the image of a Yank poking around for a DNA swab in the mouth of a member of the faith.

Over everything else, this image will crystalise anti-western feeling for tens of years .... and the Yanks were stupid enough to allow it to be broadcast !

Does not anyone there understand the middle and far-eastern concept of 'saving face'? ..... you f*****g stupid idiots.

To coin a Yank phrase "that's another fine mess you've gotten us into"

Xa

word!

[j-turbo2002]

point 1 .... well done the Yanks.

point 2 .... Yanks go galumphing in with a totally unsubtle media splash !

Have the Yanks not learnt a thing about mentality and values of the people of Islam? Despite the fact there is overwhelming evidence for Saddam being a pretty gross abuser of Human Rights, Islamics will be totally offended with the image of a Yank poking around for a DNA swab in the mouth of a member of the faith.

Over everything else, this image will crystalise anti-western feeling for tens of years .... and the Yanks were stupid enough to allow it to be broadcast !

Does not anyone there understand the middle and far-eastern concept of 'saving face'? ..... you f*****g stupid idiots.

To coin a Yank phrase "that's another fine mess you've gotten us into"

Xa

Yes, the U.S. does know a lot about Islam. Unfortunately the only person who does not know anything about Islam here in this forum is you. Why? The answer is pretty simple.

The concept of "saving face" is primarily a Chinese concept that really has not infiltrated the Islamic society as much as you want to think so. Now, I am not implying that the concept of "saving face" has not infiltrated Islamic society at all because it has however; the percentile of those Muslims who believe in the concept is a very, very small percentile (I wish that I could give you a number). Besides, the Muslims that do believe in this concept are of far eastern decent. You really do not see a whole lot of this concept being taken up in the Middle East.

How do I know all of this information, you might ask? Well, you need to read the following books:

1) A History of the Arab Peoples by Albert Hourani

2) Encyclopedia of the World’s Religions. Edited by R.C. Zaehner

Oops, I forgot to add the point the following point. The reason why I added the book about the worlds religions is for the simple fact that when you look at the concept of "saving face" with what is written in the Koran there are some issues that arise - hence, the small majority of muslims who believe in the concept. That is about as simple as I can put it without having to go through a long detailed explanation as to why. Time is always a limiting factor.

[Anita C.]

Did we "Yanks" pull a faux pas? A blunder? Gee- I was under the conception that we "Yanks": 1) Caught a mass-murderer. 2) Hauled his mangy-ass out of a cellar and whiole doing so- 3) Secured documents mentioning other involved personnell. Near as I can figure the only thing we "Yanks" did wrong was not attempting to save the rest of the world a lot of time, money and effort by plugging him on the spot. BANG! DEAD! PLANT HIM-Film at 7. COST? A 9mm round maybe an autopsy and a funeral and a urnal for his headstone . . . End Of Story. Now, because Saddam was "captured", the people of the world get to spend giga-millions of dollars, yen, euros, pesos, rupies, rubles etc. on protecting, feeding, transporting, housing Saddam, not to mention the legal expenses, to "Bring him to justice". . . AND we all get to see him giving us all attitude? Fabulous. Couldn't the money that will now be allocated to this World Wide Dog & Pony show have been put to much better use elsewhere? ANYWHERE? Like rebuilding Iraq? Feeding the hungry? Repairing the affected cities? As far as Saving Face , I'm very lost here . . . didn't the Iraqis tear down Saddams' statue? Celebrate WILDLY when the news of his capture broke? Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the only ones who might hold us "Yanks" in contempt is Al Qaida/Taliban? Sorry- I really don't care what these terrorist bastards think, feel or believe in and as a sidebar if Saddam would have been "terminated" this might have put a thought in their lil' terrorists heads that the "Yanks" aren't interested in capture, keep and trial of them and hopefully this will be a deterent. That's only my humble opinion . . . I could be wrong. After all I am just a "Yank". . . with a Son in the 101st! Can I rip on the French and the Germans ratbastards now? Please? Pretty please?

[Dr. Shoe]

Firstly, I have to say that I am not a pacifist. My only argument was that I knew that there were no WMD in Iraq and no terrorist training cells there either- as I write I note that if either has been found because if they had it would have been all over the news. Therefore, I felt that a war with Iraq was not justified.

Had the reason for the war had been the catalogue of human rights abuses perpetrated by the Ba'Ath regime then perhaps I might have been more supportive. But this is not to say that I support the war in retrospect.

Because:

There are a couple of issues that I have with that idea: Mugabe and Gaddafi. Well, there is no oil in Zimbabwe and Gaddafi is intelligent enough to allow western companies to develop the Lybian oil fields.

Have you noticed that it seems that American troops are the target of most of the terrorist attacks?

My theory is that the Americans have a policy of no fraternisation (I could be wrong but that's how it seems), they sit in a tank on a street corner in dark glasses pretending that despite what the President says they are a conquering army, didn't they learn anything in Vietnam? The British in Basra in comparison play football (soccer) with the locals, give sweets to the kids, never wear dark glasses when talking to the locals (MOD has a rule about that) and walk everywhere in minimal body armour and berets and not helmets. If you were Iraqi, who would you trust the most?

I doubt whether the Moslem community is particularly bothered about the way that the Americans parade sadass around because he lead (led?) a secular government and committed the cardinal sin of Employing at least one Christian in a key government role. I doubt that there will be too many tears shed over his capture and I think that the next few weeks will see the locals cooperating far more with the Americans now that there is absolutely no prospect of him returning to power, however, IMHO the US military should look at the idea of lightening up a little!

BTW, The concept of saving face is Japanese and not Chinese though both the Chinese and Arabic customs hold great store in dignity and reputation to a degree that we would find archaic or old fashioned at the very least, but I doubt that being pictured having a mouth swab would do much to upset anyone.

So what do we do with him?

If we were to try him in an International Court of Human Rights (giving him the justice he denied his prisoners) then the Moslem minority who openly criticise western culture would rail against this and use it to whip up a great deal of Anti-Western feeling and flag burning. The same if he was just shot out of hand, he would be held up as some kind of martyr. If he was just handed over to the Iraqi people then there are some that would say that what they would do to him would be inhuman(!). It would solve a lot of problems if he was shot trying to escape on his way to be tried in an Iraqi court by a tribunal of representatives from a selection of Moslem countries under Moslem law. That way everyone's happy.

[j-turbo2002]

My theory is that the Americans have a policy of no fraternisation (I could be wrong but that's how it seems), they sit in a tank on a street corner in dark glasses pretending that despite what the President says they are a conquering army, didn't they learn anything in Vietnam? The British in Basra in comparison play football (soccer) with the locals, give sweets to the kids, never wear dark glasses when talking to the locals (MOD has a rule about that) and walk everywhere in minimal body armour and berets and not helmets. If you were Iraqi, who would you trust the most?

You are wrong. The Americans are fraternizing with the Iraqi people by doing almost the same things that the Brittish are. You never hear about these things because the anti-American Brittish media never tells its readers and listeners about these issues. All that they do is focus on the negative.

BTW, The concept of saving face is Japanese and not Chinese though both the Chinese and Arabic customs hold great store in dignity and reputation to a degree that we would find archaic or old fashioned at the very least, but I doubt that being pictured having a mouth swab would do much to upset anyone.

No! It is in fact a Chinese belief. Sun-Tzu was the first one to write about it. Have you ever read "The Art of War"? I was like you at one time and thought that it came from the Japanese but that is wrong. The Chinese were the ones who introduced the belief to the Japanese. The History Channel (here in America) aired an excellent documentary some time ago on these ancient Chinese customs and beliefs.

***EDIT***

According to the 1974 edition of Encyclopaedia Britannica, the Chinese General Sun-Tzu wrote "The Art of War" during the Spring and Autumn Dynastic Period of China (c. 722 - 481 B.C.).

Japan did not become unified as a nation until c. 250 A.D.

You do the math.

[Firefox]

The British run the area of the country that hated Saddam, while the Americans police Saddam's own back yard so it's not a fair comparison. Iraq so it seems is about three separate nations rolled into one. Whatever puppet democracy the USA tries to install, they'll most likely all end up fighting civil wars unless they are very fourtunate.

[j-turbo2002]

The British run the area of the country that hated Saddam, while the Americans police Saddam's own back yard so it's not a fair comparison. Iraq so it seems is about three separate nations rolled into one.

So what? This means absolutely nothing. Yes, it is indeed a fair comparison because the whole country of Iraq hated Saddam. You cannot just narrow it down to a few regions - that would be unfair. What about the Kurds in the north of Iraq who were gassed by Saddam? That area is not run by the British. Yes, there are Saddam supporters in the entire country of Iraq however, those who hated Saddam in the country greatly outnumber those who supported him.

Whatever puppet democracy the USA tries to install, they'll most likely all end up fighting civil wars unless they are very fourtunate.

These people will not fight one another because we will show them how to live with one another. We know a lot about teaching people how to live with one another (of different races and cultures) after it has gone to war with itself. Remember, the U.S. has gone through many civil wars. We will teach the Iraqis how to accoplish this - no matter the cost. Remember, we Americans are very persistent people and we won't give up until the job is done. If I were you I would not worry about the puppet democracy. Whatever democracy we HELP install will be much better than what currently resides in GB today.

[Bubba136]

Anita C wrote:

I find it interesting that before Saddam was captured France, Germany, and Russia were all complaining about being banned from bidding on contracts to rebuild Iraq that are going to be largely funded by the hardworking U.S. taxpayers. I am serious; they cried and whined about being left out. They all complained about the debt that Iraq owed them.

As the press has reported, Former American Secretary of State James A. Baker's principle mission in visiting and France, Germany was to gain these hold out's support and participation in rebuilding Iraq. I wish I could have seen the look on the faces of the French Prime Minsister and Germans Chancellor when he showed them the pictures and receipts for payments Saddam made to both these governments for illicit deals as well as some personal bank statements from some of those supersecret numbered Swiss bank accounts pointing directly guys in these governments, "at the highest ranks." Ok, let's all sing together, now. "Let's all sing like the birdies sing, tweet, tweet tweet, tweet! Oh, how persuasive James Baker can be -- especially Jimmy Baker using his little camera phone. LOL

[xaphod]

As I said, the Yanks did good by finding Saddam "hauling his ass out of a hole" etc ....

BUT instead of taking a moment to think how best to play the 'good hand' they had been dealt, they seemed to get on the big bullhorn and start shouting how smart they were .... not cool.

As regards my knowledge of Moslem people, admitedly mostly Pakistani engineers .... I have known a few of these in my time and, although not a student of Islam, I have got to know a little of how their minds work. I am sure that the 'lack of respect' shown to the body of a Moslem on the world-wide media would not go down at all well.

As regards the desecration of the statue of Saddam, there is one fundamental difference between that and the 'desecration' of Saddam by a man poking around in his mouth. The latter was done by an infidel ..... HUGE difference.

Maybe I'm wrong on all this, but I suspect that there's a whole load of 'bad stuff' still to come our way. Time will tell.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

About the idea of the best thing being a bullet .... I just wonder if Saddam hadn't been thinking about fighting it out. I suspect he's canny enough to know that he's more value as a living martyr than a dead one. For how many years were people chanting 'free Nelson Mandela' ?

If he had 'stepped in the way of a bullet', I wonder how the media would have displayed the corpse. The image that springs to mind is the one of Mussolini, his girlfriend and a henchman, suspended upside-down after such an 'accident'. That image has lasted 60 years, about the longevity I give for the Saddam DNA swab in Islamic minds.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just been thinking about my dealings with some Moslem engineers in my time. There have been a few occasions where it has been expedient for me to offer a 'way out' of a technical confrontation (are you right or am I ?) without the other guy 'losing face'. Some of the arguments that were used were techicnically debatable, but I didn't mind so long as he got to a working solution.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm still waiting to see how the USA will treat Saddam. The words 'Guantanamo Bay' and 'habeas corpus' are still in the back of my mind.

Xa

[j-turbo2002]

Xaphod, Well..........where do I begin? First of all, the people at the Pentagon and in the Bush Administration know what they are doing. I don't know if you know this but the Pentagon plans for conficts and situations like this on a daily basis. They have experts on how to deal with these situations who are much more knowledgeable than both you and I combined. If the idea of "saving face" were that damn important they would not have shown his face on television. However, they did show his face on television and so it must not be that damn improtant at all. Like I have already mentioned - very few Muslims believe in that tradition. Go back and read my earlier posting on that issue. As to your experience with Muslim engineers........... Big deal? You cannot do this! You cannot take what a small percentile of people believe in and automatically apply it to the rest as a whole. That is extremely unfair and insulting to Muslims! That is almost like telling someone else that since this person has this type/shape of nose they must all be Jewish - which is both wrong and insulting. I don't know if you know me but I am a mechanical engineer and I used to be in the oil business. I used to do a lot of traveling and I still have many friends and colleagues in the Middle East (Saudi Arabia, Qatar, etc.) and most of the Muslim engineers that I know, along with their families, really do not believe in that nonsense of "saving face" at all. **EDIT** I remember a discussion that I had with one of my friends in the Middle East one time. I remember him telling me that the one thing that upset him the most was the fact that some of these losers like Xaphod believe that all Muslims have and believe in the same ideology as the extremists like Bin Laden which is complete and utter B.S. (bullshit). You know............that they want to all live back in the 14th century, etc. What they fail to realize is that most Muslims who live in the area are no different that you or I. Most of them are very modern and down to earth people and you do nothing but insult them when you make false assumptions and generalizations about people.

[Bubba136]

I was going to comment but why waste my breath. Xaphod is wrong. I know it. j-turbo knows it. A lot of people that post her know it. However, if Xaphod want to believe what he says -- so be it. Besides, with him, there is no amount of evidence to large to be ignored. Xaphod is Anti-Bush, Anti-American, anti a lot of other things. Which I don't mind. All opinions are welcome. But, if he were want to hang around those anti'war demostrations, he'd better take a bath, brush his teeth and comb his hair and wear clean clothes or he might just be taken as "one of them."