Fashion, time and convenience

[BoyLegs]

I started a thread comparing the shoe fashions today to other decades. The conversation developed when http://www.hhplace.org/discuss/members/fastfreddy2.html

made this point:

People these days want or expect to live life on a conveyor. They dress for comfort and function, not for (self) style or attraction. Well, not in my understanding of the words..... Calvin Klein under-garments hoisted high above a low waistband hold no attraction for me at all. Loose, grey coloured 'sweat' suits don't look any better when adored with a "designer" or well known brand name emblazened on them. These are clothes that are easy to find, and easy to wear.

It's not that people in Western culture don't have (or can't "make") the time to dress well..... They either can't be bothered (general malaise in our culture) or their energy is concentrated elsewhere. ie. Work.

I have given this some thought. Yes, time is a factor, but it's also the evergreen excuse. "I don't have time" really means "I don't want to."

Meanwhile, I think about all the women I've seen on What Not to Wear (US version), who come on the show and state in some form, "People shouldn't judge me by how I dress." There is a large anti-fashion fashion out there, that says that only shallow people care about how other people dress, or about such matters as elegant shoes. Andrea in The Devil Wears Prada had it, and since the novel was thought to be a roman à clef about Vogue, it is likely Lauren Weisberger herself had it as well.

[HappyFeat]

Recently, I hit thrift stores all over may area and bought about 20 nice suits. My job allows me to dress pretty any way that I wish and I have done everything from dress shirts and trousers, to sweaters, and nice pull over shirts. But this year, I decided to go with suits. The reaction was amazing! People thought that I was the best dresser they ever met. I was floored that something as simple as second hand suits would attract that much attention. But then again, I work in education and though I love my job, educators are the absolute worst dressed profession I have encountered. When I was in college, we used to joke that you could tell the students who had a rough night the night before because they threw on a baggy sweatshirt and a ball cap to wear to class. Today, that's the common way students dress. Last night, I was out in downtown Pittsburgh. It was a Friday night, and lots of people were out for the evening. The main look for women...pony tails, sweat shirts, jeans, flip-flops or sneakers! I won't even mention the guys...IT WAS FRIDAY NIGHT IN THE DOWNTOWN OF A MAJOR US CITY. I know it is Pittsburgh and not New York or Chicago, but for crying out loud, try to put in some effort... Casualness has overtaken the middle class. I agree that there is a backlash against fashion, this whole notion that people should not be judged by appearance. But what people miss is that its not appearance on which you are judged, its class and character. Sloppy people are marginalized, whether they know it or not. This I do not think is wrong. If you don't make an effort to be presentable, nobody except other sloppy people will take you seriously. There is also the myth that dressing nice is expensive. Remember, my fashion statement with second hand (many $5) suits not only got rave reviews, but also I was treated with more respect. None of this has to do with time and/or convenience. It has to do with simply being too lazy to do anything else but make excuses.

[tightsnheels]

Happy feet you sum it up very nicely and I whole heartedly agree. People just don't seem to care anymore about the impression they make. I partly blame the music industry and the way the way the popular performers dress in their music videos. Look at what in this country is the popular videos; Rap artists (I use the term artist loosely) dress just as you describe and their largest audiance are middle class suburban white kids. Look back a little bit into the way back machine and when it was Robert Palmer, the Beetles, Beegees, and Elvis people dressed better. Look at some of the popular shows to see how they influance things Sex in the City is considered the biggest killer of the pantyhose/tights industry and then there are all the so called reality shows...the list goes on and I am rambling.

Anyway thanks again Happy Feet for your astute perception.

T&H

[fastfreddy2]

ANYONE who thinks they are not judged by the way they present themselves, is mistaken.

I used to wear a suit all the time for work, and sometimes socially. I haven't needed to for some years. I had always suspected there was a difference in attitude to my style of dress.

Recently I had to wear a suit for an appointment. I visited a number of shops afterwards. People were noticeably more attentive. An example of this, was me not having to move out of anyone's way, they did the moving.

In this country at least, suit wearers are typically either Technical or Management, so wearing casual clothing is not called "dressing down" without reason.....

Why should we 'dress up'?

Do you, or have you ever met someone who, didn't feel better about themselves after making some effort dressing up to go out?

We are more attractive to others when we make takes some time over our appearance. While little else does it, certainly my wearing suit puts a glint in my wife's eye.

Takes both time and effort though ... Which is in contrast to our increasingly sedentary lifestyle...

...

[thedesigner]

its the men in uniform thing.... mind you, a nurses uniform has the same effect on me (seeing it,not wearing it !) A jacket is as good as a suit i think, but i agree, t shirt and jeans isnt a turn on for most women.

[Nick-65]

Look, I'm a metrosexual But, I'm a hetrosexual and monogoumus and eventhough I am who and what I am it doesn't mean that I don't believe in individual rights. For Too many years male fashion has BEEN STUCK TO THE SAME FOOLISH STEROTYPES WHENTHE GIRLS HAVE HAD ALL OF THE GOOD CLOTHES AND COMFORTABLE SHOES TO WEAR AND WE GUYS GET THE UNCOMFORTABLE,HEAVY, OVERSIZED, AND OUTRIGHT UN-SEXY AND UNCOMFORTABLE CLOTHES, ESPICIALLY IN WARM AND HOT WEATHER CLOTHES TO WEAR, Nick.

[crotchboots-m]

here is another case of someone else wanting to dictate fashion sense to others. why bother? let them wear what they want.

[johnieheel]

Glad I'm not the only one that notices how lazy people dress HappyFeat. Wife and I were out and about Sunday and I was wearing my 4" over knee steve maddens and wife was wearing a pair of her mary janes. Girls with there sloppy dressed husbands and boy friends were realy checking me out and I noticed there eyes always started at my feet and went up with a smile. I hate the way people dress these days in there sneakers and t-shirts and worn out levis. NO CLASS at all. I really felt like an out cast in Walmart but it was a good feeling because I was getting the attention that the boy friend or husband should have been getting. Can you say POWER TRIP? lol!

[roniheels]

I prefer to wear suits or slacks and sport coats especially when I wear my high heels in public. Even though I have never preferred the grunge or ultra casual look, I guess my opinion is that if people don't mind me wearing suits and stiletto heels in public, then if they enjoy the grunge, casual, or ultra baggy look, then let it be. Hopefully one day as all of us are walking down the street at the same time, no one will pay any extra attention to any of us.

[HappyFeat]

Here is a link to an article from today's (May 13, 2008) Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. I was reading this during lunch while heeling today.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08134/881255-314.stm

[tightsnheels]

A very well written and accurite article. If people would only take a moment to look in the mirror or even better to see someone else dressed exactly like themselves. Oh well I guess I'm preaching to the choir aren't I.

T&H

[BoyLegs]

I find a strong undercurrent of anti-fashion out there. It's related, in a way, to pietism -- the same sentiment that causes a lot of whitewashed churches with no stained glass whatsover in Minnesota. The mentality seems to be, "If you're thinking about appearances, then you're obviously not thinking about what's important."

Po Bronson developed "The Seven Habits of Highly Engineered People" (http://www.digitalsurvivors.com/journal/000682.php), one of which is: "They will try hard to maintain the image that they care very little about their image." I don't find this restricted to the science and engineering people, but would generalize it further to people with a lot of college. It's possible we've had too much education for our own good.

[HappyFeat]

Po Bronson developed "The Seven Habits of Highly Engineered People" (http://www.digitalsurvivors.com/journal/000682.php), one of which is: "They will try hard to maintain the image that they care very little about their image." I don't find this restricted to the science and engineering people, but would generalize it further to people with a lot of college. It's possible we've had too much education for our own good.

BoyLegs,

I think you misinterpreted the meaning of "engineered" in this case. I do not believe the author was referring to people with education in the science and engineering disciplines as much as people who are being "socially engineered." Social Engineering is something related to more totalitarian regimes such as the "Cultural Revolution" in China during the 1960's or the rise of the Brown Shirts in Germany during the 1930's. It is an effort to define what it is to be part of a cultural group and reshape the norms and customs of a group to benefit a ruling elite - the Chinese communist party or the National Socialists in the the examples I have given.

However, you are absolutely correct in assuming that there is a backlash against fashion, etc. in the U.S. culture specifically and I do attribute it to social engineering. For example, I once worked with a group of high school students. AT the ice breaker, all of the students were asked, "If you could dress any way that you wanted, who would you dress?" Almost every students said their choice would be jeans and tee-shirt or sweats. I of course said I would wear a tuxedo. (but left out the wonderful 4" strappy sandals that would top off a perfect look.)

The attitude among the students was that anybody who would wear anything else was a snob. Today in the U.S., snobs are called "elitists." Elitist is used as a label to create a mythical "cultural other." This was best demonstrated in the 2004 U.S. election campaign when Kerry was an elitist and Bush was "one of us." Kerry went to Harvard, liked starbucks, and windsurfing at Martha's vineyard. Bush on the other hand wore flannel, cleared brush, and liked Dunkin' Doughnuts. Never mind the fact the Bush as the Grandson of a senator, son of a president, and graduated Yale AND Harvard. They both seem to come across as elites to me.

So, if you are not "down to earth" (meaning slob) or have read something other than Mad magazine, you are an elite. This plays into fashion in a huge way. In my opinion at least. People think that bucking the fashion trend, for example makes them iconoclastic. Ironically, by definition if you follow the herd, you cannot be an iconoclast.

The problem is not we are too educated it is the fact we only think we are educated. A true scholar does his/her own thing and reasons using critical thought. SImply going along to get along or feeling superior to anybody is not the sign of too much education, its a sign of arrogance.

Thanks for the wonderful post and sharing your thoughts!

[BoyLegs]

While I think that Bronson was writing about technical people, given the surrounding context, I stopped to consider the social engineering point. It is very true that totalitarian movements throughout the 20th century sought to eradicate all forms of personal display. In 1984, Julia starts out in a league of chastity, and one of her acts of rebellion is to wear makeup and high heels.

The negative connotations around "elitist" in the US largely arose during the 1930s. Back in the late 1800s, the Gilded Age, wealth was displayed ostentatiously (to say nothing of the 1630s Cavalier in his flowing clothes). Consider the houses in Newport, RI, or on Prairie Avenue in Chicago. As the income tax rates increased, it was impossible for these families to maintain these houses, and after the Depression set in, such displays of wealth became downright dangerous.

The 30s, the era of the "common man", made the word "elite" have the connotations it has today (it also irreparably changed the meaning of "liberal", but I digress). Fashion adapted by assuming the colorations that were required but offering little hints to the knowing of what is really going on. Tom Wolfe, in Mauve Gloves and Madmen, Clutter and Vine, describes the prole tendencies in student fashion at Yale while at the same time the geniunely poor kids literally at the other end of the street (Dixwell Avenue) were striving to take their fashion in the opposite direction.

[HappyFeat]

I do enjoy the enlightened conversation, BoyLegs!

[fastfreddy2]

I do enjoy the enlightened conversation, BoyLegs!

Me too. However, in this instance, the plot may have wandered?....

The use of clothing to declare 'membership' in Nazi Germany, and that of Italy during the 1930's, <blackshirt> was (in my opinion) a way to reduce individualism, not encourage it. An un-debatable conclusion, was the case with Maoist China. The only difference with the latter, choice was never offered at any level.

For millennia, uniforms have denoted membership of group, the Military being an obvious example. The clergy, and more recently, nurses, firemen, policemen and even traffic wardens, have uniform 'signature' status. Meaning; you don't need to ask what group the wearer belongs to, group ownership comes with the uniform.

To a greater or lesser degree, this would include scholars of course.

Unfortunately, during the late 1960's and certainly through the 1970's, the Liberalists had a great deal of influence where they were for the most part created. Many even cast off their background to join what was essentially a working class ground swell of opportunity. [eg. 2nd Viscount Stansgate aka Anthony Wedgewood Benn aka Tony Benn MP.]

With this came a movement for individualism, and de-uniformity. The thinking of the day being; you get more creativity, from individualism? People when allowed to be themselves, will not recognise boundaries, and therefore won't be held back by them. And it worked, for possibly 10 years.....

In my experience, most people don't operate well without constraints. People actually enjoy social markers, no matter how invisible they seem to be. There was never going to be a situation where a group of 30 people meeting, (work/school/play) were going to turn up wearing 30 different colours. People like to belong, we are 'social' animals after all. With 30 people meeting, the best the Liberalists could ever hope to achieve might be 29 attendees with similar/same clothing, and one wearing attire unique to the group. [Goth or punk being quite popular 'alternatives', a contradiction if ever there was one!]

So 'people' made their own uniform. And in a social climate where ostentation wasn't/isn't favourable, dressing to the lowest common denominator was inevitable. Shell suits, 'sweats', oversize denims, all providing both a uniform and with it, (perceived) membership of an earnings strata.

But people being people, some differentiation was necessary, and with that came the need for 'designer' underwear, and other label monikers. The Liberalist movement has unwittingly come full circle, and succeeded in what? Far from pushing the boundaries outward an upward, it only succeeded in 'lowering the bar'......

How will 'dressing up' become popular again? At this moment, I have no idea. But fashion (which I believe to be a reflection/reaction of/to political movement) works in circles. I can only confirm I'm looking forward to the next cycle.

[HappyFeat]

Me too. However, in this instance, the plot may have wandered?....

The use of clothing to declare 'membership' in Nazi Germany, and that of Italy during the 1930's, <blackshirt> was (in my opinion) a way to reduce individualism, not encourage it. An un-debatable conclusion, was the case with Maoist China. The only difference with the latter, choice was never offered at any level.

I guess that was the point I was trying to make. So, I agree entirely!

I heard a great editorial on National Public Radio about a man in the suburban U.S. who wanted to express his individuality. At first he thought about getting a tattoo, then he fund out that everybody else was doing it to express their individuality. His conclusion is that he would wear harem pants and go barefoot until he started a trend then simply return to being his mundane self.

Made me think of this conversation.

[BobHH]

The Mao era clothes only looked the same in pictures. The higher ups had better quality material and tailoring, whereas the masses had mass produced blue cotton. I still have my blue Mao jacket and my farmers cold weather hat that I got in Beijing in 1979.

[HappyFeat]

The Mao era clothes only looked the same in pictures. The higher ups had better quality material and tailoring, whereas the masses had mass produced blue cotton. I still have my blue Mao jacket and my farmers cold weather hat that I got in Beijing in 1979.

But do you have your "Little Red Book?"

All of this makes me think of a Wendy's commercial beack in the 1980's. For those of you under 25, we used to have this thing called the Cold War...pretty silly looking back on it and all...Frankly, the Olympics haven't been the same...

The commercial was a "Russian Fashion Show." It was shot in a dark, dank, hall with poor lighting. The MC said "beach wear" and a large woman in a gray smock came and a babushka came out holding a beach ball; then the MC said "Evening Wear" and the same woman came out in the same outfit holding a flashlight. There was a third example, that I can't remember, but you get the gist.

Poking fun at the perceived culture of a geopolitical adversary is one thing, but the idea was in the Soviet Union choices were limited. In (most) of Western consumer culture, the choices are abundant and accessible. It is a matter of choice.

I guess I have come full circle. People are all about convenience. Too much fast food, big box stores, etc. People also seem to be very, very self absorbed. Its like many people have lost any awareness that the world around them exists beyond the tip of their noses. I have loved this discussion, however I have come to the conclusion that all of the cultural issues are simply excuses people use to justify their own sloth and lack of self awareness. People have made sloppy the new vanity.

In fact, I have been paying attention to people more since reading and writing in this thread. Many people do make an effort, and it is those who do that I will look for.

[fastfreddy2]

I guess I have come full circle. People are all about convenience. Too much fast food, big box stores, etc. People also seem to be very, very self absorbed. Its like many people have lost any awareness that the world around them exists beyond the tip of their noses. I have loved this discussion, however I have come to the conclusion that all of the cultural issues are simply excuses people use to justify their own sloth and lack of self awareness. People have made sloppy the new vanity.

"Sloppy" is the new black? [For much too long.]

I have to say, wearing heels has re-kindled my interest in clothes once again. I used to be a bit of a fashion victim, even though I had no budget to speak of. For a while, carving out a career kept me in suits, and even the double ear-rings went. [i wore them MANY years before chavs.]

Some would see the renaissance in my 'life' interests as me finally getting around to a mid-life crisis..... Except there's no crisis. It's more like having a second go at what interests me without the constraints of parents, and money is slightly less of a worry. Wearing heels has been a great stimulus.

But I'm struggling to find a 34" leg indigo jean with a 30/32" waist ....

...

[raymond.nl]

I have to say, wearing heels has re-kindled my interest in clothes once again.

Much to my surprise I came to this conclusion a couple of days back. I have found a very nice pair of heeled boots (first pair ever, just under 3") that I am wearing around the house, shopping, dining out, etc.

Now I'm shopping for clothes to go with those boots! Up until now shopping has always been way down on my priority list...