heel'd Posted August 24, 2004 Share Posted August 24, 2004 Is there any links to the ACLU and dress codes in the workplace...such as court findings or rulings that are benefitial to us "cross dressers" (heels, skirts and the like) as most of society would consider us? Just wondering if there is something out there on file and concrete in our favor on a Superior or other Court ruling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firefox Posted August 24, 2004 Share Posted August 24, 2004 I've researched this subject on the internet. The general thrust seems to be that employers have a right to insist that employees wear a dress style that conforms to the public idea of the norm and thus would not affect the business prospects of the employer by off-putting the customer in some hypothetical manner. This right does not extend the employees leisure time. Example: An employee could be asked to wear long hair tied back at work, but not required to cut the hair as that would affect time out of work.(This rule may be different for certain professions such as the military or the police where employees might be forced to sign employment contracts stipulating stricter dress codes). The financial interests of the employer seem to outrule human rights legislation to exercise self expression in these respects. But what is new? The courts are only interested in maintaining the fabric of society (ie $$$$), but do you expect anything different! However, here is the good news. If you are careful in your selection of shoes and clothes, you can get away with even 4-5" heels in a business setting because your total ensemble does not sufficiently challenge the publically perceived norm to such an extent as to adversely compromise business prospects. What you can do and where depends upon the business involved, the country, and the confidence and skill of the individual to carry it off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genebujold Posted August 25, 2004 Share Posted August 25, 2004 Very well put! Here's my favorite "link of all links" on this subject if you'd like to know more. Many of the linked sites sport a "news" section which gives a fairly clear picture of how prevalent is the trend of skirt-wearing men, as well society's relative ambivelence: http://www.zyra.org.uk/sk4men.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stephen in heels Posted August 25, 2004 Share Posted August 25, 2004 if work dont want u to wear it then u should respect their wishes imo. after all they pay your wages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffB Posted August 25, 2004 Share Posted August 25, 2004 Well, as everyone here knows, I've been wearing women's shoes daily for the last three years and have never been called to task about it from a dress code angle. Hell, I don't think I've even seen the company's dress code in print anywhere. And since some of the women routinely wear flip-flops and Chinese slippers, both of which I find repugnant, then no one should complain about my wearing tasteful looking pumps, despite my gender. And no one has. In that regard, I've been very fortunate. I don't want to LOOK like a woman, I just want to DRESS like a woman! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firefox Posted August 25, 2004 Share Posted August 25, 2004 I can't remember exactly what you did Jeff, but was it like finance related in a Gov department? I suppose if you do a good job they can't complain and you have some very tasteful clothes, as I have seen. Another major factor could be contact with the public. If one is in sales or PR then the employer may insist on a certain image whereas a back office type job may have more flexibility. My own job is half back office and half contact with clients. I don't have any problem wearing heels with clients, but then again I work for a small firm in the UK where the dress codes are not as rigid as could happen in a large organisation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffB Posted August 26, 2004 Share Posted August 26, 2004 I can't remember exactly what you did Jeff, but was it like finance related in a Gov department? I suppose if you do a good job they can't complain and you have some very tasteful clothes, as I have seen. Another major factor could be contact with the public. If one is in sales or PR then the employer may insist on a certain image whereas a back office type job may have more flexibility. Quite right, I work for the Federal government as a Personnel Clerk, my job being to process and distribute incoming resumes from people looking for Federal jobs. As such, no one in our organization comes in actual contact with customers, just the general public which has nothing to do with us, and that's no big deal at all. I don't want to LOOK like a woman, I just want to DRESS like a woman! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new_look Posted August 26, 2004 Share Posted August 26, 2004 its daft. Our bank handbook tells everyone to wear 'sensible shoes' for health and safety, yet in the summer, girls can choose from boots, stiletto courts, sandals, mules, flip flops. Also they can wear a short skirt to keep cooler and trousers if it rains What can the men wear? Shirt tie trousers shoes. No altenate choice! Equal Rights?? I think Not - Womens rights more like Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genebujold Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 I hear you, Daz - I'd like nothing better than to go about my business wearing whatever I wanted, provided it was in good, clean-cut taste, well coordinated, etc. Sadly, the boss (me!) puts the interests of the business (making money) above the interests of those (me again!) who, if allowed to dress the way they want, would hurt the bottom line. And I owe that to my consultants, as they're quasi-partners, and I would never do anything like that, as it would hurt their bottom lines, too. For that matter, some of my consultants raised the issue of coming to work in more casual attire, such as "business casual," but when we threw it out on the table and debated it (I abstained), our group reached agreement that it would hurt the bottom line, and as a whole (including the ones who raised the idea) were not willing to exchange cash for a touch more comfort. So, the dress code stands: suit in the office, suit and tie when with clients or when clients are in the office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new_look Posted August 27, 2004 Share Posted August 27, 2004 i know that. its the principle in everyones eyes im trying to debate. the rights arent equal. who says men would look bad in a skirt or heels. Its just down to what people are used to seeing so they assume it doesnt fit daz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genebujold Posted August 29, 2004 Share Posted August 29, 2004 i know that. its the principle in everyones eyes im trying to debate. the rights arent equal. who says men would look bad in a skirt or heels. Its just down to what people are used to seeing so they assume it doesnt fit daz Agree 100%, Daz. As I began my previous post, "I'd like nothing better than to go about my business wearing whatever I wanted, provided it was in good, clean-cut taste, well coordinated, etc." I've seen pics here and on other boards where a man's choice of skirt made them look remarkably ridiculous! But I've also seen many that would past muster in the Queen's court - provided the concept of men wearing non-bifurcated garments was acceptable to the Queens court. It is, but it's limited to either kilts, or country-specific attire when worn only by a member of that country. Reminds me of the last time I was at the Grand Canyon, North Rim. One of the park rangers (female) was giving me a stare or two because I was wearing a Macabi skirt (designed for both men and women). Given her non-verbals (facial expression, body language) I could tell she was about to "police her beat," so I began first by saying, "Were you aware that men throughout the last 8,000 years of recorded history have worn open-ended garments like skirts and dresses, and that even today, in half the countries on this planet, it is the societal norm for men to wear something other than shorts or pants?" At her dumbfounded look, I added, "Think of it as merely a camping kilt. I am part Scottish, you know." I turned and left her, with her jaw just about touching the ground. Daz, and others, if you haven't guessed by now, I really hate it and have no sympathy when people (not you guys!) can't connect the dots. It doesn't take a rocket scientist! Just a very small appreciation for things beyond one's immediate surroundings in time and space. Know what I mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffM Posted August 29, 2004 Share Posted August 29, 2004 Know what I mean? Yep I live in a world of possibility. Not one that "has to be, aught to be or should be", instead one that could be. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubba136 Posted August 29, 2004 Share Posted August 29, 2004 Yeah GBJ, I know what you mean also. However, you're not in charge. If you were, you could proclaim that men will be allowed to wear woman's styles. However, you aint And, therein lies the rub...... Being mentally comfortable in your own mind is the key to wearing heels in public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new_look Posted August 29, 2004 Share Posted August 29, 2004 good point Bubba But just who is in charge. These items have swapped between genders for hundreds of years. It boils down to somebody saying, men wear this, and women wear that. But whats increasingly annoying is that women can wear either, and men can just wear 'mens' I was in London recently and saw numerous shops, Shellys Dorothy Perkins etc all selling the latest trend for women, Cowboy Boots. Now corret me if im wrong buy surely the cowBOY would be enough to indicate that these are MENS fashion or MENS clothes. Oh i forgot, women can wear anything cant they. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firefox Posted August 29, 2004 Share Posted August 29, 2004 You seem to be equating what is on offer on the respective shop shelves to what you CAN wear. Isn't this the point? Who is in charge... you are in charge. There are some limits but bending them and pushing them is to be praised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubba136 Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 Amen, Brother FF Being mentally comfortable in your own mind is the key to wearing heels in public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new_look Posted August 30, 2004 Share Posted August 30, 2004 agreement here too. I mean societies rules, and why. thats what im ranting about. Doesnt mean it will stop me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawn HH Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 Daz:-) I see your point and it won't stop me either. Cheers--- Dawn HH High Heeled Boots Forever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genebujold Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 Yeah GBJ, I know what you mean also. However, you're not in charge. If you were, you could proclaim that men will be allowed to wear woman's styles. However, you aint And, therein lies the rub...... Hold your horses... and your tears! I am, and I'm not. I'm free to wear anything I wish. But in so doing, I'm also choosing the consequences. The more outlandish the choice, the more pronounced the response. Such is the way of life in all societies, from the smallest (family) to the largest (global). This is why I've always maintained, "push the limit but do so in moderation." In other words, by all means wear heels, but in a way that's not an affront to the vast majority of the populace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubba136 Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 GBJ wrote: I'm free to wear anything I wish. But in so doing, I'm also choosing the consequences My father used to tell me, when ever I became too adventurous, "whatever your shoulders are broad enough to bear." Meaning -- actions have consequences. So be prepared to accept the consequences of whatever you do. Being mentally comfortable in your own mind is the key to wearing heels in public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffM Posted August 31, 2004 Share Posted August 31, 2004 Yep Trouble is these days we can get lawyers to say it was some else to blame when it blows up in our face and make money from it to boot. I am talking in general here not womens clothes or shoes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ward Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 Dress codes serve to keep every one looking professional. I work in a mechanic shop, so jeans and work boots are the norm. I do not want to wear high heels here, as there are too many saftey hazards here. If you work in an office envriment,where every body works in cubicles all day, you can probably wear heels and no one would care. When I was in high school, the school adminastration had a policy in place that males could not wear shorts to school. This was in southern california in the late '70s. Many of my friends and I went out and bought skirts, they were about 18" to 20" long, about 1/2 way down to our knees. We wore them to school that spring when it got warm, late april early may, for three weeks, until the school board met. The school board changed the rules, letting guys wear shorts when the weather warrented. 625 guys, who show up at the school board meeting in skirts, can't be wrong. High heels forever, ward Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firefox Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 Nice story Ward! Occasionally I work at a nuclear power station and steel toe cap boots and helmet are obligitory in the reactor area. It doesn't stop me wearing 3 or 4" heels in the admin building or canteen areas though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawn HH Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 My job requires that we wear sneakers, but the rest of the time I'm in heels. Cheers--- Dawn HH High Heeled Boots Forever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genebujold Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 625 guys, who show up at the school board meeting in skirts, can't be wrong. Sure would like to know what school district that was, in order that I might publish its accomplishments around the world! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubba136 Posted November 13, 2004 Share Posted November 13, 2004 There's a big difference in wearing skirts to make a political statement (inequities in the school dress code) than there is wearing skirts for comfort and fashion. I would place the school board skirt stunt in the same category as I put the wearing heels in support of some of the female causes that were publicized here several months ago. Being mentally comfortable in your own mind is the key to wearing heels in public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genebujold Posted November 16, 2004 Share Posted November 16, 2004 I dunno, Bubba. I'd rather like to see more people protesting the issue. At the very least it would increase the overall public's awareness, and probably acceptance, provided it was tastefully done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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