Pam Posted October 28, 2003 Author Share Posted October 28, 2003 Gene, thanks for the correction! English is not my first language and it is always good to learn!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ionic Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Salomon is the spelling in Dutch; one side of my family tree is stuffed with Salomons. I expect it is a similar spelling in some of the other northern Euro-languages. /I /I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genebujold Posted November 1, 2003 Share Posted November 1, 2003 Gene, thanks for the correction! English is not my first language and it is always good to learn!! Oh, gosh, er, High, Pam! Actually, you were closer to the right definition that I may have lead you to think! Gene' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genebujold Posted November 1, 2003 Share Posted November 1, 2003 Salomon is the spelling in Dutch; one side of my family tree is stuffed with Salomons. I expect it is a similar spelling in some of the other northern Euro-languages. /I Ok - language history time... Salomon - this is the spelling adopted by the ski equipment company, of which I own a pair of 360R bindings (I know - very old (1980) but also very functional). Solomon - this is the spelling adopted by the biblical scholars of our day. Very little variation. Enough said - draw your own conclusions as to whether it's a marketing technique or an honest attempt at spiritual reconciliation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heelfan Posted November 1, 2003 Share Posted November 1, 2003 Just to tell everyone that in addition to the above excellent debate, a similar debate from different members but on the same topic-heading has been going on on Jenny's Forum. Jointly, this has been some of the best and most insightful debating ever seen on these forums. Because of this, both Jo and SusanTheOriginal have asked whether all the postings can be consolidated on this Megaforum where they will remain as precious archive material. Accordingly, with Firefox's blessing, I will duly copy across all of the additional postings from Jenny's message-board to this thread (below). Well worth studying! Cheerfully yours, Heelfan. Here we go: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Posted by Susan (the original) on October 25, 2003, 6:16:58 The silence here has become deafening and since I can't participate on the mega forum I'll take the liberty to move a new post to this board. That particular post centers on Pam, a fella who's girl friend "freaked out" when she learned of his passion for wearing high heels and apparently cross dressing. (taken from his remarks) His dilema is what is he supposed to do about her. A host of people gave what I'm sure they believe is well intentioned advice. Laurie being the only exception it was all from men. Now here's the first place it gets confusing. Laurie moved the topic to the men's board "because" they are the one's with all the experience at this. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but in each one of those experiences the guys had, there was another person involved, a woman. If that wasn't true there wouldn't have been an "experience" to learn from. So in reality there are just as many women who have gone through the experience as men. Hmmmmm In reading through all of the advice, from a woman's perspective the usual is completely missing. No one, and I mean no one, entertained the concept or idea of asking or showing interest in what the woman wants or expects and the recommentation of ACCEPTING her values. That most definitely isn't part of the intent presented. The phrase "make her" (quote - unquote) pretty well sums up most of the attitudes. There is a bit of re-assurance though that at least one person recognizes the woman may have some "fears". I must respectfully disagree with Bubba's assertion that Pam's explanations should not sound like an ultimatum. That's a bit obsurd. In reality the ultimatum was in place before any consideration was given toward any explanation to the woman. It was made very clear in the responses that if she loved him she should change, but she isn't allowed, or expected, to think if he loved her he should change. Again, this is made ademately clear and it's abundantly lopesided. As in all of the discussions on this topic it's hard to find anyone (the are a couple) who have entertained the concept that the woman has the prerogative and the right to adhere to her values and simply reject what she finds unacceptable. She also has the right to say no and not be forced through an indoctrination. It's a foregone conclusion this option is not going to be afforded to her. Again, read through all of the advice. Absolutely no where is there any indication of how a woman is to be treated when she says "NO". We've been waiting years for someone to address this on these forums and to date no one has touched it. Come on people, why not? We're quite serious, it's a very real and very important part of this topic. There's certainly no absence of advice throughout the forums for everything else, including what "women" are "supposed" to wear. I do like Heelfan's idea of girlfriends, or wives, or whom ever, coming to the forums to observe the behavior. I'm a female, a woman, so please allow me to take all those women on a guided tour. Now, I'm going to be in all kinds of trouble again but reality is reality and truth is truth. There'll be an outcry of all the supposed concern expressed for the woman in the orginal topic, the advice to listen to what she might have to say, give her time to learn, etc, but none of it approaches or negates what we outlined above. Pam, I don't know whether you will see this post or not and it will become lost history in a few days. A bunch of guys gave you a lot of advice now I'm giving you some from a woman. First of all, at this stage contrary to what you've been told, the sequence of events is not up to you, it's up to her. She makes the decisions on what she accepts, not you. That works both ways for her, whether she "accepts" your interests in the heels and whatever, or "rejects" them, the decision is her's WITHOUT provocation. I'm a female and emotion is a deeply rooted part of me and very likely that of your girlfriend. In all of the advice given to you no one even hinted on the emotional turmoil the girl very likely is experiencing. Very honestly I disagree with your behavior but it's your life, it's certainly none of my business, and I do wish you the best of times. Your girlfriend also deserves the best of times in her values and what "she" wants. Hmmmm, strange concept. Good luck, enjoy your life, it goes much to quickly. On a personal note with similar issues I'll offer another reality. It's called personal values. They are mine, they're deeply rooted, I'm not likely to change them, and I definitely don't owe anyone an explanation about them, and nor does any other woman. Laurie, since you elected to raise the issue again on the other board I'm going to address it. Now, I'm a widow, I deeply enjoy the company of a fine gentleman, and some day I may find another wonderful companion. (I'm not OLD yet) If I decline a gentleman's invitation it's based on "my" values, period. I don't owe anyone an explanation and it has nothing to do with being open or closed minded. It could be because of ......., or because of ......., or because of ........, or possibly because of there is nothing manly about a man wearing high heels, or because of .......... ! There is nothing "misconceived" about that, it is very real and it belongs to me. I'm sure the opposite is true also in that a gentleman would not make an invitation to me because of ........, or because of ......., or possibly because he has never seen me wear "sensible" shoes, or.....! That's reality, so be it. Tomorrow morning when I first get up from bed, it is impossible for any portion other then the end of my small nearly vertical feet to touch the carpeted floor. I'll either immediately slip on a pair of heels or walk balanced on the end of my bare feet. That reality belongs to me and if I had't made the terrible mistake of sharing it here, no one here would know. Truth and reality! Susan _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ___ ___ _ _ _ _ __ _ ___ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I (Heelfan) posted this reply October 25, 2003, 11:40:33: Surely the only true way for any of us to try to attempt to help "Pam" in his problem is for each of is to be 100% compassionate to BOTH sexes, and to try to understand and to search towards the ultimate happiness of BOTH parties involved. I may or may not have succeeded, but my only wish in all of my postings is to try and help towards EVERYONE'S happiness (wherever that might be possible!), rather than the all too common and unfortunate phonomen of members appearing to side just with the man or just with with the woman. As marriage councellors know, confrontation NEVER helps anyone. It is only by understanding both parties feelings and ambitions, and getting them to talk about them to each other in a constructive (rather than a destructive) way, that they can ever hope to find out whether a truly happy future together can be achieved. Now, none of us should possess the arrogance to presume to know all the answers to other people problems. However, we can at least try to help other men and women from the benefit of our own personal experience. Therefore, speaking as a straight family man who has been street-heeling and heel-admiring for forty-seven years(since the age of twelve), and happily married to the same lovely wife for 30 years, maybe I can try to identify, and to try to understand what might possibly be the main issues in "Pam's" case: Firsly, to try and be compassionate towards "Pam": Maybe we can assume that he shares the situation of myself and the vast majority of male heel-wearers: Most of us are straight (or pretty-well straight) ie not gay. Most of us find that(through no initial choice of our own, it seems) we have an inbuilt "thing" about high heels - in all cases re. admiring them on women, and in an amazingly large number of more extreme cases like mine, re. actually wearing them to share the experience. Most of us, notwithstanding our "thing" about heels, regard ourselves as being 100% masculine and 100% keen on finding and loving another woman and NOT another man. There our countless happy marriages and relationships involving a heel-wearing man to attest to this. All of us find that, through no fault of our own, we are "stuck" with it for life. To quote the highly intelligent and learned Highluc - it is NOT a disease, it cannot be medically cured, and whether we like it or not, it will NEVER GO AWAY. Now then, what do we straight, heelwearing guys do? We all want happy, straight relationships with a loving woman (like mine), but we are all scared stiff that our "thing" (which we cannot lose) will maybe horrify, maybe repulse and maybe lose our wonderful lady whom we love and to whom are so very attracted. The superficial answer is to say "If you love and cherish your lady then simply banish all heel interests". Well yes! Absolutely! We all love and cherish our ladies more than inanimate objects like shoes, and many of us have have tried ditching our collections and suppressing our kinky urge. BUT IT NEVER WORKS! The forums have shown that time after time, male heel-wearers have tried this, often repeatedly in their anxiety to be fully "normal" husbands, but they are confounded to find that their urge remains. It may be ostensibly repressed for a while - many weeks, many months, or even several years, but it is always smouldering there despite all endeavours, waiting to re-ignite and burst back out. And often in the meantime, it makes the man difficult to live with. He finds himself feeling somehow repressed, unfulfilled, grouchy and tetchy, which doesn't help anyone. I ask Susan and all other ladies on these forums to try and appreciate the problems that encumber we men who find that we have an inbuilt "heel thing" in addition to seeking a loving man/woman relationship. It is a huge, virtually impossible-to-control inbuilt compulsion that is nothing to do with wanting to look effeminite! We do not choose to take it up like stamp-collecting, nor can we (and this is what we beg all women to try and understand) give it up like stamp-collecting. No-one seems to understand (I certainly don't) why a large number of us have it, but it is just there to be coped-with - inbuilt into us through no optional choice or fault of our own. Should we all hold back from our loving desires to fraternise with the opposite sex and live a celibate monastic existance as social lepars? Or should we try to gain the understanding of our girlfriends and wives and work it through in search of preserving our mutual happiness? Secondly, to try to be compassionate towards "Pam's" good lady: We assume that like my wife and countless other young ladies, she entered the relationship in good spirit and in good faith quite oblivious to the "Heely thing" that certain men are saddled with. Therefore, upon the discovery or admission being made(and depending on the preceding length of time and the impact) she will almost certainly be surprised/alarmed/bewildered/shocked/puzzled to varying degrees. She deserves every possible sympathy and a huge amount of understanding. Once the man's shoeie thing is revealed (honestly, and in its full entirely), talked-about and has sunk in, regettably but of necessity is up to each lady to assess the previously-undreampt-of situation in their own individual way. It is never easy, because so many confliction emotions will be flooding their brains. These might, judging by the Forums, range at one extreme from outright, overwhelming abhorrence, repulsion and digust resulting in quick separation and the lady's flight to 'safety' or 'normality'. At the very opposite extreme, others have reported that their girlfriend has immediately grinned that it is "kinky" and a "turn-on", sometimes resulting in their indulging in outings wearing 100% identical high-heeled shoes, and reporting that passers-by have called this "Cute!". However, within the two above clear-cut and self-solving extremes, the vast majority of couples will less obvious, more confusing and complex decision. These can only be faced with a fully frank, honest and sincere period of soul-searching and exchanges of all their feelings as to whether a normal, loving girl can continue to be happy with an equally loving but heel-fancying guy. Only the two of them can ever come up with their own particular answer. I am pleased to say that in my case and, it seems, in the majority of others, mutual compassion and understanding appear to prevail, and a successful marriage or relationship survives and accommodates the new element. Sadly, in some other cases it doesn't, and maybe a separation is ultimately all for the best. In our case (and I'm sure we're not alone) it was not all plain sailing and a bed of roses at every point. Don't expect them to be. Few situations are black and white, but varying shades of grey. Having discovered my heel-admiring interest, my wife turned that to our full advantage by wearing some wonderful ultra-high-heels everywhere we went, to the pleasure of ourselves and everyone else. Having had the initial shock of finding that I wore high heels (3" to 5 1'2" ranging from thick block to stilettos), she admitting that, like Susan, she felt that high heels made any man look effeminate. However, she said the the other half of her recognised that, because she loved me and wanted me to be happy, the heels were obviously giving me much happiness and contributed to my life. We've had various such chats over the years and have worked out a mutually acceptable regime which preserves maximum happiness for each of us and for our marriage. In our case, it is tacitly understood that I don't embarrass either of us by overtly wearing high, feminine heels around our staff, daughter, local friends or neighbours. My wife is understanding and supportive of my swanning-off in the anonymity of the big cities and to the Megaforum's Heel-Meets, and sometimes accompanies me on my far-flung heel rambles which give me my regular "fix" and prevent my getting any hang-ups or tetchiness. In some cases, couples have worked-it-out and accepted the man's heelwearing to work and everywhere else, but in others have agreed that it must only remain strictly in private. My main message is that every couple must discuss this as early as possible and as frankly, honestly and compassionately as possible, and to try very hard to see whether or not a happy and all-embracing relationship can be maintained. I implore ALL of you to show full and equal compassion to the man and the woman, and I wish "Pam" and all others every possible success in having frank talks and in making constructive, kind and considerate decisions for your future lives. There! I've opened my heart to you as honestly and fully as I know how! Cheerfully yours, Heelfan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by John on October 25, 2003, 13:13:27, in reply to "Here's some of the original thread" I was just thinking whether as a man I should had any thing useful to write about, given not many contributions lately, and Susan you make very valid points on relationships. Human relationships that are caring and trusting are a wonderful thing. A relationship to survive needs to grow and both people need to contribute. When we do something a bit extraordinary - like a 21st/20th century man having a passion for high heels (if 18th or 17th century the men of the upper classes had the best heels) then it is naturally a shock of some kind to the other partner and needs care in working through. It can be that it is just too much for the relationship, and both people have to make decisions, preferably not to quickly. I talked of male-female relationships but it is not limited to them, and whether or not sexual relationships (physical) are involved. Contributions from both men and women are helpful - on just about any topic - even if they aren't always forthcoming. I guess as we learn to be tolerant on this board, and mostly we are, we also learn to be more tolerant generally. I certainly think that males would find it very helpful if there were women on the board who could tell what it is like finding or being told of their partner's heel passion. Over time we have heard quite a bit, and I guess inevitably it usually has to be as expressed by the man involved. Sometimes you experience how much your partner cares - for me its times like when my wife tells me there will be a lot of standing and to make sure I wear high-enough heels to avoid foot pain. Another when I was about to leave hospital and she bought in a nice pair of heels so I could enjoy my first day out. Of course, she'd rather I was more 'normal' and so I really appreciate her acceptance/tolerance. I guess we men need to think how we can make it easier for our partners, they can suffer from our preferences. sorry to be so long -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by Socrates on October 25, 2003, 13:55:01, in reply to "A good debate" So Pam's girlfriend found some pictures of high heels on his computer. So what? Perhaps Pam was looking on HER computer one day and he found out she was into classical music and had downloaded a large number of tracks. What would Pam do about that. Throw a big tantrum? "How dare you be into classical music? We always listen to chart music. I won't tolerate your interest. When a man say NO, he means NO..." Let's face it, interest in shoes, classical music, football cards, or a recipe collection. They are all harmless likes of inanimate objects. People always have to find something to moan about don't they? Tolerate, live life, enjoy life, be nice. If Pam's girlfriend had found a collection of child abuse pictures, that WOULD be something to moan about. With respect to any other harmless interests please chill out on it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by Bubba136 on October 25, 2003, 16:05:04, in reply to "Help coping with wife" Susan’s interpretation goes a long way towards presenting the female side of the question of how to handle the revelation that a man she has been seeing likes to wear high heels/crossdress. However, her statement that “No one, and I mean no one, entertained the concept or idea of asking or showing interest in what the woman wants or expects and the recommendation of ACCEPTING her values” isn’t totally true. I believe everyone offering Pam advice understands “it's a very real and very important part of this topic.” However, the advice offered is from the standpoint of how to provide her with sufficient information, explaining Pam’s desires, for her to take a decision. There’s a set of unspoken “givens” built into our advice. We are already aware of how Pam’s girlfriend reacted. She, to say the least, wasn’t “pleased” to learn of this aspect of her boy friends personality – and, I guess I should include, by the way that she discovered it. And, for anyone to say that “As in all of the discussions on this topic it's hard to find anyone (the are a couple) who have entertained the concept that the woman has the prerogative and the right to adhere to her values and simply reject what she finds unacceptable” isn’t correct. This is what this whole thread is about. Fact, Pam’s girlfriend isn’t receptive to Pam’s behavior. Fact, based on Pam’s rendition of how she reacted, it’s evident to me that his girlfriend might already be in the process of exercising her prerogative of simply rejecting people and practices she finds unacceptable. Fact, while totally recognizing the decision is entirely up to his girlfriend, Pam would really like to continue this relationship based on his true personality. Fact, Pam is seeking advice on how to tell her “the rest of the story,” by furnishing sufficient information with the possibility that she will understand the basis of his unorthodox behavior. Fact, that when Pam presents his explanation, he should do it un-apologetically, un-confrontationally and without ultimatums. Just that “I want to tell you from the very start so that you are aware this is who I am, what I am, the way I am.” Fact, his girlfriend probably has already made up her mind and perhaps there’s nothing that Pam, or anyone else can contribute that would change her mind. I’ve re-read all of the comments in this thread. And, nowhere can I find anyone giving any advice that calls for “forcing” Pam’s girlfriend to accept his behavior against her wishes, moral values or basic beliefs. In fact, advice is presented on the basis of “what you should have done” to avoid this sort of confrontation. Everything has been presented from the angle that “now you know and I’ll accept any decision you make.” Now Susan, everyone is aware of your “personal” values. It’s refreshing to see that someone out there still adheres to the morals and ideals that provide the solid foundation of this nation. I don’t believe anyone here would want to question or argue with you about them. In fact, I would venture to opine that 80% of the members of this forum agree with you. So, what you state falls completely within the advice offered -- Be yourself; be truthful and forthcoming from the start; be un-confrontational and respectful of other’s views. And, I might add; accept and learn to live with other people’s opinions and decisions. By the way, Pam has every right to reject participating in any relationship in which he finds unacceptable behavior on the other party’s part, too. We all recognize this is a two way street. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by Bubba136 on October 25, 2003, 16:09:05, in reply to "Re: A good debate" Actually, in some people's minds, there no difference in finding pictures of high heels and child abuse pictures on someone's computer. They don't differentiate by degrees of unacceptable behavior. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Posted by Heelfan on October 25, 2003, 16:42:19, in reply to "Re: A good debate" Bubba, both of your postings on this topic have been excellent and show enormous insight. I am sure you a right that many girls would be just as shocked by finding heel-stuff on their guy's computer as they would if it were pornography, chatlines to children or any other behavior perceived as being in any way "deviant". However, my long posting endeavoured to stress the importance of thorough, frank and candid discussions between the couple. Only in that way can it be ascertained whether the lady can bring herself towards accepting the comparative harmlessness of male heel-wearing, or whether she remains permanently repulsed by any form of male deviation from the norm, however harmless to others. As Churchill said "It's better to jaw, jaw, jaw than to war, war, war!". Most conflicts can be resolved given sufficient love and compassion on both sides. It certainly worked brilliantly for me, but my wife and I do review the situation and our latest feelings from time to time so as to continue to understand and to stay in tune with each other. _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ _ __ ____ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Posted by Chris11 on October 25, 2003, 17:58:45, in reply to "Help coping with wife" Susan, I'm stuck here in a conflict of thoughts. Before I say more though, please understand that I mean no disrespect to you in anyway. Now .. that said. You seem to constantly bring up how "negative" your experiences have been here. How you regret sharing your experiences here. So this is my conflict, why do you continue to return to something to dislike so much? I'm confused! I'm aware of the history you have here on the board (I've been around long enough) and I certainly agree that you have been treated VERY RUDELY (understatement) on many occasions. No dispute on that note. So I guess my ultimate question is, why keep rehashing the past. Leave it there or maybe just leave. I for one hope you would most definitely choose the first one. I guess I'm just tired of hearing it over and over again. Please remember ... no disrespect intended with this. Thanks for your time. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Posted by Quantum on October 25, 2003, 21:07:29, in reply to "Here's some of the original thread" I don't get in this board very often as it seems like a lot of contentiousness and judgement, etc goes on. Have only read this particular thread and my "two bits" are as follows: Really doesn't matter too much what two peoples individual interests are. But when you're in a marriage then if you have a problem with fetishes, etc with the other partner, you should have been honest enough with them before you ever "tied the knot". One party will be as adamanat as the other about their interests, etc and don't hold your breath for them to change..it probably won't happen. The best you can do is suck it up and keep it to your self and don't try to "change" your spouse, because chances are very great you won't. You now have raised the spectre of dishonesty which will lead to mistrust and all the fallout that goes with that. Should have found a woman who understands your "unique" interest before you made a marriage commitment to her. Hope it works out for you _ _ _ _ _ _ __ __ _ _ _ _ __ __ ___ ___ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Posted by Heelfan on October 26, 2003, 1:02:12, in reply to "Help coping with wife" Susan, as sadly you still seem unable to post on the Megaforums thread (readers - click on the "Megaforums" link at the top or bottom of this message-board, find the "For The Guys" Forum and see "Help Coping With The Wife"), I've tried to help by putting my posting on that thread saying that you have started a parallel thread on this forum. Conversely, readers will be interested to know that the same interesting subject continues to be debated on that forum, concurrently with this one. Cheerfully yours, Heelfan _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Posted by Bubba136 on October 26, 2003, 1:23:13, in reply to "Re: A good debate" You make some excellent points, Heelfan. However, it takes two people that are willing to talk it through. But, there are some people that just aren't willing to listen to any explanation. They just walk, walk, walk. And, in my opinion, Pam should brace himself for this eventuality. Like Kirmet the frog said: "It's not easy being green." _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Posted by Laurieheels on October 26, 2003, 5:18:23, in reply to "Help coping with wife" Well, I will decline from commenting on most of what Susan has said, except to say that I stand by my judgement on moving the subject to the men's forum over at hhplace. Personally, I cannot relate to what Pam is going through, so I directed the issue where there would be more exposure by men, thinking that some of them may be able to relate. Shared experiences are powerful things. Pam is looking to connect with feelings, I think men who have been where he is now can help best. Yes, a woman is involved, yes she is important, but we are all overlooking one important thing. We have a guy posting for help, using the name Pam. Perhaps I am mistaken, but I didn't know that was a gender neutral name. No offense here, this leads to some sincerity. I am going to suggest that the person who needs to sort things out the msot here is Pam, and he has to really understand himself, before he can try to have anyone else do that, for good or bad. This includes the girlfriend mentioned in the situation. I will wish Pam the best of luck in understanding what it is he would like from life, and then being able to act upon that to find a real happiness. We are all caught up with the shoes, the clothing, the girlfriend, and no one is thinking about what Pam is going through. There are some signs here, of many things, and the larger issue is that Pam needs to sort out Pam before anyone else gets involved. We should show compassion and understanding. The girlfriend will make the decision she feels is best for her, and I for one hope Pam can make the decision that is best for his own happiness. Why be in a relationship if something you feel is important to yourself is not allowed to flourish, or even exist? Now that certainly was more long winded than I had intended, but it is typed and there for everyone to read, direct from the swirling chaos that was once my brain. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Posted by Susan (the original) on October 26, 2003, 7:40:24, in reply to "Re: Help coping with wife" Hello Chris - I understand and appreciate your thoughts. For what it's worth, just as you're tired of hearing it, I'm tired of reliving it, but the realities just don't seem to go away. On several past occasions I've described the sequence of events that originally brought me to Jenny's site years ago. Several participants have posted some genuinely sincere, well thought responses to this thread, I'll respond in kind to your ultimate question and try again to explain. Some time after we (family) became internet users I tried a search for something about high heels just out of curiousity. Most all of what I found simply wasn't to my taste until I stumbled on to Jenny's. Jenny and I exchanged a few e-mails, her site was still in the early part of its construction, and for what would appear to be obvious reasons, I thought I would fit in. Hence, my story found it's way on to her site, but not to the audience I had expected. The more time passed the more obvious it was that I was in an environment I was completely unfamilar with and unprepared for. You indicate you're familar with some history of what I've encountered here, we can pass over that. When my husband died I never expected to return. In all honesty I had met a few very nice people here at Jenny's back then, mostly through her chat room. Jenny, Lisa, Stephanie, Bubba, RC, and others spent hours visiting via the internet and talking about most anything. Many weeks after Tom passed away I looked in to say hello to those FRIENDS. (Those FRIENDS know the reason for the upper case) In the midst of everything, through nothing more than coincidence and a woman seeking help, I found my self involved in a very real, very ugly side of human behavior. One thing lead to another and what I learned there seemed to be linked to much of what I had experienced here on the internet. In time my purpose in continued participation here took on a different set of reasons. Frankly it wasn't much fun but it was very real in observed demonstrated attitudes and it became immensely important to us. It centered on the "attitudes" and behavior of the high heel wearing male toward women. I'm most definitely not trying to open old wounds here, I'm explaining what took place in an effort to answer your question. Setting all of that aside, personally, my mind set toward my life in heels is the same today as it was ten or twenty years ago. Chris, you mentioned my regret for sharing my "experiences" here. No, it's not my experiences I regret sharing here, it's my life and my family that I regret sharing. In a post that has long dropped off the bottom of this page I described standing in a bolster seat of a motionless performance boat, the sight of a harvest moon reflecting on the mirror like still water of the lake, and yes I'm wearing heels. That's reality, that's what I live. It becomes incredibly hard to explain. The speed and sound of the now silent boat, the peasefullness of the now smooth water, and nature's silhouette lit by the gold color of the harvest moon. I shared and experienced those things many times with my husband, and my children. Each and everytime I stood in that bolster seat I was wearing heels, what are considered very high heels. It's simply who I am, the achieved motion with manner, and I'm thankful for every moment. Chris, I hope maybe this helps in understanding. Susan _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Posted by John on October 26, 2003, 11:37:34, in reply to "experiences" Dear Susan, I hope you will continue coming back, and I hope you find support among friends. Posting on the net allows anyone to comment, and I hope you can just let the negative comments pass by, their generally not worth the trouble of a reply unless it is someone genuinely trying to help. I don't think there is anything harder than the long of a spouse who has been a life support over many years. Fortunately for me I haven't experienced that, but I think it is likely to make one find it harder to be all the positive things we would like to be. It's a tough time adjusting to a new world, and we are trying to be positive. John _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Posted by Firefox on October 26, 2003, 23:59:23, in reply to "Just some stuff about deeper issues" That's true. An interest in shoes is one thing. Full crossdressing is something else. I guess Pam would have to discuss that side of himself, and his ultimate aspirations, quite fully with his girlfriend. One of the main shocks to her will be the hidden nature of his passions. The deceit thus far may always leave that doubt in her mind. It's so much easier to come clean at an early stage. But if it's any consolation to Pam's gf, and if she ever reads this, I'll say I've met countless guys who wear heels in real life, even some of whom have some X-dressing ideas too. There're all top guys, heterosexual in outlook, and many of them in long loving relationships with wives or partners. So, Pam deserves a chance to find himself, and Pam's gf deserves the truth and the chance to learn more so she can decide if she can live with that side of him. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Posted by Heelfan on October 27, 2003, 4:35:54, in reply to "Re: Just some stuff about deeper issues" This has been one of the best and most constructive debates on this forum (together with the parallel debate on the same thread-title currently running on Megaforums). I agree with Laurie that the very phenomenon of a guy trying to improve his relationship with a girl whilst at the same time calling himself "Pam" is significant. Unfortunately it might create obstacles to that endeavour, because for instance, it might have been very useful at this stage for "Pam" to invite his good lady to read these particular threads for herself and to appreciate the friendly, compassionate nature of the contributors and the calibre of the sincere advice trhat they are trying to give. Whereas in the circumstances this exercise might me completely undermined if she finds her guy openly calling himself "Pam". One contributor somewhat flippantly posted to the effect that "What's the big deal here? Shoes are only shoes!". Well, yes, but whenever a guy is found to to be concealing high heel sites or actual high heels, it is bound to cause initial shock to just about every starry-eyed young girlfriend of wife, because they will inevitably bring into question question of their guy's sexual orientation. Is he gay? Is he just a tranvestite? (often they do not have prior knowledge that there is actually a huge difference?), Is he in the process of turning into a woman? In these traumatic circumstances, it can only exascerbate the initial shock to the unsuspecting lady if the guy is found to be using a "femme" name too. Anyway, I do hope the couple in question can work it out successfully, and I hope that my long posting below, and everyone else's help and advice will also assist in the process. Cheerfully yours, Heelfan _ _ _ ___ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Posted by Susan (the original) on October 27, 2003, 13:52:40, in reply to "Re: Just some stuff about deeper issues" Firefox, you're holding women (me) at an incredible disadvantage here. You expressed your experiences that "all" guys who wear high heels, even those with X-dressing ideas are "all top guys" to influence Pam's gf. That's fine, they very well might be and that is as it should be. You've also stated "Pam's gf deserves the truth......". Participating under the guide lines I've been sent, my experiences (those of a woman) to the contrary of Firefox's, working in women's help groups, are expressly forbidden. There is a definition for that. The original posts on this topic on the Megaforum were moved to this forum and attached to my original post as a relevant part of the text. I appreciate that and I'm sure everyone else does. Interestingly though, my original post (one from a female's perspective) on this forum was not moved to the Megaforum to become a relevant (and permanent) part of THAT text and it doesn't appear anyone suggested it. Heelfan, I do thank you for your post on the Megaforum referencing my post. Please let me try to explain something here. Serveral people went to very good and lengthy effort in the discussions throughout this thread. As has been pointed out it probably is one of the best threads surrounding this topic to date. Many many times I'm mentioned that it's the "behavior" we are looking at. The two seemingly simplistic examples I outlined above are demonstrated, actions, and behavior that in the very real world interpretation fly straight in the face of all the constructive words and goodwill previously expressed. Please people, I'm not trying to be hard to get along with. I'm pleading for someone to try to understand it's the ACTIONS and BEHAVIOR, not just the words that carry the message to us. I'm not picking on Firefox, he certainly isn't alone, he just happened to make it too easy in this one case for me to demonstrate what I've been expressing for so long. The forums, and most importantly real life, are full of the same twists. Now, throughout this entire thread a great deal has been said with a lot of good intentions. We can only hope the behavior follows suit with the words. Please, go, have a good day and enjoy what you like. Susan _ _ _ __ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ __ __ _ __ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Posted by Susan (the original) on October 27, 2003, 14:03:56, in reply to "experiences" In my text when I mentioned "a woman seeking help", it wasn't me. I became involved with a helpful hand in the struggle of a young lady with many needs. Enough said _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Posted by Arno on October 27, 2003, 20:21:05, in reply to "Re: Just some stuff about deeper issues" Here we go again. She talks of unspecified ACTIONS and BEHAVIOR. I have never been able to pin her down on what ACTIONS and BEHAVIOR she has in mind. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ __ __ _ _ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ _ _ Posted by Laurieheels on October 28, 2003, 2:56:51, in reply to "Re: Just some stuff about deeper issues" I think you've found something and not realized it. Concealment. If he had brought it up and claimed it as no big deal from the start, she may not have cared. Intimate relationships require trust. That's how I feel. Maybe the girlfriend is figuring "well if he is hiding this, what else is he hiding?" The heels take the force of her fury because they are what she found out about, so that's one thing she can attack. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by Heelfan on October 28, 2003, 8:20:56, in reply to "Concealer being more than make-up" Well yes exactly Laurie! It starts emerging on these debates (when these forums can be at their best and most helpful)that an issue which may ultimately be bigger than the guy's heelwearing is where the guy can be TRUSTED in future. TRUST in all its forms is central and pivotal to any relationship. It is far from easy (as I've said in my long analysis here) for us guys to bring ourselves to admit our "quirk" at all, but it HAS to be done as frankly, compassionately and speedily as possible for mutual trust to stand a chance! Mutual trust is far more important in the end than any "quirks" which either party might have in their make-up. Cheerfully yours, Heelfan _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Posted by Bubba136 on October 28, 2003, 13:06:01, in reply to "Re: Concealer being more than make-up" Gosh! I thought I already said all of this. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Yes, maybe, but then, as good as it may have been, it still needs to be translated for those from countries that did not have a revolution and split from the empire. heehee, I am just being silly. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Posted by Susan (the original) on October 28, 2003, 12:08:09, in reply to "Re: Help coping with wife" Hello Bubba - Again, I want to emphasize the refreshing manner of this entire thread has been enlightening and goes a long way toward understanding. I for one am very appreciative of the efforts put forth. Now, I don't want this to be interpreted as any sort of challenge, but only a bit more of an explanation. In your post you singled out two of my comments and stated they were incorrect. I assert that they are correct. I too have re-read all of the posts, actually a number of times, with the same impressions. "Slowly she started accepting it is just a part of me she has to deal with". Now Bubba, please, I'm a woman, how am I supposed to interpret that! If that's not an ultimatum, with demanded obediance, what is it? That is just one of many comments offered that from a woman's view in this discussion, leaves a lot of room for question, and it clearly isn't unreasonable when you've experienced what I have in real life. You're aware of the experiences I'm refering to. There has been a lot of discussion explaining that things must be "talked through" in the situation surrounding the original post on this thread. That's great and I agree with it completely. Again, from a woman, sometime during that "talking things through" that girl IS going to ask, "what happens if I say no". Now, I'm not talking about her getting knocked across the room. It is a very legitimate and sincere question on her part. I opened that door in my original post and no one touched it. Again, how are we supposed to interpret that? This has all been very good, let's see how many are willing to continue "talking things through". Susan _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Posted by Heelfan on October 28, 2003, 13:28:08, in reply to "More understanding" Susan, re, you "ananswered" question, someone has touched on it: me! Here's an extract from my long posting addressing "Pam's" problem (at the foot of this thread) made even before you posted to open the door: "I am pleased to say that in my case and, it seems, in the majority of others, mutual compassion and understanding appear to prevail, and a successful marriage or relationship survives and accommmodates the new element. Sadly, in some other cases it doesn't, and maybe a separation is ultimately all for the best." Personally, I think that sums it up, and we don't need to dwell more on the outcome of the lady saying "No". Cheerfuly yours, Heelfan _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Posted by Susan (the original) on October 29, 2003, 12:47:24, in reply to "Re: More understanding" Yes we do because that's where the "real" problems start, in an entire host of ways. But that's OK, that's in another forum in another place. I'm out numbered 8 to 1 (guys to gals) in this discussion. (Laurie's views differ from mine and our experiences are worlds apart) Heelfan, your long post to this thread is excellent in covering the male interest in heels and you went to great lengths in that effort, asking me and all others to try to understand and appreciate. Now, you did not touch on my question, (what happens when I say no) you don't begin to understand it. You look at it strickly from the male view, completely over looking the reality of the women's view. We want to know what the guy's attitude may be and what he might say during "that" discussion when she says, 'what happens if I say NO'. Some (most) of us women also have a "in-built" thing called emotions, and that can be devastating. In the end, in REALITY, it does come down to a guy's love for a pair of shoes or his love of a woman. Heelfan, you used a lot of good words throughout this discussion, I do appreciate and want to accept them. Let's see if there is any substance to them. One more thing. The woman who walks away from the situation deserves exactly the same respect as anyone else, and the destroyed emotions she carries deserve the same compasion. In the very real REALITY she IS a victim. I have the experience! Susan _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Posted by Heelfan on October 29, 2003, 19:44:13, in reply to "Re: More understanding" No Susan, emphatically I am NOT looking at it strictly from the Man's point of view. That is utterly outrageous! The most unfair and unkind thing for you to have said! Most unkind! My entire message was very clearly and plainly to look at every problem from BOTH party's point of view. I have never been more mis-portayed or mis-quoted in my life. One cannot have the intimacies of being married (as I have) to a woman for over thirty continuous years, and of sharing life with a daughter for over eigthteen continuous years without constantly respecting and being involved in the women's points of view. In such a family situation one becomes not only part of a close knit team but almost thinks as one and acts as one. It is precisely because of this type of wonderful and intimate and loving married life is possible that I am trying as hard as I humanly know to rise above confrontational attitude (siding just with the woman or just with the man, constantly and relentlessly preached by seemingly embittered people like yourself), in order to encourage all-embacing compassion for the man and the woman alike in each and every relationship that comes to the notice of the forum. Your interminable drip-drip-drip of "Up with every woman and down with every man" is tedious, unconstructive, and ultimate utterly negative and unhelpful. The world comprises of similar numbers of BOTH sexes and nothing is achieved by your constant championing of just one sex against the other. Such dogged, blind partisanship is a no more than a disastrous trust-sapping virus. Now, comparative newcomers to the board like myself are told by you and Bubba and others that you have good reason to be embittered by the nasty postings that you received several years ago. We newcomers have all been thoroughly appraised of that in no uncertain terms, and in my case I fully sympathise with all of the shock and hurt that you must have suffered at the time, and the despicable doings of that perpetrator (or those perpetrators) is totally inexcusable. However, we have now reached late 2003 and that disgraceful activity was some time ago, and certainly in the last four of five months since my arrival I have not witnessed a single libellous, solaceous or unacceptably nasty posting against you. In fact, I have been most impressed with the civilised and decorous nature of the postings on the board and the excellent decorum maintained the the moderators Firefox and Laurie. Therefore, whatever depracatory postings have upset you in previous years, they are now history. Myself and many other caring ladies and gentlemen on these forums are putting much time and effort into trying to understand each other (and ourselves!) and little better and to strive towards our mutual happiness. Please Susan, from the bottom of my heart, why can't you let bygones be bygones, loosen your hold on past grievances, and join in with the positive spirit evinced in all of my postings which is that we must show compassion to BOTH the man and the woman in all of these cases. I have every sympathy for your past experiences, and I am sure many others do as well. However, I feel driven to say that it is NOT helping others if, in every single new and fresh debate, as predicatably as clockwork, you start intimating (subtly or otherwise)that man could be some sort of ogre and the woman could be the hapless victim. Your sewing those negative, poisonous thoughts and fears is likely to foster confrontation, misery and break-up, whereas all of the rest of us (virtually without exception) are trying as hard as we know how to encourage openess, increased trust, mutial understanding and ultimately of course, lasting happiness. You have had the terrible shock of losing your husband (probably the most devastating shock which can befall any woman) followed, we understand, by the trauma of receiving nasty posting and hate mail (which is to be utterly deprecated). I hope against hope that these shocks have not turned you into an irrevocable embittered anti-all-men soul. However, if (sadly) they have, then I implore you not to keep the hose of your bitterness turned upon this forum. Firstly it can negate the efforts of the many other well-meaning and constructive members who are trying to help others in a 100% positive way, and secondly (as has happened recently) it can put-off prospective new visitors to the forum from continuing because they find bitterness and negativity to be distasteful. The secret of a successful forum is easy - NICE postings, CONSTRUCTIVE postings, POSITIVE postings, and EQUAL respect for the men and the women on this forum who are writing in for our help. Therein and therein only lies the hope of working towards everyone's happiness! Cheerfully yours, Heelfan _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Posted by Laurieheels on October 30, 2003, 3:33:44, in reply to "Re: Concealer being more than make-up" Yes, maybe, but then, as good as it may have been, it still needs to be translated for those from countries that did not have a revolution and split from the empire. heehee, I am just being silly. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Posted by Bubba136 on October 30, 2003, 14:19:44, in reply to "Re: More understanding" One of Susan's issues is an expressed "anxiousness" about physical abuse triggered by female rejection of male desires. Given that there are a number of cases on record identifying female rejection of a man's desire to wear woman's apparel while engaged in sexual activity as the cause of such abuse, I doubt statistical analysis will reveal a higher number of incidents caused for this reason than for some others -- jealousy being one. However, to broadly paint "all men that wear high heels" as automatic purveyors of physical abuse is like saying that anyone that puts salt on their popcorn is a criminal. The telltale signs that a person -- male or female -- is prone to engaging in physical abuse of any kind are many. People, particularly women, must become better at recognizing when a person is inclined to such behavior and to let them alone if they're unwilling to participate. Another aspect of this situation is the failure of our legal system to protect individuals that have suffered abuse and the punishment of the abusers. Witness the incredibly horrific treatment that Kobe Bryant’s accuser is undergoing at the hands of the press and the court's inability to stop it. This aspect is really Susan’s “Cause Celeb.” In this endeavor, I totally support her and wish her great success. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by Susan (the original) on October 30, 2003, 15:39:50, in reply to "Re: More understanding" Dear Heelfan - You've completely misunderstood. My comment about *looking at it only from a man's point of view* was referring only to my singular question, "what happens if......". I gave you full credit for all you said in your original long post and noted such. Now here we go again, the vicious circle continues. You've spent a lot of time passing judgement on me. No sir, I did not suffer the "shock" of my husband dying. I suffered watching him die over many months as the cancer overwhelmed him. Even during that time he was relentless in his desire and efforts, as best he could, to take care of me and our family, even after he was gone. There is a world of good men out there, I was blessed to be married to one of them, an exceptional one in many ways. I cherish that dearly. If there is one thing I am not, it is an "embittered anti-all-men soul. In your forth paragraph you quoted me, "Up with every woman and down with every man". That sir I never said and it's totally untrue. In YOUR words, it's utterly outrageous and unkind, most unkind. The realities of my experiences go far beyond the events here on the forums, e-mails, and such that you noted. I have a friend, a young woman, who's face (left eye) is permanently disfigured as a result of a beating by her high heel wearing boyfriend (a characteristic she was unaware of) when she said "NO" to his insistance. During my involvement in helping with her needs I learned she wasn't alone in her experience. There's more but I won't bore you with it. It continues today, it's very real, and we won't ignore it. The "hose of bitterness" on these forums is on any and all women who dare not to drop into compliance. Read the forums and see what happens to any woman who dares to defend herself or other women with different views. Look what happened right here. I'm a woman. In this discussion I asked a real and significant question, the very same question any girl might or should ask in the situation we were discussing. People got mad, refused to answer the question, and the attack on me came to pass. Fine, that's exactly what we can expect to happen to the girl when she asks the same question. Heelfan, you can't possibly see my point from a woman's point of view, you have NOT experienced it. In the situation at hand, the man mislead for an extended period of time his true character to his girl friend. There is nothing to indicate he ever intended to tell her. She found out by accident, he told her he would change, knowing it isn't likely he could. Then by the advice here, he's going to change his mind again. I'm going to ask another question from a woman in this open and frank discussion. When is the girl to expect him to start telling the truth? Why should she ever believe him? I'm very serious on that one. History shows we women won't get an answer. Enough - All of this lengthy, seemingly good list of posts throughout the thead and in the end we're right back where we started. If these forums are to grow with interest as it is continuously suggested, ALL women just as ALL men with their individual views must be allowed to speak. Heelfan, over the years and currently, every woman with similiar mind set as mine has been vigorously driven off. I'm not the only woman reading this! It's a beautiful day, I'm going to go enjoy it and I hope everyone else does also. Respectfully (and I mean that) Susan _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Posted by Heelfan on October 30, 2003, 19:47:37, in reply to "Re: More understanding" Dear Susan and Bubba, Thank you for your postings. Cases of physical abuse (knocking about) by males of their female partners are as regrettable, despicable, and hugely sad as any other act of misdeed perpetrated by the human race. Thay are to be regretted, deplored and utterly deprecated by every single decent member of society. Susan recounts again a particularly evil case perpetrated by a heel-wearing man - dreadful and terrible in the extreme! It is then perhaps understandable if (being someone in direct contact with the victim)Susan starts identifying the rest of us male heel-wearing fraternity as potential villains in the same mould. This would be understandable but at the same time, extremely unfortunate. As someone who deplores physical abuse just as much as Susan does, can I point out to her that this despicable phenomenon can and does occur in all types of household totally and utterly irrespective of high heels, and whether the man is a drunkard or a schizophrenic, or is overwhelmed by jealousy or possesses the mind of a tormented soul or of a bully, or is driven by any of countless other mental frenzies or emotions. The problem of physically abusive men is one thing and the phenomenon of thousands of heel-wearing men in this world is quite another. The fact they they happened to coincide in the most unfortunate case quoted by Susan cannot and does not mean that there is any greater (or lesser) percentage of dangerous men amongst heel-wearers than in any other group of males. I am not surprised if witnessing this poor victim's plight were to alientate and caution Susan against us male heel-wearers. However, I can only say that that the vast majority of us are nice, kindly, caring guys who only seek mutual happiness with our wives and girlfriends. There is bound to be a minute percentage of us with a nasty/violent streak, but I am 100% certain that this tiny minority will be no higher that amongst men of any other category, be they carpenters, bank managers, vegetarians, train spotters or followers of any other interest. It would be like saying that if a convicted assassin happened to be a plumber, then all plumbers must be suspected of being assassins! I am asking Susan very sincerely to direct her fears and her condemnations and her defensive zeal purely to the male physical abusers and woman-beaters on this planet, and not towards the many innocent and hapless male heel-wearers in her sad and mistaken belief that they are likely to be the chief danger and the chief culprits. And, if Susan you still feel that I have not answered your question "What happens if the woman says No?": Well, if they have followed our advice and talked-though all the issues and the options as exhaustively as they can without the woman feeling that they have any prospects for continuing mutual happiness together, then, at her request, the only remaining option is for the couple is to separate, sadly but amicably. Cheerfully yours, Heelfan _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Posted by Bubba136 on October 30, 2003, 22:40:25, in reply to "Re: More understanding" Heelfan.. I've been saying the very same thing for months (not as eloquently, however). I hope you have more success with your explanation than the rest of us have had. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ __ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ __ Posted by Susan (the original) on October 31, 2003, 3:13:58, in reply to "Re: More understanding" First, I thank you Heelfan for your answer to my question. We were hoping for a little more of an emotional answer but I suppose that's because we see it from more of an emotional reality. Again, I thank you, you gave me a specific answer to a specific question as you perceived it. Bubba, in your earlier post you mentioned there are tell tail signs of potential abuse. That is precisely the reality that has our attention. In those one on one instances, at the first inclination of an adversarial, aggressive, or argumentative attitude of any manner, in conflict with the woman's expressed personal values, the potential for a deteriating situation is evident. It doesn't make any difference if he is a drunk or he insists on wearing high heels. If it's unacceptable to her, it's unacceptable, period. As both you and I pointed out in earlier posts, the gentleman certainly has the same perogative of what is acceptable to him. I can legitimately and realistically place myself in a fictional scenario similar to the situation in this thread. Honestly, I don't even want to think about it. On the issue of "all" high heel wearing men, the idea that all of them are vicious is certainly obsurd. Bubba, I'm a little saddened that after all this time you misunderstand that in me. At the same time I believe you know that I've "never" placed a derogatory identity or resorted to name calling of those male heel wearers. There isn't enough room on this page to list everything I've been called, solely because of who I am. I believe you know that also. There's a lessen in that reality. If there ever was a thread on this forum that should be put in some kind of archive this one is it. With the sensitive nature of the subject matter, everyone involved expressed their point, it was quite lengthy, and it seems to have ended with a sense of civility and a little more understanding by everyone. Patience is a virtue! Thank you Susan -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted by Heelfan on October 31, 2003, 6:49:57, in reply to "association / attitudes" Well, a CONCENSUS between us all, thank the Lord! Cheerfully yours, Heelfan _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Onwards and upwards! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genebujold Posted November 2, 2003 Share Posted November 2, 2003 We all know that it is the womans decision as to whether she accepts it or not. This is why we are looking at how to tread carefully on the run in, because we know that ultimately, the girl we like/love etc may be through the door with what we have to say. I agree with hfan that the inner part for heels will not leave. ive tried disgarding old pairs of my heels and i always ended up getting some more again. Its like a secret feeling that comes back to make you need it again. I agree - it's a part of who you are, but only to a point. Everything we do is behavior, whether it's wearing heels, drinking wine, enjoying movies on the big screen, or even more addictive behaviors. If one behavior (spitting on the floor) was a show-stopper to one's significant other, you'd have a choice - modify or stop the behavior, or accept the fact that your SO would modify or stop the relationship. Let's turn the tables - if my SO had a thing about dating others, she would no longer be my SO - and she has the same rule for me! Most couples have similar rules, and the behaviors involved run the gamut from picking one's nails to, well, you name it. Men choosing to wear heels is no different in concept than men choosing to wear skirts, or to get their ears pierced, or women choosing to wear leathers, or whether to work for company A or company B. They're all choices. Sometimes we feel we can live without something we enjoy with little heartache. Other times we feel like we can't live without that something, period. Personally, if my SO came up to me and one day asked me to dump my heels and skirts in the trash, I'd respond with "sure, honey - could I please finish my breakfast, or is it that important to you?" Perhaps I'm funny that way, but people, like my wife, just mean a whole heck of a lot more to me than a pair of shoes! I cannot believe it when I read posts where someone seems caught between keeping the girlfriend/wife or the heels. I feel like saying, "hello, McFly!" Are going to marry your heels? Going to raise a family with them? Who's the host mother going to be? Grow old and gray with them? I propose the following acid test for relationships: ask yourself if you're willing to give up your most precious possession (heels or otherwise) for that individual. If the answer is no, then move on, as they obviously don't mean as much to you as they should. If you wind up old and lonely, you might begin to realize perhaps you were too into your "thing" and not enough into reality/society/friends/family/others (take your pick). I realize the above probably offends some of you. Unfortunately, the rapid deterioration of the fabric of society over the last three decades offends me, and I believe the foremost factor is that people have placed far more emphasis on themselves and their things than is good for either themselves or society. Their choice? You bet. But the consequences are unquestionable, nevertheless. Yes - I like wearing heels. And skirts. And I like the pain-free ability to walk (I've got a bad ankle that just doesn't work right on flat ground). But I like snuggling with my lover next to the fireplace far more. I like taking long walks with her more. I like seeing a smile on her face more. I'm dang glad she accepts / approves my discrete wearing of heels. But I'd gladly throw them in the trash and wouldn't look back if it meant keeping her and keeping her happy. People are worth it. Things are not. But then, that's my opinion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sscotty727 Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 To answer Susan's Question: I did actually tell my wife (gf) when we VERY first started dating about my feelings on high heels. Like alot of women she was upset, terrified and did ask all the questions (are you gay, want to become a woman, wear full drag, etc). I answered all her questions. We TALKED, alot about the heels. I even did try (sincerely) to give them up for a while. My passion for them didn't leave me, I suppressed them for her. She could see I was somewhat miserable (I won't say totally miserable since I did and always will love her more), but if her answer was no it was no. I never demanded she change or accept it, but we did talk it out alot. What came about is mutal compromise and understanding, not forced "You will accept it and like it or else". I would never do that to her, as it has been said before, it has to be mutual. When I said she has come to accept it as a part of me, I mean over MANY years over MANY peaceful conversations. Yes I usually brought up the topic, but we talked it out completely. Matter of fact, I wear toerings too and even that topic (which is acceptable on men) I didn't wear until we talked it out and I got her blessing. I only started to wear heels outside and not too femine looking at that. Before I started, I told her I found this website (I didn't try to hide it from her) and I mentioned the advice of lower less masculine looking heels. She was ok with it and helped me shop and pick out heels. The higher boots I am now wearing (3 1/2 inch heels) I got with her blessing. She helped me pick out pants I could wear them with so they would be less obvious. When we recently went on a dinner cruise for our anniversary, I wore my 2inch heels. I ASKED her first if it would be ok for me to do so. If she had said no, I would have worn something else. This isn't to suggest I am "whipped" as a man. It says I respect her as a person and if she doesn't like the idea, I won't do it. Period. It doesn't mean I won't ask her or get her involved. Also it does show that opinions can also change over time. The same woman broke off our dating when we first met cause I wore heels now is ok with me wearing heels out. That doesn't mean I demaned our pushed her into it. It means we talked and communicated for years to come to a mutal understanding. If she never would have accepted me in heels, I would not be wearing them, plain and simple. Scotty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heelfan Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Dear Genebujold, You stated above that a guy's decision to give up heel-wearing can be done just as easily as deciding not to have his ears pierced or whether to work for company A or B. This shows that you do do have the SLIGHTEST IDEA of what it is like for some of us that are gripped by an all-consuming high heel fetish. The whole point is that it is NOT as easy as turning off a tap, and that even when we do try to repress it, it smoulders away make us tetchy and unliveable-with for our wives and partners unless we release our tensions by re-indulging it it. Perhaps you did not read that part of my main posting above, so let me repeat it: "Most of us are straight (or pretty-well straight) ie not gay. Most of us find that(through no initial choice of our own, it seems) we have an inbuilt "thing" about high heels - in all cases re. admiring them on women, and in an amazingly large number of more extreme cases like mine, re. actually wearing them to share the experience. Most of us, notwithstanding our "thing" about heels, regard ourselves as being 100% masculine and 100% keen on finding and loving another woman and NOT another man. There our countless happy marriages and relationships involving a heel-wearing man to attest to this. All of us find that, through no fault of our own, we are "stuck" with it for life. To quote the highly intelligent and learned Highluc - it is NOT a disease, it cannot be medically cured, and whether we like it or not, it will NEVER GO AWAY. Now then, what do we straight, heelwearing guys do? We all want happy, straight relationships with a loving woman (like mine), but we are all scared stiff that our "thing" (which we cannot lose) will maybe horrify, maybe repulse and maybe lose our wonderful lady whom we love and to whom are so very attracted. The superficial answer is to say "If you love and cherish your lady then simply banish all heel interests". Well yes! Absolutely! We all love and cherish our ladies more than inanimate objects like shoes, and many of us have have tried ditching our collections and suppressing our kinky urge. BUT IT NEVER WORKS! The forums have shown that time after time, male heel-wearers have tried this, often repeatedly in their anxiety to be fully "normal" husbands, but they are confounded to find that their urge remains. It may be ostensibly repressed for a while - many weeks, many months, or even several years, but it is always smouldering there despite all endeavours, waiting to re-ignite and burst back out. And often in the meantime, it makes the man difficult to live with. He finds himself feeling somehow repressed, unfulfilled, grouchy and tetchy, which doesn't help anyone. I ask Susan and all other ladies on these forums to try and appreciate the problems that encumber we men who find that we have an inbuilt "heel thing" in addition to seeking a loving man/woman relationship. It is a huge, virtually impossible-to-control inbuilt compulsion that is nothing to do with wanting to look effeminite! We do not choose to take it up like stamp-collecting, nor can we (and this is what we beg all women to try and understand) give it up like stamp-collecting. No-one seems to understand (I certainly don't) why a large number of us have it, but it is just there to be coped-with - inbuilt into us through no optional choice or fault of our own. Should we all hold back from our loving desires to fraternise with the opposite sex and live a celibate monastic existance as social lepars? Or should we try to gain the understanding of our girlfriends and wives and work it through in search of preserving our mutual happiness?" Now then Gene, that summary of the "Thing" or "Fetish" or "Affliction" or whatever else people want to call it is born out by the writings and postings of an amazingly large number of other guys with the same problem. I am sure that they would all agree with me that your above answer comes across as glib and flippant and fails to understand the huge inbuilt depth of the problem. Do you think there are ANY of us who haven't tried using logic on ourselves and haven't argued that our ladies are more important than our heels? Of course we have! Time and time again! But the "thing" obsesses us, is as deep-seated within us as our hearts or our lungs. It doesn't respond to logic and it will NEVER GO AWAY, much as some of us would like it to. For another classic and most erudite account of this, log into Highluc's high heel site ("Highluc" on your search engine should be sufficient) and read his account of his own experiences and his analysis of the "Heel thing" which consumes some of us guys. If, hitherto, you haven't grasped the sheer depth and all-consuming hold that an object-fetish can have upon people, then you haven't got it yourself, or if you have, then only in the mildest of forms compared with some of us. To fail to recognise that it WON'T GO AWAY is to fail to have a true understanding of the problem. Those of us who do understand the problem (usually by having been lumbered with it) almost invariably conclude that it can NOT be solved by trying to banish and suppress or shoeie passions, but only by seeking the understanding and compassion of our wives/partners/girlfriends. If the latter is done honestly and frankly and as quickly as possible, then the best that can be hoped is a workable relationship where the guy's activities are understood and accepted to an mutually agreed extent by the female. This has worked successfully in my case and in many, many others. But inevitably there will be sad separations in other cases where the woman cannot bring herself to accept this quirk which is immutably built into the guy. Were that life were as simple as your saying "Just get rid of the shoes"! Cheerfully yours, Heelfan Onwards and upwards! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sscotty727 Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Hi All, First of all, I agree that is and always will be part of you. What I am stating is that you have to decide if your heels or your wife/girlfriend is more important (assuming she disagrees with you wearing heels). As Susan said, and I fully agree, you can not force someone to change/accept anything, either they do or they don't. I think what most of us are suggesting is understanding why he wants to wear the shoes and why she is against it. It all starts with open honest communication on both parts. In my case it wasn't that she was against the fashion statement, but more fear of what bigger things it could lead to. Also, she does fear what others might think of they saw me wearing heels in public. I have to respect her and her wishes on that or else I am also being unfair in our marriage. Where we started on all this and where we are today took 17 years of open honest communcation. We tried the throwing away don't go back to heels approach. I did it because I love her and wanted to respect her wishes. Yes I ended up buying again, but only after talking it over with her and US understanding things TOGETHER. To summarize 17 years of communication on 1 post in a group is impossible, however the main thing is open honest communication. Where I think Pam got in trouble is hiding things from his girlfriend, although I can understand his feelings on why he did this. What atleast I suggested to him was not to try to force her or even move her into accepting his desires. What I was suggesting is to come clean, be open and honest and talk it out. Where the relationship goes from there is between THEM, not any of us. I can only offer how things went in my own relationship, everyone is different. Fortunately in my case, we were able to talk things through alot and were able to overcome in a mutal fashion what she can accept and what I can accept. If she hadn't been accepting of me wearing heels, public or private, then I would have given them up for her. Yes I would have felt something missing in the form of not being able to wear heels, but losing her love would have been much more devistating and in the end, being without her in heels is far more unacceptable than being with her without heels. Like I said, fortunately over 17 years (4 dating, 13 married) we have worked through things. It didn't happen overnight, and it took BOTH of us to give and take, listen and talk. In the end, that is the only way you can solve problems in any relationship. Scotty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 This is really an intresting topic! Heelfan has it right, you can't stop it no matter how you try. 50 years of experience has proven that to me. I think its best to get it out in the open as soon as possible and set your own style, a style that your partner and you can live with. In my christian experience it has tended to make me much less jugemental, you just never know what another is going thru. Thank God my afliction has to do with heeled boots, there are many, many worse things, I can only feel for thoes people who have them and who hide them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubba136 Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Yes, I agree. Heelsfan has it right. You can discuss this issue for days on end and in as many different ways as there are guys wearing heels and you won't find a more well thought out, well presented, succinct explanation than this. I know there are degrees of fanaticism, some more acute than others. And, there are degrees of acceptance on the part of our partners, some more accepting than others. However, the basics of the issue are scattered throughout this entire thread. Some of them made repeatedly. But, what you really have is a "primer" answering many of the questions people have on men wearing high heels as well as advice on how to handle the issue. While not touching on the psychological aspects and "where the desire was born," which is a whole different discussion (can of worms?) -- and one that I don't believe anyone of us here is qualified to address -- I, for one, would like to see the contents of this thread condensed and re-presented in the singular form of advice on how to handle this issue for those yet to come. Anyone up to the task ? Being mentally comfortable in your own mind is the key to wearing heels in public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slim Posted November 3, 2003 Share Posted November 3, 2003 Well Bubba: I strongly believe the infatuation starts with some physical need, beyond that it may have roots in dyslexia and attention deficit disorder, at least in my case as I seem to have all of the above. The physical need was brought home when I started having leg and back pain and found a heeled boot helped. A trip to a specialist absolutely confirmed the problem, as he forced my foot into an extreme high-heeled shape, to make sure I got the message, and told me it was what I needed. Beyond the physical, heels do slow me down and make it much easer to consecrate, something I’ve always had problems with. As with most dyslexics, I just see things differently than those with out it; heels just look good to me. At a party I was at the other night I was talking to a woman friend who was wearing an old pair of high-heeled (3½”) cowboys. We were comparing them to the pointed toe spike heeled (4½”) boot I had on. We both agreed that both boots just looked snazzy, and they do, at least to us high-heeled types. (And yes, my wife was at the party too, it was a church outing). However, it dosn't really matter what caused this infatuation, the fact is its there and thats that. Just get on with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jo Posted November 9, 2003 Share Posted November 9, 2003 I wasn't going to post anything in this thread, but in response to something in another thread here on this forum, I came across this: http://www.tri-ess.org/Wives_CDs_BofR.html Discuss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genebujold Posted November 23, 2003 Share Posted November 23, 2003 Dear Genebujold, You stated above that a guy's decision to give up heel-wearing can be done just as easily as deciding not to have his ears pierced or whether to work for company A or B. This shows that you do do have the SLIGHTEST IDEA of what it is like for some of us that are gripped by an all-consuming high heel fetish. Cheerfully yours, Heelfan I though I responded to this one already...? Regardless - your assuming I "haven't the slightest idea" is unbelievably presumptous. Addiction is addiction - the same pathways established in the brain in response to elevated system response to cocaine are the same ones established by organism, alcohol, and sexually-related indulgances, such as pornography, and, yes - fetish/CD activities. The CAT scans prove it. So don't believe for a second that high-heel fetishers have some sort of unique claim to addictions - they don't. Any thoughts to the contrary are foolish and totally ignore the rather vast amount of scientific discovery over the past 25 into the inner workings of the brain. My point was not to compare the different things an individual might choose to forego. Rather, it was to draw attention to the fact that most of us get very few chances at landing a lifetime partner with whom we're very compatible; that there are dozens of facets to that relationship (of which high-heel wear is but one); and that at some point, the mature individual may have to face the choice between heel wear and relationship. Those who believe heel-wear is more important than relationship are indeed seriously addicted and should check into the nearest addiction treatment facility immediately, as they're little different than the alcoholic who's willing to loose wife, family, and job just to glimpse the bottom of another bottle. Those who like heel-wear, but can take it or leave it depending upon the circumstances around them are like the individual who likes to drink socially, but is willing to do without out of respect for his wife who was raised by an abusive drunken father. In either case (heels / the bottle vs a relationship), it's always a choice between the inanimate and the most precious gift we could have. Many people choose (or rather, are enslaved to) the inanimate. Although I respect their choice, I cannot agree with it, and maintain they'd be much healthier to learn to let go the inanimate and embrace the animate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heelfan Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 No, Genejubold, in the vast majority of cases it's NOT a choice between the cherished lady and the heels. Many of us have proved that, if handled properly with compassion and sensitivity, it is possible to enjoy a happy marriage/relationship containing BOTH. That is what posting after posting on these forums by many people has been all about. Being honest with ones partner, telling her everything and telling her early in the relationship, and working-out a very happy and loving life together, heels and all. Now, there will always be the odd Susan-the-Original who is repelled by heel-wearing males, in which case their views must be established as early in the relationship as possible. In these unfortunate cases, the only probable options are either for the man to give up heels (at the risk of being withdrawn, sulky and tetchy whilst repressing the urge) or to accept the inevitably of a separation, albeit we hope, an amicable one. But the vast majority, including me, have successfully embraced their "heely thing" into a happy marriage or relationship. It can be done only by frank and considerate discussion, and this is the proper, decent and only fair path to take with ones lady companion. Cheerfully yours, Heelfan Onwards and upwards! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubba136 Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 Always a tricky question. Her personality as well as her rearing and the training she received during childhood have a lot to do with it. While I agree with Heelfan's statement that Many of us have proved that, if handled properly with compassion and sensitivity, it is possible to enjoy a happy marriage/relationship containing BOTH. is true for, perhaps, 65% of the male heel-wearing membership of this forum, I would say that we are the exception rather than the rule within the general population. Once again, the advice of Being honest with ones partner, telling her everything and telling her early in the relationship is the key to unraveling your prospective partner's attitude. Once her attitude and feelings are known, then the choice is yours. If she responds negatively, then your analysis of your feelings about high heels and depth of your caring for her form the basis of your decision on whether or not you try to quit and abide by her sentiments. I discovered years ago that I couldn't quit wearing high heels for any reason, short of physically losing my feet. No matter how hard I tried. Perhaps some of the men here are stronger than me and can voluntarily quit without significantly altering their personality, but I can't. And, like Heelfan alluded, we've - me and my wife - managed to work through my idiosyncrasy and, so far (28 years), have had "a very happy and loving life together, heels and all." Being mentally comfortable in your own mind is the key to wearing heels in public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genebujold Posted November 26, 2003 Share Posted November 26, 2003 No, Genejubold, in the vast majority of cases it's NOT a choice between the cherished lady and the heels. Cheerfully yours, Heelfan Heelfan, I was referring to cases where a decision must be made. In those cases, there is little option but to make a decision. In most cases, you are correct - no decision needs to be made, as the lady is open enough to accept both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Posted January 7, 2004 Author Share Posted January 7, 2004 just wanted to revive the thread since it has very useful info! Pam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wineanddine Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 First time post so please excuse any obvious blunders. This topic was so long I read as much as I could but not everything. It seemed the one common thread among all of the well thought out comments is that there is no "one size fits all" answer to this. And maybe that is the way it should be and the reason we share our own personal experiences here, because while all of our situations are different, they all share certain commonalities. Wine and dine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver8 Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 Fascinating thread. How I regret having missed another session of Original Susan's male bashing and insinuated correlations between wearing heels and beating women. I wonder how many women would give up any article of clothing their husbands didn't "permit" them to wear. But Pam, how are things going? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris100575 Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 Who's Susan Original? By the sounds of it not somebody I've missed anything by not meeting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffM Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 Hi Chris I have "met" Susan (the origional) through Jennys site and then this one. I have found her to be a most gracious lady. That doesnt mean I agree with her in every thing. So I would suggest you read about her in her posts and make up your own mind, and not take other opinions about her on board. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubba136 Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 Susan the Original is a woman whose opinions don't set well with the liberal mindset of most of the posters on this forum. In fact, she is probably the only person that has been banned from posting here because she became what was preceived as "combative" when people took her comments out of context and chose to "gang up" on her to prove that she was an "imbecile" by defending her opinions and for trying to get people to place them in the proper context -- which, with this crowd is "verboten." The forum lost a valuable asset when she was banned. However, I would venture to say that people like Driver8 would say that the forum is a lot better place without her. But then Susan was a regular at Jennys website and chat room for over 5 years (and managed to attract a lot of admirers) and Driver8, just a member of this forum for a few months. So, what can I say. Being mentally comfortable in your own mind is the key to wearing heels in public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azraelle Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 One, and only thought, which I discovered was brought up earlier than me by Laurie: "Pam" might have been able to get his gf to have seen his side of things by directing her to this (or Jenny's) site, except for one truly egregious mistake on his part: How can he possibly expect to have any credulity as a (masculine, virile, worth-knowing) male when he signs his name as "Pam"? Not that I am claiming virtuosity in this regard, but in my case, at least from my viewpoint, "Azraelle" doesn't sound or look any more feminine than my parents' choice for my given first name of "Alma", which I have sincerely detested for at least 41 of my 51 years. It has only been out of respect for them, that I haven't changed it legally. I assume that your given name isn't "Sue" or some such equally femmie name as "Pam"? "All that you can decide, is what to do with the time that is given you."--Gandalf, "Life is not tried, it is merely survived -If you're standing outside the fire."--Garth Brooks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandy Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 This indeed has been a very interesting thread. I wonder how I missed it last year. In light of tone of the previous posts I would like to add my story. It might proved some help to others. In 1995 my second marriage broke up. One of the underlying issues was some of my clothing choices. It provided an undercurrent that was never addressed in any of our discussions. There is the question of honesty, why did I not tell her about things. Well that answer is easy 'cause I myself did not know those desires were there. At the time they were just breaking the surface. I start's innocently enough. Just out of noticing the cut of a garment and asking the question "I wonder..." trying it on and discovering that not only did it fit, it felt good, and looked good. With the immediate reaction from the spouse "YOU'RE NOT GOING TO WEAR "THAT!"" This was an interest that surfaced late in life. There were echoes of the desires in the pre-teen and teen years, but they lay dormant. I could easily have used those kinda of remarks to carry on a fight but I did not 'cause I cared too much for the Lady and did not want to loose her. Instead I turned the feelings inward and bit my tongue. Flash forward several years. I could not assuage her fears 'cause I did not understand "Brandy". I could not give her, the words she need to hear 'cause I did not have them myself. I did not understand who Brandy was, or where Brandy was going and it scared Brandy himself. One thing Brandy knew was that the conventional wisdom and counselor's were wrong. All of these things were pushed to the back to deal with the then current problems. As it turned out the actual problems were much deeper, the arguments over clothes were only symptoms of much deeper problems. Eventually we separated after 11 years, divorce followed a few years later. It was a time of very deep soul search, very deep anger, and a lot of confusion. I went into autopilot. Did some dumb things and eventually got on the Internet. One thing that did happen I started dressing the way I wanted, it felt good and at the same time I was very ashamed of myself, I was coming to crisis. Before the separation: Over a period of time I discovered that pantyhose had social redeeming value, I crashed heavily on my bicycle and had really bad road rash. Pantyhose took the pain out of the road rash. I also discovered some women's underwear was actually much more comfortable than the plain white boring men's stuff. After the separation: I went to the Exotic Erotic Ball in San Francisco, in heels and discovered the heels actually greatly lessened my back pain, and they looked really cool. I discovered bodysuits how comfortable they are and I finally discovered skirts, and how really comfortable they are. I also really liked how a skirt looks when all dressed up. Then I started to really get angry over the social mores that seem to say your a man, YOU are not allowed to enjoy those things. For a long time I could hear the ex-wife berating me for my choice of attire. I got on the internet and spent hours surfing the web sites, I found the TV/TG/CD sites and spent a year thinking that was what I was, but still, it did not feel right I had none of the feelings those people were expressing. To this day I remember the tremendous relieve I felt when I discovered Chris's Atrium and Tom's Café. I had found out what I was, just a man in a skirt nothing more, nothing less. And then I discovered this forum High Heel Place. Here were all of the groups of people that felt as I do. In the process there was another deeper discovery that there was/is a problem of alcohol abuse in my family and the -ism's were killing me. What do I mean, the best illustration I can think of: they are called Work-A-holics for a reason. It is still substance abuse just that they use work to avoid dealing with their personal problems. A substance is not needed for abuse to happen, it is a personality problem. There is the abuser and the co-dependent. I'm the co-dependant. Added in was this love of women's clothes and since real men did not desire nor wear women's clothes there was that conflict. About that time I met a lady who taught me that clothes have no genes and the only person I needed permission from was myself. Easier said than done. I needed to get over the self-hatred and accept all of me and not reject part. Rejecting part of myself was/is self-destructive. However now I am more concerned about how I looked do I present well, since I will be noticed even if there are no comments a good impression will be left "Did you see that guy in the skirt and heels? He looked sharp!" Honesty, what you see is what you get. The skirts, heels, pantyhose, bodysuits come as part of the package. I do not ask the Lady to not wear trousers, what she wear's is her choice, what I wear is my choice. If she would be upset with me asking her not to wear trousers, how can she expect me not to be upset if asked not to wear skirts? --- Brandy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firefox Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 Just to set matters straight on Susan. She was never banned from here (hhplace). She had many problems with access to the board or some reason we were not able to ascertain. If anyone doubts me in that, they an contact Jeff who has a deeper level of access than me on this server. She was banned for one year from Jenny's forum. The reason was, that I discussed the matter of her confrontational litigation related posts with her (and others) on email. I put it to her that many members had complained to me that this was ruining the board. I'd asked that this type of matter could be taken off the board to email in deference to requests from members. In spite of that, two weeks later she decided to continue in the same manner. So, I thought I had no option other than to ban her for a while. That was a hard decision because Susan has some other great qualities and knowledge. She knows, what 95% of other board members never will, about a life dedicated to wearing heels. Was I right or wrong? You can always PM with your opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubba136 Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 Thanks for your explanation, Firefox. It nicely clears the air around this subject. Being mentally comfortable in your own mind is the key to wearing heels in public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genebujold Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 I wonder how many women would give up any article of clothing their husbands didn't "permit" them to wear. Now that's a very intriguing response! "Ok, honey - I understand you're saying you don't like me wearing heels or women's shoes in general. But to be fair, there are some articles of clothing I don't like seeing you wear, either. Yes, honey, it's the pants. I mean, women throughout history never wore pants, until this century, but men have worn skirts and dresses throughout history - even heels, so... if I get rid of the heels, then would you be willing to stick to skirts and dresses?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris100575 Posted January 12, 2004 Share Posted January 12, 2004 Hi Chris I have "met" Susan (the origional) through Jennys site and then this one. I have found her to be a most gracious lady. That doesnt mean I agree with her in every thing. So I would suggest you read about her in her posts and make up your own mind, and not take other opinions about her on board. Jeff Fair point. I haven't been able to find the post in question, but if she ever returns, I'll take her as I find her with no preconception. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Posted January 12, 2004 Author Share Posted January 12, 2004 Thanks driver, firefox and all for the follow-up! Let me give you some history before updating the status, it may help to clarify some things...I will try to explain it from her perspective I will say Pam is a girl that semi-xdress at times, enjoys wearing female clothing, but not all at the same time. Passing as a woman is not of a high turn on. It is just wearing some items of clothing that really make her day! She has always been attracted to several clothing like heels, skirts, stockings, etc since very young. She had a girlfriend for a long period of time - 6 years, let's call her V, that was a catalyzer of her dressing. This person was very important in her life, one of the most loved ones. During this time she had time to experience all kinds of female clothing and items. Dressing was a big part of their sexual life. But also the most important part of this stage was the discovery that full dressing was fun, but not necessary to be 100% fulfilled. After this girlfriend, V, dressing up ended. It was not until after she left home for her masters that the idea of dressing up came back. During school, she lived with C for almost a year. This was a bad relationship, but C suggested wearing makeup and heels a couple of times for fun. This happened twice, but the relationship was sooo bad, that even dressing was not fun anymore. Two years passed by and Pam was living in NYC! New job, new life. The desire of dressing was there, but passive...she had no clothes, and her life was pretty much in pause. At that time she met G, who was living in another country and had been her biggest crush ever. But she also met S, a lovely girl in NY. It turn that Pam and S began a very nice relationship, and this is where S was very encouraging of role playing. This is when she bought knee-highs, pumps, and the cutest 5-inch sandals! S was the one to create Pam, she was very encouraging of her dressing, and she even took her for her first outing in heels! However, on trips back home...G was present. Event though Pam never cheated,, her mind and heart was with G. Following her heart, Pam broke up with S and went with G. Long story short Pam and G got married. Pam was very fond of looking for people like her on the web. One day G found her history of "websites" and that is when this thread started! Here is the update ... We had many long conversations with the logic line of questioning about my sexual preference, etc. It took me a long time to understand things from HER perspective, plus all the other burden she was going through at the same time. Newly wed, moving to another country, jobless, away from her family, etc. G needed TIME to digest all things and understand how everything fitted together, not only the heels! During this time, Pam and I needed to reevaluate and think also, again not only the heels, but all of our new life. So now G know about me liking to wear female clothes. She is not happy, but she knows.... and this not being a secret is half of the battle. Things are slowly progressing, during winter I have been wearing tights and she even bought me some women's tops to wear under my shirts. She know that I have a pair of 4 inch stiletto boots, she knows that I own many pairs of sexy underwear...but she is getting used to it, at her own pace. I really want this marriage to work so I am committed to make it work, but based on honesty! Pam comes and goes, she is there...and always be and I am sure one day G will get to know her. G is still with me!!! Firefox is very right when he said that Pam is a she, and it does not reflect the idea of a guy wearing heels. The main reason why G does not know Pam is that Pam was created as part of another relationship. This can create problems....Pam is slowly being "re-created" by G. Sorry for the long reply!!!! and again thanks for listening...this forum has played a very important part lately in my life! Pam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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