FGWJON Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 hi all,this week i have been posted to another location to cover a colleague who is on leave.Where i am working this week i am the only member of staff & my job involves direct face to face contact with the public.I have been "timid" about wearing heels in public before(although have done it) so i thought i would take the oppurtunity to try more outdoor wear.I have taken two pairs of boots with me,which i have been alternating,have opted for a 2" block heel pair & a 2 1/2" wedge heel pair.(dare not wear anything higher as there may be a safety issue,also i would be in breach of company rules regarding uniform).Have found that i have got no reaction at all from customers,indeed forgot i was wearing heels at all today, have just spent a blissful 11 hour day in the wedges!!! Any tips/ suggestions as to how i can make this a more regular thing,it feels great!!!!!!!! keen to meet other uk male heel wearers to try & boost my confidence to wear heels in public Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sscotty727 Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 Hi FGWJON, I too am trying to figure out how to be more "bold" at work. I am a computer consultant with DoD and work on an Army base, so I have to be very careful here. For the past 3 weeks, I have been wearing these shoe boots to work with "hidden heels" inside them which make them like wearing 3 to 3 1/2 inch heels. I have gotten zero reaction, and I have been in meetings with customers as well. I wore my 3 1/2 inch boots I got from www.bakersshoes.com in the car drive in today, but chickened out at the last minute and changed into my 2 inch shoes from JC Pennys. I might look for a pair of longer pants and try the boots again. Good luck! Scotty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mk4625 Posted October 15, 2003 Share Posted October 15, 2003 I have not worked in the defense industry for over 13 years so I am not familiar with the current attitudes. I recall that there were some comical situations, for example a security officer became alarmed upon hearing that one of my professors at the university was born in mainland China. A gay coworker took more than 3 years to get his SI/TK clearance. However I don't believe that the people in charge of conducting background investigations would have been capable of distinguishing between a man who is gay and one who simply likes to wear women's shoes. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sscotty727 Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 I just went out tonight and bought longer pants. I plan on wearing my new 3 1/2 inch boots tomorrow at work (if I don't chicken out). Scotty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genebujold Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 I have not worked in the defense industry for over 13 years so I am not familiar with the current attitudes. I recall that there were some comical situations, for example a security officer became alarmed upon hearing that one of my professors at the university was born in mainland China. A gay coworker took more than 3 years to get his SI/TK clearance. However I don't believe that the people in charge of conducting background investigations would have been capable of distinguishing between a man who is gay and one who simply likes to wear women's shoes. I do contract work for the industry, and I can say that attitudes are indeed changing. For example, a decade ago, you'd never see earring holes in a serviceman's lobes. Now it's quite common. Although deviating from the uniform is prohibited for those on active duty, the guard, and the reserves, contractors can wear pretty much whatever's within the contracted company's clothing policy. Still, because of the environment and the fact that a lot of contractors are ex-servicemembers, most people toe the line and dress very conservatively. Not all, however. I've seen one guy wearing 4-in stilleto-heeled boots, and another wearing a pair of high-heeled chunk boots. When I asked the stilleto's office mates about the clothing policy, they just shook their heads, looking embarrassed, and said there was nothing that could be done because there was no prohibition against wearing heels specified in that company's employment contract. The guy wearing chunk boots was a GS employee, and I suppose they have a similar lack of prohibitions - probably because it's never been an issue. As for security clearances, the main issue there is not so much the activity, but rather, whether anyone could coerce the worker by threatening to make that info public. However, there's still an issue with certain kinds of activity - essentially anything that's listed in the DSM IV as abnormal. And, sadly, crossdressing (along with all transgender behaviors) is listed as "abnormal." Nevertheless, this doesn't mean the individual won't eventually obtain the clearance. I do know of one individual who's a post-op transexual holding a TS job. And that individual worked there prior to her transitioning, as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubba136 Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 I would imagin it would be hard to coerce someone because of their habits if they were already out of the closet. If everyone is already aware, what is their to threaten? If someone tried to coerce me I just would report the attempt and let them explain to the FBI what they were trying to do. It would make sense to me that security agencies would let the person know they are aware of his/her activities so the prospect of coercion disappears and the subject could get on with doing the job he was hired to do without all that pressure. Being mentally comfortable in your own mind is the key to wearing heels in public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sscotty727 Posted October 16, 2003 Share Posted October 16, 2003 Hi Bubba/Gene, I am actually not so concerned about a security clearance, I actually don't have one and don't need one for what I do. My main concern is perception, which is big here. They sometimes do reject consultants here based on their perception/view of the individual (although I have been on this contract for going on 3 years so I don't think that is TOO big a concern). My biggest issue is how I will be perceived in regards to representing my company. I work for a very large software company and as someone stated in a prior thread, when they see me they see the company and company image. If I were an independant contractor that would be a different issue. As far as what you said about a security clearance, I know someone that used to do them and they told me the major key is can you be blackmailed. If your answer is no, then in most cases, even things you would think are the biggest issues aren't. Of course people could say they can't be blackmailed to get the clearance and then succom to it, but I guess there is risk in anything. Scotty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubba136 Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Sscotty, I guess what they say is good advice: "honesty is always the best policy." If you admit it up front you can't be held responsible for any detrimental consequences later. In your case however, I guess it would be how your employeer viewed the image you presented. If they thought you didn't present the image they wanted, then you'd be history..... So, I'd be careful. I wouldn't go overboard. But then, it depends on how much you want this job. Being mentally comfortable in your own mind is the key to wearing heels in public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sscotty727 Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 I think where I am is about as far as I will go with this at work, and even then I will fall back to lower heels on occasions. I think with the thicker heels it doesn't look that bad, however when I go to new customers or have a customer meeting or a company meeting, I will probably go bac to my 2" heels (they actually look VERY natural, even if you can see the heel). I didn't mean to steel this thread from FGWJON though and would be interested to see how he is fairing. Has there been any advice presented that helps you out? Scotty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genebujold Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 I would imagin it would be hard to coerce someone because of their habits if they were already out of the closet. If everyone is already aware, what is their to threaten? If someone tried to coerce me I just would report the attempt and let them explain to the FBI what they were trying to do. It would make sense to me that security agencies would let the person know they are aware of his/her activities so the prospect of coercion disappears and the subject could get on with doing the job he was hired to do without all that pressure. The issue is this: 1. If you're not out of the closet, and you don't report it to the investigative security agency (which is not the FBI, by the way), then they'll eventually find out anyway and you'll loose your security clearance, along with your job. 2 If you are out of the closet, but only in a non-pubic way, then it's up to the birds to prevent if from becoming free of som esooond... Ah... That's hawweei Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sscotty727 Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 According to a person that used to do these checks: 1) I agree, you need to admit to the person doing the security check anything you might be hiding or could be embarrised about. 2) The point isn't that you need to let the world know or you won't get a clearance, but rather, could you be blackmailed if someone did find out. If your response is "if someone found out and tried to blackmail me, then I would just let everyone know about it" then I think you are ok. If you said "I would do anything to keep it a secret" forget it. I think it is up to the person DOING the check to figure out how "credible" your reply is to the question. 3) FYI, the person that used to do these background checks said they were upset because MANY they recommended NOT get a security clearance based on stuff like this (not the shoes, but embarrising or questionable behavior) got them anyway because they said in writting they could not be blackmailed. Scotty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffB Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Well, to throw in my two cents worth, I work in the Federal government and, as everyone here already knows, I wear women's shoes at the office daily. Everyone knows about it and no one, including supervisors has had a problem with it. As far as I know, I've never seen or been told about a set dress code at the office, hell, I'm sure I would've been told of it the first day I wore pumps, but that's never come up. I'm lucky in that my co-workers all like me and appreciate the job I do, so the issue of what i wear on my feet has never been one, other than people like my shoes! I don't want to LOOK like a woman, I just want to DRESS like a woman! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubba136 Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 JeffB, there is a lot of federal jobs in agencies other than the DoD that don't routinely use classified material. Department of Transporation, for instance. Therefore, the behavrioral aspects wouldn't be as strict because the disclosure of details about ongoing progrms wouldn't be as damaging. Being mentally comfortable in your own mind is the key to wearing heels in public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genebujold Posted October 19, 2003 Share Posted October 19, 2003 I would imagin it would be hard to coerce someone because of their habits if they were already out of the closet. It would make sense to me that security agencies would let the person know they are aware of his/her activities so the prospect of coercion disappears and the subject could get on with doing the job he was hired to do without all that pressure. You're right - they're not worried about people who're open about their various activities. However, if the security agencies let the individual know what they have on them, then there's no way the agencies can test to see whether the individual is trying to cover something up. For example, if a man answered "no" to a question of viewing porn, and the agencies found out he did, then they've detected both willful deception (a bad thing) as well as a desire to hide it (embarrassment?). And that's the kind of personality type that's susceptable to blackmail. On the other hand, if the individual simply answered "yes," or "sure - hasn't everyone?" the agency wouldn't give it another thought. The only exceptions are those types of behavior that an individual may admit to an examiner, but wouldn't admit to a spouse. If someone answered "yes" to the question of "Have you ever committed adultery?" it would probably be immediately followed by "does your spouse know?" If the individual said yes, they'd probably want to interview their spouse! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffB Posted October 19, 2003 Share Posted October 19, 2003 Well, then I guess I'm lucky to be working where I am and can enjoy my passion without malice. I don't want to LOOK like a woman, I just want to DRESS like a woman! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FGWJON Posted October 19, 2003 Author Share Posted October 19, 2003 well my week has gone & its back to my normal location tomorrow,& flat shoes!!!!! What i did not point out before is that i work for a train company & part of my duties this past week is meeting and assisting with the despatch of trains from where i have been working.The fact i have had to concentrate on this has made me less concious of the fact i have done it in 2 1/2" heels so perhaps this is why people have not noticed,i must of seen several hundreds over the last few days! As i mentioned before wearing these would actually be in breach of safety rules so i won't be trying this at my regular station.Sympathy anyone for my dissapointment????? keen to meet other uk male heel wearers to try & boost my confidence to wear heels in public Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genebujold Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 well my week has gone & its back to my normal location tomorrow,& flat shoes!!!!! What i did not point out before is that i work for a train company & part of my duties this past week is meeting and assisting with the despatch of trains from where i have been working.The fact i have had to concentrate on this has made me less concious of the fact i have done it in 2 1/2" heels so perhaps this is why people have not noticed,i must of seen several hundreds over the last few days! As i mentioned before wearing these would actually be in breach of safety rules so i won't be trying this at my regular station.Sympathy anyone for my dissapointment????? Definitely feeling sympathy for you! But also feeling satisfaction that you're not letting a personal fetish get in the way of safety, either your own, or that of the public at large! Gene' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firefox Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Obviously you have to observe safety rules in an outdoor type job like that as I do when I visit construction sites. But all this stuff about security clearance and blackmail sems to be irrelevant to me. I mean if you are wearing heels outside on the job, then who can blackmail you about anything? You are wearing them openly and that's that. OK if someone was a a closet TV and wore frilly panties at home or whatever then it might be an issue, but I think the person who brought up this subject was maybe getting it confused with some closet activities. Street/office/social heeling is not in the closet. You are "out" if you want to call it that. Personally I just call it free and harmless fashion choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sscotty727 Posted October 20, 2003 Share Posted October 20, 2003 Hi Firefox, I think the whole discussion about security clearances and blackmail came about because I mentioned I am a DoD consultant working on a military base. The confusion happened because it was assumed my concern delt with not getting or losing a security clearance. Everyone is correct in that IF I did have one (and I don't, none is needed for what I am doing), then simply being open to the interviewer would clear that problem. My concern deals more with "perception". People in the military especially make observations about people based on persumptions, correct or incorrect. They might not be able to "kick you out" of an existing contract, but they could request you not return based on not liking your work or other such matters (we have lost other consultants from working here because of "chemistry" working with the client). Although we could fight such issues, my employer might find it easier to do the repacement and make everyone happy. For one, I don't want to risk severing client relations over footware and making a major issue of it. Nor do I want to put my company in a "bad" light over such issues. This is becoming more of a moot issue because I purchased longer pants last week which hide the heel nicely (even my wife who is extra critical of me wearing them to work said they look fine with my longer pants). The issue I have is, if I can discretely wear them to work, great. If not, I will opt to not wear them here and wear something else. I can certainly understand FGWJON's safety concern and I also applaud him putting safety first. Hopefully he can find a balance as I have. Scotty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genebujold Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Obviously you have to observe safety rules in an outdoor type job like that as I do when I visit construction sites. But all this stuff about security clearance and blackmail sems to be irrelevant to me... ...Personally I just call it free and harmless fashion choice. High, FF. Scotty's right - If your line of work isn't contingent upon a security clearance which may be contingent on your fashion choice, then it is indeed irrelevant. If your fashion choice may limit your security clearance which would oust your from your line of work, then it's entirely relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daisuki Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 I wore my heels into work for the first time today. It's still early in the morning so it remains to be seen if I'll still be wearing them when my assistant comes in. Last time I tried to talk to her about this she didn't understand. My main concern now is whether she will tell the boss who happens to be my father I'm wearing Navy blue stiletto pumps that aren't exactly flashy (for a woman at least) 3 1/4" heel. Also, I cheated a bit by arriving early before most people get here. There was one guy at the door to the building having trouble, so I pretended to be fixing something in the car. I was outside my car at this point so he could have seen my shoes, but it's doubtful. I also drove with heels for the first time today. My legs were very shaky at first but I calmed down after a bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sscotty727 Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Hi Gene, Actually I never said wearing heels could cost you a security clearance. It is mainly if you hide that fact (are embarrised by it and could be blackmailed if someone found out). If you are open about it and could care less if anyone knew, then I don't see how it would stop you from getting one. I am not positive if they could hold if up on you if they felt "deviant" behavior, but wearing heels I doubt would fall into that relm. Now having clients say they would rather not use your services because they didn't like what you wear would be more likely. Of course that wouldn't be the excuse used, but it could happen. Our company lost several consultants here because they just didn't like the chemistry with them. Of course they said their work wasn't up to par and didn't want to pay their rates for subpar work, however working with these people I know they were just fine. It was more a chemistry issue, we could have pressed it, but then we would have an unhappy client and an unhappy consultant. Also, the client would have been looking for anything small to push the case. My point is, with certain people, perception is the rule. Security clearance wise, it is mainly what you can or can not be blackmailed for. Of course, any illegal would be ground for not getting one or losing it. Scotty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sscotty727 Posted October 22, 2003 Share Posted October 22, 2003 Another comment on this issue. I think Firefox said it somewhere else in another post. Once a client (or boss if your not a consultant) gets to know you and your work, it is easier for you to start wearing heels there. Like I said, perception is everything. If I were to go to a new customer that didn't know me or my work, I would probably where something more conservative until they got to know me and my work and then I would feel more comfortable to start wearing heels again. If they didn't know me or how good I was at what I do, then they would probably judge my apparance and COULD just wrongly if they saw me wearing heels. Since I have been here 2 1/2 years, I think I am safe to push limits (within reason) here. Scotty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genebujold Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 I'm not quite sure I agree with you - I've seen too many people fall by the wayside for a variety of reasons, despite the high quality of their work. They knew it wasn't the quality of their work, but rather some strange chemistry, as did everyone else. But no one could prove that's why their contract was not extended or they weren't asked to head a project, etc. Bottom line, although I have an excellent repoir with my clients, the competition in my line of work is pretty stiff, I have a family to feed, etc. So - I'm not gambling on this one. Not even here in Vegas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sscotty727 Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Gene, I actually agree with you on this topic. First, I have been here long enough that I know the customer pretty well (I think you have to decide on what your customer would/would not judge you on). Second, I am only wearing them WITH my long pants and only the block heel with the square toe, nothing radical. Third, for the most part, I have an office (actually one of their conference rooms we took over) and right now I am the only person in there and can shut the door. If I were in a cube in full sight I might not be as couragous. In my next assignment with a new customer, I will probably go back to a very conservative fashion until I can decide on what I can and can not get away with. I believe even Firefox said when he meets new clients he also goes conservative at first, right? Scotty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firefox Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Sure I would dress conservatively, but that could still be 3" heels in my book. That's as conservative as I get now, and I've never had any problem with it in the UK. I've been with the same firm 12 years, and had lots of promotions and pay rises. It may be different in the "land of the Free" on the other side of the pond It can also be different if you are a contractor, but then again if you are good, I think it even works in your favour. It's no different for a woman either. I believe any career woman who acted in a professional way, would get to know clients first without pushing any boundaries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sscotty727 Posted October 23, 2003 Share Posted October 23, 2003 Hi Firefox, Good advice as always, thanks. I think the concern with the new customers more stems from the fact my clients are military not comercial and they tend to be ultra conservative. However, comercial clients could be the same too. I think you have to meet with them, get to know them and they know you and then judge what you could and could not get away with. Scotty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffB Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 When it comes to wearing women's shoes in public at work, you can't allow yourself to become self-conscious or nervous about it. Shoes are shoes, plain and simple. A less than confident image will set off warning bells to everyone around you, making them wonder if you have something to hide. Of course, a good dose of conservatism never hurts when it comes to what you wear, especially in an office environment. And if you interface regularly with clients, then you have to consider them and what they might think. In some ways, I suppose this could be viewed as a double-edged sword when it comes to be out in public in shoes not consistent with your gender. I don't want to LOOK like a woman, I just want to DRESS like a woman! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firefox Posted October 24, 2003 Share Posted October 24, 2003 Never be any less than confident as Jeff says. If you are not confident you might as well forget it. That would transmit some kind of message that you might be doing something wrong or there was some kind of embarassing sexual motive. No one wants that kind of shit in a business environment so you may well be told it wasn't acceptable because the impression may be it was disruptive. This is the same as if you were looking furtive in a shoe shop or trying them on in corner. You have to wear them as fashion in a confident manner the same way as women do and get on with life. Then you will be OK. In fact, people will respect you more for developing your own style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genebujold Posted October 27, 2003 Share Posted October 27, 2003 Hi Firefox, Good advice as always, thanks. I think the concern with the new customers more stems from the fact my clients are military not comercial and they tend to be ultra conservative. However, comercial clients could be the same too. I think you have to meet with them, get to know them and they know you and then judge what you could and could not get away with. Scotty You're absolutely right - some companies have detailed coat and tie policies. Others allow you to wear pretty much whatever you wish, provided you're not breaking federal law. These days, most companies are somewhere in between. Still, when it comes to personal fashion, even the more progressive third of the companies here in America would tend to label the practice of men wearing high heels to work as "deviant." And so it is! But so was long hair in the 60's, bell-bottoms in the 70's, mohawks in the 80's, earrings in the 90's. Gentlemen - we're in the single digits of a new century, and the cutting edge of fashion today is men wearing heels! How does it feel to be a pioneer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts