Why is this???

[BabeinHeels]

Why do I consistently see posts that Bash Americans for the way we speak?? I am quite tired of looking at a thread and seeing how we are making up words that don't exist, spelling things wrong, not speaking properly, etc........... It seems to me every country has indiosyncrasies that make it's language unique. Regions of American have vast differences in the language we speak. I live in an area where "ya'll" is common for you all, and "yonder" means over there. Someone in another region of our country would be curious as to what I mean by those words, but I have never felt insulted by them. I feel insulted here. I live in a country I love. I respect others, and I appreciate the same. There, my rant is over. Babe in Heels

[Francis]

hey! don't fret! we brits get similar treatment here! just listen to a Geordie or a Scouser and you'll get the general idea. It's not just the yanks that get it but us limey's as well

[Nicole]

I don't make fun of people that bash people for the way that they speak and write. Given my rather mixed accent, designed to be foreign wherever I live, it would be a little hypocritical to start with. Moerover, over the web it is especially obnoxious for two reasons: First of all, one often does not know where a person is from. Sometimes they are trying to communicate as best as they can but English is not their first language. There is simply no need to make fun of some one for speaking your langauge incorrectly, especially if you cannot even say 'hello' in their language. 2) 2nd, it is indeed a rare individual who consistently communicates electronically without making mistakes. I know that I make plenty of mistakes myself. Saying that, there is a flip side of the coin. To wit: the need to communicate effectively. In face to face conversation, the general meaning will come out with a small amount of effort even if the parties can barely understand one another. With a bit more difficulty, one can do the same with telephone conversations. In written communication, on the other hand, it is to my mind essential to use the standard syntax and spelling of the medium. Often this is simply good written English, combined with a willingness to proofread one's own posts. That is to a certain extent the case with this forum, although we certainly should not live and die by the comma here. It also holds true for examinations. I am a mathematics graduate student and a college calculus teacher. When I read my students exams, too often I see people who have been through at least 12 years of education in the USA, but completely fail to effectively communicate their ideas. Although it is possible to communicate on a maths exam using mathematical jargon and symbols, it is often better to use clear written English, especially when explaining one's work. Too many of my students do not seem to realise this despite my suggestions, and hence do poorly on their exams. Come to think of it, they often send me incomprehensible emails as well. Dialects are good, and enrich the language and culture of a country. On the other hand, there should be a common standard so that people from different regions can understand one another. In Britain, this standard is called the Queen's English, although it is not really spoken by the Queen. I'm not sure what the American equivalent is. I think that I am losing focus on this post so I will shut up now.

[WarrenB]

Babe, don;t forget 'Fixin', as in 'I'm fixin to beat you up.' It's a Southern Thing. The New Englanders drop "r's" off words that have them and add then to words that don't, such as "Oh, you have caahn (corn) in Tacomer". If we all add a location to our info, then it will be easier to figure out what one is trying to say.

[Julietta]

Personally I love accents of all sorts (probayly beecos my mom is Espanis) it just adds to the variety and colour in life. Hey where would the world be without that wonderful sexy French accent and that superb Texan drool that Jerry Hall does to perfection and from a British point of view the variety in the Northern accents which compliments their own very good sense of humour. I find that I listen more to a person with an accent as it draws me in and intrigues me. So be proud of who you are and don't let other people get to you they certainly are not worth the worry. Julie xx

[Yamyam]

Well said, Julietta! I tend to pick up accents, so I sound very 'Yamyam' on the phone, unless I'm down 'Sarff' where I grew up. I love accents too, but I'm a bit let down on that as I have Britain's worst accent ever. And for me, any time I find an error in someone's written or spoken English, I just try and remember that their English is better than my (non-existent) Spanish/French/Dutch/Greek/whatever... And it's true that UK English and American English aren't the same language at all!

[jo]

The problem inherent in international forums, such as this, is that the reader may read something into a post that the writer did not intend. This may arise purely from the subtle differences in the way that some words are used in different countries. A word might be used regularly in one country, but when used in another country may invoke feelings that the poster was being rude, abrupt, sarcastic, or whatever; when this may not have been the intention at all.

Additionally, someone writing in a language that isn't their first language may not be fully aware of the special things that certain words might convey beyond that given by their basic dictionary definition, and may therefore write something which doesn't quite mean what they intended.

So, be aware that although you think you understand what you thought you heard me say, what I actually said may not have been quite what I meant.

[Bubba136]

jo wrote:

The problem inherent in international forums, such as this, is that the reader may read something into a post that the writer did not intend.

International forums, eh? Add communication between teenagers and parents!

[jo]

... that too... ... as well as: male and female, black and white, North and South, East and West, rich and poor, wise and not so wise, etc, etc, etc,

[Yamyam]

In fact, given all that, plus differences such as introversion/extraversion, &c, it's amazing that any communication happens at all. I seem to remember once doing a three-day course basically about 'How to communicate'. I went in thinking 'but I've been talking for thirty years now' and left thinking 'blimey - it's astonishing that I thought I was communicating at all'!

[squirrelheels]

I personally have no problem with people who speak in different dialects... as has already been pointed out, it all adds to the variety of life. Neither do I have a problem with foreigners speaking bad english, because as Yamyam said, their english is better than my french/german/whatever. What I do have a problem is people who can't speak their own native tongue properly, or even worse, can't write it. When I write emails, letters, post messages etc, I always make sure my English makes sense, is punctuated properly and makes sense when read! If it isn't, I adjust it. Unfortunately, with the boom of the internet that started 10 years or so ago, I've noticed the decline in quality of people's written communication. Because people don't bother to learn to type properly, they consequently take shortcuts, start making up words and start spelling badly. I saw an article in the Daily Mail a few weeks ago about a girl who wrote an English essay in 'txt spk' (text speak - the shortened language used in instant messages on the internet and in SMSs/text messages). Now, it's fair enough to use 'txt spk' in texts, or even in IM conversations where time/space can be at a premium - even I do that, but in an English essay it is neither necessary nor appropriate. There are some differences between the English and American languages, such as "burgled" and "burglarized", the latter being the American version of the former which was English, and I find these quite amusing and silly, but that's all to do with dialect. But sometimes it gets a bit silly to the point where I have seen professional commercial well-known American websites making up words, and spelling existing words very badly. I might like to take this opportunity to remind Americans that they do not speak English. They speak American, or American English, but not English. English is what is spoken in England (and also Scotland and Wales, which are part of the same Kingdom). I know it's pedantic, but there are enough differences between English and American English for them to be two separate (yet similar) languages. I'm sure the same could apply with Portuguese and Spanish, although I don't speak either, so feel free to correct me on that one. That's my rant over. SH

[Yamyam]

Absolutely. If you're going to communicate, I think you should have enough respect for the reader/listener to put in the effort to express yourself as best you can. And that's my rant over with. Actually, I find that the general quality of written English here on this forum is well above the rest of the web. One of the reasons I've been here so long is the high quality of the writing here. At work, I often see documents sent out that I'm ashamed of being associated with! Here, I find everything easy to read, thought-provoking, and exciting.

[BobHH]

I think many of the web sites I encounter are run by non-English native language people, judging by the misspellings, strange grammar, etc. They look like those funny translations you sometimes see. The common comment in the U.S. is that you can't find a taxi driver whose native language is English (or American). We got one once who didn't even know how to get to Los Angeles International Airport (LAX)! The same now seems to be true of liquor stores and many other small businesses. Almost as bad as London? You can walk for blocks above Marble Arch and not see an English face or even hear much English spoken, and shop signs are mostly in Turkish or some such. Variety is nice, but sometimes it becomes frustrating trying to communicate or find a familiar face in your own country.

[Nicole]

I might like to take this opportunity to remind Americans that they do not speak English.

They speak American, or American English, but not English. English is what is spoken in England (and also Scotland and Wales, which are part of the same Kingdom). I know it's pedantic, but there are enough differences between English and American English for them to be two separate (yet similar) languages. ]

You are not being pedantic but I believe that you are grossly exagerating. Unlike with Portugese/ Spanish, the syntax of American and British English is the same; the words with rare exceptions are spelled and pronounced in the same manner; and any one who grows up speaking and reading American English can without any extra effort read and understand something in British English, and vice versa.

The differences are ones of culture, accent and dialect- not language.

This is not true of Spanish and Portugese, similar as they are. I would guess that it is not really true of Norwegian and Swedish which are also very similar.

For what it is worth, I have heard it said that of all the parts of the world that the English language is spoken, the one that is least changed in sound from 18th century English is found in America's deep south. I cannot vouch for the veracity of this claim.

[jim]

Accents.. Generally I enjoy their richness and diversity. They can bring something special into an otherwise mundane conversation...the texture of the spoken word is enhanced and coloured some how. I think my favourite is the soft, honeyed drawl some Southern woman speak with,and because of it, I can't help but be drawn to them. Strange really, I always thought my least favourite was the Vietnamese. I find their accents and the single syllable words harsh and quite difficult to listen too, but on reflection, my own rather bland Kiwi accent would have to replace it. Jim

[Arctic]

I think many of the web sites I encounter are run by non-English native language people, judging by the misspellings, strange grammar, etc. They look like those funny translations you sometimes see.

Consider the alternative: the majority of sites you would encounter are in Portugese, Spanish, German, French, Mandarin, Cantonese, Hindi, Dutch, Russian, Arabic... Would that benefit the information flow between people?

Also I design my webpages in some form of English, even though 95% of the intended audience speaks something else. But since English is the lowest common denominator as it is understood by almost anyone, it makes sense using this and nothing else.

I'm perfectly aware of the fact that my English for one is far from perfect, but I can make myself understood to English natives. The majority of English natives cannot claim the same. Billions of people go through many years of intensive training to acquire foreign language skills. Most people in the smaller countries of Europe, and to a certain degree also those in the larger ones, speak several foreign languages. If I just make a round of the guys sitting in the same office space as myself: The one next to me, a native Finn, speaks English, Spanish, German, Swedish and Finnish, all FLUENTLY. He also speaks some Portugese and Dutch. The next one, another Finn, speaks English, Spanish, Portugese, Swedish, German and Finnish, all FLUENTLY. The guy beside him, a Russian, knows Finnish, English, German and Russian. My wife speaks Swedish, Norwegian, English, Finnish, Dutch and some French. Also I have 5 languages on my record.

It appears that a lot of people do not understand how hard it is to learn a new language and what personal investment it takes...

Bottom line: I think it is not fair to expect language proficiency from the world in what happens to be your native languace, even if it is English.

The common comment in the U.S. is that you can't find a taxi driver whose native language is English (or American). We got one once who didn't even know how to get to Los Angeles International Airport (LAX)! The same now seems to be true of liquor stores and many other small businesses. Almost as bad as London? You can walk for blocks above Marble Arch and not see an English face or even hear much English spoken, and shop signs are mostly in Turkish or some such.

Once again: consider the alternatives! A cab ride would be twice as expensive or not available because natives are not willing to do the job for the same salary. Would it be better if most small stores would be closed for the same reason?

Variety is nice, but sometimes it becomes frustrating trying to communicate or find a familiar face in your own country.

Communication between two people requires skill from both sides. And if a non-familiar face makes you feel uncomfortable, some foreign travel may ease that problem a little.

I'm a very strong supporter of tight integration rules, and that includes strict conditions on behavio(u)r, language skills, employment, education, etc. but if people are abiding citizens and show willingness to live according the established patterns of the society, they should be given some minimal amount of respect for their efforts.

The last two paragraphs were admittedly slightly off-topic

Bert

[Bubba136]

Bert wrote:

Bottom line: I think it is not fair to expect language proficiency from the world in what happens to be your native languace, even if it is English.

Well said Bert. Spelling, grammar, and sentence construction should be discounted except in cases where English is the person's native language. (besides, most mistakes are typing mistakes, anyway) Afterall, the bottom line here is getting across your ideas as best you can.

I am impressed by people, such as yourself, Tom (NL) and several others, that can communicate so effectively in a language that isn't your native tongue. We, those of us with English as a native language, are the lucky ones. After all, we don't have to struggle trying to translate from one language to another.

[squirrelheels]

I am impressed by people, such as yourself, Tom (NL) and several others, that can communicate so effectively in a language that isn't your native tongue. We, those of us with English as a native language, are the lucky ones. Afterall, we don't have to struggle trying to translate from one language to another.

Yes, I echo that. Being the lazy, non-studious type that I am, I'm quite glad I don't have to learn another language. I'm glad that English seems to be the international language now, even if it isn't the easiest of languages to learn (so I'm told). That's a point... that's probably why some Brittens and Americans speak bad English, because it is a difficult language to learn. I bet a far higher percentage of Germans, French, Spaniads, Finns etc speak their native tongue better than Brittens and Americans speak English... (if you follow me!)

Bert, I read through your post, and apart from 1 typo, it appeared to be flawless English. If it wasn't for your location saying "Finland" I would assume you were British or American. Of course, I suspect you have an accent, so that wouldn't work so well in person or on the phone.

But, as has already been said, as long as it can be understood, that is the main thing.

SH

[BabeinHeels]

lol, well you all took this all over the place, but what I was specifically targeting are statements like the following:

"(Or as the Americans say: "alphabetised" - which isn't actually a word)"

Is it so necessary to add the underlined part?

And then this was added to this thread as well:

"I might like to take this opportunity to remind Americans that they do not speak English. They speak American, or American English, but not English"

I am extremely put off by this statement. I thought this was going to be a great site, but I really don't need to be insulted on a daily basis.

The American version of English is not based on the UK version. It is a language that was blended together by the many wonderful ethnic backgrounds that make up our country. I happen to have no English blood in me whatsoever. I'm proud of that.

MARIA aka Babe in Heels

[Yamyam]

lol, well you all took this all over the place, but what I was specifically targeting are statements like the following:

"(Or as the Americans say: "alphabetised" - which isn't actually a word)"

Is it so necessary to add the underlined part?

And then this was added to this thread as well:

"I might like to take this opportunity to remind Americans that they do not speak English. They speak American, or American English, but not English"

I am extremely put off by this statement. I thought this was going to be a great site, but I really don't need to be insulted on a daily basis.

The American version of English is not based on the UK version. It is a language that was blended together by the many wonderful ethnic backgrounds that make up our country. I happen to have no English blood in me whatsoever. I'm proud of that.

MARIA aka Babe in Heels

Well, UK is not the same as English. I'm British, but not English. I'm half Welsh, and half West Indian. Both sides of my heritage speak non-standard English. I don't have any English blood either, I just live here because it's handy for the shops .

The main thing about languages is that they're not fixed. I personally think that arguments about 'this is/isn't a word' are total tosh. If enough people use a string of characters, it acquires a meaning, and becomes a word, for all intents and purposes. (Expletive) to what Fowler, or Strunk&White, or even Nokia's T9 dictionary think - if this list of characters conveys a meaning, then it's a word and it's understandable.

English isn't 'cast in stone', there isn't an absolute 'marks out of ten' thing. How I write here on this board isn't how I write text messages to my favourite people, it isn't how I write emails to my boss, it's not how I write in birthday cards. Is one right and others wrong? Of course not. And in the same way, our American friends' English is fine, and equal with mine.

To sum up, as long as someone expresses their meaning, then their version of English is fine. This is a community, not an exam paper! Let's get back to sharing our experiences, discussing shoes and the wonderful digressions we all share, and stop poking each other with sharpened dictionaries!

[Bubba136]

hmm! Alphabetize is in my dictionary. I always thought that only words that were words appeared in dictionaries. (See below) al·pha·bet·ize (²l“f…-b¹-tºz”) tr.v. al·pha·bet·ized, al·pha·bet·iz·ing, al·pha·bet·iz·es. 1. To arrange in alphabetical order. 2. To supply with an alphabet. --al”pha·bet”i·za“tion (-bµt”¹-z³“sh…n) n. --al“pha·bet·iz”er n.

[Julietta]

Lets face it guys Shakespear wrote/spoke in true English. We have adapted and changed our language to suit our ever changing life styles and, with all our multitude of amazing cultures in Britain, English has taken on board a lot of twists and turns.

Britain, like Maria said about America,

is a language that was blended together by the many wonderful ethnic backgrounds that make up our country

except that ours is now in the present tense opposed to the past.

[Dave]

:argue:

[Julietta]

The moral is, if you are trying to communicate by the best means you can, then it's good enough!

Couldn't agree with you more Dave. Communicaton is what makes the world tick smoothly and can overcome all manner of obstacles.

[squirrelheels]

Ok, I accept there aren't enough differences between UK English and US English to catagorise US English as a different language. But there are differences between the languages that are substantial in places, and then there are little differences too. There are some things over here that you wouldn't want to say in America for fear of being arrested (how many american old ladies do you find going into sticky bun shops?!)... and similarly over here I've heard americans say things that have got some very strange looks and comments (namely "alphabetized" actually...). What really gets to me is the fact that some people (and I've noticed this particularly of Americans in general) seem to think that America is the be all and end all of the world and that everyone should be like them (I admit it can be the same with the UK). But I'm treading dangerous ground here, especially for 12:40am, and I'm starting to turn this into a political rant, so I'll shut up. Anyone fancy throwing me a rope? I'm done with the shovel... SH

[squirrelheels]

Oh, and I think there should be an Apostrophe Misuse Act .... but I'll save that for another rant SH

[Yamyam]

Oh, and I think there should be an Apostrophe Misuse Act .... but I'll save that for another rant

SH

So do I... SH, don't come to the "Midland's", where every word ending in S acquire's apostrophe's. Around here you can buy "carrot's", "caulie's" and lots more.

[jo]

The local Woolworths had a HUGE yellow banner with something like:

CD's, DVD's and videos

printed in half-metre high letters on it, hanging up outside.

I just had to go in and ask why they hadn't put an apostraphe on videos, 'cus then they could have had all three wrong.

[squirrelheels]

Shock of all shocks they did that on a physics exam I had today

The question was something like

"Explain why... xxx obey's Hooke's law"

The invidulator issued a correction at the beginning of the exam... But for an exam board of all things to make a mistake like that... tisk.

It tick's me off no end, so many apostrophe's. Whenever theres and S theres an apostrophe.

'SH

[Yamyam]

Ah well, SH, ever since your future got sold off, and the exam boards became private companies, there's been total havoc. It's a tragedy that people think that this is an advance - there's been exam papers stolen, illicitly copied, simply wrong, and so on. And this is people's futures we're dealing with!