Depressing News??

[hoverfly]

Hay I was look at a Yhoo Group http://groups.yahoo.com/group/meninboots_highheels/ and found this.

Greetings everyone,

I just got off the phone with a shoestore owner-friend of mine who

brings depressing news from the shoe trade shows. In spite of the

increasing numbers of those of us who love high heels and boots, the

shoe manufacturers remain convinced that there is NO MARKET for

attractive shoes and boots in larger sizes. In spite of research that

shows American Women increasing in stature and more women requiring

shoes in sizes above an 11M, these manufacturers remain stuck in the

erroneous opinion that they will waste their money by designing shoes

and boots in any size above an 11M. And yet, I continue to see new

members arrive to this board and many others around the web, which I

truly believe, proves the shoes makers WRONG.

I'm certain that every male on this board who likes to wear

women's heels and boots is not a US women's size 11 or smaller. You

are very lucky if you can wear a US Women's 8-11 as there are

THOUSANDS of sources for attractive shoes to wear. However, if you

happen to be as I am, 6'5" and wear a US Male 11 which can translate

into anything from a US women's 12WW to a 14M, your choices are

Artificially limited and in MOST cases, downright depressing. Go to

WWW.ZAPPOS.COM and do a search for size 13M in US Women's shoes and

see how many shoes are there. If you really want depression, click on

the link for "Boot Shop" and see how many boots come up, then search

the sizes and see what's there above an 11M. Same deal with

Nordstrom.com. For many years, I could go to Spiegel's catalog and at

least find something attractive in a 12W or rarely a 13m, but Spiegel

has diminished their style acquisition in the larger sizes. JCPenney

was at one time a good source for "nice" shoes in a 12W or rarely a

13M, they have followed the lead of the other retailers.

Now for the "good" news. I've had GREAT success with

WWW.Designershoes.com in Boston Mass (online and street-store).

Designershoes has just posted their "Fall2003 trunk show" and there

are really GREAT styles available. Barbara, the owner and a size 11

US Women's shoe herself, founded this store in response to her

inability to find shoes in her size. Barbara has been rather

conservative in the shoes she would order for her store

because "General wisdom" still teaches that tall women don't wear

tall heels. I have a lot of tall women friends who love 4" heels

almost as much as I do and buy everything they can find, but they

complain, just as I do that the selection is SO SMALL.

*SO What's the point here???*

I'm Glad you asked.

Our first problem, is to de-stigmatize males wearing heels and boots.

I am not nor have I any desire to be a woman. I am DIFFERENT. I wear

what pleases ME. I am not alone. Those who walk around with purple,

orange and pink hair are just as legitimate in their choice as I am

in the footwear I CHOOSE to wear. Yes, there are those who believe

they have the right through intimidation to CONTROL what you wear. I

wear heels and boots almost 85% of my waking hours now and I wear

them because I CHOOSE to wear them. I don't particularly care to see

a person with pink hair and if I see one, I can also CHOOSE to NOT

LOOK. External Mind Control has been tried famously (or Imfamously)

by the Taliban, Iran, Iraq and many other repressive societies and

has been proven to NOT WORK for long.

Secondly, once the idea of de-stigmatization has been achieved, will

there be anything left for us to wear??? If we don't make our choices

known now, then the "experts" of shoe design and fashion will move to

eliminate our sizes from normal production and while we may have

the "ability" to wear heels and boots publicly, we won't be able to

FIND any to wear. This goes also for the retailers. There are stores

in almost every major city that sells large sized women's shoes.

Please don't think you are the first male to go in there to buy shoes

for yourself. Don't go in with a story about "buying shoes for your

daughter or wife." It's been done. Women go into male clothing stores

and buy clothing for us FEARLESSLY and have been doing so for YEARS.

Unless you have a gun or knife in your pocket and it's your intent to

steal the shoes or rob the store, suck up your courage and be true to

your convictions/desires and BUY what you WANT. I've gone into a

store in NYC for 6-7 years to TRY ON and BUY shoes. I've had women

walk up and ask my opinion on a pair of shoes, I've had women admire

my choice in a pair of shoes, I've had a salesman who got so

flustered having to wait on me that he couldn't get his act together.

Whatever. The only way we will EVER be able to buy shoes and boots,

is if we SUPPORT those who are in business to supply what we want.

Last point. At some point, we must come together and demonstrate to

the retailers and manufacturers that we are a VIABLE and organized

community that will not be ignored or unserved. The major line

retailers; Nordstroms, Macy's, Federated Stores, JCPenney, and others

will not carry our sizes if our sizes come in and DIE on their racks.

Prada, 9west, Kenneth Cole, Jimmy Choo, Anne Klein and others will

continue to ignore us. As I write this posting, I just did a search

of Zappos.com for size 13M, out of 108 shoe styles available, NOT ONE

Pair with a heel taller than 2." In a size 10, I found 724 styles

available. I'm not saying that size 12-13 in Women's shoes will ever

become as profitable as sizes 8-10, but how much are they losing by

Ignoring us altogether. In my own case, I spent $3,000USD in shoes

and boots (women's) last fall. I spent $1100 between 2 orders just 2

weeks ago. How much could I buy IF I COULD FIND what I wanted in My

SIZE???

I guess I've ranted sufficiently. Any thoughts, pro or con?? Am I out

here by myself?

Tony

[Firefox]

If the market is worth exploiting, they will exploit it. They are out to make money, not dictate who wears what shoes. By frequenting specialist websites Tony probably gets a false impression of the number of people who are interested in this market.

[Yamyam]

If the market is worth exploiting, they will exploit it. They are out to make money, not dictate who wears what shoes. By frequenting specialist websites Tony probably gets a false impression of the number of people who are interested in this market.

I disagree. My experience comes from publishing, not from shoes, but there are many markets that the established companies miss, simply due to their own conservatism. I know one small publishing business, told that there was "simply no market for that stuff" who have now sold almost three-quarters of a million books over the last fifteen years.

Not saying that shoes are like that, but I'm sure that there is a market out there. After all, from a UK perspective, Brantano, Evans, and a few other places sell heels in sizes up to about a UK11. OK, the variety drops off after about UK8 or 9 (lucky me, I fit in there as a US10M/UK8-9) but the fact remains that they are still using a lot of expensive shelf space for that market.

I'm also finding things changing in the high street. Barratts and some others now tag up shoes as '9+', and have specialist larger-size catalogues. Again, the range isn't there yet, but the effort is being made.

So, now that I've managed to contradict myself totally, what am I blithering on about? First, the fact that no-one's in a marketplace doesn't mean the marketplace doesn't exist. Second, the fact that smaller companies who don't have the same blinkered mindset are often the best people to move into new marketplaces. And third, the established companies are drifting into the market. OK, we're not yet at the point where one can buy anything in a UK12, but there's still choice out there, and I can't even buy everything I want in a UK8 (fortunately for my bank balance )

The situation is changing, but we could still do with giving the manufacturers a nudge in the right direction!

[Alex]

If only I had Bill Gates type money. I'd buy my own shoe company and release heels in all sizes

[Firefox]

The fashion world and shoe companies are not conservative. They are the last people to be so. They see £££'s before their eyes and if they think there is a market then someone will exploit it. And it only takes ONE out of the thousands. Even if some are conservative, you can't argue they all are. A couple of years back Schuh went out on a limb and did some platforms/higher heeled styles for guys. They didn't sell very well. The problem thus does not lie with the manufacturers, it's the market, and there's unlikely to ever be a mass market. Reasons: 1. Most men are taller anyway. 2. Most men don't like fussy type things or ornamentation. 3. Most men prefer more practical things. There undoubtably is a market, but the fashion buyers concentrate on the bigger markets. I'd be interested to see what Dr Shoe has to say on this as he has a good knowledge of how these things work.

[Bubba136]

I wonder if Tony from http://groups.yahoo.com/group/meninboots_highheels/

knows about this forum. Perhaps we should get together one evening on ICQ, IRC or in Jenny's Spin chat room and talk this thing over face to face (more or less).

I know we're not the only fourm or website for men in heels but if we could compile a list, notify the other sites that we're interested in making ripples in the manufacturers' pond, we might be able to "come together" and all make a simultaneous appeal or presentation to several manufactures from different directions.

I'm sure we won't get to first base, initally. However, after several attempts throughout the remaining months of this year, we might get them thinking seriously about the issue.

Comments?

[hoverfly]

All ready taken cared of.

I wonder if Tony from http://groups.yahoo.com/group/meninboots_highheels/

knows about this forum.

[Laurieheels]

The 3 facts that Fox listed about men are quite true for most. Case example - My sister was telling me how she was at work, and one of the guys was mentioning that he was getting a new car, a Nissan. Her first reaction was all about appearance, and she asked "what colour are you getting?" to which one of her guy friends there shook his head and whispered to her "that's not something a guy thinks about first" after the person getting the car did not have a clear answer on that. Apparently, my sister was told that guys care more about the practical applications - what kind of engine, the HPs, features, gadgets... the asthetics are secondary, according to the opinion of a few car crazed men where my sister works. Okay, this is not to say all men think this way, but if some do, then their choice of footwear is not going to focus on the need for heel or flash or colour. Most women are interested in some style of feminine shoe. Even if it is a feminized version of a male based design, it still retains some feminine flare. For men, from what I see, most wish to maintain a good deal of masculinity in their footwear as well as clothing. Sure, they can push limits, but few wish to cross them. Is this bad? Sure! It shows that people are trapped in certain stereotypes. Should someone try to push at the boundaries? Yes! Will it happen? Probably not! Will the world end if it doesn't happen? I doubt it.

[Yamyam]

Case example - My sister was telling me how she was at work, and one of the guys was mentioning that he was getting a new car, a Nissan. Her first reaction was all about appearance, and she asked "what colour are you getting?" to which one of her guy friends there shook his head and whispered to her "that's not something a guy thinks about first" after the person getting the car did not have a clear answer on that.

I'll believe this. Most times when I've discussed a new car with ladies, they've asked about the colour. Indeed, once when I was looking at a new car, the salesthing ignored my then partner completely. We talked about engines &c. Then I mentioned that I wanted automatic. He said "Ah, well you can't have all of the colours in auto. [Hey, UK, all right]". He then switched me off in his head and showed my ex-partner the colour charts, and asked her to pick a colour. She was completely stunned - after all, it was my car! She tried to get me into the discussion, but he would have none of it. She mentioned a couple of colours I liked, then he decided that was done, switched her off and started only speaking to me. I asked him why he thought I wasn't allowed to choose the colour, and without any shame he said something like 'oh, girls like to do that' and carried on. Needless to say, we didn't buy that car!

Apparently, my sister was told that guys care more about the practical applications - what kind of engine, the HPs, features, gadgets... the asthetics are secondary, according to the opinion of a few car crazed men where my sister works.

Damn! And I've been to garages several times and asked what cars come in red. And never had much luck finding out...

Okay, this is not to say all men think this way, but if some do, then their choice of footwear is not going to focus on the need for heel or flash or colour.

Most women are interested in some style of feminine shoe. Even if it is a feminized version of a male based design, it still retains some feminine flare. For men, from what I see, most wish to maintain a good deal of masculinity in their footwear as well as clothing. Sure, they can push limits, but few wish to cross them.

Is this bad? Sure! It shows that people are trapped in certain stereotypes. Should someone try to push at the boundaries? Yes!

Isn't that what envelopes are for? Aren't boundaries for crossing?

Will it happen? Probably not!

Will the world end if it doesn't happen?

I doubt it.

I think the world will end if we don't cross boundaries. There is ample evidence that we as humanity can't carry on like this. For instance, we have wars regularly. The next one could leave us bombing rubble until it bounces, then leaving it to glow for a hundred million years. Not what I want for our children and grandchildren. Something must change, and perhaps breaking down shoe stereotypes is a place to start!

[Nicole]

Talking about cars- I used to rent cars when I went down and visited my grandparents. My grandfather would always ask what kind of car I had this time. I usually did not know so I always told him what colour it was instead. I admit of course that I am rather atypical for a guy in this matter.

[Firefox]

I take a practical approach. I don't mind crossing boundries myself because I dress to please myself, and I don't give a toss what anyone else thinks; so long as what I do harms no one then I don't see a problem. I encourage people to think the same way, but unfortunately they don't. Most people need to be lead by society, to have some type of approval, and consequently to have heeled shoes available in their size. I think it all comes to do with watching televison, films, the media which programmes you to behave in a certain way. The problem lies not with the manufacturers but with the would-be heel wearers. Get some custom shoes made, modify some, however you do it, just do it. Get out there and wear them and demonstrate there is a market, and you might have some joy. Whinging about it is for losers.

[texasbumpkin]

If you want to talk about the car thing and sales/repair people not taking women seriously I have one for you. I had to have the drive axle flanges on my front axle replaced. I had them replaced in Dec, because someone who shall not be named drove over a median on the way to Quebec, Canada. (It was not Lori.) But anyways, after only 6000 miles they failed and I had been leaking transmission fluid. I took it to the dealership where I am living now, and told them what was going. I told them that it had been looked at by the dealership in Maine that had originally done the work and that I was only up in Maine for the day so that is why they did not do the work. The service manager from the dealership in Maine told me "If they have any questions to have them give me a call." And that message was passed along. So I get this call at 330 in that afternoon, after my car had been dropped off at 9am that my drive axle flanges were leaking, and that they were not going to be able to fix them that day. :argue: Needless to say, HELLO!!!!! did I not already tell you that that was the problem!!!!!! So went into the dealership, politely tore them a new one, then proceeded up the food chain to the manager on duty at the dealership and then the service manager. When I got on the phone with the service manager he asked me what kind of car that I drive. I say " A 1997 2.0L 4 cyl standard Jetta". He was a little taken aback. What is this? A female that knows about her car? I then proceeded on to tell him about all the problems I have had with the car: brake calipers, H-block to the A/C was cracked, 2 distributor caps, a power coil, oxygen sensors...etc. I think that they learned a leason when I came in with my car. There are some women out there that know about their cars. And you are going to regret taking advantage of those women because it will come back to bite you where it counts, your wallet.

[hoverfly]

Oooops... That was me, I did it. Did not even see it.

I had to have the drive axle flanges on my front axle replaced. I had them replaced in Dec, because someone who shall not be named drove over a median on the way to Quebec, Canada.

[Firefox]

What is this? A female that knows about her car?

A few women like to tell proudly (in a loud voice, to anyone who will listen) how they don't know anything about cars or machines in the hope that is somehow ladylike not to know about such things. That tarnishes the vast majority of girls who do take an interest in this new technical world.

[Laurieheels]

I know more abuot everything than I care to, but I do find it useful to play dumb at times, sure. So in some crowds, my social mutator comes into play, and maybe to sneak into their circle, pretend I don't know much abuot cars. Sure, I was concerned about the colour of the new car Chris was going to get, and actually told him "these colours, no others, no way, not allowed." But I do know quite a bit about why a combustion engine works, and as was once doubted, I have changed things like braking lights while wearing heels, because I could. Now I just let the dealership do this while I sit and look pretty, reading a book in the waiting room. Why? it serves my purpose. Even though if I had the tools, I would be able to change my oil and filter on my own. I was once accused of being a guy making up fantasies on the net for posting about my brake light replacement in four inch heels... but we all know how that turned out.

[texasbumpkin]

Lori, that was not what I was getting at. What I was saying is that there are people out there that try to take advantage of women/people because they think that they know nothing on the subject.

[Heelfan]

Come on Folks! Poor old Hoverfly there is wanting you all to get suitably and thoroughly depressed and ultra-grave at the state of the shoe industry and somehow within a couple more postings you're found to be waffling on merrily about car engines instead, and ignoring the poor fellow's plaintive expostulations completely. Ahah! Sudden thought! Conversely, if we surf the net and manage to discover a MotoForum on car engines, the subject-matter might have drifted on to the MUCH more stimulating and sexy subject of high heels! I wonder ....... surf. surf, surf! Cheerfully yours, Heelfan.

[Laurieheels]

Okay, this is off topic, so, we can start another topic somewhere else, or get back to shoes and fashion industry talk. For the record, I'm not one to let the car dealership service department push me around. Despite being some blondie girl. Just ask Chris, well, if he's around to ask. (He's busy watching this new sport called Slamball. ) The car dealership story is a pretty good story. But this is not the place for telling it.

[azraelle]

The problem as I see it is that there is at least as much resistance in distaff circles to a guy knowing about high heels, or what the best nail polish or makeup to wear, or how best to make a soufle, or what the proper tension to use when sewing satin..... as there is in "manly" circles to a woman who knows how a car is supposed to be fixed (see for example the movie My Cousin Vinny). So I don't think it is all that far off topic.

[texasbumpkin]

The problem as I see it is that there is at least as much resistance in distaff circles to a guy knowing about high heels, or what the best nail polish or makeup to wear, or how best to make a soufle, or what the proper tension to use when sewing satin..... as there is in "manly" circles to a woman who knows how a car is supposed to be fixed (see for example the movie My Cousin Vinny). So I don't think it is all that far off topic.

Thank you Azraelle. I agree.

[dressboots]

I have said it before but I have seen an increase in availibilty of larger women's shoe sizes in the past 30 years. Sure, it is nothing like the more common sizes 7 - 9 but the choices are increasing. There are ebbs and flow in who makes and markets such which at times seems to support the idea it is dying market. 30 years ago when my feet grew to their present women's size 12, I was virtually closed out of the femine shoe market. It is still not the best size to be but find my choices increasing in the past several years. Maybe it is just that I have found new sources for such. I prefer more conservative heel heights of 2" - 2.5" so choices are pretty good. I look at it more that the glass is half full (or 1/10th full to be accurate), not half empty, if you can stand a cliche. I agree on the point that guys are expected to know things and girls other things. Am not much interested in automobiles which can be rough when trying to carry on a conversation with some guys. Another example: Our neighbors used to compliment my wife on her expert gardening skills not even suspecting it was all me. Men mow the lawn, women grow the flowers and ornamentals. They all know better now. Am ofen asked for horticultural advice now that people know.