Next on the Hit list?

[Dr. Shoe]

I see the US is protesting about North Korea's reactivation of their nuclear program.

[Bubba136]

What's your point?

[hoverfly]

The way I see it North Korea in doing nothing more than stomping around like a spoiled child. They are not getting enough attention and free hand outs from the west that are keeping the current government in power. Obviously North Korea should fold their hand in this poker game. Let them build their bombs, if they are dumb enough to use them wipe them off the plant.

[j-turbo2002]

This is more of an economic issue for the North Koreans. Even if the North Koreans reactivate that nuclear power plant, produce nuclear material, and build nuclear weapons, they are going to sell whatever they decide to manufacture. In today’s market, there are people who will pay top dollar for anything that has to do with nuclear technology. According to the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency: North Korea, one of the world's most centrally planned and isolated economies, faces desperate economic conditions. Industrial capital stock is nearly beyond repair as a result of years of underinvestment and spare parts shortages. Industrial and power output have declined in parallel. Despite a good harvest in 2001, the nation faces its eighth year of food shortages because of a lack of arable land; collective farming; weather-related problems, including major drought in 2000; and chronic shortages of fertilizer and fuel. Massive international food aid deliveries have allowed the regime to escape mass starvation since 1995-96, but the population remains vulnerable to prolonged malnutrition and deteriorating living conditions. Large-scale military spending eats up resources needed for investment and civilian consumption. In 2001, the regime placed emphasis on earning hard currency, developing information technology, addressing power shortages, and attracting foreign aid, but in no way at the expense of relinquishing central control over key national assets or undergoing widespread market-oriented reforms.

[Dr. Shoe]

This is more of an economic issue for the North Koreans. Even if the North Koreans reactivate that nuclear power plant, produce nuclear material, and build nuclear weapons, they are going to sell whatever they decide to manufacture. In today’s market, there are people who will pay top dollar for anything that has to do with nuclear technology.

Now that is my point. But the question is: Will the US do anything to prevent this from happening? Apparently, there will be far more support for such an action from the world community than a hit on Iraq. Even the Chinese are pressing for action. Moreover, we have been seeing some media coverage about N. Korea's human rights abuses etc. Just like the year or so before Afghanistan.

[azraelle]

I think Georgie wants himself a real "good" war at the TAIL end of his first term, rather than at the beginning, as happened with his father (and himself, but this was an act of fate, not planning on his part), to insure enough popularity for election to a second term. Nothing else adequately explains why he is delaying on this issue--draw it out, goad the North Koreans to make a few more moves, then pounce on them??

[j-turbo2002]

Now that is my point.

So why did you not mention what I wrote in your very first post??

[Bubba136]

Dr. Shoe wrote: "there are people who will pay top dollar for anything that has to do with nuclear technology." In addition, there are countries that will continue to trade and sell technology to rogue regimes in spite of UN prohabitions against sales. France and Germany continue to sell banned items to Iraq. To them, it's just good business -- Both governments have been quoted as saying "if we don't sell these things to them, someone else will" -- which makes it acceptable. After all, rules are made to be broken, aren't they?

[Dr. Shoe]

The way I see it North Korea in doing nothing more than stomping around like a spoiled child. They are not getting enough attention and free hand outs from the west that are keeping the current government in power. Obviously North Korea should fold their hand in this poker game. Let them build their bombs, if they are dumb enough to use them wipe them off the plant.

The big problem is in the fact that they may not use them themselves as they don't have a big enough axe to grind to use them unprovoked, but Al Qaida is another story. The problem is, will they use them on a major city like NY, LA or London or will they hit a small town in the midwest just to prove that nobody is safe anywhere?

[Bubba136]

Chris11 wrote: "We all need to learn to live together. It is surprisingly easy to do it when you actually give it a honest chance." Ah, herein is the rub! Chris is right. It's easy to live together providing that all are willing to accept the other persons philosopy, culture and way of life. However, the problem is that when one group is convinced that they are marching at the orders of the "true god" and will not relent until everyone thinks as they do -- living to gether in peace and harmony is rather difficult. While Chris, in my opinion, is correct in thinking that a terrorist in possession of a weapon of mass destruction wouldn't hesitate to use it to "make a statement" to further his cause or achieve his final goal, he doesn't make any corresponding statement as a "free Canadian citizen" as to why the free world should allow the terrorist to "make" his statement at the cost of innocent lives. But, I guess he covers that aspect by stating: "Then again, I'm not some twisted, would be human, sicko of a terrorist. So what do I really know".

[Dr. Shoe]

Try to put yourself in the shoes of a terrorist. Its hard I know.

You have a tactical nuke in your possession. You have the ability to deploy it anywhere you choose. Your trying to make "a statement". Would you put it in a little town of 20,000 or would you put it on top of a skyscraper in a city of 2,000,000?

Back on 9/11 they could have put those planes anywhere, they choose the WTC because it was the biggest "bang" for the buck.

Then again, I'm not some twisted, would be human, sicko of a terrorist. So what do I really know.

Chris

On 11-9-01 they wanted to kill as m,any people as possible and at the same time strike a symbol of the US economic and political might as a primary target. They also had the Pentagon, the Capitol, The White House, The Statue of Liberty and the Empire State Building in their sites but as most of the hijackers "bottled out" the second WTC plane had to divert and hit it instead (looking at the route, it looks as if it was originally heading for Washington but changed its mind and came back to New York).

Now what Al-Qaida want to do is to prove that nobody is safe ANYWHERE because the word terrorist means one who causes terror. That is why they hit Bali and will continue to hit other targets around the world so we're always guessing where they're going to pop up next. My guess is that if they ever acquire a bomb they will announce it then blow it up in a medium size city like Phoenix or Cleveland. The chances are, a suicide bomber will have been sitting on it in a motel room a couple of days before it's announced.

To hit New York would be to hit a taget that had already been done. Perhaps they may go for LA or London but I doubt it. In fact thinking about it they could go for somewhere like Wolverhampton or Bristol. That is how the twisted mind of the terrorist works. Moreover, the security in the larger cities is super tight with possibly an operative in just about every motel and hotel in town, whereas in a smaller town, there won't be such stiff opposition.

[j-turbo2002]

………..and back on the topic of North Korea.

Diplomacy is a good solution to this problem with the North Koreans but it is not at all the best way to handle the situation.

What will the U.S. do?

Well.......

How do you discipline a child (North Korea) that misbehaves and causes a big scene in front of the rest of society when it does not get what it wants?

[j-turbo2002]

Dr. Shoe wrote: "there are people who will pay top dollar for anything that has to do with nuclear technology."

Hey! Wait a minute! I wrote that! Not Dr. Shoe!

I guess that I should pay more attention to what other people write!

[Bubba136]

Sorry for misattributing the quote. My mistake.

[Trolldeg]

………..and back on the topic of North Korea.

Diplomacy is a good solution to this problem with the North Koreans but it is not at all the best way to handle the situation.

What will the U.S. do?

Well.......

How do you discipline a child (North Korea) that misbehaves and causes a big scene in front of the rest of society when it does not get what it wants?

what gives USA the right to assume the role of a parent then?

[Dr. Shoe]

[quote name='"j-turbo2002

So why did you not mention what I wrote in your very first post?? [/quote']

I usually assume that people are intelligent enough understand my point until they ask me to clarify it.

[Dr. Shoe]

That is another point and the reason s that I am personally opposed to action against Iraq. The US is behaving like some weird adult that goes around adopting children just so they can beat them.

[j-turbo2002]

O.K., the following statement makes no sense at all:

The US is behaving like some weird adult that goes around adopting children just so they can beat them.

Come on now Dr. Shoe! I expected a better statement from you than that one above. What you wrote here is nothing but delusional, schizophrenic, and paranoid nonsense!

The U.S. has beaten people, but it has not adopted anyone yet! If you want to talk about adopting and beating children just look back at the old British Empire.

Yes, the U.S. does not have the right to be a parent, but why does the rest of the world gives the U.S. that privilege (of being a parent, that is)?

Why do you think that is?????

[hoverfly]

This coming from some one who’s country is a major allied with the U.S. I wonder what you would say if you were living out side the blanket of the U.S. ?

That is another point and the reason s that I am personally opposed to action against Iraq.

The US is behaving like some weird adult that goes around adopting children just so they can beat them.

[azraelle]

……what gives USA the right to assume the role of a parent then?

In this particular case [North Korea potentially "misusing" nuclear weapons] the fact that we (sigh) invented the damned things in the first place makes us responsible for keeping the earth from becoming a "burned-out cinder", and the human race from becoming a memory in the galactic consciousness.

How's that, Trolldeg?

[PJ]

I believe the USA acts as the world parent for these reasons: #1 - We feel we have the military and economic power to intimidate and back our threats with action. #2 - Our own history has taught us what happens when lawless people are left in control and not challenged. #3 - We feel that our form of living would be best for the whole world. Unfortunately, much of the world does not know this yet. #4 - Powerful and low-keyed business leaders influence our international policy to a great extent. #5 - As long as their is the possibility of something benefiting the USA somehow, we will get involved.

[Dr. Shoe]

O.K., the following statement makes no sense at all:

Come on now Dr. Shoe! I expected a better statement from you than that one above. What you wrote here is nothing but delusional, schizophrenic, and paranoid nonsense!

The U.S. has beaten people, but it has not adopted anyone yet! If you want to talk about adopting and beating children just look back at the old British Empire.

Yes, the U.S. does not have the right to be a parent, but why does the rest of the world gives the U.S. that privilege (of being a parent, that is)?

Why do you think that is?????

Oh I agree, but the British empire was built on Greed, paranoia, bigotry, downright racism, and the so called great leaders were manipulative, exploitative and greedy individuals who measured success by wealth at the expense of their servants and slaves and by doing "Johnny Foreigner" and "little black Sambo" down at every opportunity. The world gave the Great Britain the role of "parent" because they were the most powerful nation on earth. I'm sure that the same doesn't apply in any way to the United States!

[Dr. Shoe]

This coming from some one who’s country is a major allied with the U.S. I wonder what you would say if you were living out side the blanket of the U.S. ?

Firstly, the general voice at street level in the UK is in distinct opposition to a war with Iraq. Even sections of our media is of the opinion that the matter should be settled by diplomatic means.

Secondly, if I was living outside the "blanket" of the US the majority consensus would also be the voice of the government. Another reason why a war with Iraq would be madness for us is because we have an enormous Moslem population who see such an action as an attack on Islam. This is particularly true here in London and in Birmingham and as for Bradford and Leicester .... I need not say more. In the US moslems form a much smaller section of the populace and so the average US citizen is largely insulated from the repurcussions in a way we are not.

Just to illustrate my point, 70% of the girls at my Daughter's school are Moslem and around half of them wear Birkkas (just like the Taliban). At my place of work there are at least 8 moslems in a workforce of around 50 full-time employees. Both sides of me are Moslem neighbours, Turks one side and Nigerians the other and next door to them are Yemenis and immediately below are Somalis. Our local shopkeeper is a Moslem whose wife wears a Birkka and nextdoor to him is a hardware shop who is also run by an Asian moslem whose wife doesn't wear a Birkka. Our local shoe shop (nothing over size 8UK ) is staffed entirely by girls in Birkkas.

I'm not saying that they are going to react to a war, however these people are friends, neighbours and colleagues who may or may not realise that the war is political and not religious.

[Dr. Shoe]

I believe the USA acts as the world parent for these reasons:

#1 - We feel we have the military and economic power to intimidate and back our threats with action.

A playground bully uses his size and strength to terrorise other kids.

#2 - Our own history has taught us what happens when lawless people are left in control and not challenged.

No-one has ever said that Iraq is lawless, Saddam just wants to be president of a superpower.

#3 - We feel that our form of living would be best for the whole world. Unfortunately, much of the world does not know this yet.

Yes everyone wants to be force fed Junk-food, too much television and a constitution that gaurantees people the right to carry lethal weapons.

#4 - Powerful and low-keyed business leaders influence our international policy to a great extent.

Very wise, God forbid that key decisions should be democratic, it may mean that GWB can't bomb people!

#5 - As long as their is the possibility of something benefiting the USA somehow, we will get involved.

:rofl:

[hoverfly]

Doc, if you looked at the polls on how America feels about going to war with Iraq, we are largely against it. So it's not just how the rest feel about it, it seems the people of the U.S. feels the same to. Unless there is undisputed proof that Iraq has violated it's agreements of possessing or even supply weapons of mass destruction to others (That's including waiting on some one to use such a weapon.) Only then we should act.

[Calv]

From what I've read the reason for the US war against Iraq is so that the US can get their hands on the Iraq oil. for a president backed by the US weapons industry and the oil industry this war can only be a win win situation..... So what if thousands of innocent people die.

[j-turbo2002]

Hey! What the hell happened to the discussion of North Korea?

Dr. Shoe: the responses that you gave hoverfly and PJ were both horrible and absolutely pathetic. I truly was expecting something a lot better than that from you but you let us all down. Will you please stop clowning around and grow up and behave like an adult and start debating like one. When I read your response to PJ I immediately thought that some 8-yr old wrote it. Yes, it was that bad. Both of your responses to both hoverfly and PJ were nothing but delusional, schizophrenic, and paranoid liberal socialist bullshit! Some of us are trying to have a good logical mature discussion here. I used to think that you were a pretty good debater but now I don't know what to think.

Now come on! You can a lot better than this garbage!

I know that you can!!

[Bubba136]

Calv wrote: "From what I've read the reason for the US war against Iraq is so that the US can get their hands on the Iraq oil." Actually, it's Suddam Hussein's wives and palaces that Bush wants. It isn't oil at all. Recently, I came across an article written by Tony Parsons and printed in the "Daily Mirror" on September 11, 2002. I wish y'all would read it -- after all, its written by one of the UKs most left leaning columnist. It is quite moving. Tony Parsons Daily Mirror September 11, 2002: ONE year ago, the world witnessed a unique kind of broadcasting -- the mass murder of thousands, live on television. As a lesson in the pitiless cruelty of the human race, September 11 was up there with Pol Pot's Mountain of skulls in Cambodia, or the skeletal bodies stacked like garbage in the Nazi concentration camps. An unspeakable act so cruel, so calculated and so utterly merciless that surely the world could agree on one thing -- nobody deserves this fate. Surely there could be consensus: the victims were truly innocent, the perpetrators truly evil. But to the world's eternal shame, 9/11 is increasingly seen as America's comeuppance. Incredibly, anti-Americanism has increased over the last year. There has always been a simmering resentment to the USA in this country -- too loud, too rich, too full of themselves and so much happier than Europeans - but it has become an epidemic. And it seems incredible to me. More than that, it turns my stomach. America is this country's greatest friend and our staunchest ally. We are bonded to the US by culture, language and blood. A little over half a century ago, around half a million Americans died for our freedoms, as well as their own. Have we forgotten so soon? And exactly a year ago, thousands of ordinary men, women and children -- not just Americans, but from dozens of countries -- were butchered by a small group of religious fanatics. Are we so quick to betray them? What touched the heart about those who died in the twin towers and on the planes was that we recognized them. Young fathers and mothers, somebody's son and somebody's daughter, husbands and wives, and children, some unborn. And these people brought it on themselves? And their nation is to blame for their meticulously planned slaughter? These days you don't have to be some dust-encrusted nut job in Kabul or Karachi or Finsbury Park to see America as the Great Satan. The anti-American alliance is made up of self-loathing liberals who blame the Americans for every ill in the Third World, and conservatives suffering from power-envy, bitter that the world's only superpower can do what it likes without having to ask permission. The truth is that America has behaved with enormous restraint since September 11. Remember the gut-wrenching tapes of weeping men phoning their wives to say, "I love you," before they were burned alive. Remember those people leaping to their deaths from the top of burning skyscrapers. Remember the hundreds of firemen buried alive. Remember the smiling face of that beautiful little girl who was on one of the planes with her mum. Remember, remember -- and realize that America has never retaliated for 9/11 in anything like the way it could have. So a few al-Qaeda tourists got locked without a trial in Camp X-ray? Pass the Kleenex... So some Afghan wedding receptions were shot up after they merrily fired their semiautomatics in a sky full of American planes? A shame, but maybe next time they should stick to confetti. AMERICA could have turned a large chunk of the world into a parking lot. That it didn't is a sign of strength. American voices are already being raised against attacking Iraq - that's what a democracy is for. How many in the Islamic world will have a minute's silence for the slaughtered innocents of 9/11? How many Islamic leaders will have the guts to say that the mass murder of 9/11 was an abomination? When the news of 9/11 broke on the West Bank, those freedom-loving Palestinians were dancing in the street. America watched all of that -- and didn't push the button. We should thank the stars that America is the most powerful nation in the world. I still find it incredible that 9/11 did not provoke all-out war. Not a "war on terrorism." A real war. The fundamentalist dudes are talking about "opening the gates of hell," if America attacks Iraq. Well, America could have opened the gates of hell like you wouldn't believe. The US is the most militarily powerful nation that ever strode the face of the earth. The campaign in Afghanistan may have been less than perfect and the planned war on Iraq may be misconceived. But don't blame America for not bringing peace and light to these wretched countries. How many democracies are there in the Middle East, or in the Muslim world? You can count them on the fingers of one hand -- assuming you haven't had any chopped off for minor shoplifting. I love America, yet America is hated. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle. But I would rather be a dog in New York City than a Prince in Riyadh. Above all, America is hated because it is what every country wants to be -- rich, free, strong, open, optimistic. Not ground down by the past, or religion, or some caste system. America is the best friend this country ever had and we should start remembering that. Or do you really think the USA is the root of all evil? Tell it to the loved ones of the men and women who leaped to their death from the burning towers. Tell it to the nursing mothers whose husbands died on one of the hijacked planes, or were ripped apart in a collapsing skyscraper. And tell it to the hundreds of young widows whose husbands worked for the New York Fire Department. To our shame, George Bush gets a worse press than Saddam Hussein. Once we were told that Saddam gassed the Kurds, tortured his own people and set up rape-camps in Kuwait. Now we are told he likes Quality Street. Save me theorange center, oh mighty one! One of the greatest atrocities in human history was committed against America. No, do more than remember NEVER FORGET!

[j-turbo2002]

Nice article Bubba! You should have posted that article earlier.

[Dr. Shoe]

I agree that the Twin Towers was possible the very worse attrocity commited and the largest single taking of life in any terrorist act ever. However, there is no evidence to even think that either Iraq or North Korea ever had anything to with it. OK we're told that Iraqis were dancing in the streets but if we were to mount a campaign against Al-Qaida then we should be having a war against Saudi Arabia. Moreover, there are more people actually speaking out in support of Al Qaida here than in Iraq and I doubt that the average North Korean has ever even heard of it. You see, the events of "9/11" has given GWB carte blanc to go after anyone who has ever crossed swords with the US before under the "War-On-Terrorism-Banner". Hit Afghanistan and Kill off the Taliban yes. But Iraq and North Korea? I don't think so.