stremph Posted February 21, 2002 Posted February 21, 2002 There's a lumberjack song? No, I really have no problem with women unscrewing pickle jars. But there is more to gender roles than just social constructs. A lot of gender roles are just social acknowledgements of biological differences.
Mano Posted February 21, 2002 Posted February 21, 2002 maybe we also should consider, that what is precepted as "masculin" and "feminine" by society however much we dislike tose labels, is also subject to constant changes; men today do an wear stuff that was considered "female" not too logn ago, like dyling and permed haricuts, pink shirts, sleeveless tops, low-cut pants, etc. The make-up industry has been launching skincare products for men for a couple of years now. A season or so back, we even saw mainstream fashion companies like H&M selling skirts for men. These things will always change. On the shoefront, we now see some examples of how boots for men are back in fashions (ie. Paul Smith et al)...
Trolldeg Posted February 21, 2002 Posted February 21, 2002 A lot of gender roles are just social acknowledgements of biological differences. major BS. prove it.
Firefox Posted February 21, 2002 Author Posted February 21, 2002 Stremph, originally you said "men unscrew pickle jars, women pass them." If you've "no problem with women unscrewing them" too, then you are accepting that women can undertake activities which were at one time prescribed to men. Similarly men can have greater freedom of choice in their lifestyle. You may not personally like it, or agree with it, but to be consistent in a fair and logical manner, that freedom must follow in today's society. Perhaps that bridge has not been crossed in the States. I've been told that some areas are very conservative there, especially the religious areas. But in Western Europe we subscribe to the freer ideals, rightly or wrongly, it's the way of life here.
Trolldeg Posted February 23, 2002 Posted February 23, 2002 What it all boils down to is some guys insisting on rights to do something that no one has a right to stop them from doing. So where's the fight. the fight is everywhere, everyday. Demand that everyone agree with them and only them. Anyone who disagrees will be and is immediately subject to their name calling or some sort of blasphemy. The guys can't with any amount of "fairness" disagree with me on that, just go back and read what they wrote, or better yet review any part of the forums past. oh, so the forums work just like the real world? I made my situation known once before a long time ago when I offered my support to Susan when she was being verbally brutalized for no reason other then being a women who disagreed, and worse yet, has a knowledge of high heels and feminine allure that made the guys mad. exactly what is feminie allure? it's just rubbish. I'm going to be told this is off topic, no it's not, it's relevant. The important word in the original question is "should". That comes around to one person telling another person what to do. I don't like that anymore then anyone else. In a civilized culture that "shouldn't" be necessary, however in todays loss of most social worth, who knows. This idea of men and women being the same is sick, there are more differences than similarities. and exactly WHAT do you base that on? major BS. stop trying to make all men look like violent beasts, just because you had a bad experience. I don't judge all women by your narrow mind.
IHeels Posted February 23, 2002 Posted February 23, 2002 Hiya, Janice, myself being a lawyer (attorney for those in the US), the result is understandable, it's all about facts and usually they become pretty blured because not everything is written down at the time of the incident. Result, usually, apportionment of blame. I also got the impression you might have been a bit in the face, still no excuse for him to do what he did. On clothes, a lot of guys can wear some ladies jeans (qualify - not the ones I wear skin tight low waisted - the potato breaks up the line), however shirt/blouse nice and fitted with bust darts etc no way - they would look daggy at least I know I,ve still got things in the way of attire that ain't for the guys. Shoes well I'm not fussed. It's all about being yourself. Inga HEELS are POWER the HIGHER the BETTER.
Firefox Posted February 23, 2002 Author Posted February 23, 2002 I can't say I subscribe to the TV idea where men dress as women and try and pretend they are something they are not. I accept the rights of those people and wouldn't make fun of them, in fact I'd go out of my way to accept them and integrate their choices into my life, should I have occasion to come into contact with someone like that. Men wearing different shoe styles as men is not about TV activity. We aren't wearing clothes that don't fit or introducing padding, or whatever. It's a completely different scenario. In terms of any "fight" and I don't think I have ever used that word, it's only saying "I'll do this, it's harmless, and let's all get on with our lives." When I found my girlfriend wearing my jacket (it has happened) I never ordered her to "Take it off." I just said "That's cool." It's what she wanted at that time, and so what. No reason to start world war 3 over it. It's just a friggin piece of cloth the same as shoes are just bits of plastic and leather. Stay cool, be calm, and love people and you will have a pleasant life. More importantly people around you will have a pleasant life too
Calv Posted February 24, 2002 Posted February 24, 2002 I agree with the words Firefox has written and see no reason to resort to violence to get any point across. I also believe that people should have the freedom to wear the clothes they want, be they originally intended for male or female bodies. For my own part I quite often wear female clothes, as I prefer the look, cut, fabric, colours etc. But I always wear them as a male. If I wear heels out, then I have to wear womens jeans or trousers to get the correct leg length. As Eddie Izzard once said "I'm expressing my full clothing rights!" Do your own thing. Don't be a victim of conformity. Calv
Laurieheels Posted February 24, 2002 Posted February 24, 2002 Fight is a subjective term. However, as we often have images of two people hitting one another as fight, we can find another word. Struggle? I like struggle. It can imply the physical movements of trying to escape, sure, BUT it also has been used as people trying to overthrow oppression. Quest? Adventure? Mission? The Plan!? Should we even dare to find a term to cover what it is we'd like to do when changing the views of society? Let's just change society. Shoes for everyone, whatever style you like! Oh, and two cars in every garage and a chicken in every pot and roaster. The only thing we have to fear is, the rising price of shoes in today's economy!
hoverfly Posted February 25, 2002 Posted February 25, 2002 Janise, Apparently you former boyfriend had problems that are not related to a fashion statement that is being promoted here. Your relation to your former boyfriend wearing your high heels has nothing to do with him beating you. His beating you, was a totally separate incident. You seem to use the high heels as a point of focus, the end result of getting beaten. Not him, the high heel. This kind of thinking is what got him a light sentence. Everybody in that court room thought before, and after the fact, a man who wore high heels is/was not in his right mind. To them this is not normal for a man because of an image everybody carries in their mind to identify a gender. There for, serious jail time was not the cure, counseling was. Personally, I think he did get a good lawyer. This lawyer knows how people thinks, and knew how to play the court. That's his job, and it does not matter entirely what is right or wrong in court. It is how well you sell your case to the judge, and jury. That, dictates punishment or lack of such. Maybe the reason you feel so bitter about his sentence is that your image of justice, dose not exist? <font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hoverfly on 2002-02-25 02:00 ]</font> Hello, my name is Hoverfly. I’m a high heel addict…. Weeeeeeeeeee! 👠1998 to 2022!
Shoeiee Posted February 25, 2002 Posted February 25, 2002 Hello Janise, When I first read your original post I was shocked at what happened to you. Your story is very disturbing and I don't feel your ex-bf got what he deserved...He should have gotten more. Now I read this post and I'm in shock again at how you have interpreted the posts since the original post. Let me point out a few things... On 2002-02-25 00:38, Anonymous wrote: I said I would never get a straight answer and I didn't. It seems the consensus is I was deserving of the beating I took, with scars for life, because I disagreed with a guy wanting to wear high heels. WAIT A MINUITE HERE!! NOWHERE ON THIS BOARD HAS ANYONE STATED ANYTHING THAT REMOTELY IMPLIED THAT YOU DESERVED THAT BEATING!!! The fact he snuck into my apartment and went though my things should be OK, I should have left him do as he pleased. No surprise here, as long as the fight, violence, and persecution is toward desending women it's OK. No one said what the guy did was wrong. HOLD IT!! YOU didn't state in your original post THAT HE SNUCK INTO YOUR APARTMENT. That's BREAKING AND ENTERING!! It also places the entire incident into a different light. HE WAS TRESPASSING!! Him trying on your shoes, in and of itself, may have been percieved as a personal violation of trust OF AN INVITED GUEST, but the fact that HE WASN'T INVITED makes his behavior TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE!! REGARDLESS, NO ONE HERE EVER AGREED THAT HIS VIOLENCE TOWARD YOU WAS ACCEPTABLE!!!!! Inga, your legal impression is way off base. There was nothing blury in any of the testimony and he was convicted on all counts. It was the sentencing that was a joke and his slick attorney saw to that. One of those mentally off balance things. It's not over. Glad to hear he was convicted on all counts. You didn't mention that originally. Too bad he got off so easily. GO GET HIM!! This time with a better lawyer... My opinion of men wearing heels is prejudiced for sure, and for good reason. Your prejudiced view IS NOT FOR GOOD REASON!! I don't see why men wearing heels AS FASHION should be prejudiced. There is a difference between most men here who wear heels and the bonehead you were beaten by...Most guys here do this on a regular and public basis AS FASHION. This is NORMAL FASHION FOR THEM. NOT JUST FANTASY! What your ex was doing was 'playing in a sexual way' with your shoes. He was getting a twisted 'high' off of; 1. doing something wrong (breaking and entering); 2. Wearing something of yours that he feels is very personal and sexual; 3. I think he WANTED to get caught by you as a turn-on. I SINCERELY doubt he had ANY FASHION or REGULAR WEAR intentions even similar to those of most of the men on this board. I will think what I want and I will speak out. GOOD FOR YOU!! Don't follow the crowd and be honest. TO YOURSELF AND EVERYONE ELSE!! Speak out if you wish. JUST DON'T JUDGE ME BY ONE BONEHEAD'S ACTIONS!! My narrow mind, as it was called, is broad and my eyes are wide open. You're wrong here...Your eyes have taken a very narrow view of the big picture, skewed by a single (narrow) negative event. Your mind has closed to the possibility of NORMAL MEN wearing DIFFERENT SHOES. This doesn't mean you're narrow minded overall, just in this one stance. We see what has happened to any person who has expressed a negative opinion on these forums and any woman inparticular who has a forth right feminine quality. Yes, we have. Most women who present themselves in an appropriate manner are praised and cherished here by THE REGULARS. If there is a difference of opinion, it has USUALLY been dealt with respectably and courteously, BY THE REGULARS. It's the 'surfers' or 'lurkers' who refuse to register or post names that have caused so much trouble. Should men leave high heel wearing to women? I don't care, wear what you want, just let us alone. THAT'S WHAT WE'RE SAYING!! LET US ALONE!! Don't harass us for OUR CHOICE IN FASHION!! But I don't see where we're bothering you...Again, there is a difference between fantasy and reality... If the high heeled guy's fight is "everywhere and every day" maybe it's because it's being asked for. Most men who wear heels publicly ARE NOT ASKING FOR FIGHTS!! We're asking for EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE!! THE FREEDOM TO WEAR A FASHION WITHOUT PERSECUTION!!!! If we were ASKING FOR FIGHTS there would have to be some aggression on our parts. I have yet to hear of ANYONE HERE INITIATING aggressive behavior towards anyone else because of their shoes. Janise, I sincerely wish you the best in your battle against the man who did this to you. I hope you do get an acceptable resolution in the long run and this guy gets some jail time and SERIOUS HELP. Likewise, after reading your words, I feel that your rather educated and I hope that you have the sense to get some help yourself to overcome this trauma. You now have a stance against men wearing heels due to this incident...Is it also going to make you go into a shell and distrust all men because of that same incident?? Is it going to be an unhealthy position against all men because of one reject?? I sincerely hope not. MOST of us are not like this individual. Best wishes for the battle and your future. Shoeiee P.S.>>>I WAS a regular for nearly three years on the old boards but have not had the time lately to be very active here. Ask some of the regulars, they can vouch for me. "Heels aren't just for women anymore!!" Happy Heeling! Shoeiee
Carolyn Posted February 27, 2002 Posted February 27, 2002 I don't see why men shouldn't wear high heels if they want. The only thing is they're already much taller than us so I think it would fit better on the shorter men, but yeah, go for it whatever. I'd encourage you to do what you feel I don't see the relavence of any points Janis was making, but I agree with most of the other posters. ~Caz
hoverfly Posted February 27, 2002 Posted February 27, 2002 I have seen tall women who wear high heels. For those women who I have seen wearing high heels, there height doesn’t effect negatively how they look. For the few I have seen, they looked great. However, I think why most of them don't wear them is that they are allready very couscous about the fact there so tall. So most tend to shy away for them. Why? Since most men are taller than women any way, what’s 3 or 4 more inches? It’s not permanent? Hello, my name is Hoverfly. I’m a high heel addict…. Weeeeeeeeeee! 👠1998 to 2022!
Charlie Posted February 27, 2002 Posted February 27, 2002 Janice, How can someone so obviously intellegent as yourself be surprised that you're going to get an argument when you post an idea so contrary to the charter of the forum you're posting on? Are you familiar with the concept of cause and effect? I'd like to stay and chat, but I've got to run over to the women's liberation forum and post how I think women belong in the kitchen. I'm hoping I can make some new friends! What do you think of my chances? For what it's worth, you did have every right to be angry with the BF for messing with your stuff without your permission. The subsequent physical attack was reprehensible on his part! I hope that once all of the court battles are over, that'll be the last you see of him. I am curious about one thing. Did you have any perception at all that he might have a screw loose? This has no bearing on anything, but I am just curious. Charlie Everything I say is a lie!.......I'm lying
Bob Posted February 27, 2002 Posted February 27, 2002 Janise I'm sorry to hear what you went through and believe that it is only right that the man who did that to you get's everything he deserves, no person to go through that (Man or Woman). If anybody has their privacy invaded then they have the right to seek justice, and that goes for being safe in their own homes. I think it is unfair for you to suggest that the darker side of hatred towards women is prevalent on these boards, I myself certainly don't hate women! Personally I think most of the men and women get along well here and trust that moderators would delete anything that would incite hatred of any form. whilst it is true that you posts may have opened many peoples eyes toward the darker side of the human psyche I would say that most of us are only too aware that this sort of thing happens (and as far as i'm concerned once would be once too often), in fact a good female friend of mine has been subject to physical abuse, he got off scot free and she felt she had to quit her job, however, I don't think this is endemic in the male population, in fact most men are decent honest people who are being made to look bad by a minority who have serious mental problems or problem with their anger and agresiveness. This is where we should be concentrating and not pandering to the views of the minority of "Extreme feminist" types who seem to think that all men are animals who should be caged (and I assure you I really do mean minority, I think most women feel that men are on the hole decent and civilised) Insofar as equality is concerned, although this has come on leaps and bounds over the past few decades, yes there is still a lot to do (not least in many of the still male dominated professions), but you must agree that there are some areas where men have some equality to win from women, such as fashion. For example, a woman can choose to wear a skirt of trousers to work, a man can only wear trousers. A woman has the choice of high heels or flats, a man has only flats. Is this truly equal? I think you would agree it is not, and that is what this board is all about, winning a modicum of freedom for men and women both (specifically high heels, and indeed,women are trying just as hard to win freedoms where heels are concerned as some of the posts have proven) and for this reason some of the debates can become heated! I hope everything turns out right for you, and please do come back to let us know, i'm sure many would welcome you here Bob Man is born in freedom, but soon becomes enslaved, in cages of convention from the cradle to the grave - Jeff Waynes War Of The Worlds/Sung by David Essex
Trolldeg Posted February 27, 2002 Posted February 27, 2002 On 2002-02-27 16:16, Anonymous wrote: If this is all about fashion why do the comments, "fashion is for cowards" & "what is feminine" keep popping up it's allrigt, you can point the blame at me, I'm prepared to take an argument. I'm trying to make you think. do you REALLY belive that there is a genetical difference in how men and women think and act? is there a genetic code that tells women that they have to remove all their body hair, wear make up, be silent, beautiful and obedient, to wear high heels?
hoverfly Posted February 27, 2002 Posted February 27, 2002 Ooops...the message above is from me. Hello, my name is Hoverfly. I’m a high heel addict…. Weeeeeeeeeee! 👠1998 to 2022!
Charlie Posted February 28, 2002 Posted February 28, 2002 Me again Janice, Thanks for your answer to my question pertaining to any perceptions you might have had w/regards to the BF. What made me curious is that sometimes we all want a relationship to work so bad that we actually ignore our instincts when a warning flag appears. From your answer, this was not the case in your situation. I will certainly get on the soap box with you and help you preach that there are way too many men out there with the notion that it's okay to bring violence on women. Trust me when I tell you that this practice literally sickens me. Unfortunately, the real problem is identifying who these guys are before the fact. You're a very intelligent person, and yet, this guy totally fooled you. I'm no dummy, and I've been fooled too! (I'll elaborate on this a bit later) Sadly, it's far too simplistic to assume that a group of people with a common interest all fall/don't fall into this category. I think you understand this as well. I think you're saying that you want an acknowledgement from all of us here that there are MANY men capable of what your BF did to you. Okay -- I acknowledge this. Not very satisfying is it? That's because I think what you REALLY want is an answer as to WHY? I'm afraid that this is much tougher. Let's try and arrive at one together. Here's a real life situation that happend to me: A few years ago I lived in an apartment complex. One day, on my way out the door I heard a woman in the apartment pleading with someone not to hit her again. I heard a large appliance smash against the wall followed by someone (presumably the woman) falling to the ground. I then heard a man swearing at her and continuing to threaten her. I knew this man and had several pleasant conversations with him in the parking lot in the past. He seemed like the nicest/friendliest man you'd want to know. Anyway, I noticed that their door was unlocked. I hurried in and proceeded to beat back the man until he was practically unconscious. It took this level of force to get him to stop! The police were summoned and the man was taken off to jail. Within a week, they were back together! It was as if nothing had happened! My thoughts first: My best guess as to what was going through her head is that she was ignoring her instincts and the data at hand in order to save the relationship at all costs. My best guess as to what was going through his head is that it's okay to lose control as she'll take him back anyway. To me it looked like two entirely different perceptions from one common situation? Do the different perceptions come form gender role playing instilled in all of us from an early age or is it simply a physiological difference betwen the genders? The gender role playing can be fixed. The later is much tougher to sort out. Your thoughts? Charlie P.S. Who do all of you guys like better? Serious Charlie or silly Charlie from the other day? Everything I say is a lie!.......I'm lying
stremph Posted March 1, 2002 Posted March 1, 2002 Ok, I'm not against a man's right to wear high heels. I just don't want to be exposed to it. One of the things I love about women's shoes is that most of them make this wonderful sound when women walk in them. That is perhaps what I love most about high heels. You can hear the sound of someone walking in them, and even before looking, you know there's a confident woman nearby. I like that. I used to work with a guy that wore a pair of loafers that sounded just like a pair of heels and it frustrated me everytime he walked near me because I'd hear his shoes and turn thinking I'd see a woman, and it was just Nick. That was SO annoying. My OPINION, once again, which has nothing to do with my nationality or religion (what religion?) is that some things should remain the exclusive property of each sex. Also, keep in mind that just because a mind isn't as "open" as you'd like it, that doesn't mean that mind is closed. Regarding gender roles being b.s.: Show me a father that breatfeeds (<font color="blue"> *** </font>) or a woman that can take down a buffalo with a spear while 9 months pregnant. Or even menstruating for that matter. Better yet, show me an army of them if biology has no bearing on gender roles. <font color="blue">We don't talk disrespectfull of anyone's sexuality or race on this board. (See Posting guidelines)</font> <font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: moderator on 2002-03-02 00:27 ]</font>
Laurieheels Posted March 4, 2002 Posted March 4, 2002 Why Doug, that's a horrible attutide, thinking it is best to say little. It's best to speak your mind! The problem is, of course, how strong is your armour? This is now directed as a general comment, and by no means to Doug. To have an opinion, you must express it, and if anyone sladers you for it, then you know you are right. We cannot hide behind personal emotional armour, but we may need some. I believe the cliche is thicker skin. I hate cliches. So make your own shield and wade in, speak your mind, and anyone dumb enough to the point of yelling instead of debating in a freidnly manner should keep quiet, and those of us with things to say should speak. Or type. It's only shoes, people, why should we have fights over what one person says? There are bad things happening in the world, we do not need to waste our emottions over shoes, unless we are all being happy. Then it is never a waste. Everyone, post. I think we can handle those that do not play nice. Think of me as the bully slayer, and anyone who would flame or bash or otherwise belittle someone here for an opinion can come deal with me. So Doug, I hope you post more, because your comments worry me about the opinions we need but never here. They are just as valuable.
Trolldeg Posted March 8, 2002 Posted March 8, 2002 Trolldeg, I'm a woman with a feminine outlook, what does that mean? you've already established anything I would say is BS. You've made it clear you're looking for a fight here, I'll not help you. The moderators deleted a comment in another post and inserted a comment that attacks on peoples sexuality isn't permited on the forum. There didn't seem to be any problem with your attack on my female sexuality, where did I do that? my gender, no, only your gender role. and my "feminine" emotions. what is that? Thank you for driving my point about contempt for women solidly home. oh, really.
Driver8 Posted March 8, 2002 Posted March 8, 2002 "Susan" is paying "Janise"'s medical bills from the beatdown she got from her high-heel wearing boyfriend? How do they expect me to believe such a soap opera? This, my friends, is what's known to more experienced internet users as a troll!
hoverfly Posted March 9, 2002 Posted March 9, 2002 Tisk... I did it again...The one above is from me. Hello, my name is Hoverfly. I’m a high heel addict…. Weeeeeeeeeee! 👠1998 to 2022!
Firefox Posted March 9, 2002 Author Posted March 9, 2002 I've seen a fair few guys in heels especially in the last couple of years. Coming back to the original question, my experience is I hardly ever get a negative reaction from a girl. Only a few guys argue vehemently agaisnt it.
hoverfly Posted March 10, 2002 Posted March 10, 2002 On your male high heel sightings Firefox, is that just in England and Europe? How about the United States? Hello, my name is Hoverfly. I’m a high heel addict…. Weeeeeeeeeee! 👠1998 to 2022!
Laurieheels Posted March 10, 2002 Posted March 10, 2002 Male heel sightings where I live = 0. This number does not count the obvious female impersonators riding in a rickshaw late one night when we were having a sort of party in front of an apartment building, and people were on their balconies all talking. Ah, summer. I miss it. It would have been a great scene for a TV show, all the neighbours talking, and then screaming drag queens going down the street in a rickshaw. Other than that, it's cowboy boots for the boys.
hoverfly Posted March 10, 2002 Posted March 10, 2002 Sad but true... Don't forget Motley Crue and Twisted Sister as well. But that's the entertainment industry. Hello, my name is Hoverfly. I’m a high heel addict…. Weeeeeeeeeee! 👠1998 to 2022!
Driver8 Posted March 10, 2002 Posted March 10, 2002 If one knows how fetishists think, one can distinguish them from women. Even Imelda Marcos, with her several thousand shoes, was obsessed about them in a different way than a male fetishist would be. Women have a quite different relationship with femininity and the symbols of femininity than a man who desires to acquire them but has been held back by society. Nothing I've read from "Susan" indicates to me that "she" was anything but a male fetishist. But you'll never catch me saying this in public, for any questioning along those lines invites outrage from anonymous posters.
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