A woman's prerogative to say "NO".

[Susan (the original)]

A nice conversation among some pleasant gentlemen and my self on another thread managed to get too far off the assigned topic, so let's keep it going here. Please, anyone, join in. I'm a female, so through all my experience in life, passing conversations tend to wander through all manner of topics. So, as far as I'm concerned this one can wander, but not off the edge. Continuing the discussion between Peter, Jay, and Chris, I used this title because I feel very strongly about it. I think it's fair that I try to address some of the points already opened in our discussion in the "HHplace died...Why was..." thread. Chris, you're correct, I don't use the same brush to paint all men who choose to wear heels. As I said in earlier posts, I've continued long time contacts with gentlemen who elect to wear heels. It's all about behavior. The part that must be remembered/respected is that I make the choice about acceptable behavior, no one makes that decision for me. (I'm reasonably sure those same words hold true for everyone reading this.) When I'm in the chat room with old friends (some dating back over 8 years) and the discussion drifts off to men and their high heels I simply excuse myself. I don't give anyone a hard time. Most of those same gentlemen respect my feelings and never push any male heel wearing agenda during our conversations. Actually, we discuss most everything except shoes. Family, vacations, new homes, etc. Today, this same type of respect holds true in e-mail exchanges. On the other side of the coin, as you mentioned, I've had, and through others, been involved in far too many nasty and cruel experiences surrounding men obcessed with high heels. Years ago on these websites and forums I defiantely argued to defend myself, my husband, and even my children. The dozens of abused women I've come in contact with were very much at the same loss. Arguing to defend themselves. It doesn't do any good, it only excalates the abuse. We've learned! So now we simply take the behavior laid upon us and share it. Supporting documentation is plentiful, arrest reports, hospital and court records, the internet, etc. Basically it's, We said "NO" and this is what happened. On the subject of style, fashion, stereotypes and such, for my part that's all simply a load of excuses and not reason for anything. If you don't like it, don't wear it, I don't. I sense from some of the sentiments already expressed some of us are in some agreement on that. When I see cable programs or anything else where some self appointed individual or group of individuals want to tell me what I'm supposed to wear the only thing that comes to my mind is, WHAT PART OF "NO" DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND. I have my personal preferences, my husband has his preferences, and we agree. A bit on the comical side, he is terrible at putting color combinations together. Slacks, shirt, tie, jacket, so I usually pick the colors. If he frowns at me, I pick something else. On the subject of heels, I refuse to purchase and wear what someone else is dictating. For instance, the long pointed toes, I dispise them. Sandals, I refuse to wear them, but not only because of style. The endeavor I embarked on 35 years ago to achieve a desired manner always in very high heels, was done with deliberate intent and understandable caution. The intent was the desired exceptional manner, the permanency was the understandable result (with caution). Hense, no sandals. I'm out of time for this evening. Susan

[chris100575]

Hi Susan I think that all right-thinking people understand the right to say no, and that it doesn't apply exclusively to women. There are some areas where it is an absolute, sex for example. But should it apply so rigidly in more trivial areas? For example, I recently bought a new coat. If I had a girlfriend at the moment would it be reasonable for her to turn round and say "you're not wearing that" even if it was appropriate attire for wherever we were going? Surely this is essentially saying "I don't like it, change it", an attitude that would be seen as unacceptable if the positions were reversed and I was saying it to her? Don't get me wrong, I firmly believe that people have the right to say no, and that there are certain circumstances where that no should be inviolate. Just to make myself absolutely clear, I am in no way condoning or defending domestic violence or abuse. However is there a point where "no" stops being a right to protect oneself from harm, physical or mental, and becomes a restriction of somebody else's right to freedom? On the considerably less deep subject of fashion, I would like to say that I'm in complete agreement, and that I've been wearing whatever I like for years. However 99% of the other people with the same taste in music as I do also have very similar tastes in clothes and footwear to me, so my argument would kind of fall down at that point. I dislike most mainstream fashion though. Chris

[Ozzard]

Here are the principles I operate to - an opening for discussion!

• I should not be able to force you to do what I want you to do.
• You should not be able to force me to do what you want me to do.
• We may discuss rationally; force (including emotional force / blackmail) is not allowed.
• If we are doing something that requires both of us (example: a night out), and we cannot agree on what that requires (example: I want to come along in glitter heels, a fluorescent tutu and a kipper tie; you want me to come along in a sober suit; we can't meet in the middle) then the something that requires both of us, ultimately, doesn't happen. This includes marriages, in the long term.

[dr1819]

I like your attitude, Susan, and am glad to hear you no longer feel like you have to defend everything. Sometimes the best defense is to simply choose not to reply. It helps others to learn to grow up, too.

[RPMindy]

i'll be watching this thread with some interest to see how it meanders about. while our society seems to keep hold of double standards, as chris pointed out, when it comes to fashion and relationships.. that double standard can cause some serious strains. brief example... women can comment on what her man is wearing and have great influence on his final choice of clothing (some actually outright buy the clothes their mate are to wear). the reverse would be highly frowned apon and meet tremedous social resistance. i'm not going to say i'm generalizing or being specific in my example. i don't think that example is a good one in anyway shape or form. but it is an example of where negotiations get sticky betweem men and women (and not limited to fashion either). bottom line.. no one can make anyone do what they don't want to do.. nor make them feel what they don't want to feel. the stronger the person is and more able that person is on holding their ground, the more they can inadvertently ruffle feathers of those around them. I'll be back..time is pressing me.. but i'll be watching this thread. RPM p.s. Susan... i'm open to hear more about your heeling permanency if you're game (via pm's)

[DandyDude]

Susan- I basically agree with Chris' post. I tend to associate with people who are more or less similar to me in crucial areas. There would be not much chance for me to become involved with a woman who is expecting a man who would (seemingly) willingly play the straightlaced role to the hilt. If I did encounter such a woman and we somehow hit it off, she might very well be a hidden vixen herself. I've known a few kinky female lawyers in my time. Yes, there is no excuse for abuse, whether mental or physical. I do believe, however, that there can be a back and forth effect regarding certain problems. For example, if a woman tells a man he can't wear something as if he is a child, then he may get angry. I think the mildest amongst us would do that much. I also believe that male secretiveness and a woman's insecurity can play off of each other. If you have a straightlaced businessman type who relieves the tension in his life by xdressing, by which I mean actually trying to create a pseudo female, a woman trying to boss him around may very well set him off. I also know that woman like to test men to see what they can get away with. Again, the families/lives that are ruined by the extreme things I mentioned on the other threads, there is no excuse for that. I'd say, again, that people need to go into relationships with their eyes open. Women expecting a man to be a stereotypical manly man may find out that he is/becomes a man's man!

[Guy N. Heels]

Many interesting and valid points taken here. Therefore I shall also add my 2 cents' worth. 1] I believe that every woman has the right (within sensible limits, of course) to choose certain fashions and styles for herself: perfume, hairstyles, clothing, and shoes. After all, these are the things that make a person a distinctive individual. 2] I also believe the same thing applies to men, as well. 3] At the same time, I think a person should be prepared to receive valid objections or criticisms for the styles and choices made. 4] Everyone needs to respect another person's right to make their own choices, even when they disagree with the choice made.

[Susan (the original)]

It's been a long day, I've had a full evening of Christmas season partying, and it's late but I wanted to at least reply in short. It's seems everyone pretty much has the same ideas or thoughts, we just have different ways of saying them. Saying "NO" to protect or defend one's self is a lot different than saying "NO" simply to be obstinate, and there's a vast amount of room inbetween. Additionally, without question, I agree saying "NO" certainly is not gender or age specific. While I don't think I implied that, I won't ignore the reality of the magnitude of female victims. I mentioned in a previous post on another thread the term "rights" is sort of a thorn in my side. But that's because of the behaviors and results there of that I've experienced the past few years. It's just something I'm coming to grips with. Virtually every discussion of this type that I've been involved in turns to the growing of or distruction of relationships. It seems, from many of the comments, we're all on the same page. People enter into a relationship with the idea they'll change the "other" partner. Again, on another post on another thread I used the words, "of the two of us there is only one I can change". One dozen words that carry a message with incredible truth. In any couples relationship where signficant differences arise after time, one of or both of the individuals misrepresented themselves to the other. Inevitably this comes around to another issue, that of honesty. Again, please don't misunderstand, this is not gender specific. I don't care who or what the situation, I simply don't accept "excuses" as "reasons" for behavior. The one thing I probably don't agree with here is the "stereotypical" thing. In todays society, "stereotypical" can be attached to any number of behaviors. Again, it simply becomes an excuse for behavior, good or bad. Getting back to the "women's prerogative to say no", the issue of permanency in heels was mentioned in closing comments in a post on the other thread where this discussion started. I believe it was Chris explaining an opinion and expressing legitimate concern. When I read some of what has been written about it throughout the forum I simply want to scream. And I want to scream "NO" to nearly everything I read. The idea of men wanting to "make" their wife or girlfriend commited permanently to high heels to satisfy a fetish is simply sick. Some of the suggestions and the inadequacy of information is alarming. On another new thread in the for everyone section a man asked for help in convincing his wife to spend more time wearing heels. Several members offered some very good thoughs that carried a lot of truth. Then someone suggested locks. Here we are with the fetish and behavior thing. I came around to this because this touches on some of the "behavior" toward women we've aided in the past years. It also lands directly on Chris's concerns I mentioned above. At the end of the day it all boils down to one thing, behavior, and what happens to the woman when she says no. Susan A parting question. The post times and nature of comments surrounding the locks, are reversed?

[Skirted-UK]

Nice to see you back Susan, please stay this time.

[jmc]

. . . People enter into a relationship with the idea they'll change the "other" partner. Again, on another post on another thread I used the words, "of the two of us there is only one I can change". One dozen words that carry a message with incredible truth. In any couples relationship where signficant differences arise after time, one of or both of the individuals misrepresented themselves to the other. Inevitably this comes around to another issue, that of honesty. Again, please don't misunderstand, this is not gender specific. I don't care who or what the situation, I simply don't accept "excuses" as "reasons" for behavior. . . .

From my experience, in a truly healthy relationship between a man and a woman, both partners change -- and they do so from within. They grow together -- out of a mutual love and respect for each other. This is why people who have been married for many years get to the point where they can finish each others sentences. They are so "in tune" with each others' thought processes that they instinctively know what the other is thinking. Neither individual "runs" the relationship solely, everything is a cooperative effort.

Ironically -- again from my experience -- any relationship that begins with the concept of changing the other person in some fundamental way is most likely doomed to failure. This is because the partner who has to change will grow to resent the power the other has over the relationship and will begin to think it is unfair.

That said, this "permanent high-heel" idea recurs frequently around here and it remains disturbing to me. I certainly would not enforce it on anybody and in my mind it is not worthwhile -- I would categorize it as a "voluntary disability". (If it is not completely voluntary -- on the part of the person being heeled -- then by my comments above this is an unhealthy relationship and probably should be ended.) Some people seem to get into this "permanent high heel" thing (although I suspect --hope?-- a lot of it is fantasy) and it will probably forever be one of those many things I cannot fully understand.

[Dawn HH]

Susan:-) I echo Skirted's sentiments. Nice to have you back and I hope that you enjoy your stay. I also will be interested in seeing where these postings all lead. Cheers--- Dawn HH

[RPMindy]

I like your comments and how you expressed yourself Susan. the topic of permancy in heels is not one I find too appealing... reason being is that it puts undue pressure on the woman if she's doing it for him. but before i finish that thought.. a bit more about me I've always enjoyed seeing women in heels.. grew up around women who wore heels at most dressed up events I went to with my folks. While dating my fiance.. i wasn't aware of how much pressure i was putting on her to wear taller heels more frequently. i always thought i was a very understanding and agreeable nice guy. and i wasn't taking a hint well either. took a lot of growing up to realize that though i don't have a fetish in the classical terms.. i can behave as such. my lady is now wearing taller heels more often.. but on her terms her way. i've learned to let go my wants and desire to let her be her on the topic of heels. what made the change? after hearing other women express what kinds of pressure they were getting from their mates.. and reading on this forum how much fellas wanted that permanency or higher more regular heeling.. and seeing women's thoughts on it.. i've started examining myself. i don't want a permanently heeled woman (and i've expressed myself all too well on that). what i came to realize.. there is a difference between what I want and sharing with my lady.. and insisting she does as i say. it was a tough pill for me to swallow.. learning that i wanted her to wear the heels as a show of her appreciation for all the good stuff i did for her was a hard hard pill to swallow and hard to let go the habbit of feeling this way. i share this for one reason.. a lot of times.. well meaning standup guys can be harmful to their mate and never realize it. i had no clue how much i was pressuring her until one day in tears she asked me to look into myself to understand my motives. she didn't say anything about heeling.. just asked me to examine my motives for encouraging the things i do and want her to change. i took a few days.. and really came to grips with myself and made a change in me for what i hope is the better. today.. i don't pressure her to wear heels and she's not shown me any signs that i do either.. she seems so much happier now and more content. she's more willing to wear heels now... but on her terms and for herself when she wants to. if i'm there to enjoy the view.. great... if i'm not.. there is a next time. whereas earlier i was pushing her to wear her heels.. now i'm more considerate of her and tend to remind her to bring her flats when she has a long day.. something that makes her smile and thank me for being thoughtful... may not sound like much.. but the nature of her smile is one like when we first hoooked up.. and i like that! it's not about me the heeling.. i'm just a bistander watching. she wears her heels for herself. she changed for herself. not me. by learning to respect that.. i'm more at ease with myself and better appreicate when she does wear heels. i really didn't understand how subtly i was pressuring her.. it could have gone for years and she'd tire of me. i had no idea i was hurting her like that.. because i thought i was a very nice guy who was very helpful. today.. when she asks me to buy her a pair of heels.. i look hard for what i know she likes and buy it for her.. instead of what i like. and that has made so much a difference in her acceptance of me wanting to see her in heels. because now.. she feels i put her needs first and value her thoughts. to her.. that made all the difference from wearing heels a few times to be cute and starting to wish she didn't.. to now.. she does it because she wants to and i like her with and without her heels.. the same. my post is long.. sorry.. but i do type a bit fast and loose track of how long a post is. but i shared a lot of my personal self with one goal in mind.. not all guys are jerks (no one said anything about that prior either)..some guys through ignorance or just lack of introspection can behave as jerks and never realize it and hurt someoone they love. and by learning not to pressure my lady to do what i want.. i've seen (and this may not be duplicable) her interst in heels rise significantly and her average heel height has gone up farther than i expected.. with her top end heel height taller than I thought i'd ever see... although the frequency of wear is the same. but i'm cool with that now!!! thanks all for reading my novel. RPM

[Guy N. Heels]

I like your comments and how you expressed yourself Susan.

The topic of permancy in heels is not one I find too appealing... reason being is that it puts undue pressure on the woman if she's doing it for him...

While dating my fiance.. i wasn't aware of how much pressure i was putting on her to wear taller heels more frequently. i always thought i was a very understanding and agreeable nice guy. and i wasn't taking a hint well either...

...what i came to realize.. there is a difference between what I want and sharing with my lady.. and insisting she does as i say. it was a tough pill for me to swallow.. learning that i wanted her to wear the heels as a show of her appreciation for all the good stuff i did for her was a hard hard pill to swallow and hard to let go the habbit of feeling this way.

...today.. i don't pressure her to wear heels and she's not shown me any signs that i do either.. she seems so much happier now and more content. she's more willing to wear heels now... but on her terms and for herself when she wants to. if i'm there to enjoy the view.. great... if i'm not.. there is a next time...RPM

In my personal experience, most women respond better to pursuasion than pressure, far better to romance than demands.

[RPMindy]

you're so right... what i thought was pursuasion (which worked well with other women in my life) was taken as pressure by her and she wasn't comfortable with it. now that i've changed my approach and embrace her as she is... she's now doing more heels and taller heels. i wrote my long essay to help enlighten anyone who felt like they were being nice and found out they weren't. RPM

[Susan (the original)]

I really appreciate the open and thoughtful replies. We've taken it to a bit more detail that I had expected, but that's certainly OK with me. I said at the beginning this could wander where ever we wanted it to. Certainly, for what might be obvious reasons, my primary interest in this discussion surrounds a woman's prerogative, actually a right (still don't like that word), of personal defense. That includes a personal defense of her beliefs and values. NO, I won't do that. NO, you're not going to do that to me. NO, I don't like that. I'm sure you know what I mean. We've already covered the difference between personal defense and simply being obstinate. For this portion we can move on and look past the concept of being obstinate. At what point is "NO" accepted by the other party. How many times does she (or whom ever) have to say "NO" before whatever she is saying "NO" to ceases? How far does she have to go in her defense. Personally, I'm stead fast firm on this. My husband called it "deliberately determined". If I say "NO" that's exactly what I mean. In my personal life, in the life style I have, it's very seldom that I stand my ground with a "NO". When my husband says "NO" I know exactly what he means, "NO". All of it for the very reasons pointed out in jmc's post. Our values and beliefs are very much the same. We know that, not because we told each other, but because we see it constantly in each others behavior. We are as jmc described "in tune" with each other. I was married to my first husband 31 years when he passed away. I am very familiar with that concept. Now, outside of my family, I'm not in the least bashful about saying "NO" when I deem it appropriate. I've already clearly stated that in other posts on other threads. If, as everyone has stated, a woman (or anyone) has the option to say "NO", it only stands to reason she should expect the other party to accept it. Am I right or wrong? Susan

[Guy N. Heels]

I really appreciate the open and thoughtful replies. We've taken it to a bit more detail that I had expected, but that's certainly OK with me. I said at the beginning this could wander where ever we wanted it to.

...How far does she have to go in her defense. Personally, I'm stead fast firm on this. My husband called it "deliberately determined". If I say "NO" that's exactly what I mean. In my personal life, in the life style I have, it's very seldom that I stand my ground with a "NO". When my husband says "NO" I know exactly what he means, "NO".

...If, as everyone has stated, a woman (or anyone) has the option to say "NO", it only stands to reason she should expect the other party to accept it. Am I right or wrong?

Susan

Every meaningful relationship is dependent upon mutual respect and trust. Therefore, neither party should insist upon a matter of fashion or taste at the expense of the relationship. However, a reasonable explanation would certainly be in order, i.e.: my feet hurt; I'm having a bad day; I'm just not up to it right now, etc.

Having said that, any reasonable person should be able to accept that explanation without further ado. To not do so is not only very bad form, but also it begins to erode the relationship. After all, at some point both the trust and respect begin to break-down.

My late girlfriend had some serious issues because of a very bad car crash. However, when I bought her a very sexy pair of 3" heels she didn't yell or scream, or even protest, for that matter. However, she did say that it was difficult for her to walk in them. Then one night she left them at my apartment without a word. Later on, if she was up to it, she would wear them for me in the apartment. Usually it was her choice, but if she ever said she wasn't up to it - that was that; no arguments and no further discussion on the matter. Things worked well for us. I wish matters would work out so well for everyone.

[RPMindy]

Susan, to your closing question, you're right. Great clear post. I don't have more to comment.. especially after Guy N Heels said what he said. RPM

[chris100575]

Susan and Guy N Heels have summed up my feelings on the matter so well I don't have anything to add. I'll just thank them instead. Chris

[Susan (the original)]

Christmas and Holiday travels and activities have kept me busy, hense my delay to reply. I rather imagine the fundamental topic of this thread has run it's course. It was a bit disappointing there weren't more contributors. However, all of the discussions were thorough and obviously well meant. I appreciate that and thank everyone. At the onset my intention was to bring this thread around to the same set of questions I presented on the "girls" section concerning a post dated 6/20/06. It surrounded a post from a girl with long time extablished values and beliefs which were in direct conflict with some of her boyfriends ideas and desires, more specifically his high heels. When I read her post I "heard" her repeatedly say "NO". In all of the replies to her post no one else seemed to hear that. Now, after the sincere conversations we've had here, I don't believe any purpose would be served to carry that discussion further. I haven't changed my thoughts about it. The behavior speaks for itself and the history is in place. During this thread the topic of being permanently in heels has been touched on. From a very personal point of view, this is another reality where a woman's "NO" is all too often ignored. I'm not simply talking about a man's pressuring of a woman to spend all her waking hours in heels, but rather a woman's "NO" to someone else's (self appointed experts) explanation of her choices in life style. (I hope I said that so it makes sense) The life style I'm speaking of is that like mine. On another thread I made the comment that my life and life style is worlds away from that which is typically portrayed on these web sites. There's no adversarial intent in that comment, it's simply a statement of fact. For 34 years my feet have been a virtual straight line extension of my lower legs accented by the lasting arc of my ankles. My toes remain comfortably at a sharp angle at the end of my feet. I'm a little woman, size 5 (US) feet. In serious heels I stand with both feet in a space no larger then a coffee cup saucer. (The sole of both shoes and heel tips) "NO", I do not have a high heel fetish, period! Susan

[dr1819]

If, as everyone has stated, a woman (or anyone) has the option to say "NO", it only stands to reason she should expect the other party to accept it. Am I right or wrong?

Susan

You're right - everyone has both the option and the right to say "No" while fully expecting that answer to be respected.

However, I believe certain previous understandings and contractual agreements should modify those expectations. For example, when my wife and I shared I do's nearly two decades ago, there was a mutual expectation that, absent any justification to the contrary, there would never be any "No" answer to the question of continuing the marriage. And for eleven years, that was the case, with "divorce is not an option" being our watchphrase that carried us well beyond the point where irreconcilable differences would have done in most couples.

Because of our committment, we conceived a wonderful son and enjoyed many more years together as a loving couple and family.

One day, she arrived at the conclusion that her earlier beliefs were flawed, and her subsequent actions found her slight relief from her own issues while causing substantial distress in the two people she claimed to love - myself and our son.

Both my son and I have coped fairly well with her utter lack of regard for either of our feelings, and we've managed to remain in contact despite her every attempt to deny that. It's cost tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees, not to mention curtailed visitations because she had a fit and her lawyer filed motions before the judge while I was waiting to take custody for two weeks that became just five days.

Similarly, when a soldier, sailor, or airmen raises his right hand and swears/affirms to serve his/her country, he/she voids his/her right to say no to lawful orders, and agrees to abide by those lawful orders until their term of service has been completed.

I believe the same holds true in marriage, that it's more than an agreement to "try it until it doesn't work out," but rather, to "work it until it works." Just as I've known many marriages to founder for petty reasons, I've known much tougher marital situations prosper because of the commitment of the two parties involved, neither of whom accepted "No" for an answer as to whether their marriage would work.

So, no, I do not believe the right to say "No" is absolute. I believe it's inherent in most situations, except in those where it has been expressly forfeited for the good of the institution (whether marriage or military). In these situations, more good than harm comes by holding true to one's vows and commitments than by exercising one's right to say "No."

[Susan (the original)]

I don't believe the commitment of being sworn into the military and the promise and taking of marriage vows can be put in the same column or even remotely held to the same set of critical standards. In the context of marriages I completely agree with your belief and dedication of "work it until it works". I'll repeat myself, I completely agree with you, but only as long as "both" parties are being realistic, fair, and HONEST. In every marital situation there are two sides and most often two versions surrounding the cause and eventual decay of the relationship. There isn't enough room on this forum to explore all the causes. In the end, at the end of the day, it all boils down to personal behavior. There's that word again. I'm going to make a statement here and I'm going to ask that it be taken only in the text of the words. You said you "...do not believe the right to say NO is absolute", referring to the commitment of marriage. I have to disagree. Your ex-wife proved it's absolute, as per your description of your misfortune, and apparently the law sided with her. Please, please don't misunderstand me. I am in noooo way condoning her actions. I haven't any grounds to do that. I'm only addressing the reality. My heart goes out to you and your son and I wish you the very best. I do admire your courage in sharing what you've been through. Again, my heart goes out to you. As I pointed out in my previous post of 12/29, I didn't take this thread to the discussion I had originally intented and explained why. We can't change history and past behavior, we can only hope to learn from it. Very respectfully Susan

[JNR]

Forgive me, Dr1819, but I totally disagree with you. I believe you're intillectually "over thinking" this entire subject. I, too, am saddened to learn of your plight. However, there must be a lot more to the situation than that of you, or your wife refusing to accept "no" for an answer. Some cases of "no" can be negotiated (would you like onions in your potato salad? No.) And some shouldn't ever be brought up again once asked and refused. ( Would you allow me to engage in some deviant sexual behavior? No!) And, if an attempt to negotiate the "no" that caused alarm was repeated, then the issue becomes powerful stimulation for total disintegration of any relationship that might have been built on trust.

[dr1819]

As one who's been party to both contracts, for more than a decade, I'd have to argue otherwise.

Marriages usually decay when one party becomes less honest with themselves than the other, rather than when one party becomes less honest with the other. It's a subtle, but very important distinction.

As previously alluded, it's usually the party which becomes less honest with themselves that causes the end of the relationship, even if they're not the party that files for divorce.

The courts are a "best attempt" effort of serving public interest. They're often wrong because, quite often, neither judges nor lawyers nor court-appointed psychologists are able to pierce through the voluminous layers of deception which often surround most marital problems! In the absence of these layers of deception, one finds few marital problems. The better solution almost always involves both parties of the divorce resolving their differences and discovering ways to continue both the marriage and the family. In fact, some of the strongest individuals, emotionally/psychologically speaking, come from families which were were on the verge of divorce but managed to overcome it.

Thank you for you sentiments, though, and I mean it, from the bottom of my heart! I recently watched a heartwarming movie in which a man overcame a similarly "WTF" situation as I did. It's called Invincible, and stars Mark Whalberg. Totally inspiring!

PS, I gave up, 100%, of all heeling in 2004, with a complete and full heart and without either hesitation or reservation, in an attempt to salvage my marriage and provide for the family environment I'd desired for my son years before I ever met my wife.

She had delusions to the contrary, and delusions are something that are very difficult to counter.

[Susan (the original)]

dr1819, I won't begin to trivialize the heart ache and trauma you've experienced. Your values and beliefs are deeply set, sincere, and are to be honored. I hold you in high regard for that. I make no excuses for my defense of women. I've spent enough time in court rooms supporting abused women to last a couple lifetimes. I also fully realize that misguided, poor, cruel, or other wise unacceptable behavior is not gender specfic. I have as much compassion for a victimized man as I do a woman. Your post covers a number of thoughts including "..voluminous layers of deception which often surround most marital problems!" Looking at your recent post and the posts mentioned in the previous paragraph, I'm curious, why the double standard? This isn't the first time I've approached this and no one will get near it. We all managed to walk this thread away from the original topic. That's certainly OK with me. I said at the beginning it could wander anywhere we wanted and I meant it. Susan

[dr1819]

Thank you both, Susan and Hoverfly, for your sentiments. You're both correct in that it's never good to lie, and the only time I did was when she did a 180 and I was doing headspins trying to regain some semblence of structure and order in my life and the life of my family. It was early in 2004 that I vowed never to lie to her or deceive her in any way, but due some things stemming from her past, she never believed me again, and I strongly suspect any miscommunication came across to her as deceit. But that's not something one can fix in another person, nor should I have tried bearing that burden. The best course of action is to be honest, hope for the best, but knowing, realistically where things stand, and communicate that hope to the other. I did my best to do that, but apparently, it either wasn't enough or the other issues eclipsed my efforts along these lines. Bottom line, if you love someone, let them know in ways other than "I love you's." Take 'em out to eat, for hikes, or anything else they show an interest in doing. Rub their feet! If they come home to you, terrific. If they believe your home isn't for them, then it's time to let them go, heal (that takes a couple years, folks), and eventually, move on. I asked her again recently if she was interested, putting out more than mere "strong feelers," but her answer was clear, so I've let go. That's hard for me, as I'm very loyal, by nature. Because I do know myself, I cannot honest say that I respect my decision, particularly because of the distorted crap upon which she based her own decisions. But I can honestly say I accept some of her decisions (her leaving me, not her trying to gain sole custody). But that's fodder for a more personal discussion...

[Ozzard]

But, when I or any other woman say "NO" to behavior forced on us, that man is out of options!!!!

Quite.

Does this also apply other ways round, i.e. in a gender-neutral way? When I or any other man say "NO" to behaviour forced on us (and it does happen), is that woman or man out of options? I'd say "Yes!" but I'm interested in your views.

[JNR]

What is so difficult about this scenario? Put simply, Susan believes that when a woman, any woman, is presented with a situation that requires a choice, the woman can make her choice and have her decision respected. Now, because this scenario is couched in terms of a man giving a woman a choice of accepting his wearing high heels or not really has no bearing upon her perogeritive to say no and mean it and be free of any coercion to accept a situation she doesn't want. (And, I would argue the same for any man placed in a similar situation.)

[hoverfly]

What is so difficult about this scenario? Put simply, Susan believes that when a woman, any woman, is presented with a situation that requires a choice, the woman can make her choice and have her decision respected. Now, because this scenario is couched in terms of a man giving a woman a choice of accepting his wearing high heels or not really has no bearing upon her perogeritive to say no and mean it and be free of any coercion to accept a situation she doesn't want. (And, I would argue the same for any man placed in a similar situation.)

If it was that simple..........

I think the way children are raised though less likely today, stereotypical attitudes is a problem apishly with males. No one really has explained that equality includes women. I unknowingly carried such an attitude for many years.

Susan:

forget about the link, it took me some time to find it, the link I originally gave you did work for me the fist time around but not now, so maybe later I will look it up again and figure out a simple way to get it for you to view. Unless we can get some one else to help out........Hello??!! Moderator..........?

[Susan (the original)]

Ozzard, I appreciate your thoughts and the answer to your question is "yes". If you will read my posts (this thread) of Dec. 17, Dec. 20, Jan. 5, and Jan 15 in their entirety you will see that I've already addressed your concern. I'll look forward to your thoughts after you read those posts. JNR, I wish I had the ability of expression with words as well, with clarity, and brevity as you do. I thank you for understanding. My response to Ozzard is I think consistant with the last sentence of your post. Hoverfly, you say we have noting to fear. I know 114 women who will glady prove you wrong. The more we talk, the more we search, the more we learn, the more women find the courage to come forward. Susan