dr1819 Posted August 6, 2006 Share Posted August 6, 2006 Let's face it, folks: While Jean Paul pushed the envelope in some respects, he pushed so hard that the public backlash said "NO!" This couldn't be more clear than in his most recent efforts, accounted for here: http://men.style.com/fashion/collections/S2007MEN/review/JPGMEN Gradual change has always been accepted by humanity, while radical change has always been rejected. This is simple human nature. Anyone who fails to understand this will do more harm than good to the cause of everyone (particularly men) interested in wearing clothing that deviates from the norm to any substantial degree, regardless of whether it's heels of any size (no/low/mid/high) but of men wearing women's shoes, women's clothing (skirts, dresses, blouses, underclothes, etc.). I think we've killed the fact that women can buy anything they want in the men's section (except perhaps a jock strap) and parade downtown wearing that without anyone noticing. I'd like to get to that point with respect to men wearing women's fashion. No, not necessarily the frilly fru-fru stuff (although if that floats your boat...), but men, appearing as men (not the CD/TV/TS/TG crowd appearing as women), dressed in what I would consider masculine styled clothes. I'm simply talking about a man wearing heels and/or a skirt. I wear heels out, and get nary a whimper. I wear a skirt, and provided it's masculine enough, I get a few harmless questions and the occasional attaboy. I wear heels and a skirt out while otherwise dressed as a man, and regardless of how masculine the heels and skirt may be, it's time for the wolf-whistles, or at least the jeers, fingers pointed in my direction, and suaural comments made about my attire. Case in point: Last night. I wore a pitch-dark, black denim ankle-length skirt with a zip fly that opens to the right. I wore my men's Levi's belt. I also wore my black, long-sleeved Pierre Cardin shirt and my black leather 4-inch stack heeled knee-high boots. Although a few women asked me about the skirt, I did got jeers from some of the guys at the pub. After the first couple of seconds, though, everyone went back to talking to whoever they were talking to. When I've worn the same outfit in the past, but without the heeled boots, it's sort of a killer and many women have been interested. When I wear the boots with with black denim jeans instead of the skirt, no one bats an eye. Think about it - the only difference between my skirt and my jeans is the number of openings at the bottom. That's it. They're even made by the same manufacturer, have the same number and style of pockets, belt loops, the type of top button, even the zippers are identical. Everything's identical except one has two openings while the other has one. If I want to avoid the jeers, I can wear the jeans with heels, or the skirt without heels. But if I wear the skirt with heels, I get jeers. So, here's what's currently socially acceptable for men to wear in my neck of the woods: 1. Heels, provided they're discrete, are ok. 2. A skirt, provided it's discrete, is ok. 3. The combination, regardless of how discrete it might be, is still not ok. The old "wear whatever you like" is personal liberty at it's best, but societal responsibility at it's worst. There should be a balance between "Just do it!" and ensuring (perhaps even furthering) that others will continue to have the opportunity to wear whatever they want to wear. It takes time to change society's mind, and two things must occur for that to be effective: 1. Consistant exposure (wear 'em if you got 'em) 2. Discrete exposure (save the costumes for Mardi Gras) I'll not go out in both heels and a skirt for quite some time, but I'll continue to frequent the regular watering holes wearing one or the other. Hopefully, in time, the collective attitudes will mellow and I'll be able to appear wearing whatever I choose. If you're the type who'd prefer to "do whatever comes to mind," I would ask you to reconsider and consider the rest of us who'd like to push the envelope, but in a way which will create a lasting/permanent acceptance, rather than a jeering backlash. Slow and steady will accomplish most people's agenda, while a hurried approach will only accomplish the agenda of the hurried. By the way, I have to complement all of you who attended the London Heel-Meet, as to the last man, your style very precisely balanced men's heel wear with conservatism. Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shoe Posted August 6, 2006 Share Posted August 6, 2006 This is true but I know at least two people who do heels and skirts with seemingly no problem at all. Xaphod and Si Graduate footwear designer able to advise and assist on modification and shoe making projects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr1819 Posted August 6, 2006 Author Share Posted August 6, 2006 I've encountered absolutely zero problems while wearing skirts or heels (despite a few jeers). That's not the issue. The issue is that broad public reaction threatens to thwart societal acceptance of men wearing either skirts or heels. The only way to combat this is by gradual change. Rabid change will backfire. It always has. It always will. This isn't controversty. It's human nature. Either abide by it, or suffer the consequences. And please, consider the source of this information! I'm no government informer - I'm simply one of you. Jiminy! Look at my avatar! Folks - I can't get there from here, and I live in a very progressive country! Please don't counter my comments. Instead, take them at their face value, and act accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fog Posted August 7, 2006 Share Posted August 7, 2006 By the way, I have to complement all of you who attended the London Heel-Meet, as to the last man, your style very precisely balanced men's heel wear with conservatism. Thank you! I dressed very conservatively that day, but why shouldn't I have dressed outrageously had I wanted? That's not the issue. The issue is that broad public reaction threatens to thwart societal acceptance of men wearing either skirts or heels. The only way to combat this is by gradual change. Rabid change will backfire. Why are we trying to change society's attitudes? I really can't understand it. Wearing heels and/or skirts won't be mainstream for a long long time, you've got to accept that and enjoy it! Please don't counter my comments. Instead, take them at their face value, and act accordingly. Good grief! You sound authoritarian. The whole delight for me of wearing heels for me.... ...let's leave it there...the train to work's not going to wait for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trolldeg Posted August 7, 2006 Share Posted August 7, 2006 Sorry, I have no interest in wearing frumpy clothing or tone down who I am, just to further some "cause". I'm not going to wait to dress how I want because society isn't OK with it at the moment. If I wait for social acceptance for what I want to wear, I'll be dead, and bitter at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreeMannWorld Posted August 7, 2006 Share Posted August 7, 2006 Sorry, I have no interest in wearing frumpy clothing or tone down who I am, just to further some "cause". I'm not going to wait to dress how I want because society isn't OK with it at the moment. If I wait for social acceptance for what I want to wear, I'll be dead, and bitter at that. Yea u are right..... But i Have to agree whit Dr1819 If the Fasions world shall chance it need to be done ind steps ( From the Designers side ), ore pepole just say to hell whit it... Since its only on the catwalk! have u see whot pepole wher on the catwalk out ind poblic plase. Well i havent but the more "Normal" and a littel chance to the cloths is more the way pepole bye! But hell yea we all to do we like!!!! i hope and need a kick ind the A.s do something about NOW ((( Frist i am not good to spell ))) ..........(((( Sorry for that ))))........ .......................(",)....................... http://s112.photobucket.com/albums/n161/FreeMannWorld/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fog Posted August 7, 2006 Share Posted August 7, 2006 Since its only on the catwalk! have u see whot pepole wher on the catwalk out ind poblic plase. Well i havent Absolutely - I'd have thought designers are about selling clothes albeit hand made very high quality clothes at ridiculously expensive prices. Their shows are about getting picutres in magazines and maximum publicity. If they send a few boys down in heels and eyeliner that might or might not do the trick. It's certainly not about social responsiblilty and it's very simplistic to put the two together. In summary: 1. Heels, provided they're discrete, are ok. 2. A skirt, provided it's discrete, is ok. 3. The combination, regardless of how discrete it might be, is still not ok. The old "wear whatever you like" is personal liberty at it's best, but societal responsibility at it's worst. There should be a balance between "Just do it!" and ensuring (perhaps even furthering) that others will continue to have the opportunity to wear whatever they want to wear. It takes time to change society's mind, and two things must occur for that to be effective: 1. Consistant exposure (wear 'em if you got 'em) 2. Discrete exposure (save the costumes for Mardi Gras) I'll not go out in both heels and a skirt for quite some time, but I'll continue to frequent the regular watering holes wearing one or the other. Hopefully, in time, the collective attitudes will mellow and I'll be able to appear wearing whatever I choose. If you're the type who'd prefer to "do whatever comes to mind," I would ask you to reconsider and consider the rest of us who'd like to push the envelope, but in a way which will create a lasting/permanent acceptance, rather than a jeering backlash. Slow and steady will accomplish most people's agenda, while a hurried approach will only accomplish the agenda of the hurried. All I can say to this is How dare you! What gives you the right to set out a list of rules? Have them for yourself by all means but don't give me or the rest of the guys here a list based on your narrow minded prejudices. I go out in heels becuase its fun - not to further "the cause". I don't have common cause with you, you lay down the law for other people, and I can't accept that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GML-Mausi Posted August 7, 2006 Share Posted August 7, 2006 I guess dr1819's theory is somewhere convincing. Even here in the more conservative Nation of Germany in most ways it is a matter of "what fit's" and "what doesn't fit". Due to my not excellent English it's not that simple for me to put it into the right words. I could believe that a good combination between men's and women's fashion would be a better start for a changeing process that to put one's self all into women clothes. Lovely greetings Annika Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fog Posted August 7, 2006 Share Posted August 7, 2006 Agreed - if you want to change people's views. I don't want to change society - and whatever people on this forum say, it's not going to happen. A man wearing heels is not a usual sight - there will be jeers, but there will be compliments from open minded people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr1819 Posted August 7, 2006 Author Share Posted August 7, 2006 Sorry, I have no interest in wearing frumpy clothing or tone down who I am, just to further some "cause". I'm not going to wait to dress how I want because society isn't OK with it at the moment. If I wait for social acceptance for what I want to wear, I'll be dead, and bitter at that. More power to you, Trolldeg - be dead and bitter. I'd rather you be alive and well if we ever meet, though... Would definately be nice to say, "Hi!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver8 Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 I read this five times and I still don't get it. I wore a pitch-dark, black denim ankle-length skirt with a zip fly that opens to the right. ... Same outfit with a rather masculine (non-feminine) ankle-length skirt, So in one case you wore a skirt, but in the other case you wore a skirt. Huh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pussyinboots Posted August 18, 2006 Share Posted August 18, 2006 You will find that most (but not all) girls/ladies jeans and skirts zip up the man's way (left over right) these days. Only button ups tend to go right over left. "Good Girls keep diaries....Bad Girls just don't have the time...!:icon_twisted:" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balacau Posted August 19, 2006 Share Posted August 19, 2006 I can only speak for myself on such an issue of course. I'm pretty sure that if I ever start the "street healing" as some people call it on here; there would be alot of finger pointing, jeering and probably quite a few things thrown my way... Yes its true society wont change overnight, but things do change indeed, and not always for the better. Let me give a perfect example and you might see that even 5 years makes a difference! One of my main interests is photography, another is heavy earthmoving machines (even the smaller stuff used on roads etc). So, at the start of high school I merged the 2, now I actively go out and seek machines to get pictures of. Simple right? Well no it isn't. Five years go I could literally get any pictures I wanted without any comments, or any trouble at all. These days when I'm seen around a building site, I get abuse trown at me, dagger-style looks and people pointing. I constantly ask myself "Why do they do this to me? Am I doing something wrong here? Why cant people accept that there is more to life than sport and reality tv?" Of course there is always the fact that many people out there simply are ignorant that there are other persuits people enjoy which are different from their own.......my mom unfortauntely is one of those people! But to stop taking pictures of the heavy machinery that I grew up loving would be a crime as far as I'm concerned. I really don't care what they say to me during my rampages across Newcastle and the outer-bound suburbs. During my working life, I've developed a thick armour which shrugs these verbal assaults off as meaningless; I just continue to do what I like because I enjoy doing it. As for the heeling and wearing skirts, yes open minded people will understand, mabe comment in a polite and friendly way, and this is always encouraging. The people who laugh, shout and jeer are simply not even worth looking at, they see only what they wish to see and nothing else. I set no rules nor guidelines for anyone else's life but mine, and mine isnt perfect nor do I ever claim it will be. I have a large amount of doubt that society as a whole will ever accept men wearing high heeled boots without at least one person deciding to stick their nose in and respond in a negative fashion. This is one of the reasons why I admire the courage and boldness of some Goth groups who hang around Newcastle, the amount of abuse they get put through is astounding, and yet they soldier one. Even without talking to them, I feel like I have learned alot from how they deal with things..........well perhaps! Eh ok I'm done ranting. Close minded people who refuse to accept that people are different, lead different ways of life, and are interested in different things really bug me alot. Just imagine how boring life would be if everyone was the same, or maybe that would make these people feel more secure? Jeez the mind boggles! Is there really such a thing as "society", I'm starting to wonder about that too.... I learned the truth a long time ago, being afraid of the dark is what keeps most of us alive... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sscotty727 Posted August 19, 2006 Share Posted August 19, 2006 I can only speak for myself on such an issue of course. I'm pretty sure that if I ever start the "street healing" as some people call it on here; there would be alot of finger pointing, jeering and probably quite a few things thrown my way... Yes its true society wont change overnight, but things do change indeed, and not always for the better. Let me give a perfect example and you might see that even 5 years makes a difference! One of my main interests is photography, another is heavy earthmoving machines (even the smaller stuff used on roads etc). So, at the start of high school I merged the 2, now I actively go out and seek machines to get pictures of. Simple right? Well no it isn't. Five years go I could literally get any pictures I wanted without any comments, or any trouble at all. These days when I'm seen around a building site, I get abuse trown at me, dagger-style looks and people pointing. I constantly ask myself "Why do they do this to me? Am I doing something wrong here? Why cant people accept that there is more to life than sport and reality tv?" Of course there is always the fact that many people out there simply are ignorant that there are other persuits people enjoy which are different from their own.......my mom unfortauntely is one of those people! But to stop taking pictures of the heavy machinery that I grew up loving would be a crime as far as I'm concerned. I really don't care what they say to me during my rampages across Newcastle and the outer-bound suburbs. During my working life, I've developed a thick armour which shrugs these verbal assaults off as meaningless; I just continue to do what I like because I enjoy doing it. As for the heeling and wearing skirts, yes open minded people will understand, mabe comment in a polite and friendly way, and this is always encouraging. The people who laugh, shout and jeer are simply not even worth looking at, they see only what they wish to see and nothing else. I set no rules nor guidelines for anyone else's life but mine, and mine isnt perfect nor do I ever claim it will be. I have a large amount of doubt that society as a whole will ever accept men wearing high heeled boots without at least one person deciding to stick their nose in and respond in a negative fashion. This is one of the reasons why I admire the courage and boldness of some Goth groups who hang around Newcastle, the amount of abuse they get put through is astounding, and yet they soldier one. Even without talking to them, I feel like I have learned alot from how they deal with things..........well perhaps! Eh ok I'm done ranting. Close minded people who refuse to accept that people are different, lead different ways of life, and are interested in different things really bug me alot. Just imagine how boring life would be if everyone was the same, or maybe that would make these people feel more secure? Jeez the mind boggles! Is there really such a thing as "society", I'm starting to wonder about that too.... You have to understand, those heavy machines are probably used around construction sites. Every since 911, people are leary of someone near a construction site (or probably any building or major public place) taking pictures. The glares you are getting are people suspecious of your intent. I am sure if you first struck up conversation with the people first and let them know you and not perceive you as a threat you could probably take all the pictures you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balacau Posted August 19, 2006 Share Posted August 19, 2006 You have to understand, those heavy machines are probably used around construction sites. Every since 911, people are leary of someone near a construction site (or probably any building or major public place) taking pictures. The glares you are getting are people suspecious of your intent. I am sure if you first struck up conversation with the people first and let them know you and not perceive you as a threat you could probably take all the pictures you want. I figured that might be the case myself soon after this problem began, however from hearing such diverse excuses for such verbal abuse as "we thought you were taking pictures of the men" to "you could be working for a rival company", I'm not entirely convinced security has anything to do with it at all.... Plus we have rather strict trespassing laws here and everything is fenced off. I have always had pride in myself by not going where I shouldn't. This means that often I walk away without getting any pictures (assuming there is no-one around to ask), but its better doing this than getting arrested. Of course this won't stop me, I'll keep taking pictures because its one of the things I love to do, regardless of weather people like me rolling past a construction site with my camera or not. And if anyone asks me for proof of my interest, I can show them close to 5000 photographs I've taken over the years.... Speaking of "business as usual", it reminds me of a picture I found once, during WW2 in London, this milkman walked through bombed out streets to deliver his stuff, even during the daytime air raids. Maybe he didn't want to do that, but this sense of "this is going to be done no matter what" has always inspired me. So I guess I won't be stopping taking pictures anytime soon, and oh yeh, I've gotten a few workers into trouble when I reported their abuse to a company employee. They look at this behaviour very dimly indeed as its bad for the public image, which is one thing the construction industry here is trying desperately to improve! I learned the truth a long time ago, being afraid of the dark is what keeps most of us alive... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr1819 Posted August 19, 2006 Author Share Posted August 19, 2006 I read this five times and I still don't get it. So in one case you wore a skirt, but in the other case you wore a skirt. Huh? I don't get it either! Re-edited for clarity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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