Wheel Clampers

[dr1819]

I'm a fan of the No Parking Control System (NoParCoS, for short). It works like this: You put your dime in the meter. If you're not back on time, it physical tosses your car back into the street, end over end. Since you were parked there overtime, any and all consequences would be your fault. On the other hand, the another system also makes sense, proposed by the Uniform Bicycle Intertransit Consul (URBIC), and it would solve a number of health, energy, and parking problems!

[Dr. Shoe]

Interesting take, Dr. Shoe. Essentially they've attached their property to my property, and once I tow our property onto my real property (home/yard) any attempt by them to retrieve their property is trespassing...

But aren't you also stealing by absconding with their property? "Ok, I'll take the misdemeanor, but when I return their property with my property I'll see that misdemeanor and raise them grand theft auto."

Or aren't they committing a felony by removing your vehicle?

Or is this simply something that's now allowed, having been legislated into law because it was "in the common good?"

Here is the law. If someone without your permission comes along and attaches anything to your car then you can do what you see fit as long as this does not involve a criminal act (such as criminal damage). The reason why clamping works is because most people do not have the resources to do anything other than pay to unclamp the vehicle. Towing is legal because there are signs that clearly that the vehicle illegally parked will be clamped or towed. If there are not clear signs to that effect then they are committing a felony.

To clarify things you could clearly display a notice on your car (perhaps somewhere above each wheel so that a clamper cannot fail to see it) that anything attached to your vehicle will be considered a gift and be dealt with accordingly. if this includes a CLAMP logo they'll know better than to clmp your car. The chances are that they'll decide to tow it instead but as most parking infringements are perpitrated by people parking for a few minutes the chances are you'll be gone before the tow truck gets there.

Another point is that they cannot lift your car whilst you are siting in it.

A tow truck was parked on a double yellow line once and a member of the public chained themselves to it and refused to budge until they [the tow truck] were given a parking ticket!

[dr1819]

Now there's some nice laws! About thirty years ago I snuck onto the lot where they'd towed my car and simply drove it off. No one came after me, even though I was a resident there several more years - you can't be cited for theft of a vehicle you legally own. No can you be cited for trespassing unless you're caught in the act by eyewitnesses or camera. So, once off the lot, I was scott free, and the towers no longer had any legal recourse to exact a tow fee (nor did they try).

[Dr. Shoe]

They're wise to that around here and have high fences with security cameras, razor wire and watch towers. When you collect your car you can only get out by going through double gates where they will not open the outer gate until the inner gate is shut.

[dr1819]

Yeah - my escape was in a fairly rural area. All I had to do was unhook the chain across the entrance, and the chain wasn't even locked.

[Danielinheels]

Here's what you do, if the city had your car clamped: Pay by check. But write out a check for slightly OVER the amount. If the clamp costs $150 to remove, pay them $170 by personal check. They can't legally keep the money, so they will have to mail you a refund check. Destroy the check upon receipt. Since they will have removed the clamp in good faith, in return for your payment also in good faith, what you need to have done is done. They can't fully process the transaction until you deposit their check; if their check never clears, yours won't either. This trick also supposedly works for traffic tickets...

[Dr. Shoe]

I can see where this works for tickets where you pay by post but in the case of a clamp you are expected to pay the guy taking the clamp off or pay in person at the office. Obviously they're not going to allow you to overpay and I would say that they would only accept cash or debit card payments that can't be cancelled as soon as you leave the office...

[dr1819]

Well, Danielle's in New Orleans and Dr. Shoe's in New Orleans, so it's clear different points of the law would apply (Lousiana Law is based on French Law, quite a different thing than the English Law upon which most of the remaining states and the UK is based).

[Dr. Shoe]

Well, Danielle's in New Orleans and Dr. Shoe's in New Orleans.

No I'm not, try again!

[Guy N. Heels]

Here in the States they're usually referred to as "Denver Boots". Pesky buggers, and if you get "booted" (clamped) in Washington DC, it will usually cost you around $100. But you brought up a curious point about the boot (clamp) legally becoming the property of the car owner. Now if it's your property, you can do whatever you like with it! So what I would do under such circumstance, is have the car towed or carted to some location where I would proceed to chop the boot (clamp) to pocket-sized pieces (which would have been entirely necessary to remove it from the car) and then sell it for scrap. I'll bet money that will chill their water.

[Dr. Shoe]

Indeed, but you cannot actually remove it from your car unless they have given you permission to do so because as soon as it comes off your car ownership of the clamp reverts to them and so if it is damaged in the process, you can still get done. A better way would be to ask them to forward the keys along with $100 cash within 7 days and failure to do so would result in the clamp being removed at their expense. You could even go to their office and make the demand in person with a witness.

[dr1819]

No I'm not, try again!

Typo. I meant London!

[Dr. Shoe]

Typo. I meant London!

I know, sometimes I go to type in London and it comes out as Sevastopol!

[Guy N. Heels]

Very clearly you Brits have got some curious laws and notions about property rights. Here in the States such a curious notion of dual property rights would have to be heard before the US Supreme Court for clarification. I don't know if you have any such court of final appeal over there or not.

[dormouse]

I cold chisled one but they caught me so I had to remove the wheel instead.

While I was driving the car I had great difficulty steering as the clamped wheel would not turn.

1) Tried driving

2) Cold Chisled

3) Removed wheel

http://www.anglegrinderman.org/

This is good

[dr1819]

I thought most wheel clamps blocked access to wheel removal...

[dormouse]

That car had easy to get at wheel nuts - used a whatever size spanner in the gap and got the wheel mainly off before the clampers admitted defeat THe place was then girlfriends (now wife) work on a day they were shut

[RPMindy]

booting/clamping isn't as popular here in NY as it used to be years back. interesting thread!!! to my knowledge.. if you have back parking tickets and the city isn't in the mood to tow you.. they will boot you. I don't know about boots/clamps elsewhere.. but in NY.. the ones they use can't be cut easily unless with a plasma torch or diamond tip drill or saw. really high grade tough steel they use (or some metal like it). forget trying to drive off with it or dragging it... requires too much horsepower due to it's bulk (the old ones you could force the issue and slide it along). but now, they just tow you out (no matter how tightly you're parked). they will drag the car out into the open then lift it and go! i would be highly annoyed to get booted(clamped). no one i know has had that happen to them.. but in terms of illegal parking in front of a business. they tow you and you deal with the tow company. i don't think they boot folks anymore unless they ran out of parking and coming after you for backdue parking tickets. and they know your car is parked by your house at the time they came for the car.. then they'll boot it because it's by or on your property. but if they find the car anywhere else.. they'll just tow it. RPM

[Dr. Shoe]

I think it's a dying trade here in the UK too. They just find out where you live and send the boys round!

[micha]

In Germany putting a clamp on a foreign vehicle is a punishable act. If your car is parking directly in front of a private entrance the owner has to call the police. The police will order a wrecking service and you have to pay the cost of the wrecking and an additional ticket to the police. That's really expensive. But putting a clamp on the wheels of a wrong parking car could be much more expensive. It could be considered as intimidation. Any act of self-justice is forbidden in Germany. If you were parking correctly it could be very expensive for the clamper! Naturally it's your good right to use a bolt cutter. You need not to care about the damage. Opposite, you have even yourself a claim for damages. micha

[Guy N. Heels]

In Germany putting a clamp on a foreign vehicle is a punishable act. If your car is parking directly in front of a private entrance the owner has to call the police. The police will order a wrecking service and you have to pay the cost of the wrecking and an additional ticket to the police...micha

THAT I can relate to. Knock off all the double-think about clamping the car and whose property belongs to whom and all that rot. Just make it illegal for anyone to touch your private property unless it's by a court-order. If the vehicle is causing problems then call the cops and let them sort it out. Then if the cops muck it up - at least you have a badge number and someplace to start.

[dr1819]

Of course, if you're quick about it, while the guy in the two truck is clamping your car for parking illegally, you can clamp his for doing the same! At least you'd had a bargaining chip.

[Dr. Shoe]

That car had easy to get at wheel nuts - used a whatever size spanner in the gap and got the wheel mainly off before the clampers admitted defeat

THe place was then girlfriends (now wife) work on a day they were shut

Yes this is easier on older cars that have nuts but newer cars tend to have bolts that have to come out about 1.5" before releasing the wheel.

[Dr. Shoe]

Of course, if you're quick about it, while the guy in the two truck is clamping your car for parking illegally, you can clamp his for doing the same!

At least you'd had a bargaining chip.

A guy once chained himself to a clamper's lorry that was illegally parked and refused to unlock himself until they were given a ticket.

[Guy N. Heels]

A guy once chained himself to a clamper's lorry that was illegally parked and refused to unlock himself until they were given a ticket.

RIGHT ON!!! I hope the Queen knighted him or something!

[Dr. Shoe]

Should have!

[dr1819]

Any act of self-justice is forbidden in Germany.

micha

What about self-defence? If a guy attacks me, am I supposed to just attempt to run away (not a bad strategy, by the way, especially if you're a good runner). But what if it's in my own home? Do I have the right to protect my own property? Do I even have the right to protect myself? If so, by what means and to what extent?

These are some questions no one's ever raised before with respect to my being in Germany!

In the states, the right to self defence is pretty much a given in all 50 states, but the means and the extent do vary. In some states, if someone walks into your house uninvited, you could legally shoot and kill and merely say "his uninvited presence in my house was in itself very threatening" and you'd be exonerated, unless the prosecution could prove you somehow invited him or let him in (merely opening a door after a knock or doorbell is neither inviting someone in or letting them in).

In other states, however, unless you could prove imminent danger from an intruder, such as a loaded gun or knive the intruder had on their person at the time you shot them, they could rule it as manslaughter.

About the only time any state would rule your shooting another person in your own home to be murder is if you invited/let them in, the prosecution proved there was no danger to you, and you killed the other person anyway. The key thing is the element of danger. If you kill someone you invited in, you had better be prepared to show signs of a struggle!

[Dawn HH]

Dr1819:-) I think that that could be easily arranged. Cheers--- Dawn HH

[Guy N. Heels]

Lessee here, it seems to me that we've gone from wheel clamping to murder on this thread. Somebody's gotta be off-topic. As much as I both want and need my car - it's not worth someone's life! Anybody that wants my bucket of bolts that badly can have it. I can always find another set of wheels for a few hundred dollars. BTW - that's one advantage of driving a rust bucket. If the clampers are really tring to take you to the cleaners you can always let 'em keep the car. Especially if it's cheaper to do so. (Don't forget that posession is 9 points of the law.) Then you assert the 10th point (ownership) and call the cops and charge 'em with Grand Theft Auto - a felony that's almost guaranteed to land 'em in jail.

[dr1819]

Francis really came up with a good one for this topic - it's been most enjoyable.

Yes, I can see someone charging a wheel clamper for grand theft auto. All they would have to do is prove that the clamper denied rightful access for any significant period of time (under US law).

It would be an interesting trick, however, to run it through the courts, which are prone to give wheel clampers the benefit of the doubt. One would have to prove they were legitimately parked.