Size 12 and 13 US Women - Missing Market Niche!

[dr1819]

I think that Silhouette deserves a round of applause as well for their financial support. APPLAUSE.

Also, I think forum members should periodically click on Silhouette's link on the home page and check out the products they carry. You might find something interesting. They've added over 100 items since April.

Silhouette's link can be found at the top of http://hhplace.org/. Go there and click on their name.

Applause!

However, for a site devoted to heeling, on which the vast majority of wearers are men, I was disappointed to find that Silhouette's sizes, for the most part, stopped at 41, with only a very few items to a 43.

There's a dichotomy. Either it's a mainstream shoe outlet which caters to women's sizes (and they ignore the needs of larger-footed women), or it's a fetish shop with plastic "leathers" and heel heights beginning at 5 inches (rarely at 4 inches).

WHEN are the shoe outlets going to realize there are a LOT of people, mostly women, but quite a few men, who are looking for size 12 and 13 US Women's heels in NORMAL styles?

I've seen a few fashion articles online recently that point to the fact that for size 8s, manufacturers make approximately 30% more than they think they'll sell, for no other reason than to achieve full market exposure (women won't buy the shoe if you're out of them).

At the same time, however, they make just 10% more for size 9s, are at 0% more for size 10s, and make 30% less for size 11s.

For size 12s, the number is just half of what they think would sell!

For size 13s, it goes up to about 4 times less.

These are for mainstream, not fetish shoes.

WHY???

The actual numbers that would sell in these upper ranges are very minimal compared to how many additional shoes they make in size 8. For example, if they cut the 30% overage for the 6.5 tyo 8.5 range to just 25%, they would have enough excess material and labor to manufacturer 100% of all shoes that would be expected to sell in the 11, 12, and 13 range.

And they would be covering 85% of all men's heel sizes, too!

[Bubba136]

Even small cities usually have 3 or more stores that sell women's shoes (not to mention stores that sell just women's sneakers). Just project that number throughout the entire state of Georgia or South Carolina and thats a huge number of stores. Now, try to imagin how many of those stores sell heels to men. Probably not more than one in every 20. That's 5%, if we're lucky. Companies don't make major financial decisions on just 5% of projected market. They would have to make each model they offer in the larger sizes and stock them in all of their stores in order to cover the entire market. A process that wouldn't be cost effective from a bean counters point of view. Men, like women, won't routinely purchase shoes from any store where they have to be ordered (shoes for special occasions being the exception). Based on pure financial return, I don't think I would look for sizes larger than 12 or possibly 13 -- including sizes in wider widths -- in the majority of stores any time soon. I have noticed that Sexy Shoes has offered more models and styles in larger sizes in their latest catalog (that we received just a couple of days ago). For the present, you guys that wear larger sizes will just have to be happy trying to find shoes that fit to buy on the internet..... ...

[dr1819]

My point wasn't that manufacturers would select heel-wearing males as a target market. My point is twofold: First, they're currently undermanufacturing the women's market for size 12 and 13 heels by a factor of approximately 350%, (only 1 in 3 or 4 women finding a shoe in size 12/13) according to various fashion marketing data. Second, size 12/13 heel-wearing women outnumber size 12/13 heel-wearing males by many times. Combine these two points and it's clear that if they simply manufacturered an appropriate number of heels for the larger markets, the women who wear 12/13 US would benefit every bit as much as the men who wear the same size.

[Bubba136]

That might be the case from the way you look at the issue. However, I would bet that there is only 1 woman in 20 that wears a size 12 or 13 shoe. It would be financial suicide for a shoe manufacturer to have to make all styles and models they present in quantities equal to the quantities they make of size 8 or 9. Another issue is that I see size 12 or 13 high heels, even in extra wide witdths, here where I live because there is a large number of ethnic taller or larger women located here. This is the case with all of the villages and cities here in the south that have large ethnic populations. Larger customers, larger sizes....not only in Shoes but all ladies garmets.

[dr1819]

It's actually not the way "I" look at the market, but it's actually stats I compiled from the fashion industry. Like Friday said, "Just the facts, Ma'am."

[Dr. Shoe]

When a vendor buys a carton of 12 pairs they will get (UK sizes): 1 pair 3, 2 pairs 4, 3 pairs 5, 3 pairs 6, 2 pairs 7 and 1 pair of 8s. Now, when the shoes go on the sale rack, you will see about 8 pairs of 4s, 6 pairs of 6s, 1 pair of 7s and you will be hard pressed to buy an 8. This means that all the 8s sold and only a few pairs of 4s sold. Most 3s will have been bought by precocious 9 year olds of course. This illustrates that far from amking 30% more than will sell in size 8, they don't make enough. Moreover, when a customer comes in and asks whether a style is available in a 9 or a 10 and it isn't the assistant thinks to themselves "Fancy that, someone asking for a pair in a size we don't carry!" and instead of logging it or telling the manager, they think nothing more of it. If every manager of every store that had customers asking for larger sizes told head office then they would realise that there is a demand for them.

[dr1819]

Bingo, Dr. Shoe. You've hit the nail on the head - the shoe manufacturers have a very thin idea with respect to demand by shoe size, primarily due to the lack of feedback from the stores. But it's also due to the lack of pre-sale market analysis.

[Skirted-UK]

When a vendor buys a carton of 12 pairs they will get (UK sizes): 1 pair 3, 2 pairs 4, 3 pairs 5, 3 pairs 6, 2 pairs 7 and 1 pair of 8s.

Now, when the shoes go on the sale rack, you will see about 8 pairs of 4s, 6 pairs of 6s, 1 pair of 7s and you will be hard pressed to buy an 8.

This means that all the 8s sold and only a few pairs of 4s sold. Most 3s will have been bought by precocious 9 year olds of course.

This illustrates that far from amking 30% more than will sell in size 8, they don't make enough. Moreover, when a customer comes in and asks whether a style is available in a 9 or a 10 and it isn't the assistant thinks to themselves "Fancy that, someone asking for a pair in a size we don't carry!" and instead of logging it or telling the manager, they think nothing more of it. If every manager of every store that had customers asking for larger sizes told head office then they would realise that there is a demand for them.

I have found the same thing with skirts. When shops like M&S bring out a new line in skirts they have the full range of sizes to start with, but if you go back in a couple of weeks time you will find that all the large sizes have gone. When it eventually comes to the stage when the skirts go to clearance sale there is only 8's and 10's left. I have often wondered why they don't order more larger sizes if they sell so well !

[Dr. Shoe]

I think that much of the blame lies in the fact that to buy shoes wholesale you have to buy a carton. If the size distribution properly reflected modern trends then that would not be a problem but if the retailer were allowed to order the size mix they wanted then we would start to see fewer small sizes and more larger sizes on the sale racks, even the occassional 9 or 10.

[dr1819]

I've never had any problem buying larger sized skirts. It's acceptable throughout the fashion world that ladies have larger than usual waists. It's far less acceptable that ladies have larger than usual feet.

[Bubba136]

Dr, Shoe wrote:

If every manager of every store that had customers asking for larger sizes told head office then they would realise that there is a demand for them.

And, dr1819 reinforced that idea with:

Bingo, Dr. Shoe. You've hit the nail on the head - the shoe manufacturers have a very thin idea with respect to demand by shoe size, primarily due to the lack of feedback from the stores.

Operating a chain of retail outlets in these days of intense competition, thin profit margins and ever changing material and distribution costs, is managerially difficult, to say the least. The practice of using standardized management and personnel policies and practices, along with streamlining standard operating procedures to track inventories and sales, has been found to be most cost efficient way to operate any large successful business. Just look at Wal-Mart, for example.

And, like a big ship, it takes a long time to change it's direction. sometimes, however, changing their inventory takes a lot more than just feedback from customers asking for size adjustments, although that's usually the place it starts. It is easier, for example,r for a merchant to add a completely new line of merchandise -- adding another brand of cereal or beer is a accomplished a lot more quickly and easily than requiring a brewery to produce non-standard 1½ quart containers of their product because the new "nonstandard" size would not only involve designing a new container, modifying the machinery to make it, and creating and establishing new shipping and storage templets.

Affecting sizes is normally extremely expensive, time consuming and is usually just not sufficiently financially rewarding for a retailer to undertake. One company, however -- the Leslie Shoe Company, Inc. (AKA: Sexy Shoes) has apparently been sensative to their "customers wants, needs" and requests because they have added models that go up to U.S. Woman's 16, wide into their stock. I have been dealing with this company for more than 10 years. And, I've noticed a steady increase in the sizes they offer for sale over the past 5" years or so. From a size 12 to 13, to 14, and just recently, to include size 15 and 16. So, it's "doable." And, I'm sure that these sizes were added only after it became clear that offering them would be profitable -- not only for them but also for their suppliers (read manfacturers) to cover the cost of retooling the existing production process to supply the product.

However, for most women's shoe outlets that sell 99.9% of their stock to women, it's "gonna" take a lot of insistance (read "feedback") from customers to get corporate manager's attention and then a lot of hope they can "crack the code and see what some of their customers really want. So, let's hope sales people began to forward our comments to the higher ups in their corporate chain of command with the chance they just might be noticed and acted upon.

http://www.sexyshoes.com/s16.html

[dr1819]

"Affecting sizes is normally extremely expensive, time consuming and is usually just not sufficiently financially rewarding for a retailer to undertake." And yet, year after year, the fashion moguls parade men in either skirts or heels across the stage. Hmm...

[Bubba136]

and yes, another good way of attracting attention is by shoving sparklers up your bottom and blowing smoke rings out your ears. It works every time :rofl:

[dr1819]

Yes... And plenty of laughs, too! Still, I agree with you that if EVERY time a woman or man looking for a larger size simply dropped a note saying, "I tried buying x brand, y model, in size z from your store, but no luck! I'm going elsewhere," I GUARANTEE you that all stores would be stocking all models through a 13... It's just statistics... And the incredible lack of feedback from customers.

[RPMindy]

i think the issue is that sometimes the big companies don't react to what they see as small population fluctuations as if they were major trends. if they know that in a given market, there will be interest in larger tall heels for a long period of the fashion trend, they would supply it. but if not, the won't bother. i've heard a guy who sell heels say when he was closing shop, there is not the demand on thinks for larger sized heels. most feedback he got from asking, the women who responded had comments like they're already tall and they only buy heels if their men are into it for bedroom purposes. another one i've heard from a different source, larger footed women tend to be a little heavier than smaller footed ones and dont' find the same ease in the heights to warrant demand. (this one i had a harder time swallowing, but the source was a bean counter) so, yes, more a demand is out there, but not for the same 'extreme' in heights. my lady does complain that she has a hard time finding her size. she's a 9.5 US. very hard to find, especially in the taller heels. most stores tell her that the demand for heels come from short petite women who wear size 6 to 8. I see the same online. Most of my friends with larger size feet are also taller and some even heavier. they don't want to be too tall and don't see the need to be perched in high heels. my 'short' freinds are heavily into heels but they're all like a size 7. So, a company won't expand unless the see a sustained interest, not a periodic interest. they only see the bottom line. the shoe is just the means to make the dollar. Lastly, in my neck of the woods, finding heels is really hard. most of the places with nice fashion cater to caucasian women who aren't into high heels that much. more into the cute flats and flip-flops. that is what you see a lot in all sizes in the stores. plus, they seem to run smaller sizes. in some parts of where my girlfriend lives, there is a huge ethinic population that is 'addicted' to heels. their stores are filled with all kinds of 'funky' heels of all extreme heights that fits the taste of the population. My lady and I love more classic cut courts, so we have to shop around until we find a place and then, look hard to find the size. sometimes she settles for a 10. she says it depends on where she shops. RPM

[Bubba136]

I think RPMindy said what I said only better. Unless our population can demonstrate that they are really a significant force, we're out of luck. (Im not, but the larger size wearers are!!!)

[RPMindy]

I talked about this topic to my girlfriend again. she said that they don't stock enough and they don't seem to hold the heights that she's looking for. she didn't put out a theory about it, but said it can be trick. she thinks it's because most companies don't realize that the most popular size has shifted way up from size 7. the really cute or sophisticated designs sell out fast. however, some sections of town do carry sufficient shoes, but they cycle through styles more slowly. she feels because the demand i high but the supply side is not responding. she said she'd not go shopping much my way because the selection is geared more for the smaller feet out there. so, basically she agrees with me. her sister is a size and a half smaller but man she owns more shoes than she has room to store. but she's not into heels above 3.5 inch. but man she buys like there is no tomorrow. sometimes only wearing a pair twice before giving it away!!!! but she never runs out of options. RPM

[dr1819]

so, yes, more a demand is out there, but not for the same 'extreme' in heights. my lady does complain that she has a hard time finding her size. she's a 9.5 US. very hard to find, especially in the taller heels.

RPM

I dunno... A Zappos search on 9.5 US Womens for heels 2-3/4 and up turned up approximately 5,000 hits! I know most manufacturers raised the top size in the last two years from 10 US to 11 US, and I've seen this reflected throughout a number of online stores from JC Penney to Coldwater Creek, even Victoria's Secret, which usually caters to a more petite crowd.

They're responding - just not enough!

[vector]

I'm beginning to think that the manufacturers aren't as blind or dumb as we think, and the demand, though growing slowly, isn't as large as we believe. If that were the case, you wouldn't be able to buy any Newport News, Fredericks or Victoria Secrets heel in larger sizes during their clearance sales and Sexy Shoes (the high heel specialty store in the states) would have stores all across the country (or world for that matter). Sorry folks, the demand isn't there.

[Bubba136]

I see the market for larger size shoes the same way, vector.

[dr1819]

I really have to disagree, folks.

In a recent fashion article I read (sorry, but I lost the link), was researched and written by a fashion expert, who discussed the market spread for heels within the normal size ranges (8.5 +/-1), the larger ranges (10-11), and the much larger sizes (12+).

The findings were pretty clear, that there's usually overstock for the normal ranges(20% overage), understock for the larger ranges (1/2 the demand), and gross understock for the much larger sizes (1/4 the demand).

I like your comment, Bubba, about the fact that there's oversock in the larger sizes at all. When you look at what styles are offered in the larger sizes compared to the normal sizes, I just cannot believe that any overstock is the result of lack of demand, but rather, the lack of demand for the styles that are offered.

What's telling is that the styles that are offered in the normal sizes, the styles I find most attractive for my tastes, are very rarely offered in larger sizes.

Most of the larger styles are what I would consider antiquated, stuffy, or fetish - certainly not what most larger-footed women would want to wear (they're usually younger, and so would go after the younger tastes!

Examples of what some of the newer styles are that are available in smaller sizes, but not larger ones:

[Shafted]

My own experience with online shoe vendors is that the larger sizes do seem to sell out first.

[Bubba136]

You're correct Dr.1819 in your comment that "Most of the larger styles are what I would consider antiquated, stuffy, or fetish - certainly not what most larger-footed women would want to wear." Now, the only way to change this is to inundate manufactures with requests to offer their best selling styles in larger sizes until they get the message. It's the only way. (plus also convincing retailers to carry larger sizes when they become available. )

[vector]

It's mind boggling that manufacturers and retailers would miss this market opportunity!